Deleted
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January 1970
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Yes or No, by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 22:35:14 GMT 1, It's a yes from me, but I'm Welsh and would vote yes if Wales were in similar position, But as jonny says will they financially cope? Do they get all the oil money?? A lot of small countries struggle but some thrive ie.New Zealand? The whole world economy is f*cked and will be for a while.. I would like to see Scotland succeed if its a yes.. I have been living in OZ for years and not upto speed with british politics but who's this ed milliband fella? Seems a right a bell end!!
New Zealand is an exceptionally beautiful country, but has its challenges.
It's a yes from me, but I'm Welsh and would vote yes if Wales were in similar position, But as jonny says will they financially cope? Do they get all the oil money?? A lot of small countries struggle but some thrive ie.New Zealand? The whole world economy is f*cked and will be for a while.. I would like to see Scotland succeed if its a yes.. I have been living in OZ for years and not upto speed with british politics but who's this ed milliband fella? Seems a right a bell end!! I'm from sunny South Wales rather than North. I now live in North East England. If it was Wales I would vote No. I spent almost 12 months in New zealand 10 years ago, just outside Auckland. High unemployment, high suicide rate, violent gang crime, and a lot disaffected / disenfranchised Maori, particularly young men. New Zealand is an exceptionally beautiful country, but has its challenges. |
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Yes or No
Sept 17, 2014 22:38:56 GMT 1
via mobile
Yes or No, by Jeezuz Jones Snr on Sept 17, 2014 22:38:56 GMT 1, It's a yes from me, but I'm Welsh and would vote yes if Wales were in similar position, But as jonny says will they financially cope? Do they get all the oil money?? A lot of small countries struggle but some thrive ie.New Zealand? The whole world economy is f*cked and will be for a while.. I would like to see Scotland succeed if its a yes.. I have been living in OZ for years and not upto speed with british politics but who's this ed milliband fella? Seems a right a bell end!! ย I'm from sunny South Wales rather than North. I now live in North East England. If it was Wales I would vote No. I spent almost 12 months in New zealand 10 years ago, just outside Auckland. High unemployment, high suicide rate, violent gang crime, and a lot disaffected / disenfranchised Maori, particularly young men. New Zealand is an exceptionally beautiful country, but has its challenges.
The NZ economy is doing well a present, every country has problems with crime etc.. And as I said the world economy is knackered and unemoyment is rising, looks like even Australia's luck may run out..
It's a yes from me, but I'm Welsh and would vote yes if Wales were in similar position, But as jonny says will they financially cope? Do they get all the oil money?? A lot of small countries struggle but some thrive ie.New Zealand? The whole world economy is f*cked and will be for a while.. I would like to see Scotland succeed if its a yes.. I have been living in OZ for years and not upto speed with british politics but who's this ed milliband fella? Seems a right a bell end!! ย I'm from sunny South Wales rather than North. I now live in North East England. If it was Wales I would vote No. I spent almost 12 months in New zealand 10 years ago, just outside Auckland. High unemployment, high suicide rate, violent gang crime, and a lot disaffected / disenfranchised Maori, particularly young men. New Zealand is an exceptionally beautiful country, but has its challenges. The NZ economy is doing well a present, every country has problems with crime etc.. And as I said the world economy is knackered and unemoyment is rising, looks like even Australia's luck may run out.. |
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dotdot
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 3,658
๐๐ป 1,030
December 2006
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Yes or No, by dotdot on Sept 17, 2014 22:44:01 GMT 1, Brian Souter.
If you have the vote read about this person.
Brian Souter.
If you have the vote read about this person.
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elwheel
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,912
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September 2008
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Yes or No
Sept 17, 2014 23:21:48 GMT 1
via mobile
Yes or No, by elwheel on Sept 17, 2014 23:21:48 GMT 1, The rally and campaign activity doesn't seem to reflect the wafer-thin margins published in most of the polls - a lot of Scottish tweeters and social-media are wondering where the 'No's are as they haven't encountered anything like a 50/50 split in their workplace and communities. Maybe that's me choosing to believe what I want to believe. I hope its a YES, and as an Irish republican, I hope there is a domino effect.
