Urban Art Association

this is why i think its spot on that sg is in bethlehem this year. it's put the wall back in the news. injusticies are reported, then slip out of public consciences and holding events like sg and the surrounding art going up on the wall, puts this back in the public domain for debate. its been on the tv news, the radio, in the papers etc. nice one pow/mr b ;D

can i just butt in here and say that more photos of the ghetto have been posted on flickr by the same guy as yesterday

www.flickr.com/photos/chevali/

Santas ghetto, what Santas ghetto? lol. ;D

some really good pics there!

Guantanamo?

I hesitated to post this because I didn't think it was the place for this debate however after reading some posts that were so biased and worse just plain incorrect historically, I decided to add my 2 cents. Personally I think its tragic since many people from both sides truly want peace and do want to coexist. Israelis wouldn't have to kill anyone if they weren't constantly being attacked and they are and to deny it is to deny reality.

If the Arabs weren't bent on killing the Jews in 1948, they would have had exactly what they want now 60 years ago. It was their decision to reject it and their decision in most cases to leave to make way for what they believed would be victorious Arab armies. Then they believed, they would return to divvy up the Jews' loot and property. Anyone out there deny that?

Let us examine exactly what the Israelis said in their declaration in 1948:

From the "The Declaration Of The
Establishment Of The State Of Israel" May 14, 1948

"WE APPEAL — in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months — to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the building of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions."

And what was the response?

The Arabs living there have no one to blame for their predicament then themselves and their so called leaders. Does anyone here have any comments on 40 years of Arafat who ended his life with over a billion dollars in the bank and a widow who still receives 100,000 a month? Where did that money come from if not the pockets of his people who he was entrusted to represent.

It seems to me, it may have been advantageous for Arafat to continue things exactly as they were . And by the way Arafat was an Egyptian as were many of the "Palestinians"

As for the wall, it's reduced suicide bombing by almost 80% and for that its a great success. Almost all of what you see the Israelis do is a REACTION to what the Arabs have done first. Lets take the daily firing of rockets into Sderot. Do you think any country would put up with that from any neighboring country? What do you suppose the Russians would do if Chechnya fired rockets into their cities? What do you suppose the Brits would do if they had rockets fired into their cities? The citizens of Sderot demand that their government protect them and their families. Don't you think at some point, that's exactly what will happen? How many here won't even know that a year of rockets fired into Sderot was what led up to an Israeli military operation in Gaza when it happens and will only condemn Israel? So far there have been hundreds if not thousands of rockets and now mortar shells being fired into cities. What do you expect Israel to do? What would you want your government to do?

And finally, a point I always find interesting but can't seem to ever get an answer to. For decades Jordan occupied the West Bank and Egypt occupied Gaza. Why wasn't a single word ever spoken about these occupations? Is one occupation different form the other ? Why is "occupation" such an issue now when it was never an issue all the time Jordan and Egypt were the occupiers ?

I reiterate in case readers didn't get it the first time. Had the Arabs living there accepted the two state solution then, none of this would ever have happened. The Jews had as much right to be there and I submit more since they were in many cases majorities as they were in Hebron and Jerusalem and certainly many had been there for centuries. Half of Israel is made up NOT of European Jews but those Jews thrown out of surrounding Arab countries after 1948 mostly after having all their property stolen by those regimes, and absorbed into Israel while the Arabs who fled, many voluntarily, were deliberately not absorbed into any of the surrounding Arab countries but put in refugee camps so the issue would never die and where they still live today.

And if Israel and Israelis were really the bloodthirsty demons as some would have the rest of us believe and just want to kill innocent Palestinians, why is it those Arabs who stayed behind in 1948 have prospered in Israel as Israeli citizens? The Israeli Arab population has increased 9 fold since 1948. Why didn't they run from Israel when they could ? Why have they remained? Could it be they have decent lives and in most cases better then they could have in any of the surrounding Arab countries?

