Shoot Again
Junior Member
Posts โข 5,561
Likes โข 2,765
April 2011
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Shoot Again on Mar 7, 2019 10:21:53 GMT 1, This auction told us noting. Lets see what happens when another one is auctioned It does tell us SOMETHING : that none of us pundits / Banksy lovers here did make a single bid above ยฃ68K !!!
This auction told us noting. Lets see what happens when another one is auctioned It does tell us SOMETHING : that none of us pundits / Banksy lovers here did make a single bid above ยฃ68K !!!
|
|
Shoot Again
Junior Member
Posts โข 5,561
Likes โข 2,765
April 2011
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Shoot Again on Mar 7, 2019 10:25:57 GMT 1, I really donโt necessarily blame the auction house here I think this piece is a challenge for a number of reasons mentioned, mainly how to display it and itโs context. Combining those two actually it may be initially difficult for (others) to decipher it from just a regular crucifix with a rope, depending how high up it is. Whereas cwsb jumps out what itโs trying to tell you. Iโm not into the blatant religious statement pieces but Iโd much rather have that print than this even if there were 1000 printed and only 3 of the hooks made. People saying 200, you have to think not many people would buy this over a Girl With Balloon print Of course the auction house can't be blamed ! It was well advertised and displayed. Bonhams is actually THE place to go if you're genuinely interested to buy a Banksy artworks you really like / want. Your chances to get it at a good price are in theory much higher than at Christie's or Sotheby's. However, when a piece is not appealing enough or with too high estimates then it just doesn't sell (ie. the Sex Pistols at Sotheby's). Quite simple really
I really donโt necessarily blame the auction house here I think this piece is a challenge for a number of reasons mentioned, mainly how to display it and itโs context. Combining those two actually it may be initially difficult for (others) to decipher it from just a regular crucifix with a rope, depending how high up it is. Whereas cwsb jumps out what itโs trying to tell you. Iโm not into the blatant religious statement pieces but Iโd much rather have that print than this even if there were 1000 printed and only 3 of the hooks made. People saying 200, you have to think not many people would buy this over a Girl With Balloon print Of course the auction house can't be blamed ! It was well advertised and displayed. Bonhams is actually THE place to go if you're genuinely interested to buy a Banksy artworks you really like / want. Your chances to get it at a good price are in theory much higher than at Christie's or Sotheby's. However, when a piece is not appealing enough or with too high estimates then it just doesn't sell (ie. the Sex Pistols at Sotheby's). Quite simple really
|
|
Winter
Junior Member
Posts โข 7,152
Likes โข 4,455
March 2007
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Winter on Mar 7, 2019 10:36:49 GMT 1, With everything online it doesnโt matter which auction house it is. You could sit on a toilet in Mongolia and bid on this. In fact the auctioneer (Ralph) let this piece open to bids for longer than I think Iโve ever seen before, he really gave it a good chance.
With everything online it doesnโt matter which auction house it is. You could sit on a toilet in Mongolia and bid on this. In fact the auctioneer (Ralph) let this piece open to bids for longer than I think Iโve ever seen before, he really gave it a good chance.
|
|
Unica
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,060
Likes โข 1,222
November 2013
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Unica on Mar 7, 2019 10:48:43 GMT 1, With everything online it doesnโt matter which auction house it is. You could sit on a toilet in Mongolia and bid on this. In fact the auctioneer (Ralph) let this piece open to bids for longer than I think Iโve ever seen before, he really gave it a good chance. I thought the same, it was painful to watch as the auctioneer attempted to solicit some bids for what seemed like an eternity, crickets!. I couldn't fault Bonhams on this. I'd think a few owners will have some explaining to their other halves after last night, as I'm sure a few stretched to purchase it when they won the opportunity to purchase them for ยฃ50k. "oh don't worry darling this will be worth ยฃ250k in a couple of years" I would think there will be a few quietly being offered soon, as it didn't turn out to be such a great flip and it's a lot of money to have tied up for the next few years as many will see the piece as burnt. I remember when they were being offered and I thought that's a lot of money for what it is.
With everything online it doesnโt matter which auction house it is. You could sit on a toilet in Mongolia and bid on this. In fact the auctioneer (Ralph) let this piece open to bids for longer than I think Iโve ever seen before, he really gave it a good chance. I thought the same, it was painful to watch as the auctioneer attempted to solicit some bids for what seemed like an eternity, crickets!. I couldn't fault Bonhams on this. I'd think a few owners will have some explaining to their other halves after last night, as I'm sure a few stretched to purchase it when they won the opportunity to purchase them for ยฃ50k. "oh don't worry darling this will be worth ยฃ250k in a couple of years" I would think there will be a few quietly being offered soon, as it didn't turn out to be such a great flip and it's a lot of money to have tied up for the next few years as many will see the piece as burnt. I remember when they were being offered and I thought that's a lot of money for what it is.
|
|
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Happy Shopper on Mar 7, 2019 10:58:54 GMT 1, Only just catching up with this. Seems odd that this didn't sell... but I guess it's appeal is slightly limited by the subject matter... especially for any rich buyers who are particularly religious (or worry about hanging it in their house and what their friends/relations might say).
