saucyjack
New Member
Posts • 197
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November 2015
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Price Manipulation, by saucyjack on Jan 2, 2016 9:31:36 GMT 1, It's not just for stocks anymore!
Any of you want to chat about schemes and scams and how they relate to the artists we love?
It's not just for stocks anymore!
Any of you want to chat about schemes and scams and how they relate to the artists we love?
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pingoo
New Member
Posts • 427
Likes • 320
December 2014
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Price Manipulation, by pingoo on Jan 2, 2016 10:32:40 GMT 1, I don't think there is much to talk about. I also collect guenine japanese blades, there is also speculation, hyped smiths, counterfeits blades, fake COA, unscrupulous dealers, etc...
Art is a market like any other. We have to learn from bad experiences and make our way in any collecting hobby.
I don't think there is much to talk about. I also collect guenine japanese blades, there is also speculation, hyped smiths, counterfeits blades, fake COA, unscrupulous dealers, etc...
Art is a market like any other. We have to learn from bad experiences and make our way in any collecting hobby.
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Poster Bob
Junior Member
Posts • 5,868
Likes • 5,480
September 2013
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Price Manipulation, by Poster Bob on Jan 2, 2016 11:01:01 GMT 1, That's really an oversimplification. The art market has many parallels with the already-crashed housing market and that so much money could be contained within one market without stricter regulation is amazing. We're living through the times of the Wild Wild West and many people don't even realize it.
That's really an oversimplification. The art market has many parallels with the already-crashed housing market and that so much money could be contained within one market without stricter regulation is amazing. We're living through the times of the Wild Wild West and many people don't even realize it.
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saucyjack
New Member
Posts • 197
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November 2015
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Price Manipulation, by saucyjack on Jan 2, 2016 20:07:06 GMT 1, I just got to thinking that the art world, a billion industry (2.7 Billion in 2015), one which many people use as an investment tool, is completely unregulated.
There are obviously different levels to this. An opportunity for every budget! What is funny to me is that the vast majority (maybe 90%) of the artists hyped here and elsewhere are the equivalent of penny stocks that will be worthless in the long run.
Now, I know that many people buy art just to have pretty pictures on their walls and care nothing about long term value. That's fine. I'm speaking about the people who are buying art as investments.
I just got to thinking that the art world, a billion industry (2.7 Billion in 2015), one which many people use as an investment tool, is completely unregulated.
There are obviously different levels to this. An opportunity for every budget! What is funny to me is that the vast majority (maybe 90%) of the artists hyped here and elsewhere are the equivalent of penny stocks that will be worthless in the long run.
Now, I know that many people buy art just to have pretty pictures on their walls and care nothing about long term value. That's fine. I'm speaking about the people who are buying art as investments.
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saucyjack
New Member
Posts • 197
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November 2015
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Ottomatik
Junior Member
Posts • 4,229
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March 2009
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Price Manipulation, by Ottomatik on Jan 2, 2016 20:47:27 GMT 1, I just find it easier and healthier to focus on my own collection and not be concerned about the art other people are investing their money.
I don't have a collection that will buy me a condo in Palm Cove AUS when I'm 65. However, I do have a collection that's on my wall(s) that gives me smiles everyday! Totally worth it!
I just find it easier and healthier to focus on my own collection and not be concerned about the art other people are investing their money.
I don't have a collection that will buy me a condo in Palm Cove AUS when I'm 65. However, I do have a collection that's on my wall(s) that gives me smiles everyday! Totally worth it!
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saucyjack
New Member
Posts • 197
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November 2015
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Price Manipulation, by saucyjack on Jan 2, 2016 21:02:59 GMT 1, Life is indeed easier when we cruise through it, not reflecting on our own lives and the world around us. I, for one, enjoy reflecting on my own behaviors and motivations. The same for the world around me. I'm a critical thinker. You may feel it is an unhealthy endeavor, I disagree.
I am happy that you are happy with the art that is hanging on your walls, and potentially stored elsewhere. That is art appreciation in it's purest form. This thread is about a different kind of art appreciation, capital appreciation (or lack thereof).
Life is indeed easier when we cruise through it, not reflecting on our own lives and the world around us. I, for one, enjoy reflecting on my own behaviors and motivations. The same for the world around me. I'm a critical thinker. You may feel it is an unhealthy endeavor, I disagree.
I am happy that you are happy with the art that is hanging on your walls, and potentially stored elsewhere. That is art appreciation in it's purest form. This thread is about a different kind of art appreciation, capital appreciation (or lack thereof).
