Deleted
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January 1970
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Deleted on Jun 15, 2016 23:14:56 GMT 1, I feel like selling so many damaged prints is terrible form by bonhams. How hard is it to find mint banksys? They sell every day here on the forum. If Your gonna pay a huge markup to buy from a blue chip auction house you should rightly expect only the upmost of quality. I think it's at least refreshing to see a quality professional condition report. A good conservationist will offer this service at a fair price. I wouldn't say "Mint" Banksy prints are sold everyday on here. "Mint" is unfortunately so highly subjective and many that are said to be "mint" are in fact not even close upon actual inspection (not all mind you but many that I have come across in my searches). For context I collected comic books for many years CGC is the most respected and well known grading standard, although there are a few others that don't command the premium that CGC does. They are on a 10 point scale with .5 each number until the 9s which is then every .2 That is getting a bit nerdy but I wish there was more of a grading standard for some of these prints as well.
I feel like selling so many damaged prints is terrible form by bonhams. How hard is it to find mint banksys? They sell every day here on the forum. If Your gonna pay a huge markup to buy from a blue chip auction house you should rightly expect only the upmost of quality. I think it's at least refreshing to see a quality professional condition report. A good conservationist will offer this service at a fair price. I wouldn't say "Mint" Banksy prints are sold everyday on here. "Mint" is unfortunately so highly subjective and many that are said to be "mint" are in fact not even close upon actual inspection (not all mind you but many that I have come across in my searches). For context I collected comic books for many years CGC is the most respected and well known grading standard, although there are a few others that don't command the premium that CGC does. They are on a 10 point scale with .5 each number until the 9s which is then every .2 That is getting a bit nerdy but I wish there was more of a grading standard for some of these prints as well.
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Deleted on Jun 15, 2016 23:16:35 GMT 1, whoa, raking lights, just googled them
Does your banksy pass the raking light test? :-)
whoa, raking lights, just googled them
Does your banksy pass the raking light test? :-)
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Deleted
Posts • 0
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January 1970
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Deleted on Jun 15, 2016 23:24:42 GMT 1, whoa, raking lights, just googled them Does your banksy pass the raking light test? :-) Actually a really great way to check for or indicate soft creases if your only reference point is a photo and you can't see it in person.
whoa, raking lights, just googled them Does your banksy pass the raking light test? :-) Actually a really great way to check for or indicate soft creases if your only reference point is a photo and you can't see it in person.
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Zanda
Artist
New Member
Posts • 292
Likes • 220
May 2012
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Zanda on Jun 15, 2016 23:28:19 GMT 1, Raking light, the illumination of objects from a light source at an oblique angle or almost parallel to the surface, provides information on the surface topography and relief of the artefact thus lit. It is widely used in the examination of works of art.
- wiki
Raking light, the illumination of objects from a light source at an oblique angle or almost parallel to the surface, provides information on the surface topography and relief of the artefact thus lit. It is widely used in the examination of works of art.
- wiki
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Balboa
New Member
Posts • 975
Likes • 1,407
November 2007
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Balboa on Jun 22, 2016 16:54:02 GMT 1, Because I'm worthless £15,625 Grin Reaper £11,875 Toxic Mary £10,000 Nola AP £30,000
All including buyer's premium.
Because I'm worthless £15,625 Grin Reaper £11,875 Toxic Mary £10,000 Nola AP £30,000
All including buyer's premium.
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Balboa
New Member
Posts • 975
Likes • 1,407
November 2007
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Balboa on Jun 22, 2016 16:57:49 GMT 1, Barely Legal LA set - passed at £55,000 Colour Trolleys £15,000 Police Kids £13,750 Stop & Search £31,250 Flying Copper £20,000 CND £17,500 Weston Super Mare £13,750
All including buyer's premium.
Barely Legal LA set - passed at £55,000 Colour Trolleys £15,000 Police Kids £13,750 Stop & Search £31,250 Flying Copper £20,000 CND £17,500 Weston Super Mare £13,750
All including buyer's premium.