Only just catching up with this. Seems odd that this didn't sell... but I guess it's appeal is slightly limited by the subject matter... especially for any rich buyers who are particularly religious (or worry about hanging it in their house and what their friends/relations might say).
|
|
Deleted
Posts โข 0
Likes โข
January 1970
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 11:48:55 GMT 1, I went to the auction, did not end up bidding as the BP made it too high for us. This was simply the wrong audience, Bonhams have way too much of a conservative scene of collectors. This in time will do a lot better at one of the other edgier auction houses. I was wrong though I expected this to fly - but as many have said, wrong auction, wrong audience. I'm always surprised when people say "wrong auction house". In this day and age, art collectors monitor all the major auction houses. Do you care if the item you want is being sold by Sothebys or Phillips or Bonhams? I certainly don't. Why should I?
I went to the auction, did not end up bidding as the BP made it too high for us. This was simply the wrong audience, Bonhams have way too much of a conservative scene of collectors. This in time will do a lot better at one of the other edgier auction houses. I was wrong though I expected this to fly - but as many have said, wrong auction, wrong audience. I'm always surprised when people say "wrong auction house". In this day and age, art collectors monitor all the major auction houses. Do you care if the item you want is being sold by Sothebys or Phillips or Bonhams? I certainly don't. Why should I?
|
|
|
Deleted
Posts โข 0
Likes โข
January 1970
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 11:57:50 GMT 1, Perhaps I'm the only one but I find this piece really ugly. There is no way I would want that thing on display in my house. But having said that, I think it's probably worth 70K. If I had a huge bank balance I would probably buy it and simply store it in the spare bedroom for a decade and then sell it on.
Perhaps I'm the only one but I find this piece really ugly. There is no way I would want that thing on display in my house. But having said that, I think it's probably worth 70K. If I had a huge bank balance I would probably buy it and simply store it in the spare bedroom for a decade and then sell it on.
|
|
Eton Groover
New Member
Posts โข 967
Likes โข 1,013
February 2008
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Eton Groover on Mar 7, 2019 14:21:20 GMT 1, I am taking a punt that the owner of this is a member of the forum. If you are the owner, please get in touch, I would like to buy this - discretion assured. Thank you.
Just for the record owner, this member thought it should go for ยฃ250k. So thereโs your starting point
I am taking a punt that the owner of this is a member of the forum. If you are the owner, please get in touch, I would like to buy this - discretion assured. Thank you. Just for the record owner, this member thought it should go for ยฃ250k. So thereโs your starting point
|
|
irl1
Full Member
Posts โข 9,274
Likes โข 9,381
December 2017
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by irl1 on Mar 7, 2019 14:23:13 GMT 1, I'm not sure with Bonham's but i have done this with other auction houses. No harm to ask This lot is now "burned " all auction activity being genuine interest is suspect so the price will be negatively affected, from last highest Bid. To be honest it looks like there were only house bids on it
I'm not sure with Bonham's but i have done this with other auction houses. No harm to ask This lot is now "burned " all auction activity being genuine interest is suspect so the price will be negatively affected, from last highest Bid. To be honest it looks like there were only house bids on it
|
|
irl1
Full Member
Posts โข 9,274
Likes โข 9,381
December 2017
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by irl1 on Mar 7, 2019 14:26:44 GMT 1, This auction told us noting. Lets see what happens when another one is auctioned It does tell us SOMETHING : that none of us pundits / Banksy lovers here did make a single bid above ยฃ68K !!! How many of us Banksy lovers have 70k + fees to spend?
This auction told us noting. Lets see what happens when another one is auctioned It does tell us SOMETHING : that none of us pundits / Banksy lovers here did make a single bid above ยฃ68K !!! How many of us Banksy lovers have 70k + fees to spend?
|
|
irl1
Full Member
Posts โข 9,274
Likes โข 9,381
December 2017
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by irl1 on Mar 7, 2019 14:34:57 GMT 1, I am taking a punt that the owner of this is a member of the forum. If you are the owner, please get in touch, I would like to buy this - discretion assured. Thank you. That's not a punt, its a sure fire winner
I am taking a punt that the owner of this is a member of the forum. If you are the owner, please get in touch, I would like to buy this - discretion assured. Thank you. That's not a punt, its a sure fire winner
|
|
kuni
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,153
Likes โข 1,818
February 2018
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by kuni on Mar 7, 2019 14:36:17 GMT 1, It does tell us SOMETHING : that none of us pundits / Banksy lovers here did make a single bid above ยฃ68K !!! How many of us Banksy lovers have 70k + fees to spend? It seems like there are a fair number of folks on this forum with that kind of disposable income. Or at least a fair number that hold themselves out as having that kind of loot.
It does tell us SOMETHING : that none of us pundits / Banksy lovers here did make a single bid above ยฃ68K !!! How many of us Banksy lovers have 70k + fees to spend? It seems like there are a fair number of folks on this forum with that kind of disposable income. Or at least a fair number that hold themselves out as having that kind of loot.
|
|
irl1
Full Member
Posts โข 9,274
Likes โข 9,381
December 2017
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by irl1 on Mar 7, 2019 14:39:08 GMT 1, Perhaps I'm the only one but I find this piece really ugly. There is no way I would want that thing on display in my house. But having said that, I think it's probably worth 70K. If I had a huge bank balance I would probably buy it and simply store it in the spare bedroom for a decade and then sell it on. I'm glad you don't have the spare cash for it, this should be hanging at your front door where everyone can see it
Perhaps I'm the only one but I find this piece really ugly. There is no way I would want that thing on display in my house. But having said that, I think it's probably worth 70K. If I had a huge bank balance I would probably buy it and simply store it in the spare bedroom for a decade and then sell it on. I'm glad you don't have the spare cash for it, this should be hanging at your front door where everyone can see it
|
|
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by The Italian One on Mar 7, 2019 14:39:40 GMT 1, It does tell us SOMETHING : that none of us pundits / Banksy lovers here did make a single bid above ยฃ68K !!! How many of us Banksy lovers have 70k + fees to spend? not me.. but if i had that budget i would be all over it at that price!