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Dungle
Junior Member
Posts • 4,007
Likes • 5,172
June 2011
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Price Manipulation, by Dungle on Jan 2, 2016 21:10:07 GMT 1, Life is indeed easier when we cruise through it, not reflecting on our own lives and the world around us. I, for one, enjoy reflecting on my own behaviors and motivations. The same for the world around me. I'm a critical thinker. You may feel it is an unhealthy endeavor, I disagree. I am happy that you are happy with the art that is hanging on your walls, and potentially stored elsewhere. That is art appreciation in it's purest form. This thread is about a different kind of art appreciation, capital appreciation (or lack thereof). Do you buy art purely for investment?
Life is indeed easier when we cruise through it, not reflecting on our own lives and the world around us. I, for one, enjoy reflecting on my own behaviors and motivations. The same for the world around me. I'm a critical thinker. You may feel it is an unhealthy endeavor, I disagree. I am happy that you are happy with the art that is hanging on your walls, and potentially stored elsewhere. That is art appreciation in it's purest form. This thread is about a different kind of art appreciation, capital appreciation (or lack thereof). Do you buy art purely for investment?
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saucyjack
New Member
Posts • 197
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November 2015
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Price Manipulation, by saucyjack on Jan 2, 2016 21:18:12 GMT 1, No. But I have in certain circumstances.
That isn't what this thread is about. This thread is about price manipulation and the unregulated multi-billion dollar art industry.
As I've said previously, but many of you have seemed to gloss over, is that there are many people who buy art purely for enjoyment. To make the walls of their home more interesting. That's great. I am not contesting that or attempting to question their motivations.
It is naive to think everyone on this board is in it for money, or vice-versa. Like in life, it's probably a good mix.
Feel free to contribute to the discussion or judge my motivations for creating this thread.
I'm here to answer all your questions.
No. But I have in certain circumstances. That isn't what this thread is about. This thread is about price manipulation and the unregulated multi-billion dollar art industry. As I've said previously, but many of you have seemed to gloss over, is that there are many people who buy art purely for enjoyment. To make the walls of their home more interesting. That's great. I am not contesting that or attempting to question their motivations. It is naive to think everyone on this board is in it for money, or vice-versa. Like in life, it's probably a good mix. Feel free to contribute to the discussion or judge my motivations for creating this thread. I'm here to answer all your questions.
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tartarus
Junior Member
Posts • 2,628
Likes • 2,169
February 2013
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Price Manipulation, by tartarus on Jan 2, 2016 21:40:33 GMT 1, No. But I have in certain circumstances. That isn't what this thread is about. This thread is about price manipulation and the unregulated multi-billion dollar art industry. As I've said previously, but many of you have seemed to gloss over, is that there are many people who buy art purely for enjoyment. To make the walls of their home more interesting. That's great. I am not contesting that or attempting to question their motivations. It is naive to think everyone on this board is in it for money, or vice-versa. Like in life, it's probably a good mix. Feel free to contribute to the discussion or judge my motivations for creating this thread. I'm here to answer all your questions.
You sure your not here to massage your own ego?
Just asking, as your such a reflective critical thinker, I'm interested in your thoughts.
No. But I have in certain circumstances. That isn't what this thread is about. This thread is about price manipulation and the unregulated multi-billion dollar art industry. As I've said previously, but many of you have seemed to gloss over, is that there are many people who buy art purely for enjoyment. To make the walls of their home more interesting. That's great. I am not contesting that or attempting to question their motivations. It is naive to think everyone on this board is in it for money, or vice-versa. Like in life, it's probably a good mix. Feel free to contribute to the discussion or judge my motivations for creating this thread. I'm here to answer all your questions. You sure your not here to massage your own ego? Just asking, as your such a reflective critical thinker, I'm interested in your thoughts.
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saucyjack
New Member
Posts • 197
Likes • 74
November 2015
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Price Manipulation, by saucyjack on Jan 2, 2016 21:47:32 GMT 1, No. But I have in certain circumstances. That isn't what this thread is about. This thread is about price manipulation and the unregulated multi-billion dollar art industry. As I've said previously, but many of you have seemed to gloss over, is that there are many people who buy art purely for enjoyment. To make the walls of their home more interesting. That's great. I am not contesting that or attempting to question their motivations. It is naive to think everyone on this board is in it for money, or vice-versa. Like in life, it's probably a good mix. Feel free to contribute to the discussion or judge my motivations for creating this thread. I'm here to answer all your questions. You sure your not here to massage your own ego? Just asking, as your such a reflective critical thinker, I'm interested in your thoughts. Massage my own ego, here? Where the majority of the feedback has been less than supportive? No, I'd say I am not here to massage my own ego.
I suspect there are members here on this forum who are interested in the sociological or financial aspects of the contemporary, urban (or street art) world. I would like to have a critical discussion with those people.
