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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by valeha on Dec 6, 2007 0:13:56 GMT 1, hey yeah rupert, I can 100% see why you were angry with the comparison between the holocaust and Palestine - the holocaust is clearly the biggest atrocity that humankind has experienced, but I think you let your anger get in the way of seeing that he is not condoning Nazi Germany, nor is he an anti-Semite, he IMO made the mistake that some people do of saying "Zionism is the same as Nazism" - which it obviously isn't.
I think perhaps he could have expressed himself better but I don't think he's a fascist lover.
I guess the thing is we need to learn lessons from the past to make sure history never repeats itself.
hey yeah rupert, I can 100% see why you were angry with the comparison between the holocaust and Palestine - the holocaust is clearly the biggest atrocity that humankind has experienced, but I think you let your anger get in the way of seeing that he is not condoning Nazi Germany, nor is he an anti-Semite, he IMO made the mistake that some people do of saying "Zionism is the same as Nazism" - which it obviously isn't.
I think perhaps he could have expressed himself better but I don't think he's a fascist lover.
I guess the thing is we need to learn lessons from the past to make sure history never repeats itself.
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by bob1 on Dec 6, 2007 0:15:15 GMT 1, I guess the thing is we need to learn lessons from the past to make sure history never repeats itself.
Well said Valeha
I guess the thing is we need to learn lessons from the past to make sure history never repeats itself. Well said Valeha
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by valeha on Dec 6, 2007 0:15:39 GMT 1, thank you.
thank you.
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gozgoz
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,617
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September 2007
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by gozgoz on Dec 6, 2007 0:16:48 GMT 1, dave! how did u know about the mother!
dave! how did u know about the mother!
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by shogun on Dec 6, 2007 0:17:37 GMT 1, Rudeboy Rupert - NO evidence of racism. Exact lines you lazy cunt.
Ive held back my tongue - but Ive had enough. You think the Israeli's are victims??
Fuck off you class A cunt!!!! See you've brought me down to your level of cuntingness...
This is the first time ive used such language - but it seems you want a slagging match.
GIVE ME THE EXACT LINE OF RACISM.
Rudeboy Rupert - NO evidence of racism. Exact lines you lazy cunt.
Ive held back my tongue - but Ive had enough. You think the Israeli's are victims??
Fuck off you class A cunt!!!! See you've brought me down to your level of cuntingness...
This is the first time ive used such language - but it seems you want a slagging match.
GIVE ME THE EXACT LINE OF RACISM.
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by valeha on Dec 6, 2007 0:20:47 GMT 1, I feel like a mediator! shogun, now I think you re being unfair, read his posts, he is in no way supporting Israel, he is angry at the usage of the holocaust. It is too easy a mistake to make, I think you should perhaps express yourself a little better, it may eventually lead to a resolution between you two.
Please both of you let's see some constructive debate not all the f-ing and blinding!
I feel like a mediator! shogun, now I think you re being unfair, read his posts, he is in no way supporting Israel, he is angry at the usage of the holocaust. It is too easy a mistake to make, I think you should perhaps express yourself a little better, it may eventually lead to a resolution between you two.
Please both of you let's see some constructive debate not all the f-ing and blinding!
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gozgoz
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,617
๐๐ป 7
September 2007
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by gozgoz on Dec 6, 2007 0:21:04 GMT 1, 24TH Tel aviv Clean passport is best. Happy Birthday
thanks man
24TH Tel aviv Clean passport is best. Happy Birthday thanks man
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by shogun on Dec 6, 2007 0:24:23 GMT 1, I feel like a mediator! shogun, now I think you re being unfair, read his posts, he is in no way supporting Israel, he is angry at the usage of the holocaust. It is too easy a mistake to make, I think you should perhaps express yourself a little better, it may eventually lead to a resolution between you two. Please both of you let's see some constructive debate not all the f-ing and blinding!
How much abuse can/should one take.
I'm not denying the holocaust. It was the most evil thing that man has done to man.
But for Jews (sorry Zionists) especially surely they should not persecute others since they themselves were persecuted during the nazi regime. I'm not sure how I have been called a racist??
I feel like a mediator! shogun, now I think you re being unfair, read his posts, he is in no way supporting Israel, he is angry at the usage of the holocaust. It is too easy a mistake to make, I think you should perhaps express yourself a little better, it may eventually lead to a resolution between you two. Please both of you let's see some constructive debate not all the f-ing and blinding! How much abuse can/should one take. I'm not denying the holocaust. It was the most evil thing that man has done to man. But for Jews (sorry Zionists) especially surely they should not persecute others since they themselves were persecuted during the nazi regime. I'm not sure how I have been called a racist??
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by valeha on Dec 6, 2007 0:26:51 GMT 1, I know you weren't denying the holocaust but I guess it is such a delicate matter, one needs to choose ones words carefully. Remember it is not "Jews" persecuting the people of Palestine it is the Israeli government - this is political not religious and should be expressed in such terms.
I Hope you see what I mean.
Thanks
V
I know you weren't denying the holocaust but I guess it is such a delicate matter, one needs to choose ones words carefully. Remember it is not "Jews" persecuting the people of Palestine it is the Israeli government - this is political not religious and should be expressed in such terms.
I Hope you see what I mean.