It does tell us SOMETHING : that none of us pundits / Banksy lovers here did make a single bid above ยฃ68K !!! How many of us Banksy lovers have 70k + fees to spend? not me.. but if i had that budget i would be all over it at that price!
|
|
|
irl1
Full Member
Posts โข 9,274
Likes โข 9,381
December 2017
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by irl1 on Mar 7, 2019 14:43:09 GMT 1, I went to the auction, did not end up bidding as the BP made it too high for us. This was simply the wrong audience, Bonhams have way too much of a conservative scene of collectors. This in time will do a lot better at one of the other edgier auction houses. I was wrong though I expected this to fly - but as many have said, wrong auction, wrong audience. I'm always surprised when people say "wrong auction house". In this day and age, art collectors monitor all the major auction houses. Do you care if the item you want is being sold by Sothebys or Phillips or Bonhams? I certainly don't. Why should I? If only it worked that way there would never ever be an unsold lot. There are auction houses who ring their clients to let them know when they have something to their taste.
I'm sorry to let you know a lot of clients don't bother to check what's coming up in auctions
I went to the auction, did not end up bidding as the BP made it too high for us. This was simply the wrong audience, Bonhams have way too much of a conservative scene of collectors. This in time will do a lot better at one of the other edgier auction houses. I was wrong though I expected this to fly - but as many have said, wrong auction, wrong audience. I'm always surprised when people say "wrong auction house". In this day and age, art collectors monitor all the major auction houses. Do you care if the item you want is being sold by Sothebys or Phillips or Bonhams? I certainly don't. Why should I? If only it worked that way there would never ever be an unsold lot. There are auction houses who ring their clients to let them know when they have something to their taste. I'm sorry to let you know a lot of clients don't bother to check what's coming up in auctions
|
|
Fast Eddie
New Member
Posts โข 707
Likes โข 845
November 2018
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Fast Eddie on Mar 7, 2019 14:44:57 GMT 1, Please buy it. This thing deserves a market, if anything for the product safety disclaimer that tells you not to use the hook for actually climbing walls.
Please buy it. This thing deserves a market, if anything for the product safety disclaimer that tells you not to use the hook for actually climbing walls.
|
|
Deleted
Posts โข 0
Likes โข
January 1970
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 17:20:17 GMT 1, Perhaps I'm the only one but I find this piece really ugly. There is no way I would want that thing on display in my house. But having said that, I think it's probably worth 70K. If I had a huge bank balance I would probably buy it and simply store it in the spare bedroom for a decade and then sell it on. I'm glad you don't have the spare cash for it, this should be hanging at your front door where everyone can see it At least it should keep away vampires. Or is it zombies? One can never be too careful.
Perhaps I'm the only one but I find this piece really ugly. There is no way I would want that thing on display in my house. But having said that, I think it's probably worth 70K. If I had a huge bank balance I would probably buy it and simply store it in the spare bedroom for a decade and then sell it on. I'm glad you don't have the spare cash for it, this should be hanging at your front door where everyone can see it At least it should keep away vampires. Or is it zombies? One can never be too careful.
|
|
Amber Halo
New Member
Posts โข 554
Likes โข 625
April 2013
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Amber Halo on Mar 7, 2019 18:06:51 GMT 1, I am taking a punt that the owner of this is a member of the forum. If you are the owner, please get in touch, I would like to buy this - discretion assured. Thank you. Just for the record owner, this member thought it should go for ยฃ250k. So thereโs your starting point
โCocaine is a helluva drug.โ Rick James
I am taking a punt that the owner of this is a member of the forum. If you are the owner, please get in touch, I would like to buy this - discretion assured. Thank you. Just for the record owner, this member thought it should go for ยฃ250k. So thereโs your starting point โCocaine is a helluva drug.โ Rick James
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,782
Likes โข 6,706
June 2009
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by met on Mar 7, 2019 18:37:05 GMT 1, So an editioned Canvas, ie, Girl With Balloon edition of 25 spray painted by hand is not an original, i think many would disagree . Many would be wrong. Well, you know what I mean. Itโs hardly original if there are more than one, whatever the semantics. I think this is a nice curiosity. An aberration from his usual oeuvre. Having said that, Dismaland featured many โsculpturesโ, and his Guantanamo/Disneyland stunt, well, it depends whether bonuses have been paid. It could go either way. I wouldnโt thank you for it.
Many would be wrong. Well, you know what I mean. Itโs hardly original if there are more than one, whatever the semantics. ... So, is an "original" a one-of-a-kind or is it an artwork handmade by the artist as opposed to a print?
I have seen some galleries say "Editioned Original" which means thats its an original image but the image has been used in the same medium more than once. When I buy or sell art I always ask or put is it an edition 1/1 Unique if it is truly an original. Agreed. I take original to mean hand painted, as appose to printed. An original can then be part of an edition of originals, or unique. If the former, it should really be numbered.