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quixote
New Member
Posts • 157
Likes • 230
May 2016
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by quixote on Jun 22, 2016 17:03:29 GMT 1, results for Banksy:all excluding 25% premium and resale right and tax.
Because I'm worthless: £12.5k Reaper: £9.5k Toxic Mary: £8k Nola: £24k LA Set: not sold Trolleys: £12k Police Kids: £11k Stop & Search: £25k Flying Copper: £16k CND: £14k WSM: £11k
I'm shocked at those results, some were really high for prints that weren't mint.
results for Banksy:all excluding 25% premium and resale right and tax.
Because I'm worthless: £12.5k Reaper: £9.5k Toxic Mary: £8k Nola: £24k LA Set: not sold Trolleys: £12k Police Kids: £11k Stop & Search: £25k Flying Copper: £16k CND: £14k WSM: £11k
I'm shocked at those results, some were really high for prints that weren't mint.
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WILLYBKLN
New Member
Posts • 973
Likes • 670
October 2013
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by WILLYBKLN on Jun 22, 2016 17:41:47 GMT 1, For us here in the States, if you add in the extra 34% in fees on top of hammer, INSANE.
For us here in the States, if you add in the extra 34% in fees on top of hammer, INSANE.
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Black Apple Art
Art Gallery
Junior Member
Posts • 2,007
Likes • 3,971
September 2013
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Black Apple Art on Jun 22, 2016 17:45:39 GMT 1, results for Banksy:all excluding 25% premium and resale right and tax. Because I'm worthless: £12.5k Reaper: £9.5k Toxic Mary: £8k Nola: £24k LA Set: not sold Trolleys: £12k Police Kids: £11k Stop & Search: £25k Flying Copper: £16k CND: £14k WSM: £11k I'm shocked at those results, some were really high for prints that weren't mint. Excluding the fees does not show what was actually paid for the pieces so a bit deceptive.
results for Banksy:all excluding 25% premium and resale right and tax. Because I'm worthless: £12.5k Reaper: £9.5k Toxic Mary: £8k Nola: £24k LA Set: not sold Trolleys: £12k Police Kids: £11k Stop & Search: £25k Flying Copper: £16k CND: £14k WSM: £11k I'm shocked at those results, some were really high for prints that weren't mint. Excluding the fees does not show what was actually paid for the pieces so a bit deceptive.
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mawge
New Member
Posts • 910
Likes • 181
March 2013
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by mawge on Jun 22, 2016 17:50:20 GMT 1, Very strong results considering a lot were framed with condition issues
Very strong results considering a lot were framed with condition issues
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Unica
Junior Member
Posts • 2,060
Likes • 1,222
November 2013
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Unica on Jun 22, 2016 17:50:57 GMT 1, results for Banksy:all excluding 25% premium and resale right and tax. Because I'm worthless: £12.5k Reaper: £9.5k Toxic Mary: £8k Nola: £24k LA Set: not sold Trolleys: £12k Police Kids: £11k Stop & Search: £25k Flying Copper: £16k CND: £14k WSM: £11k I'm shocked at those results, some were really high for prints that weren't mint. Excluding the fees does not show what was actually paid for the pieces so a bit deceptive. Agreed you have to include the fees to accurately record the prices paid. That being said what are the fees for USA buyers at a UK auction house? Is it more less than if one was a UK resident? Do UK buyers pay VAT on top of the hammer price?
results for Banksy:all excluding 25% premium and resale right and tax. Because I'm worthless: £12.5k Reaper: £9.5k Toxic Mary: £8k Nola: £24k LA Set: not sold Trolleys: £12k Police Kids: £11k Stop & Search: £25k Flying Copper: £16k CND: £14k WSM: £11k I'm shocked at those results, some were really high for prints that weren't mint. Excluding the fees does not show what was actually paid for the pieces so a bit deceptive. Agreed you have to include the fees to accurately record the prices paid. That being said what are the fees for USA buyers at a UK auction house? Is it more less than if one was a UK resident? Do UK buyers pay VAT on top of the hammer price?