The rally and campaign activity doesn't seem to reflect the wafer-thin margins published in most of the polls - a lot of Scottish tweeters and social-media are wondering where the 'No's are as they haven't encountered anything like a 50/50 split in their workplace and communities. Maybe that's me choosing to believe what I want to believe. I hope its a YES, and as an Irish republican, I hope there is a domino effect.
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Yes or No, by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 23:23:43 GMT 1, Will it really be so different if its yes?, its not like there's a wall going up from west to east with armed guards, not like Scotland is going to be totally self sufficient really, like a kid leaving home but still expecting his parents to help out for the rest of his life. When's the vote anyhow?.
Central to this discussion is the uncertainty (of what will actually happen) in voting for independence. Not that, that alone is a good enough reason not to go for it.
Will it really be so different if its yes?, its not like there's a wall going up from west to east with armed guards, not like Scotland is going to be totally self sufficient really, like a kid leaving home but still expecting his parents to help out for the rest of his life. When's the vote anyhow?. Central to this discussion is the uncertainty (of what will actually happen) in voting for independence. Not that, that alone is a good enough reason not to go for it. |
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Morfx
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,873
๐๐ป 3,101
May 2013
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Yes or No, by Morfx on Sept 18, 2014 0:43:38 GMT 1, Will it really be so different if its yes?, its not like there's a wall going up from west to east with armed guards, not like Scotland is going to be totally self sufficient really, like a kid leaving home but still expecting his parents to help out for the rest of his life. When's the vote anyhow?. Today... 18th.. Cant wait until we get the proper news back..
This kinda sucks..
Will it really be so different if its yes?, its not like there's a wall going up from west to east with armed guards, not like Scotland is going to be totally self sufficient really, like a kid leaving home but still expecting his parents to help out for the rest of his life. When's the vote anyhow?. Today... 18th.. Cant wait until we get the proper news back..
This kinda sucks..
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johnnyh
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 4,492
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March 2011
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Yes or No, by johnnyh on Sept 18, 2014 0:49:28 GMT 1, I'm from sunny South Wales rather than North. I now live in North East England. If it was Wales I would vote No. I spent almost 12 months in New zealand 10 years ago, just outside Auckland. High unemployment, high suicide rate, violent gang crime, and a lot disaffected / disenfranchised Maori, particularly young men. New Zealand is an exceptionally beautiful country, but has its challenges. The NZ economy is doing well a present, every country has problems with crime etc.. And as I said the world economy is knackered and unemoyment is rising, looks like even Australia's luck may run out..
what Salmon is proposing will not have control over its own economy as Scotland has no central bank. Technically it also cannot have even the euro without its own central bank.
it will either have the pound and report to the BofE. Or it can try and create a Scottish pound and tie it to the pound but it's value will still be dependant on the BofE.
if Scotland and Salmon were serious he would have done a deal for independence in 10 years and built the institutions it needs to be successfully independant as it is possible. He has not done this as the concept is too long for his political career. That's why my worry with independence will work for a short time but all the daft costs to support it will come back and bite the average working man on the arse later.
i have no great angst yes or no just think it's actually a political con
I'm from sunny South Wales rather than North. I now live in North East England. If it was Wales I would vote No. I spent almost 12 months in New zealand 10 years ago, just outside Auckland. High unemployment, high suicide rate, violent gang crime, and a lot disaffected / disenfranchised Maori, particularly young men. New Zealand is an exceptionally beautiful country, but has its challenges. The NZ economy is doing well a present, every country has problems with crime etc.. And as I said the world economy is knackered and unemoyment is rising, looks like even Australia's luck may run out.. NZ has it's own Central bank and therefore control of its own economy.whether good or bad is their decision and their economy. what Salmon is proposing will not have control over its own economy as Scotland has no central bank. Technically it also cannot have even the euro without its own central bank. it will either have the pound and report to the BofE. Or it can try and create a Scottish pound and tie it to the pound but it's value will still be dependant on the BofE. if Scotland and Salmon were serious he would have done a deal for independence in 10 years and built the institutions it needs to be successfully independant as it is possible. He has not done this as the concept is too long for his political career. That's why my worry with independence will work for a short time but all the daft costs to support it will come back and bite the average working man on the arse later. i have no great angst yes or no just think it's actually a political con |
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me7777
New Member
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January 2011
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Yes or No, by me7777 on Sept 18, 2014 1:11:26 GMT 1, I will be voting YES today! :-)
I will be voting YES today! :-)
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me7777
New Member
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January 2011
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Yes or No, by me7777 on Sept 18, 2014 1:21:57 GMT 1, It'll be no but it wouldn't shock me if it was yes.