There follows a 2014 post by me regarding a shift in terminology over time. I first became aware of it with the Banksy market โ when stencil-sprayed multiples started being described by some resellers as "originals".
At source, I think each of these works had been referred to more honestly and accurately as simply "a painting" or "a canvas" that was part of an edition.
Based on your description above, the "More money than sense" evaluation seems overly harsh to me. Editioned works are by definition unoriginal. That woman's position is consistent with how the art world generally considers originals. It was with Ban ksy's stencil-based, editioned canvases (and only a few years ago, not necessarily when released) that I first noticed some sellers attempting to alter the meaning of "original". Others, especially new collectors, followed suit without question. The term was thus broadened and arguably corrupted in the context of Ban ksy, no longer strictly referring to one-of-a-kind pieces. Instead of the distinguishing factor being uniqueness, as it is in the wider art market, what constitutes an original with the Ban ksy market is now determined by medium. And so, for example, any one of 25 identical Ban ksy paintings is an original if it's a hand-sprayed stencil โ whether on canvas, board, paper, or other surface. The silly result (at least to my mind) is that an editioned work, a multiple and one of many, can simultaneously be deemed "original". This shift is market-driven. Those with vested financial interests care less about terminology. They're happy for definitions to change, to become less strict, provided they also benefit. That's the case with private collectors, gallerists, other dealers, and auction houses looking or potentially looking to sell. From a business perspective this makes complete sense. A painting is easier to offload, it's sexier, and the price it can command is higher when marketed as an "original" rather than simply a "multiple". Referring to editioned work as originals has since become more common, though it's still largely confined to the str eet art / ur ban art ghetto-niche market.โ Property developers and estate agents behave in a similar manner. They'll try their best to rebrand areas to make them more attractive to buyers. For the Londoners here, remember when London Fields was called West Hackney, or when South Clapham was just known as Streatham?
Original post here from the thread, BANKSY The Unauthorised Retrospective.
So an editioned Canvas, ie, Girl With Balloon edition of 25 spray painted by hand is not an original, i think many would disagree . Many would be wrong. Well, you know what I mean. Itโs hardly original if there are more than one, whatever the semantics. I think this is a nice curiosity. An aberration from his usual oeuvre. Having said that, Dismaland featured many โsculpturesโ, and his Guantanamo/Disneyland stunt, well, it depends whether bonuses have been paid. It could go either way. I wouldnโt thank you for it. Many would be wrong. Well, you know what I mean. Itโs hardly original if there are more than one, whatever the semantics. ... So, is an "original" a one-of-a-kind or is it an artwork handmade by the artist as opposed to a print? I have seen some galleries say "Editioned Original" which means thats its an original image but the image has been used in the same medium more than once. When I buy or sell art I always ask or put is it an edition 1/1 Unique if it is truly an original. Agreed. I take original to mean hand painted, as appose to printed. An original can then be part of an edition of originals, or unique. If the former, it should really be numbered. There follows a 2014 post by me regarding a shift in terminology over time. I first became aware of it with the Ban ksy market โ when stencil-sprayed multiples started being described by some resellers as "originals". At source, I think each of these works had been referred to more honestly and accurately as simply "a painting" or "a canvas" that was part of an edition. Based on your description above, the "More money than sense" evaluation seems overly harsh to me. Editioned works are by definition unoriginal. That woman's position is consistent with how the art world generally considers originals. It was with Ban ksy's stencil-based, editioned canvases (and only a few years ago, not necessarily when released) that I first noticed some sellers attempting to alter the meaning of "original". Others, especially new collectors, followed suit without question. The term was thus broadened and arguably corrupted in the context of Ban ksy, no longer strictly referring to one-of-a-kind pieces. Instead of the distinguishing factor being uniqueness, as it is in the wider art market, what constitutes an original with the Ban ksy market is now determined by medium. And so, for example, any one of 25 identical Ban ksy paintings is an original if it's a hand-sprayed stencil โ whether on canvas, board, paper, or other surface. The silly result (at least to my mind) is that an editioned work, a multiple and one of many, can simultaneously be deemed "original". This shift is market-driven. Those with vested financial interests care less about terminology. They're happy for definitions to change, to become less strict, provided they also benefit. That's the case with private collectors, gallerists, other dealers, and auction houses looking or potentially looking to sell. From a business perspective this makes complete sense. A painting is easier to offload, it's sexier, and the price it can command is higher when marketed as an "original" rather than simply a "multiple". Referring to editioned work as originals has since become more common, though it's still largely confined to the str eet art / ur ban art ghetto-niche market.โ Property developers and estate agents behave in a similar manner. They'll try their best to rebrand areas to make them more attractive to buyers. For the Londoners here, remember when London Fields was called West Hackney, or when South Clapham was just known as Streatham? Original post here from the thread, BANKSY The Unauthorised Retrospective.
|
|
moron
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,711
Likes โข 1,051
September 2017
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by moron on Mar 7, 2019 19:54:12 GMT 1, Not wrong saleroom definately the wrong sale.
Most of the artworks in this sale were created in the 60's 70's 80's and have nothing in common with urban or street or political art.
Not wrong saleroom definately the wrong sale.