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Deleted
Posts • 0
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January 1970
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 17:59:03 GMT 1, results for Banksy:all excluding 25% premium and resale right and tax. Because I'm worthless: £12.5k Reaper: £9.5k Toxic Mary: £8k Nola: £24k LA Set: not sold Trolleys: £12k Police Kids: £11k Stop & Search: £25k Flying Copper: £16k CND: £14k WSM: £11k I'm shocked at those results, some were really high for prints that weren't mint.
Wow......
results for Banksy:all excluding 25% premium and resale right and tax. Because I'm worthless: £12.5k Reaper: £9.5k Toxic Mary: £8k Nola: £24k LA Set: not sold Trolleys: £12k Police Kids: £11k Stop & Search: £25k Flying Copper: £16k CND: £14k WSM: £11k I'm shocked at those results, some were really high for prints that weren't mint. Wow......
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Black Apple Art
Art Gallery
Junior Member
Posts • 2,007
Likes • 3,971
September 2013
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Black Apple Art on Jun 22, 2016 17:59:23 GMT 1, Excluding the fees does not show what was actually paid for the pieces so a bit deceptive. Agreed you have to include the fees to accurately record the prices paid. That being said what are the fees for USA buyers at a UK auction house? Is it more less than if one was a UK resident? Do UK buyers pay VAT on top of the hammer price? Foreign buyers do not pay VAT but may be subject to duties when importing depending on where they are which is why this is not calculated in the posted sales price.
S&S killed it at $46k.. know they are in high demand and rising but that was definitely a record.
Excluding the fees does not show what was actually paid for the pieces so a bit deceptive. Agreed you have to include the fees to accurately record the prices paid. That being said what are the fees for USA buyers at a UK auction house? Is it more less than if one was a UK resident? Do UK buyers pay VAT on top of the hammer price? Foreign buyers do not pay VAT but may be subject to duties when importing depending on where they are which is why this is not calculated in the posted sales price. S&S killed it at $46k.. know they are in high demand and rising but that was definitely a record.
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quixote
New Member
Posts • 157
Likes • 230
May 2016
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by quixote on Jun 22, 2016 18:00:58 GMT 1, Excluding the fees does not show what was actually paid for the pieces so a bit deceptive. Agreed you have to include the fees to accurately record the prices paid. That being said what are the fees for USA buyers at a UK auction house? Is it more less than if one was a UK resident? Do UK buyers pay VAT on top of the hammer price?
Fees for the USA is about 34% plus the artist resale right percentage. Also shipping cost! Haha
Excluding the fees does not show what was actually paid for the pieces so a bit deceptive. Agreed you have to include the fees to accurately record the prices paid. That being said what are the fees for USA buyers at a UK auction house? Is it more less than if one was a UK resident? Do UK buyers pay VAT on top of the hammer price? Fees for the USA is about 34% plus the artist resale right percentage. Also shipping cost! Haha
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Black Apple Art
Art Gallery
Junior Member
Posts • 2,007
Likes • 3,971
September 2013
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Black Apple Art on Jun 22, 2016 18:01:58 GMT 1, What was actually paid in $
Nola Grey Rain $44k Because I'm Worthless Rat $23k Grin Reaper $17k Toxic Mary $14.6k Color Trolleys $22k GWB unsigned $34.8k Jack & Jill $20k Stop & Search $46k Flying Copper $30k CND Soldiers $25.7k Weston Super Mare $20k
What was actually paid in $
Nola Grey Rain $44k Because I'm Worthless Rat $23k Grin Reaper $17k Toxic Mary $14.6k Color Trolleys $22k GWB unsigned $34.8k Jack & Jill $20k Stop & Search $46k Flying Copper $30k CND Soldiers $25.7k Weston Super Mare $20k
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Loobaz
New Member
Posts • 321
Likes • 170
July 2011
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Loobaz on Jun 22, 2016 18:19:33 GMT 1, results for Banksy:all excluding 25% premium and resale right and tax. Because I'm worthless: £12.5k Reaper: £9.5k Toxic Mary: £8k Nola: £24k LA Set: not sold Trolleys: £12k Police Kids: £11k Stop & Search: £25k Flying Copper: £16k CND: £14k WSM: £11k I'm shocked at those results, some were really high for prints that weren't mint. Excluding the fees does not show what was actually paid for the pieces so a bit deceptive. Should you not also show the prices achieved by the sellers (Hammer minus Seller Premiums and any other fees)? Otherwise that can be deceptive, as well.