It'll be no but it wouldn't shock me if it was yes. It will be yes! |
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me7777
New Member
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January 2011
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Yes or No, by me7777 on Sept 18, 2014 1:26:42 GMT 1, As a print??? As a debate?? I should get that fabric made into some knickers for the missus...  I'm interested in what you think about an independant scottland. The press and politics in germany are somewhat concerend about it. They're afraid that more countries could leave the EU. Scotland has no plans to leave EU!
As a print??? As a debate?? I should get that fabric made into some knickers for the missus... I'm interested in what you think about an independant scottland. The press and politics in germany are somewhat concerend about it. They're afraid that more countries could leave the EU. Scotland has no plans to leave EU! |
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me7777
New Member
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January 2011
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Yes or No, by me7777 on Sept 18, 2014 1:33:40 GMT 1, I think a percentage of the yes voters may well change their mind when they are faced with the ballot paper in front of them. Scotland doesn't get a bad deal at the moment as far as I can see.
Scotland only gets around 80% of the money it contributes to UK, I would prefer we had 100%.
I think a percentage of the yes voters may well change their mind when they are faced with the ballot paper in front of them. Scotland doesn't get a bad deal at the moment as far as I can see. Scotland only gets around 80% of the money it contributes to UK, I would prefer we had 100%. |
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me7777
New Member
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January 2011
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Yes or No, by me7777 on Sept 18, 2014 1:40:40 GMT 1, Sick to the back teeth of the whining. If you don't want in, then f**k off. But be careful what you wish for.
Sick to the back teeth of the whining. If you don't want in, then f**k off. But be careful what you wish for. Bye then! |
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me7777
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 433
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January 2011
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Yes or No, by me7777 on Sept 18, 2014 1:49:49 GMT 1, Independence seems to be something that Scotland has fought and striven for throughout its history. They defied Roman imperialism and only after much conflict did their Anglo-roman descendants finally suppress though never truly conquer our indomitable neighbors to the north. Also I wonder how much of this is about oil, isn't Scotland rich in the stuff, who owns all that North Sea oil? I spoke to a chap last week, on the north east coast of England, he had remarried and retired there. Up until a few years ago, he had lived in Glasgow all his life. He told me he was not going to get a vote due to not being resident. Lots of Scot's are not resident for so many reasons - the armed forces, work commitments, kids, elderly parents etc. Yet those who are not Scots, yet live in Scotland do get to vote, which may seem fair, but some people have hardly been there any time at all. I can see how this seems the most logical and fairest approach, but it just doesn't sit quite right with me.
Google Clare Ridge, that's a good place to start or perhaps read the McCrone Report and see what was hidden for 40years.
Independence seems to be something that Scotland has fought and striven for throughout its history. They defied Roman imperialism and only after much conflict did their Anglo-roman descendants finally suppress though never truly conquer our indomitable neighbors to the north. Also I wonder how much of this is about oil, isn't Scotland rich in the stuff, who owns all that North Sea oil? I spoke to a chap last week, on the north east coast of England, he had remarried and retired there. Up until a few years ago, he had lived in Glasgow all his life. He told me he was not going to get a vote due to not being resident. Lots of Scot's are not resident for so many reasons - the armed forces, work commitments, kids, elderly parents etc. Yet those who are not Scots, yet live in Scotland do get to vote, which may seem fair, but some people have hardly been there any time at all. I can see how this seems the most logical and fairest approach, but it just doesn't sit quite right with me. Yes Cai there's loads of oil, loads of new discoveries not getting reported by UK media, I wonder why? Google Clare Ridge, that's a good place to start or perhaps read the McCrone Report and see what was hidden for 40years. |
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me7777
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 433
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January 2011
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Yes or No, by me7777 on Sept 18, 2014 2:08:19 GMT 1, www.woodreview.co.uk/big slab of .pdf link regarding the oil - its the Wood review on Scotch reserves - theres not a massive amount left, all things considered I cant imagine anyone wanting to read it, but you never know
What's not mentioned is the other 100yrs of oil west of Shetland and west coast of Scotland.