I submit this all about the usual racism and intolerance. Its about the same thing that just happened in Sudan, the same thing it was about when a newspaper published 12 cartoons, the same thing it was about when film maker Van Gogh was murdered in Amsterdam and so on and so on ... and those who deny that are also denying reality.

nice post greeneny.

i have been to israel a number of times for work and have heard people on both sides tell their story. it's pretty easy for either side to show pictures of death and misery and to twist things in their favor. unfortunately, the complexities of the issue, the blame that can be thrown at either side, the history of the region, etc only make me think the current situation will continue for some time to come.

that said, if people have the opportunity to visit Israel, i think they should do it (for Santa's Ghetto or otherwise). my company discourages us from going into the occupied areas, but i have been to Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and the Dead Sea and it's a pretty cool area to check out.

A nice unbiased summary, if I could +10 I would! Its easy to forget that there are 2 sides to every story. I'd just like to add one of my favourite quotes:
"you never really know a man until you stand in his shoes and walk around in them"

This is a BIG social/political/religious onion!
I think people should forget about all this and remember Banksy intended this show to help the children! who to no fault of their own are born into this situation.

"When I was working in Saudi Arabia I was quite friendly with an arab Dr who worked in the same hospital, for six months we got on really well, he seemed like a nice guy. After six months I mentioned something about the troubles in Palestine, and I said 'why can't the arabs and the jews just get along' And he never spoke to me again. Could of been worse. I could have called mohammed a c**t."

You worked in a hspital with Dr Who!!! How fucking cool is that!

greeneny +1
Great to see the forum tackling the big picture from all sides.
Makes the question of will I/won't I get the new Banksy print seem a bit shallow.
This is in essence exactly why moving the ghetto to a more contentious location is a master stroke.
Awareness, debate, humanitarian aid et al. It may be a small gesture but I feel it's simply been done with the best of intentions.

Now how about having Santa's Ghetto in Chenobyl next year and then we can tackle the environmental issue?

The idea that the israel disputed territories are causing world destabilisation and anti-semitism is ridiculous - Israel is not to blame for most things that go on in the world and people will always dislike jews regardless. greeneny +1 here as well, for arguing the other side so well. I've been to these places and spent time with different people from there and just to give an idea of how complex the problem is - I asked an israeli if he agreed with the wall and his answer was 'I can get the bus without getting blown up'. Now if some people shout 'stop the occupation' and the others shout 'stop the terrorism' then we become a microcosm of the region. The answer is understanding. People with a loose idea of history seem very keen to blame. This doesn't help, and if you feel so strongly, then why not look at worse human right abuses closer to home - turkey for example? They have been at war with their kurdish population since the 90's, banning their language and their culture. People get arrested and disappear for expressing their views. Then there's their invasion and occupation of cyprus and cutting off trade with the greek side. I could go on. Why don't we all have an opinion about this as well?

I have to disagree with you. The Israel occupation of Palestine has handicaped the Arabs both Muslims and Christians. You would think after the Holocaust things would be different.
An example.. I have family there.
All 5 children, mother, father and grand parents were made to leave there home thats they built and lived in for a year then left on the street. They got there home bulldozed by israel army with everything in it because they didn't have permission to build the house on the Land they owned for years. The reason they didn't have permission is because the israel government wouldn't grant them the permission for the build.
Its a no win situation for the Palestine Arabs.

Have one back Mike.
Failure to engage in a rational discussion cannot be compensated by camouflaged negging.
kinda reminds me of Homer Simpson with regards to some peoples' perspective on a reasoned point of view.

Homer: Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.
(just neg)

Its funny how people are defending Israel's actions. Is anyone defending Nazi Germany? What do you expect the Palestinians to do roll over and die? One mans terrorist... As for Israel - some of their factions were even considered terrorists by Britain (wiki Stern gang. They were even awarded medals years later).

Who are these people on the forum? Justification of the wall? Street art is becoming less 'street' by the minute!

Nice one NU for keeping it real. I think a lot of members are getting their facts from the likes of Fox News.