results for Banksy:all excluding 25% premium and resale right and tax. Because I'm worthless: £12.5k Reaper: £9.5k Toxic Mary: £8k Nola: £24k LA Set: not sold Trolleys: £12k Police Kids: £11k Stop & Search: £25k Flying Copper: £16k CND: £14k WSM: £11k I'm shocked at those results, some were really high for prints that weren't mint. Excluding the fees does not show what was actually paid for the pieces so a bit deceptive. Should you not also show the prices achieved by the sellers (Hammer minus Seller Premiums and any other fees)? Otherwise that can be deceptive, as well.
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Unica
Junior Member
Posts • 2,060
Likes • 1,222
November 2013
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Unica on Jun 22, 2016 18:23:18 GMT 1, What was actually paid in $ Nola Grey Rain $44k Because I'm Worthless Rat $23k Grin Reaper $17k Toxic Mary $14.6k Color Trolleys $22k GWB unsigned $34.8k Jack & Jill $20k Stop & Search $46k Flying Copper $30k CND Soldiers $25.7k Weston Super Mare $20k Thats seems like fair market value for the GWB unsigned, was this the one with condition issues?
What was actually paid in $ Nola Grey Rain $44k Because I'm Worthless Rat $23k Grin Reaper $17k Toxic Mary $14.6k Color Trolleys $22k GWB unsigned $34.8k Jack & Jill $20k Stop & Search $46k Flying Copper $30k CND Soldiers $25.7k Weston Super Mare $20k Thats seems like fair market value for the GWB unsigned, was this the one with condition issues?
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by stillborncrisps on Jun 22, 2016 18:34:02 GMT 1, results for Banksy:all excluding 25% premium and resale right and tax. Because I'm worthless: £12.5k Reaper: £9.5k Toxic Mary: £8k Nola: £24k LA Set: not sold Trolleys: £12k Police Kids: £11k Stop & Search: £25k Flying Copper: £16k CND: £14k WSM: £11k I'm shocked at those results, some were really high for prints that weren't mint. Wow......
Which version of Trolleys was it?
Also, I thought resale rights were only applied to originals, not prints?
results for Banksy:all excluding 25% premium and resale right and tax. Because I'm worthless: £12.5k Reaper: £9.5k Toxic Mary: £8k Nola: £24k LA Set: not sold Trolleys: £12k Police Kids: £11k Stop & Search: £25k Flying Copper: £16k CND: £14k WSM: £11k I'm shocked at those results, some were really high for prints that weren't mint. Wow...... Which version of Trolleys was it? Also, I thought resale rights were only applied to originals, not prints?
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quixote
New Member
Posts • 157
Likes • 230
May 2016
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by quixote on Jun 22, 2016 18:37:14 GMT 1, Which version of Trolleys was it? Also, I thought resale rights were only applied to originals, not prints? Regular color version of trolleys I believe...
All those prints had "AR" attached to the listing.
Which version of Trolleys was it? Also, I thought resale rights were only applied to originals, not prints? Regular color version of trolleys I believe... All those prints had "AR" attached to the listing.
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loartve
New Member
Posts • 120
Likes • 16
January 2016
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by loartve on Jun 22, 2016 18:48:51 GMT 1, It was Trolleys (Colour). The Nola was an AP and dedicated. The LA set were PPs
It was Trolleys (Colour). The Nola was an AP and dedicated. The LA set were PPs
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Deleted
Posts • 0
Likes •
January 1970
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 18:49:16 GMT 1, Which version of Trolleys was it? Also, I thought resale rights were only applied to originals, not prints?