Are you aware of Ian Woods investment in Fracking which wouldn't get licences in independent Scotland.
I've had my eyes opened last few months, it's not what media report in this country that's important it's what they don't report! Do your research online, it's all there but not being reported!
www.woodreview.co.uk/big slab of .pdf link regarding the oil - its the Wood review on Scotch reserves - theres not a massive amount left, all things considered I cant imagine anyone wanting to read it, but you never know Ian Wood - reported in Feb there was 24Billion barrels in North Sea then changed his mind in Aug saying there only 16billion barrels, North Sea Oil will only last another 40 years, what a disaster! What's not mentioned is the other 100yrs of oil west of Shetland and west coast of Scotland. Are you aware of Ian Woods investment in Fracking which wouldn't get licences in independent Scotland. I've had my eyes opened last few months, it's not what media report in this country that's important it's what they don't report! Do your research online, it's all there but not being reported! |
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Yes or No, by Deleted on Sept 18, 2014 2:16:56 GMT 1, Of course there's another discussion to be had about moving away from oil to renewables ...
Of course there's another discussion to be had about moving away from oil to renewables ...
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doctor
New Member
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September 2012
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Yes or No, by doctor on Sept 18, 2014 2:18:55 GMT 1, It's not going to happen.
But if it does, my USD bid for prints from you strong currency bastards will look a lot better.
It's not going to happen.
But if it does, my USD bid for prints from you strong currency bastards will look a lot better.
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me7777
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 433
๐๐ป 299
January 2011
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Yes or No, by me7777 on Sept 18, 2014 7:36:50 GMT 1, 
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Hubble Bubble
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 4,117
๐๐ป 3,567
December 2010
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Yes or No, by Hubble Bubble on Sept 18, 2014 7:58:56 GMT 1, me7777 - I wish you wellโฆ truly I do. It's a hugely exciting point in the history of a great nation.
me7777 - I wish you wellโฆ truly I do. It's a hugely exciting point in the history of a great nation.
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johnnyh
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 4,492
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March 2011
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Yes or No, by johnnyh on Sept 18, 2014 8:01:40 GMT 1, Me7777 I do wish you luck with it...but what will the currency be and who will be Scotland's Central bank or are you not going to have one?
Me7777 I do wish you luck with it...but what will the currency be and who will be Scotland's Central bank or are you not going to have one?
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Hubble Bubble
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 4,117
๐๐ป 3,567
December 2010
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Yes or No, by Hubble Bubble on Sept 18, 2014 8:03:26 GMT 1, ^^ who cares with all that oil, Johnny?! It's got to be alrightโฆ
โฆ hasn't it?
^^ who cares with all that oil, Johnny?! It's got to be alrightโฆ
โฆ hasn't it?
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me7777
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 433
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January 2011
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johnnyh
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 4,492
๐๐ป 2,102
March 2011
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Yes or No, by johnnyh on Sept 18, 2014 9:10:19 GMT 1, Ah post the doc that's the problem no one has answer to currency and central bank
Actually it doesn't in this doc either!! it just says the ยฃ is a fully trade able currency so anyone can use it. This is true. So Scotland could just carry on using the pound. Eg there will be some sort of money a currency.
However without a Central bank and a currency it can neither control the value of the currency and nor will will it be realistically able to under pin it's own borrowing on the world market. It will need to borrow.
So with paying high interest rates on it's borrowing if anyone will lend money to a country which in affect does not have a bank account. it will basically end up economically like some one using pay day wonga loans. This will not have a great immediate effect as I said earlier it will take time before it spirals out of control but it will do which is why I worry for the average working man.
it will be like the Greek economy. Salmon will be able to hide it for awhile but it will appear down the road. Things could end up in a shocking state.
Ah post the doc that's the problem no one has answer to currency and central bank
Actually it doesn't in this doc either!! it just says the ยฃ is a fully trade able currency so anyone can use it. This is true. So Scotland could just carry on using the pound. Eg there will be some sort of money a currency.