Most of the artworks in this sale were created in the 60's 70's 80's and have nothing in common with urban or street or political art.
|
|
irl1
Full Member
Posts โข 9,274
Likes โข 9,381
December 2017
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by irl1 on Mar 7, 2019 21:44:19 GMT 1, I'm glad you don't have the spare cash for it, this should be hanging at your front door where everyone can see it At least it should keep away vampires. Or is it zombies? One can never be too careful. Its a pity you can't use it to keep Brexit away
I'm glad you don't have the spare cash for it, this should be hanging at your front door where everyone can see it At least it should keep away vampires. Or is it zombies? One can never be too careful. Its a pity you can't use it to keep Brexit away
|
|
moron
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,711
Likes โข 1,051
September 2017
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by moron on Mar 8, 2019 18:05:13 GMT 1, At least it should keep away vampires. Or is it zombies? One can never be too careful. Its a pity you can't use it to keep Brexit away An interesting concept.
No doubt someone will make something similar.
How about a crucifix made into an anchor with a heavy chain attached.
At least it should keep away vampires. Or is it zombies? One can never be too careful. Its a pity you can't use it to keep Brexit away An interesting concept. No doubt someone will make something similar. How about a crucifix made into an anchor with a heavy chain attached.
|
|
|
viz
New Member
Posts โข 264
Likes โข 225
September 2017
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by viz on Mar 8, 2019 22:16:15 GMT 1, Many would be wrong. Well, you know what I mean. Itโs hardly original if there are more than one, whatever the semantics. I think this is a nice curiosity. An aberration from his usual oeuvre. Having said that, Dismaland featured many โsculpturesโ, and his Guantanamo/Disneyland stunt, well, it depends whether bonuses have been paid. It could go either way. I wouldnโt thank you for it. So, is an "original" a one-of-a-kind or is it an artwork handmade by the artist as opposed to a print? Agreed. I take original to mean hand painted, as appose to printed. An original can then be part of an edition of originals, or unique. If the former, it should really be numbered. There follows a 2014 post by me regarding a shift in terminology over time. I first became aware of it with the Ban ksy market โ when stencil-sprayed multiples started being described by some resellers as "originals". At source, I think each of these works had been referred to more honestly and accurately as simply "a painting" or "a canvas" that was part of an edition. Based on your description above, the "More money than sense" evaluation seems overly harsh to me. Editioned works are by definition unoriginal. That woman's position is consistent with how the art world generally considers originals. It was with Ban ksy's stencil-based, editioned canvases (and only a few years ago, not necessarily when released) that I first noticed some sellers attempting to alter the meaning of "original". Others, especially new collectors, followed suit without question. The term was thus broadened and arguably corrupted in the context of Ban ksy, no longer strictly referring to one-of-a-kind pieces. Instead of the distinguishing factor being uniqueness, as it is in the wider art market, what constitutes an original with the Ban ksy market is now determined by medium. And so, for example, any one of 25 identical Ban ksy paintings is an original if it's a hand-sprayed stencil โ whether on canvas, board, paper, or other surface. The silly result (at least to my mind) is that an editioned work, a multiple and one of many, can simultaneously be deemed "original". This shift is market-driven. Those with vested financial interests care less about terminology. They're happy for definitions to change, to become less strict, provided they also benefit. That's the case with private collectors, gallerists, other dealers, and auction houses looking or potentially looking to sell. From a business perspective this makes complete sense. A painting is easier to offload, it's sexier, and the price it can command is higher when marketed as an "original" rather than simply a "multiple". Referring to editioned work as originals has since become more common, though it's still largely confined to the str eet art / ur ban art ghetto-niche market.โ Property developers and estate agents behave in a similar manner. They'll try their best to rebrand areas to make them more attractive to buyers. For the Londoners here, remember when London Fields was called West Hackney, or when South Clapham was just known as Streatham? Original post here from the thread, BANKSY The Unauthorised Retrospective.
In my opinion it's quite straightforward, even if for commercial purposes many use words changing their meaning.
There are words that refer to the medium (painting, photograph, sculpture, print, etc.), words that refer to the edition number (if the medium allows for multiple copies), and then there is original vs reproduction that refer to the artwork having been created as it is by the author or being a copy of another artwork (even if legit and authorized by the artist himself).
A woodcut in one copy would not be a print, just because there is just one copy? or a bronze sculpture would not be an original work of art just because there are several? No, it's not.
In the same way numbering and signing, that came into fashion just in recent times, are commercial ways to indicate the authenticity (well...) and the edition of a multiple, they have nothing to do with the artwork being an orginal work of art or being not.