Clearly, you are not one of those members. Feel free to use the Block function as 11 proposed elsewhere, and as if by magic, I will disappear.
No. But I have in certain circumstances. That isn't what this thread is about. This thread is about price manipulation and the unregulated multi-billion dollar art industry. As I've said previously, but many of you have seemed to gloss over, is that there are many people who buy art purely for enjoyment. To make the walls of their home more interesting. That's great. I am not contesting that or attempting to question their motivations. It is naive to think everyone on this board is in it for money, or vice-versa. Like in life, it's probably a good mix. Feel free to contribute to the discussion or judge my motivations for creating this thread. I'm here to answer all your questions. You sure your not here to massage your own ego? Just asking, as your such a reflective critical thinker, I'm interested in your thoughts. Massage my own ego, here? Where the majority of the feedback has been less than supportive? No, I'd say I am not here to massage my own ego. I suspect there are members here on this forum who are interested in the sociological or financial aspects of the contemporary, urban (or street art) world. I would like to have a critical discussion with those people. Clearly, you are not one of those members. Feel free to use the Block function as 11 proposed elsewhere, and as if by magic, I will disappear.
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tartarus
Junior Member
Posts • 2,628
Likes • 2,169
February 2013
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Price Manipulation, by tartarus on Jan 2, 2016 22:19:56 GMT 1, You sure your not here to massage your own ego? Just asking, as your such a reflective critical thinker, I'm interested in your thoughts. Massage my own ego, here? Where the majority of the feedback has been less than supportive? No, I'd say I am not here to massage my own ego. I suspect there are members here on this forum who are interested in the sociological or financial aspects of the contemporary, urban (or street art) world. I would like to have a critical discussion with those people. Clearly, you are not one of those members. Feel free to use the Block function as 11 proposed elsewhere, and as if by magic, I will disappear.
You did say you were here to answer questions.
And I doubt your much of a critical thinker. You blew my question away in seconds without giving it a thought and allowing yourself to trip on your own bias. That isn't critical thinking.
You sure your not here to massage your own ego? Just asking, as your such a reflective critical thinker, I'm interested in your thoughts. Massage my own ego, here? Where the majority of the feedback has been less than supportive? No, I'd say I am not here to massage my own ego. I suspect there are members here on this forum who are interested in the sociological or financial aspects of the contemporary, urban (or street art) world. I would like to have a critical discussion with those people. Clearly, you are not one of those members. Feel free to use the Block function as 11 proposed elsewhere, and as if by magic, I will disappear. You did say you were here to answer questions. And I doubt your much of a critical thinker. You blew my question away in seconds without giving it a thought and allowing yourself to trip on your own bias. That isn't critical thinking.
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saucyjack
New Member
Posts • 197
Likes • 74
November 2015
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Price Manipulation, by saucyjack on Jan 2, 2016 22:27:52 GMT 1, Who would have thought this issue would have raised your dander of so much, Tartarus?
Again, please don't clutter this thread with your banter about me, my motivations, purchase history or biases. Use the PM feature. Members don't want to read that stuff.
Who would have thought this issue would have raised your dander of so much, Tartarus?
Again, please don't clutter this thread with your banter about me, my motivations, purchase history or biases. Use the PM feature. Members don't want to read that stuff.
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Black Apple Art
Art Gallery
Junior Member
Posts • 2,007
Likes • 3,971
September 2013
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Price Manipulation, by Black Apple Art on Jan 2, 2016 22:31:20 GMT 1, I post this BBC documentary once a year at least as I think it is absolutely essential viewing for anyone in the art market. While most BBC docs are available on line, a little strange, or sad, that this piece has been banned for being posted in its entirety. For anyone who wants the full feature, shoot me a PM and I will send you a link to the full documentary. I'd post the link here but last time I did that my dropbox was temp shut down.
I post this BBC documentary once a year at least as I think it is absolutely essential viewing for anyone in the art market. While most BBC docs are available on line, a little strange, or sad, that this piece has been banned for being posted in its entirety. For anyone who wants the full feature, shoot me a PM and I will send you a link to the full documentary. I'd post the link here but last time I did that my dropbox was temp shut down.
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Spenie
Junior Member
Posts • 1,276
Likes • 2,212
November 2014
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Price Manipulation, by Spenie on Jan 3, 2016 0:54:24 GMT 1, It's not just for stocks anymore! Any of you want to chat about schemes and scams and how they relate to the artists we love? Not really, I need to protect my investment.
It's not just for stocks anymore! Any of you want to chat about schemes and scams and how they relate to the artists we love? Not really, I need to protect my investment.
