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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by snausages on Sept 19, 2008 17:21:40 GMT 1, Auctions show the rest of us what the world is prepared to pay for an item.
Perspective I guess. It's like the housing market, lots of people bought houses with the sole intention to resell. Every time a house is sold a lot of fees are usually incurred, especially if you're not paying 100% cash. Those fees in my perspective add 'fluff' or in my opinion completely unsubstantiated cost to the house without adding any real value to it. It's part of the reason the housing market has tanked, this is kind of how I see the art market, especially stuff that is being resold rather quickly. It's hard to say how much a nice Rembrandt might fetch, but I think much of the stuff in this auction has settled. It's just reshuffling for Bonhams gain.
Auctions show the rest of us what the world is prepared to pay for an item.
Perspective I guess. It's like the housing market, lots of people bought houses with the sole intention to resell. Every time a house is sold a lot of fees are usually incurred, especially if you're not paying 100% cash. Those fees in my perspective add 'fluff' or in my opinion completely unsubstantiated cost to the house without adding any real value to it. It's part of the reason the housing market has tanked, this is kind of how I see the art market, especially stuff that is being resold rather quickly. It's hard to say how much a nice Rembrandt might fetch, but I think much of the stuff in this auction has settled. It's just reshuffling for Bonhams gain.
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RBK
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lee3
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by lee3 on Sept 19, 2008 17:27:25 GMT 1, Snausages:
Are you saying, that you expect to walk into a dealer and pay 30% less for a comparable work of art since there is no auction house involved? I'm just trying to comprehend what you mean by fluff? From my vantage point, manipulated markets aside, I still expect to buy at the prevailing auction market rate and those are the dealers with whom I choose to spend my money (for auctionable artists of course).
Snausages:
Are you saying, that you expect to walk into a dealer and pay 30% less for a comparable work of art since there is no auction house involved? I'm just trying to comprehend what you mean by fluff? From my vantage point, manipulated markets aside, I still expect to buy at the prevailing auction market rate and those are the dealers with whom I choose to spend my money (for auctionable artists of course).
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by snausages on Sept 19, 2008 18:17:16 GMT 1, Well what I pay at the dealer isn't my point. But personally I've only ever bought through dealers, publishers, ebay and private sales and well sure I do think it's less than what I would have to pay at auction. But more the point I'm making is that there are other avenues to sell this stuff aside from Bonhams. I've gotten a lot of my collection through private sales, deals with other collectors and associates and sometimes people I've met on forums, trades, ebay etc. including a lot of nice pieces and original paintings. Obviously an auction house is the best option for higher end items but despite its benefit as being a bellweather for finding out what people are willing to pay for something, the cost of that item is now increased by roughly 30% through auction fees which in my opinion is pretty steep. That's a huge spread that's been exacerbated even more by buyers premiums being increased to 25%. And the other point is that the rapid fliipping and tirnaround on these things also adds to the fluff, it's a little different when things sit for years imo.
Although I do see some people around here with great offers it's frustrating to see so many people around here bitten by the auction bug and think they can get just as much money in a private sale as something goes for at Bonhams or are unwilling to sell privately because they think things must go through an auction house. There are other options sometimes.
I think my housing analogy is pretty clear although the dynamics here may be slightly different. But I wouldn't be surprised if the outcome is similar.
Well what I pay at the dealer isn't my point. But personally I've only ever bought through dealers, publishers, ebay and private sales and well sure I do think it's less than what I would have to pay at auction. But more the point I'm making is that there are other avenues to sell this stuff aside from Bonhams. I've gotten a lot of my collection through private sales, deals with other collectors and associates and sometimes people I've met on forums, trades, ebay etc. including a lot of nice pieces and original paintings. Obviously an auction house is the best option for higher end items but despite its benefit as being a bellweather for finding out what people are willing to pay for something, the cost of that item is now increased by roughly 30% through auction fees which in my opinion is pretty steep. That's a huge spread that's been exacerbated even more by buyers premiums being increased to 25%. And the other point is that the rapid fliipping and tirnaround on these things also adds to the fluff, it's a little different when things sit for years imo.
Although I do see some people around here with great offers it's frustrating to see so many people around here bitten by the auction bug and think they can get just as much money in a private sale as something goes for at Bonhams or are unwilling to sell privately because they think things must go through an auction house. There are other options sometimes.
I think my housing analogy is pretty clear although the dynamics here may be slightly different. But I wouldn't be surprised if the outcome is similar.
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stjohn
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by stjohn on Sept 19, 2008 18:29:23 GMT 1, Yes, but when someone bids at auction they know the fees will be added and what the ultimate price will be. That is why the total outlay by the buyer is the "market price". Theoretically, after the auction dealers will try and sell at that market price. I can't see any fluff. The auction bidder knew what he had to pay. No bid, no sale.