Many would be wrong. Well, you know what I mean. Itโs hardly original if there are more than one, whatever the semantics. I think this is a nice curiosity. An aberration from his usual oeuvre. Having said that, Dismaland featured many โsculpturesโ, and his Guantanamo/Disneyland stunt, well, it depends whether bonuses have been paid. It could go either way. I wouldnโt thank you for it. So, is an "original" a one-of-a-kind or is it an artwork handmade by the artist as opposed to a print? Agreed. I take original to mean hand painted, as appose to printed. An original can then be part of an edition of originals, or unique. If the former, it should really be numbered. There follows a 2014 post by me regarding a shift in terminology over time. I first became aware of it with the Ban ksy market โ when stencil-sprayed multiples started being described by some resellers as "originals". At source, I think each of these works had been referred to more honestly and accurately as simply "a painting" or "a canvas" that was part of an edition. Based on your description above, the "More money than sense" evaluation seems overly harsh to me. Editioned works are by definition unoriginal. That woman's position is consistent with how the art world generally considers originals. It was with Ban ksy's stencil-based, editioned canvases (and only a few years ago, not necessarily when released) that I first noticed some sellers attempting to alter the meaning of "original". Others, especially new collectors, followed suit without question. The term was thus broadened and arguably corrupted in the context of Ban ksy, no longer strictly referring to one-of-a-kind pieces. Instead of the distinguishing factor being uniqueness, as it is in the wider art market, what constitutes an original with the Ban ksy market is now determined by medium. And so, for example, any one of 25 identical Ban ksy paintings is an original if it's a hand-sprayed stencil โ whether on canvas, board, paper, or other surface. The silly result (at least to my mind) is that an editioned work, a multiple and one of many, can simultaneously be deemed "original". This shift is market-driven. Those with vested financial interests care less about terminology. They're happy for definitions to change, to become less strict, provided they also benefit. That's the case with private collectors, gallerists, other dealers, and auction houses looking or potentially looking to sell. From a business perspective this makes complete sense. A painting is easier to offload, it's sexier, and the price it can command is higher when marketed as an "original" rather than simply a "multiple". Referring to editioned work as originals has since become more common, though it's still largely confined to the str eet art / ur ban art ghetto-niche market.โ Property developers and estate agents behave in a similar manner. They'll try their best to rebrand areas to make them more attractive to buyers. For the Londoners here, remember when London Fields was called West Hackney, or when South Clapham was just known as Streatham? Original post here from the thread, BANKSY The Unauthorised Retrospective. In my opinion it's quite straightforward, even if for commercial purposes many use words changing their meaning. There are words that refer to the medium (painting, photograph, sculpture, print, etc.), words that refer to the edition number (if the medium allows for multiple copies), and then there is original vs reproduction that refer to the artwork having been created as it is by the author or being a copy of another artwork (even if legit and authorized by the artist himself). A woodcut in one copy would not be a print, just because there is just one copy? or a bronze sculpture would not be an original work of art just because there are several? No, it's not. In the same way numbering and signing, that came into fashion just in recent times, are commercial ways to indicate the authenticity (well...) and the edition of a multiple, they have nothing to do with the artwork being an orginal work of art or being not.
|
|
19818914
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,337
Likes โข 1,029
October 2018
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by 19818914 on Mar 8, 2019 22:25:35 GMT 1, Contacted Bonham's specialist today to ask about the Hook. Was told there are quite a few post sales offers in and to have a chance I would have to offer 'comfortably' over the low estimate to have any chance! Shame, thought it could have been got for less than low estimate.
Would you still have to pay the buyers premium on top?
Contacted Bonham's specialist today to ask about the Hook. Was told there are quite a few post sales offers in and to have a chance I would have to offer 'comfortably' over the low estimate to have any chance! Shame, thought it could have been got for less than low estimate. Would you still have to pay the buyers premium on top?
|
|
.dappy
Full Member
Posts โข 9,841
Likes โข 9,460
December 2010
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by .dappy on Mar 8, 2019 22:47:56 GMT 1, Contacted Bonham's specialist today to ask about the Hook. Was told there are quite a few post sales offers in and to have a chance I would have to offer 'comfortably' over the low estimate to have any chance! Shame, thought it could have been got for less than low estimate. ... so in effect they are now holding a blind auction off line ... with the starting bid higher that the auction bid price ... brilliant ...
Contacted Bonham's specialist today to ask about the Hook. Was told there are quite a few post sales offers in and to have a chance I would have to offer 'comfortably' over the low estimate to have any chance! Shame, thought it could have been got for less than low estimate. ... so in effect they are now holding a blind auction off line ... with the starting bid higher that the auction bid price ... brilliant ...
|
|
Harveyn
Forum Guardian
Full Member
Posts โข 7,726
Likes โข 4,888
July 2007
Staff Member
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Harveyn on Mar 8, 2019 23:22:48 GMT 1, This dog will have his day.
I remember offering $100k plus fees for a Condo canvas at Sotheby's that failed to reach that low estimate. It was turned down. Several years later the canvas sold for several multiples and 5 years later its probably now worth $650k+
Not every piece that does not sell at auction is burnt, not even short term.
Bowies Basquiat sold in 1989 for $350k, Bowie bought it in 1995 for $132k and in 2016 it was sold for over $9m.
The seller and Bonhams are quite right not to sell this work cheap. IMO.
This dog will have his day.
I remember offering $100k plus fees for a Condo canvas at Sotheby's that failed to reach that low estimate. It was turned down. Several years later the canvas sold for several multiples and 5 years later its probably now worth $650k+
Not every piece that does not sell at auction is burnt, not even short term.
Bowies Basquiat sold in 1989 for $350k, Bowie bought it in 1995 for $132k and in 2016 it was sold for over $9m.
The seller and Bonhams are quite right not to sell this work cheap. IMO.
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,290
November 2009
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by lee3 on Mar 9, 2019 0:33:39 GMT 1, Contacted Bonham's specialist today to ask about the Hook. Was told there are quite a few post sales offers in and to have a chance I would have to offer 'comfortably' over the low estimate to have any chance! Shame, thought it could have been got for less than low estimate. Would you still have to pay the buyers premium on top? Yes, the house still collects the same buyers premium. It's typical for works to have significant post sale interest in high profile names. Picture dealers galore thinking they can pick off something inexpensive and offer in the gallery bringing welcome attention and hopes for a profit.