AR has been applied to any Banksy prints ive seen at auction recently.
Which version of Trolleys was it? Also, I thought resale rights were only applied to originals, not prints? AR has been applied to any Banksy prints ive seen at auction recently.
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Black Apple Art
Art Gallery
Junior Member
Posts • 2,007
Likes • 3,971
September 2013
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Black Apple Art on Jun 22, 2016 18:50:03 GMT 1, Excluding the fees does not show what was actually paid for the pieces so a bit deceptive. Should you not also show the prices achieved by the sellers (Hammer minus Seller Premiums and any other fees)? Otherwise that can be deceptive, as well. Well ultimately the significant factor is what buyers actually pay for these pieces and not what a seller nets due to various fees structures ect. All and all just a guide and more affirmation of the constant increase in demand and decrease in supply.
Excluding the fees does not show what was actually paid for the pieces so a bit deceptive. Should you not also show the prices achieved by the sellers (Hammer minus Seller Premiums and any other fees)? Otherwise that can be deceptive, as well. Well ultimately the significant factor is what buyers actually pay for these pieces and not what a seller nets due to various fees structures ect. All and all just a guide and more affirmation of the constant increase in demand and decrease in supply.
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Deleted
Posts • 0
Likes •
January 1970
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 18:51:27 GMT 1, results for Banksy:all excluding 25% premium and resale right and tax. Because I'm worthless: £12.5k Reaper: £9.5k Toxic Mary: £8k Nola: £24k LA Set: not sold Trolleys: £12k Police Kids: £11k Stop & Search: £25k Flying Copper: £16k CND: £14k WSM: £11k I'm shocked at those results, some were really high for prints that weren't mint. Wow......
Is Banksy the new Stik at these prices ?
results for Banksy:all excluding 25% premium and resale right and tax. Because I'm worthless: £12.5k Reaper: £9.5k Toxic Mary: £8k Nola: £24k LA Set: not sold Trolleys: £12k Police Kids: £11k Stop & Search: £25k Flying Copper: £16k CND: £14k WSM: £11k I'm shocked at those results, some were really high for prints that weren't mint. Wow...... Is Banksy the new Stik at these prices ?
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Loobaz
New Member
Posts • 321
Likes • 170
July 2011
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Loobaz on Jun 22, 2016 18:55:45 GMT 1, For the purposes of clarity (as sellers tend to use these results to price their private sales), below is Approximately what the Sellers achieved:
Because I'm worthless: £10k Reaper: £7.6k Toxic Mary: £6.4k Nola: £19.2k LA Set: not sold Trolleys: £9.6k Police Kids: £8.8k Stop & Search: £20k Flying Copper: £12.8k CND: £11.2k WSM: £8.8k
For the purposes of clarity (as sellers tend to use these results to price their private sales), below is Approximately what the Sellers achieved:
Because I'm worthless: £10k Reaper: £7.6k Toxic Mary: £6.4k Nola: £19.2k LA Set: not sold Trolleys: £9.6k Police Kids: £8.8k Stop & Search: £20k Flying Copper: £12.8k CND: £11.2k WSM: £8.8k
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Loobaz
New Member
Posts • 321
Likes • 170
July 2011
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Loobaz on Jun 22, 2016 18:58:20 GMT 1, Should you not also show the prices achieved by the sellers (Hammer minus Seller Premiums and any other fees)? Otherwise that can be deceptive, as well. Well ultimately the significant factor is what buyers actually pay for these pieces and not what a seller nets due to various fees structures ect. All and all just a guide and more affirmation of the constant increase in demand and decrease in supply. When Sellers use these "plus, plus" prices to price their Private sales, I do believe it necessary to take the actual price achieved into consideration. The door swings both ways, after all.
Should you not also show the prices achieved by the sellers (Hammer minus Seller Premiums and any other fees)? Otherwise that can be deceptive, as well. Well ultimately the significant factor is what buyers actually pay for these pieces and not what a seller nets due to various fees structures ect. All and all just a guide and more affirmation of the constant increase in demand and decrease in supply. When Sellers use these "plus, plus" prices to price their Private sales, I do believe it necessary to take the actual price achieved into consideration. The door swings both ways, after all.