Yes, but when someone bids at auction they know the fees will be added and what the ultimate price will be. That is why the total outlay by the buyer is the "market price". Theoretically, after the auction dealers will try and sell at that market price. I can't see any fluff. The auction bidder knew what he had to pay. No bid, no sale.
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Gallery Grace
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by Gallery Grace on Sept 19, 2008 19:34:50 GMT 1, Cool group of items. But I get a strange unemotional felling when I browsed the catalogue. Sort of like "these image again". same as that I'd like skankys jackson though :-)
Yeah that is a stunner, the strongest Neate put into auction to date.
Cool group of items. But I get a strange unemotional felling when I browsed the catalogue. Sort of like "these image again". same as that I'd like skankys jackson though :-) Yeah that is a stunner, the strongest Neate put into auction to date. |
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by snausages on Sept 19, 2008 19:38:48 GMT 1, Yes, but when someone bids at auction they know the fees will be added and what the ultimate price will be. That is why the total outlay by the buyer is the "market price". Theoretically, after the auction dealers will try and sell at that market price. I can't see any fluff. The auction bidder knew what he had to pay. No bid, no sale.
Here's my point. Again, my housing analogy for example. A flipper buys a new condo at 100k, let's guess that 10% in fees are assumed in closing the deal. The house now cost 110k. Flipper puts house up for sale again and let's say he even decides he justs wants out and is willing to break even. Now the new buyer has to pay another 10% in fees on the 110 . So cost is now 121k. The way I see it that extra 11k is all fluff. At least that's how I describe it. This goes on and on until something breaks and someone has to take a loss.
Yes, but when someone bids at auction they know the fees will be added and what the ultimate price will be. That is why the total outlay by the buyer is the "market price". Theoretically, after the auction dealers will try and sell at that market price. I can't see any fluff. The auction bidder knew what he had to pay. No bid, no sale. Here's my point. Again, my housing analogy for example. A flipper buys a new condo at 100k, let's guess that 10% in fees are assumed in closing the deal. The house now cost 110k. Flipper puts house up for sale again and let's say he even decides he justs wants out and is willing to break even. Now the new buyer has to pay another 10% in fees on the 110 . So cost is now 121k. The way I see it that extra 11k is all fluff. At least that's how I describe it. This goes on and on until something breaks and someone has to take a loss. |
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by alsbabar on Sept 19, 2008 19:43:53 GMT 1, First we had graeme with his jumper, now we have snausages's flipper buying a house - whats next lassie the dog buying a sports car analogy?
art is simply worth what someone is prepared to pay for it
First we had graeme with his jumper, now we have snausages's flipper buying a house - whats next lassie the dog buying a sports car analogy?
art is simply worth what someone is prepared to pay for it
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stjohn
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by stjohn on Sept 19, 2008 20:04:07 GMT 1, Here's my point. Again, my housing analogy for example. A flipper buys a new condo at 100k, let's guess that 10% in fees are assumed in closing the deal. The house now cost 110k. Flipper puts house up for sale again and let's say he even decides he justs wants out and is willing to break even. Now the new buyer has to pay another 10% in fees on the 110 . So cost is now 121k. The way I see it that extra 11k is all fluff. At least that's how I describe it. This goes on and on until something breaks and someone has to take a loss.
Right, I see. So flipper was happy to pay 110k, and new buyer is happy to pay 121k. If he (new buyer) wants to sell the next day and price becomes 132k or whatever, his buyer either buys or doesn't buy. If he doesnt but = was too much. If he does buy = happy to pay that much and evidence of a market price with willing buyer and willing seller...
Here's my point. Again, my housing analogy for example. A flipper buys a new condo at 100k, let's guess that 10% in fees are assumed in closing the deal. The house now cost 110k. Flipper puts house up for sale again and let's say he even decides he justs wants out and is willing to break even. Now the new buyer has to pay another 10% in fees on the 110 . So cost is now 121k. The way I see it that extra 11k is all fluff. At least that's how I describe it. This goes on and on until something breaks and someone has to take a loss. Right, I see. So flipper was happy to pay 110k, and new buyer is happy to pay 121k. If he (new buyer) wants to sell the next day and price becomes 132k or whatever, his buyer either buys or doesn't buy. If he doesnt but = was too much. If he does buy = happy to pay that much and evidence of a market price with willing buyer and willing seller... |
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by snausages on Sept 19, 2008 20:21:38 GMT 1, Yes, the billions of dollars spent in transaction costs are one part of the equation that have forced the price of housing upwards until the charade came to an end. Why do you think all the mortgage copanies are in trouble? The more loans they give out and more closing costs they collect the more money they make. But they were so greedy they couldn't see the end.