Reading Dappy's comment after yours, I, for one, would not call this a blind auction. The house continues to solicit bids and they will select the highest depending on many circumstances. Unlike blind auctions where you submit one bid, bidders may continue to raise offers. Sometimes they'll sell it to the first person who bids the reserve (plus premium), other times they'll work it for a couple weeks but this is generally with input from the consignor so not blind per se as once it gets above the reserve then all after sale bidders know that it will be sold.
As an example, I recall about a decade ago in the depths of the last correction a tiny red keep it real monkey on canvas passing at one of the houses with a 12-15k gbp estimate (form memory). I enquired as did a friend and at least another, unknown (to us) bidder. Once the friend and i put one and one together that we were bidding against each other, I bowed out. He kept at it and eventually lost to the other bidder at ~25k gbp from memory which was considerably more than the high estimate from the actual sale. Point being, I feel comfortable taking the house (if it's christie's, sotheby's, phillips or bonahms) at their word on a post sale transaction as they want the sale as does the consignor. It often behooves someone interested to just cut to the chase and ask at what price can the house sell it? Frankly, I'd be surprised if either of the banksy's that passed this week are returned to the consignors as post sale transactions on unsold lots are the norm these days.
Contacted Bonham's specialist today to ask about the Hook. Was told there are quite a few post sales offers in and to have a chance I would have to offer 'comfortably' over the low estimate to have any chance! Shame, thought it could have been got for less than low estimate. Would you still have to pay the buyers premium on top? Yes, the house still collects the same buyers premium. It's typical for works to have significant post sale interest in high profile names. Picture dealers galore thinking they can pick off something inexpensive and offer in the gallery bringing welcome attention and hopes for a profit. Reading Dappy's comment after yours, I, for one, would not call this a blind auction. The house continues to solicit bids and they will select the highest depending on many circumstances. Unlike blind auctions where you submit one bid, bidders may continue to raise offers. Sometimes they'll sell it to the first person who bids the reserve (plus premium), other times they'll work it for a couple weeks but this is generally with input from the consignor so not blind per se as once it gets above the reserve then all after sale bidders know that it will be sold. As an example, I recall about a decade ago in the depths of the last correction a tiny red keep it real monkey on canvas passing at one of the houses with a 12-15k gbp estimate (form memory). I enquired as did a friend and at least another, unknown (to us) bidder. Once the friend and i put one and one together that we were bidding against each other, I bowed out. He kept at it and eventually lost to the other bidder at ~25k gbp from memory which was considerably more than the high estimate from the actual sale. Point being, I feel comfortable taking the house (if it's christie's, sotheby's, phillips or bonahms) at their word on a post sale transaction as they want the sale as does the consignor. It often behooves someone interested to just cut to the chase and ask at what price can the house sell it? Frankly, I'd be surprised if either of the banksy's that passed this week are returned to the consignors as post sale transactions on unsold lots are the norm these days.
|
|
blerd
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,350
Likes โข 1,203
November 2016
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by blerd on Mar 9, 2019 1:04:31 GMT 1, Would you still have to pay the buyers premium on top? Yes, the house still collects the same buyers premium. It's typical for works to have significant post sale interest in high profile names. Picture dealers galore thinking they can pick off something inexpensive and offer in the gallery bringing welcome attention and hopes for a profit. Reading Dappy's comment after yours, I, for one, would not call this a blind auction. The house continues to solicit bids and they will select the highest depending on many circumstances. Unlike blind auctions where you submit one bid, bidders may continue to raise offers. Sometimes they'll sell it to the first person who bids the reserve (plus premium), other times they'll work it for a couple weeks but this is generally with input from the consignor so not blind per se as once it gets above the reserve then all after sale bidders know that it will be sold. As an example, I recall about a decade ago in the depths of the last correction a tiny red keep it real monkey on canvas passing at one of the houses with a 12-15k gbp estimate (form memory). I enquired as did a friend and at least another, unknown (to us) bidder. Once the friend and i put one and one together that we were bidding against each other, I bowed out. He kept at it and eventually lost to the other bidder at ~25k gbp from memory which was considerably more than the high estimate from the actual sale. Point being, I feel comfortable taking the house (if it's christie's, sotheby's, phillips or bonahms) at their word on a post sale transaction as they want the sale as does the consignor. It often behooves someone interested to just cut to the chase and ask at what price can the house sell it? Frankly, I'd be surprised if either of the banksy's that passed this week are returned to the consignors as post sale transactions on unsold lots are the norm these days. Thanks Lee, that was an interesting read. Its a shame the post sale isn't recorded for future reference.