However without a Central bank and a currency it can neither control the value of the currency and nor will will it be realistically able to under pin it's own borrowing on the world market. It will need to borrow.
So with paying high interest rates on it's borrowing if anyone will lend money to a country which in affect does not have a bank account. it will basically end up economically like some one using pay day wonga loans. This will not have a great immediate effect as I said earlier it will take time before it spirals out of control but it will do which is why I worry for the average working man.
it will be like the Greek economy. Salmon will be able to hide it for awhile but it will appear down the road. Things could end up in a shocking state.
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Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
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Yes or No, by Deleted on Sept 18, 2014 9:17:38 GMT 1, Actually it doesn't!! it just says the ยฃ is a fully trade able currency so anyone can use it. This is true. So Scotland could just carry on using the pound. However without a Central bank and a currency it can neither control the value of the currency and nor will will it be realistically able to under pin it's own borrowing on the world market. It will need to borrow. So with paying high interest rates on it's borrowing if anyone will lend money to a country which in affect does not have a bank account. it will basically end up economically like some one using pay day wonga loans. This will not have a great immediate effect as I said earlier it will take time before it spirals out of control but it will do which is why I worry for the average working man. it will be like the Greek economy. Salmon will be able to hide it for awhile but it will appear down the road. Things could end up in a shocking state.
Scotland will sort themselves out. As I said before nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Stability may not happen overnight, but they'll get there.
Actually it doesn't!! it just says the ยฃ is a fully trade able currency so anyone can use it. This is true. So Scotland could just carry on using the pound. However without a Central bank and a currency it can neither control the value of the currency and nor will will it be realistically able to under pin it's own borrowing on the world market. It will need to borrow. So with paying high interest rates on it's borrowing if anyone will lend money to a country which in affect does not have a bank account. it will basically end up economically like some one using pay day wonga loans. This will not have a great immediate effect as I said earlier it will take time before it spirals out of control but it will do which is why I worry for the average working man. it will be like the Greek economy. Salmon will be able to hide it for awhile but it will appear down the road. Things could end up in a shocking state. An example of fear keeping the status quo, and preserving those who benefit most from it. Which is how the establishment has run the 'no' campaign. Scotland will sort themselves out. As I said before nothing ventured, nothing gained. Stability may not happen overnight, but they'll get there. |
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johnnyh
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 4,492
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March 2011
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Yes or No, by johnnyh on Sept 18, 2014 9:38:03 GMT 1, Headfall I am not saying they should or should not go for or have independence to be honest I care little either way.
The points I am raising actually could be sorted and should be sorted prior to this happening but it does not suit Salmon etc.
Eg if they negotiated that independence happened in 10 years time they could have built the central bank and developed a currency etc etc. they would solve really all the negativity and worry etc.
the fact that this has not been done is shameful. It's a yes or no with no clear route or agreement on probably the most crucially important economic matter. The long term loser in this as always will be the average working Man not the rich who will have the bulk of their wealth else where. Which is already the case for the wealthy in Scotland and the rest of the UK.
so it's not about whether Scotland could or could not economically be independent, just why there has been no central bank formulated and given time to develop. No currency concept nor one developed etc etc so it should not be about the fear of the unknown. These things are all known.
Headfall I am not saying they should or should not go for or have independence to be honest I care little either way.
The points I am raising actually could be sorted and should be sorted prior to this happening but it does not suit Salmon etc.
Eg if they negotiated that independence happened in 10 years time they could have built the central bank and developed a currency etc etc. they would solve really all the negativity and worry etc.
the fact that this has not been done is shameful. It's a yes or no with no clear route or agreement on probably the most crucially important economic matter. The long term loser in this as always will be the average working Man not the rich who will have the bulk of their wealth else where. Which is already the case for the wealthy in Scotland and the rest of the UK.
so it's not about whether Scotland could or could not economically be independent, just why there has been no central bank formulated and given time to develop. No currency concept nor one developed etc etc so it should not be about the fear of the unknown. These things are all known.