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thomasmer
Junior Member
Posts • 1,107
Likes • 565
July 2014
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Price Manipulation, by thomasmer on Jan 3, 2016 3:03:21 GMT 1, The most corrupt market on the planet, as well as the most unregulated (other than drugs).
Happens from the top to the bottom, auction houses, to ebay.
The most corrupt market on the planet, as well as the most unregulated (other than drugs).
Happens from the top to the bottom, auction houses, to ebay.
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Deleted
Posts • 0
Likes •
January 1970
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Price Manipulation, by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 17:00:31 GMT 1, It's an interesting thread.
There have been allegations or rumours of Sotheby's and Wildenstein doing a deal to control the art market regarding a certain genre of art.
A powerful authenticator working with a major auction house.
do not know if the rumour is true but taking it a step further.
Regarding prices achieved by art that belongs to certain traders or dealers as in commoddities. Are the major auction houses complicit in aiding some to make money from the art they own or promote.
Some people call ltd editions "expensive paper" and currently there are a lot of prints produced by artists which are alive and not very old that seem to be selling for high prices. Is that a good long term investment.
Todays buyers see the high and fast rise of banksy for example and look at prints produced by artists promoted on online art blogs etc. Ignoring that even Bambi gets column inches.
Some in the mainstream too, like Huff Post and UK national newspapers and which use the story as some form of space filler and see some prints flipped for high prices and want to jump on the bandwagon as todays mentaity is all about making money fast.
It used to be about thinking long term now its thinking short term.
Damien Hirsts art was bought by hedge funds in some cases, by people who were spending other peoples money.
Was any of it fixed or corrupt, I have no idea. Hirst did very well out of it and whether it was dots on canvas or other shapes, butterflies or bees, or dead cows or trees I doubt it would have made any difference to the deals being made.
It looks like art can be a tool used by some to siphon money or hide money from the tax man.
Why would someone pay fifty million in cash for a canvas with some paint on it?
Further down the line at the low end of the market.
Why would someone want to be a member of two or three forums that are the same and about the same subject which is urban art?
People buy lots of prints by Fairey, Brainwash Stik and others but their fan base seems very very small in reality if one looks at a forum that is only about their art.
Nothing wrong with making money out of art in my book.
Some artists are more akin to business men and women who make art that is easily marketed and sold.
Other artists are useless about business and marketing and have no idea how to sell, yet their art is just as valuable as the art that is promoted and sold regularly for high prices.
It's an interesting thread.
There have been allegations or rumours of Sotheby's and Wildenstein doing a deal to control the art market regarding a certain genre of art.
A powerful authenticator working with a major auction house.
do not know if the rumour is true but taking it a step further.
Regarding prices achieved by art that belongs to certain traders or dealers as in commoddities. Are the major auction houses complicit in aiding some to make money from the art they own or promote.
Some people call ltd editions "expensive paper" and currently there are a lot of prints produced by artists which are alive and not very old that seem to be selling for high prices. Is that a good long term investment.
Todays buyers see the high and fast rise of banksy for example and look at prints produced by artists promoted on online art blogs etc. Ignoring that even Bambi gets column inches.
Some in the mainstream too, like Huff Post and UK national newspapers and which use the story as some form of space filler and see some prints flipped for high prices and want to jump on the bandwagon as todays mentaity is all about making money fast.
It used to be about thinking long term now its thinking short term.
Damien Hirsts art was bought by hedge funds in some cases, by people who were spending other peoples money.
Was any of it fixed or corrupt, I have no idea. Hirst did very well out of it and whether it was dots on canvas or other shapes, butterflies or bees, or dead cows or trees I doubt it would have made any difference to the deals being made.
It looks like art can be a tool used by some to siphon money or hide money from the tax man.
Why would someone pay fifty million in cash for a canvas with some paint on it?
Further down the line at the low end of the market.
Why would someone want to be a member of two or three forums that are the same and about the same subject which is urban art?
People buy lots of prints by Fairey, Brainwash Stik and others but their fan base seems very very small in reality if one looks at a forum that is only about their art.
Nothing wrong with making money out of art in my book.
Some artists are more akin to business men and women who make art that is easily marketed and sold.
Other artists are useless about business and marketing and have no idea how to sell, yet their art is just as valuable as the art that is promoted and sold regularly for high prices.
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Deleted
Posts • 0
Likes •
January 1970
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Price Manipulation, by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 17:13:08 GMT 1, Before my massively long drive back from the Alps yesterday i downloaded some Ted podcasts to listen to
one that was pretty interesting and shares some bits with weird print collectors like us was this
Before my massively long drive back from the Alps yesterday i downloaded some Ted podcasts to listen to
one that was pretty interesting and shares some bits with weird print collectors like us was this
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