Would you still have to pay the buyers premium on top? Yes, the house still collects the same buyers premium. It's typical for works to have significant post sale interest in high profile names. Picture dealers galore thinking they can pick off something inexpensive and offer in the gallery bringing welcome attention and hopes for a profit. Reading Dappy's comment after yours, I, for one, would not call this a blind auction. The house continues to solicit bids and they will select the highest depending on many circumstances. Unlike blind auctions where you submit one bid, bidders may continue to raise offers. Sometimes they'll sell it to the first person who bids the reserve (plus premium), other times they'll work it for a couple weeks but this is generally with input from the consignor so not blind per se as once it gets above the reserve then all after sale bidders know that it will be sold. As an example, I recall about a decade ago in the depths of the last correction a tiny red keep it real monkey on canvas passing at one of the houses with a 12-15k gbp estimate (form memory). I enquired as did a friend and at least another, unknown (to us) bidder. Once the friend and i put one and one together that we were bidding against each other, I bowed out. He kept at it and eventually lost to the other bidder at ~25k gbp from memory which was considerably more than the high estimate from the actual sale. Point being, I feel comfortable taking the house (if it's christie's, sotheby's, phillips or bonahms) at their word on a post sale transaction as they want the sale as does the consignor. It often behooves someone interested to just cut to the chase and ask at what price can the house sell it? Frankly, I'd be surprised if either of the banksy's that passed this week are returned to the consignors as post sale transactions on unsold lots are the norm these days. Thanks Lee, that was an interesting read. Its a shame the post sale isn't recorded for future reference.
|
|
19818914
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,337
Likes โข 1,029
October 2018
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by 19818914 on Mar 9, 2019 1:05:11 GMT 1, Would you still have to pay the buyers premium on top? Yes, the house still collects the same buyers premium. It's typical for works to have significant post sale interest in high profile names. Picture dealers galore thinking they can pick off something inexpensive and offer in the gallery bringing welcome attention and hopes for a profit. Reading Dappy's comment after yours, I, for one, would not call this a blind auction. The house continues to solicit bids and they will select the highest depending on many circumstances. Unlike blind auctions where you submit one bid, bidders may continue to raise offers. Sometimes they'll sell it to the first person who bids the reserve (plus premium), other times they'll work it for a couple weeks but this is generally with input from the consignor so not blind per se as once it gets above the reserve then all after sale bidders know that it will be sold. As an example, I recall about a decade ago in the depths of the last correction a tiny red keep it real monkey on canvas passing at one of the houses with a 12-15k gbp estimate (form memory). I enquired as did a friend and at least another, unknown (to us) bidder. Once the friend and i put one and one together that we were bidding against each other, I bowed out. He kept at it and eventually lost to the other bidder at ~25k gbp from memory which was considerably more than the high estimate from the actual sale. Point being, I feel comfortable taking the house (if it's christie's, sotheby's, phillips or bonahms) at their word on a post sale transaction as they want the sale as does the consignor. It often behooves someone interested to just cut to the chase and ask at what price can the house sell it? Frankly, I'd be surprised if either of the banksy's that passed this week are returned to the consignors as post sale transactions on unsold lots are the norm these days.
Thank you for explaining that. Now if anyone who owns this cross figurine has a high resolution photographs to share, could you please dm me? I appreciate it.
Would you still have to pay the buyers premium on top? Yes, the house still collects the same buyers premium. It's typical for works to have significant post sale interest in high profile names. Picture dealers galore thinking they can pick off something inexpensive and offer in the gallery bringing welcome attention and hopes for a profit. Reading Dappy's comment after yours, I, for one, would not call this a blind auction. The house continues to solicit bids and they will select the highest depending on many circumstances. Unlike blind auctions where you submit one bid, bidders may continue to raise offers. Sometimes they'll sell it to the first person who bids the reserve (plus premium), other times they'll work it for a couple weeks but this is generally with input from the consignor so not blind per se as once it gets above the reserve then all after sale bidders know that it will be sold. As an example, I recall about a decade ago in the depths of the last correction a tiny red keep it real monkey on canvas passing at one of the houses with a 12-15k gbp estimate (form memory). I enquired as did a friend and at least another, unknown (to us) bidder. Once the friend and i put one and one together that we were bidding against each other, I bowed out. He kept at it and eventually lost to the other bidder at ~25k gbp from memory which was considerably more than the high estimate from the actual sale. Point being, I feel comfortable taking the house (if it's christie's, sotheby's, phillips or bonahms) at their word on a post sale transaction as they want the sale as does the consignor. It often behooves someone interested to just cut to the chase and ask at what price can the house sell it? Frankly, I'd be surprised if either of the banksy's that passed this week are returned to the consignors as post sale transactions on unsold lots are the norm these days. Thank you for explaining that. Now if anyone who owns this cross figurine has a high resolution photographs to share, could you please dm me? I appreciate it.
|
|
blerd
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,350
Likes โข 1,203
November 2016
|
Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by blerd on Mar 9, 2019 1:07:25 GMT 1, This dog will have his day. I remember offering $100k plus fees for a Condo canvas at Sotheby's that failed to reach that low estimate. It was turned down. Several years later the canvas sold for several multiples and 5 years later its probably now worth $650k+ Not every piece that does not sell at auction is burnt, not even short term. Bowies Basquiat sold in 1989 for $350k, Bowie bought it in 1995 for $132k and in 2016 it was sold for over $9m. The seller and Bonhams are quite right not to sell this work cheap. IMO. Did you manage to get a Condo canvas elsewhere? Amazing Artist.
This dog will have his day. I remember offering $100k plus fees for a Condo canvas at Sotheby's that failed to reach that low estimate. It was turned down. Several years later the canvas sold for several multiples and 5 years later its probably now worth $650k+ Not every piece that does not sell at auction is burnt, not even short term. Bowies Basquiat sold in 1989 for $350k, Bowie bought it in 1995 for $132k and in 2016 it was sold for over $9m. The seller and Bonhams are quite right not to sell this work cheap. IMO. Did you manage to get a Condo canvas elsewhere? Amazing Artist.
|
|