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balibob
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,782
๐๐ป 326
November 2010
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Yes or No, by balibob on Sept 18, 2014 10:30:12 GMT 1, I see Braveheart is now on continuous loop on all TV stations north of Carlisle. What about the millions of Scots who live in England? I hope if the vote is yes, that we insist that they finally learn to speak English. My best mate is a Glaswegian, cant understand a fcuking word he says until he's had 3 pints and calms down to a frenzy.
I see Braveheart is now on continuous loop on all TV stations north of Carlisle. What about the millions of Scots who live in England? I hope if the vote is yes, that we insist that they finally learn to speak English. My best mate is a Glaswegian, cant understand a fcuking word he says until he's had 3 pints and calms down to a frenzy.
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Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
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Yes or No, by Deleted on Sept 18, 2014 11:31:27 GMT 1, www.woodreview.co.uk/big slab of .pdf link regarding the oil - its the Wood review on Scotch reserves - theres not a massive amount left, all things considered I cant imagine anyone wanting to read it, but you never know Ian Wood - reported in Feb there was 24Billion barrels in North Sea then changed his mind in Aug saying there only 16billion barrels, North Sea Oil will only last another 40 years, what a disaster! What's not mentioned is the other 100yrs of oil west of Shetland and west coast of Scotland. Are you aware of Ian Woods investment in Fracking which wouldn't get licences in independent Scotland. I've had my eyes opened last few months, it's not what media report in this country that's important it's what they don't report! Do your research online, it's all there but not being reported!
www.woodreview.co.uk/big slab of .pdf link regarding the oil - its the Wood review on Scotch reserves - theres not a massive amount left, all things considered I cant imagine anyone wanting to read it, but you never know Ian Wood - reported in Feb there was 24Billion barrels in North Sea then changed his mind in Aug saying there only 16billion barrels, North Sea Oil will only last another 40 years, what a disaster! What's not mentioned is the other 100yrs of oil west of Shetland and west coast of Scotland. Are you aware of Ian Woods investment in Fracking which wouldn't get licences in independent Scotland. I've had my eyes opened last few months, it's not what media report in this country that's important it's what they don't report! Do your research online, it's all there but not being reported! there is plenlty of oil, but the issue is that most of the easy stuff has been gorned since the 70s. a rising oil price will blates mean that more reserves are viable of course, but the cheap glut of oil for pennies has long gone |
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johnnyh
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 4,492
๐๐ป 2,102
March 2011
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Yes or No, by johnnyh on Sept 18, 2014 15:31:56 GMT 1, Was discussing this whole issue with my priest the other day and as he said.......
"Judas was never my favourite apostle anyway !!!" 
Was discussing this whole issue with my priest the other day and as he said....... "Judas was never my favourite apostle anyway !!!" |
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Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
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January 1970
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Yes or No, by Deleted on Sept 18, 2014 17:08:56 GMT 1, To bring this thread to the subject of art, I have only just discovered Scott Campbell and Phillip Reeves. Any more interesting, perhaps more urban Scottish artist print makers people could recommend looking at?
To bring this thread to the subject of art, I have only just discovered Scott Campbell and Phillip Reeves. Any more interesting, perhaps more urban Scottish artist print makers people could recommend looking at?
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Hubble Bubble
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 4,117
๐๐ป 3,567
December 2010
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Yes or No, by Hubble Bubble on Sept 18, 2014 18:12:23 GMT 1, I'm not a betting man but I hear the bookies rarely get things wrong. Current odds on the referendum show a 'Yes' vote at 4/1 with odds drifting, a 'No' vote is at 1/6 (odds on) with odds shortening. This is the same for around 20 bookies that I'm looking at in an online comparison site.
I'm not a betting man but I hear the bookies rarely get things wrong. Current odds on the referendum show a 'Yes' vote at 4/1 with odds drifting, a 'No' vote is at 1/6 (odds on) with odds shortening. This is the same for around 20 bookies that I'm looking at in an online comparison site.
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me7777
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 433
๐๐ป 299
January 2011
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Yes or No, by me7777 on Sept 18, 2014 18:25:30 GMT 1, To bring this thread to the subject of art, I have only just discovered Scott Campbell and Phillip Reeves. Any more interesting, perhaps more urban Scottish artist print makers people could recommend looking at?
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