And again it's just really how you want to look at it but of course the buyer knows about the premium and is willing to pay what he bids plus premium. But if you buy a painting at Bonhams for 100k you can brag and tell all your friends that you have a 100k painting. But the reality is if you resold it next year at auction for 100k you're taking home 70k. The 30k is what I'm calling fluff. Unless of course the painting doubles again and everything comes up roses...
My point is that my collection that I've gathered I've done so privately to avoid those fees and it benefits me, it benefits the people I bought it from and it benefits whomever I'm going to sell them to if I ever do sell because I don't have all that auction house overhead I need to make up.
art is simply worth what someone is prepared to pay for it
Yup. Pretty deep stuff there.
Yes, the billions of dollars spent in transaction costs are one part of the equation that have forced the price of housing upwards until the charade came to an end. Why do you think all the mortgage copanies are in trouble? The more loans they give out and more closing costs they collect the more money they make. But they were so greedy they couldn't see the end.
And again it's just really how you want to look at it but of course the buyer knows about the premium and is willing to pay what he bids plus premium. But if you buy a painting at Bonhams for 100k you can brag and tell all your friends that you have a 100k painting. But the reality is if you resold it next year at auction for 100k you're taking home 70k. The 30k is what I'm calling fluff. Unless of course the painting doubles again and everything comes up roses...
My point is that my collection that I've gathered I've done so privately to avoid those fees and it benefits me, it benefits the people I bought it from and it benefits whomever I'm going to sell them to if I ever do sell because I don't have all that auction house overhead I need to make up.
art is simply worth what someone is prepared to pay for it
Yup. Pretty deep stuff there.
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by griffermans on Sept 19, 2008 21:29:29 GMT 1, For me Bonhams Nick Walkers are very cleverly priced!
For me Bonhams Nick Walkers are very cleverly priced!
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f5ers
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by f5ers on Sept 19, 2008 22:32:26 GMT 1, For me Bonhams Nick Walkers are very cleverly priced!
I'm suspecting there are key players in deciding what goes into the Bonhams auction and the subsequent prices. They probably also work for rich clients acquiring pieces for them and receive a percentage for buying for their clients... In fact maybe even buying their own lots for their own clients and also recieving a bonus from their clients. This Keeps the market at nicely inflated prices, creates hype for the artists they promote and makes a few people alot of money.
For me Bonhams Nick Walkers are very cleverly priced! I'm suspecting there are key players in deciding what goes into the Bonhams auction and the subsequent prices. They probably also work for rich clients acquiring pieces for them and receive a percentage for buying for their clients... In fact maybe even buying their own lots for their own clients and also recieving a bonus from their clients. This Keeps the market at nicely inflated prices, creates hype for the artists they promote and makes a few people alot of money. |
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skanky
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by skanky on Sept 19, 2008 23:14:00 GMT 1, same as that I'd like skankys jackson though :-) Yeah that is a stunner, the strongest Neate put into auction to date.
This was a last minute decision for me that was only taken a couple of weeks ago and the decision was not taken lightly. My Choe commission arrived and I recently bought Fragil which is also a red portrait. On a positive note I think its important that a strong Neate is shown to a wider audience which imo this is. Neates work never ceases to amaze me and I hope that if it sells whoever gets it enjoys it.
same as that I'd like skankys jackson though :-) Yeah that is a stunner, the strongest Neate put into auction to date. This was a last minute decision for me that was only taken a couple of weeks ago and the decision was not taken lightly. My Choe commission arrived and I recently bought Fragil which is also a red portrait. On a positive note I think its important that a strong Neate is shown to a wider audience which imo this is. Neates work never ceases to amaze me and I hope that if it sells whoever gets it enjoys it. |
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Billy Sport
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by Billy Sport on Sept 20, 2008 0:12:37 GMT 1, love that denning 'Fucked Up Celebrity Portrait #1', would love to have that...
love that denning 'Fucked Up Celebrity Portrait #1', would love to have that...
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by mammal2 on Sept 20, 2008 0:19:21 GMT 1, Never got Denning myself.
Never got Denning myself.
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by Coach on Sept 20, 2008 0:48:02 GMT 1, Never got Denning myself.
What's not to like - tho' not the best photo I admit.
Never got Denning myself. What's not to like - tho' not the best photo I admit. |
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by graeme501 on Sept 20, 2008 2:21:55 GMT 1, some tasty neate's in the auction and the micallef's are out of this world
some tasty neate's in the auction and the micallef's are out of this world
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skelly
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by skelly on Sept 20, 2008 6:27:02 GMT 1, Bonhams looks great top of the line..