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Deleted
Posts • 0
Likes •
January 1970
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 19:01:32 GMT 1, Sold for less than what people here are trying to pimp them out for.
Sold for less than what people here are trying to pimp them out for.
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lee3
New Member
Posts • 832
Likes • 1,290
November 2009
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by lee3 on Jun 22, 2016 19:05:23 GMT 1, Excluding the fees does not show what was actually paid for the pieces so a bit deceptive. Should you not also show the prices achieved by the sellers (Hammer minus Seller Premiums and any other fees)? Otherwise that can be deceptive, as well. It's a fairly accepted standard to always report with premium. You know that buyers always paid a little (5%) to a lot (15%) more depending on where they live than the price with premium. You can also safely assume that sellers receive about 2/3s of the reported price with premium IF they paid full sellers fees. Given the demand for this artist in particular, most smart sellers are going to pay reduced sellers fees.
Excluding the fees does not show what was actually paid for the pieces so a bit deceptive. Should you not also show the prices achieved by the sellers (Hammer minus Seller Premiums and any other fees)? Otherwise that can be deceptive, as well. It's a fairly accepted standard to always report with premium. You know that buyers always paid a little (5%) to a lot (15%) more depending on where they live than the price with premium. You can also safely assume that sellers receive about 2/3s of the reported price with premium IF they paid full sellers fees. Given the demand for this artist in particular, most smart sellers are going to pay reduced sellers fees.
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mrblast
New Member
Posts • 494
Likes • 129
January 2011
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by mrblast on Jun 22, 2016 21:12:57 GMT 1, Well ultimately the significant factor is what buyers actually pay for these pieces and not what a seller nets due to various fees structures ect. All and all just a guide and more affirmation of the constant increase in demand and decrease in supply. When Sellers use these "plus, plus" prices to price their Private sales, I do believe it necessary to take the actual price achieved into consideration. The door swings both ways, after all. Yes but the market is more accurately reflected by what someone is prepared to pay not by what the seller receives net after his individual circumstances and fee structures have been considered.
Well ultimately the significant factor is what buyers actually pay for these pieces and not what a seller nets due to various fees structures ect. All and all just a guide and more affirmation of the constant increase in demand and decrease in supply. When Sellers use these "plus, plus" prices to price their Private sales, I do believe it necessary to take the actual price achieved into consideration. The door swings both ways, after all. Yes but the market is more accurately reflected by what someone is prepared to pay not by what the seller receives net after his individual circumstances and fee structures have been considered.
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Loobaz
New Member
Posts • 321
Likes • 170
July 2011
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Loobaz on Jun 22, 2016 21:41:45 GMT 1, When Sellers use these "plus, plus" prices to price their Private sales, I do believe it necessary to take the actual price achieved into consideration. The door swings both ways, after all. Yes but the market is more accurately reflected by what someone is prepared to pay not by what the seller receives net after his individual circumstances and fee structures have been considered. All I am saying is that when Sellers use these auction sales figures to price their artwork for private sale (which we all know to be the case), I think it is pertinent to also remember their net result from such sales.
When Sellers use these "plus, plus" prices to price their Private sales, I do believe it necessary to take the actual price achieved into consideration. The door swings both ways, after all. Yes but the market is more accurately reflected by what someone is prepared to pay not by what the seller receives net after his individual circumstances and fee structures have been considered. All I am saying is that when Sellers use these auction sales figures to price their artwork for private sale (which we all know to be the case), I think it is pertinent to also remember their net result from such sales.
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Deleted
Posts • 0
Likes •
January 1970
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Bonhams • Art Auctions • London 🇬🇧, by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 22:16:36 GMT 1, I think the market is as much driven by what a seller is prepared to accept as much as a buyer is prepared to pay.
I think the market is as much driven by what a seller is prepared to accept as much as a buyer is prepared to pay.
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