I'm not so sure about Dreweatts, my favorite part is the description of a neate street piece "part of a series Adam displayed on the streets of .." haha
Bonhams looks great top of the line..
I'm not so sure about Dreweatts, my favorite part is the description of a neate street piece "part of a series Adam displayed on the streets of .." haha
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BME
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by BME on Sept 20, 2008 7:42:02 GMT 1, Both Bonhams and Dreweatts have a strong line up IMO. I particularly love the Monkey Detonator...
Both Bonhams and Dreweatts have a strong line up IMO. I particularly love the Monkey Detonator...
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Cocteau 101
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by Cocteau 101 on Sept 20, 2008 10:38:10 GMT 1, The Bonhams catalogue in particular looks very strong, could be a breakthrough auction.
The Bonhams catalogue in particular looks very strong, could be a breakthrough auction.
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by worlddomination on Sept 20, 2008 16:32:03 GMT 1, Wow I'm loving the Os Gemeos piece on the front of the Dreweatts catalogue, should be a great sale and the Bonhams one!
Wow I'm loving the Os Gemeos piece on the front of the Dreweatts catalogue, should be a great sale and the Bonhams one!
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jB
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by jB on Sept 20, 2008 16:42:54 GMT 1, I believe that same Os was offered here at one time for swap -- I believe looking for a Neate -- I do agree however that its lovely
Also, Is this the first Herakut to go through an auction house?
I believe that same Os was offered here at one time for swap -- I believe looking for a Neate -- I do agree however that its lovely
Also, Is this the first Herakut to go through an auction house?
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jakek
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by jakek on Sept 20, 2008 16:48:16 GMT 1, Also, Is this the first Herakut to go through an auction house?
There's a mouth in the dreweatts and that brilliant canvas in the Bonham's. I see campbarbossa has the original sketch of this canvas on the website - i think i prefer the sketch (so if you every want to sell it frankie, give me a shout!)
Also, Is this the first Herakut to go through an auction house? There's a mouth in the dreweatts and that brilliant canvas in the Bonham's. I see campbarbossa has the original sketch of this canvas on the website - i think i prefer the sketch (so if you every want to sell it frankie, give me a shout!) |
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jB
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by jB on Sept 20, 2008 16:56:03 GMT 1, thanks Jakekenny -- I guess I should have rephrased that -- are these the first herakuts to go through an auction house?
thanks Jakekenny -- I guess I should have rephrased that -- are these the first herakuts to go through an auction house?
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jakek
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by jakek on Sept 20, 2008 17:09:39 GMT 1, thanks Jakekenny -- I guess I should have rephrased that -- are these the first herakuts to go through an auction house?
Sorry, wasn't wanting to sound pedantic - was just pointing out that they both had one...although the Bonhams piece is in a different league.
They're the first ones i've seen at auction. I also see that both auctions have a Word to Mother piece too. Should be interesting to see what all 4 of these go for. For the sake of being able to pick up more in the future i hope they don't go too crazy.
(and if anyone did have a WTM for sale please let me know, unsurprisingly i've had no replies from my WTB WTM post)
thanks Jakekenny -- I guess I should have rephrased that -- are these the first herakuts to go through an auction house? Sorry, wasn't wanting to sound pedantic - was just pointing out that they both had one...although the Bonhams piece is in a different league. They're the first ones i've seen at auction. I also see that both auctions have a Word to Mother piece too. Should be interesting to see what all 4 of these go for. For the sake of being able to pick up more in the future i hope they don't go too crazy. (and if anyone did have a WTM for sale please let me know, unsurprisingly i've had no replies from my WTB WTM post) |
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jB
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by jB on Sept 20, 2008 17:22:53 GMT 1, No sweat JK -- I just havent seen anything else by them in an auction -- good luck with the WTM, I havent seen anything
No sweat JK -- I just havent seen anything else by them in an auction -- good luck with the WTM, I havent seen anything
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skanky
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by skanky on Sept 20, 2008 17:51:53 GMT 1, The Micallef Girl WithBallons is a bit special.
The Micallef Girl WithBallons is a bit special.
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motor
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by motor on Sept 20, 2008 17:58:28 GMT 1, The Micallef Girl WithBallons is a bit special.
Agree.
I would say his best to date (in the auction).
The Micallef Girl WithBallons is a bit special. Agree. I would say his best to date (in the auction). |
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Richard
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by Richard on Sept 20, 2008 18:01:42 GMT 1, Some lovely pieces in these sales! Especially the Red Jackson Neate... his best piece IMO.
Some lovely pieces in these sales! Especially the Red Jackson Neate... his best piece IMO.
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