Thanks
V
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gozgoz
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,617
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September 2007
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by gozgoz on Dec 6, 2007 0:27:11 GMT 1, its funny how everyone starts off advocating peace to the world and peace this peace that and how wars shouldnt happen etc etc in the real world...
when in the cyerworld, we cant even get along.
its funny how everyone starts off advocating peace to the world and peace this peace that and how wars shouldnt happen etc etc in the real world...
when in the cyerworld, we cant even get along.
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by shogun on Dec 6, 2007 0:29:06 GMT 1, I know you weren't denying the holocaust but I guess it is such a delicate matter, one needs to choose ones words carefully. Remember it is not "Jews" persecuting the people of Palestine it is the Israeli government - this is political not religious and should be expressed in such terms. I Hope you see what I mean. Thanks V
I'm aware of this. But still not sure how I was refered to as a racist. The holocaust is a delicate matter - but it seems we are not learning from man's history.
I know you weren't denying the holocaust but I guess it is such a delicate matter, one needs to choose ones words carefully. Remember it is not "Jews" persecuting the people of Palestine it is the Israeli government - this is political not religious and should be expressed in such terms. I Hope you see what I mean. Thanks V I'm aware of this. But still not sure how I was refered to as a racist. The holocaust is a delicate matter - but it seems we are not learning from man's history.
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by valeha on Dec 6, 2007 0:36:11 GMT 1, shogun I already said I don't think you are a racist but you didn't express yourself very well. I think it's do you good to stay away from holocaust comparisons and instead just cite the facts about the occupation of Palestine like Bob1, Nuart etc...
fair thing to say?
shogun I already said I don't think you are a racist but you didn't express yourself very well. I think it's do you good to stay away from holocaust comparisons and instead just cite the facts about the occupation of Palestine like Bob1, Nuart etc...
fair thing to say?
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by shogun on Dec 6, 2007 0:58:39 GMT 1, shogun I already said I don't think you are a racist but you didn't express yourself very well. I think it's do you good to stay away from holocaust comparisons and instead just cite the facts about the occupation of Palestine like Bob1, Nuart etc... fair thing to say?
RudeboyRupert claimed i was a racist on several posts. I have asked for the EXACT line where it shows I'm a racist. So far silence.
It seems those that 'support' the occupation needed a change of subject when so many on here condemned Israel's action over the Palestinians. So have tried to tar me with false labels of being a racist and Nazi sympathiser once the holocaust was mentioned. In order to steer the subject away from the occupation.
shogun I already said I don't think you are a racist but you didn't express yourself very well. I think it's do you good to stay away from holocaust comparisons and instead just cite the facts about the occupation of Palestine like Bob1, Nuart etc... fair thing to say? RudeboyRupert claimed i was a racist on several posts. I have asked for the EXACT line where it shows I'm a racist. So far silence. It seems those that 'support' the occupation needed a change of subject when so many on here condemned Israel's action over the Palestinians. So have tried to tar me with false labels of being a racist and Nazi sympathiser once the holocaust was mentioned. In order to steer the subject away from the occupation.
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by shogun on Dec 6, 2007 1:06:50 GMT 1,
The bit of text inside the red border under the camel sums it all up for me.
The bit of text inside the red border under the camel sums it all up for me.
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by valeha on Dec 6, 2007 1:11:43 GMT 1, okay shogun my final reply, I think you are perhaps tarnishing Rudeboyrupert with the same brush by calling him "pro-occupation" surely you would need a quote to back this up.
This is a heated debate, things get said, but we are adults, lets just be amicable.
okay shogun my final reply, I think you are perhaps tarnishing Rudeboyrupert with the same brush by calling him "pro-occupation" surely you would need a quote to back this up.
This is a heated debate, things get said, but we are adults, lets just be amicable.
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by shogun on Dec 6, 2007 1:25:15 GMT 1, okay shogun my final reply, I think you are perhaps tarnishing Rudeboyrupert with the same brush by calling him "pro-occupation" surely you would need a quote to back this up. This is a heated debate, things get said, but we are adults, lets just be amicable. Things get said in a heated exchange - your right time to take a chill pill.
well done Banksy and POW for setting up in Bethlehem. I took offense when I was personally insulted. I should be bigger than that.
Its bedtime so peace out.
okay shogun my final reply, I think you are perhaps tarnishing Rudeboyrupert with the same brush by calling him "pro-occupation" surely you would need a quote to back this up. This is a heated debate, things get said, but we are adults, lets just be amicable. Things get said in a heated exchange - your right time to take a chill pill. well done Banksy and POW for setting up in Bethlehem. I took offense when I was personally insulted. I should be bigger than that. Its bedtime so peace out.
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gtf
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 359
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November 2007
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by gtf on Dec 6, 2007 1:31:58 GMT 1, Nice try valeha to bring some peace to this thread +1 for the peacekeeper, and I'm not talking the "new" Micallef at the Ghetto.
Can I suggest to shogun & rudeboyrupert that you carry on your argument via PM's instead of this thread.
Nice try valeha to bring some peace to this thread +1 for the peacekeeper, and I'm not talking the "new" Micallef at the Ghetto. Can I suggest to shogun & rudeboyrupert that you carry on your argument via PM's instead of this thread.
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RBK
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,925
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September 2006
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by RBK on Dec 6, 2007 1:49:19 GMT 1, Can I suggest to shogun & rudeboyrupert that you carry on your argument via PM's instead of this thread.
Agreed.
Can I suggest to shogun & rudeboyrupert that you carry on your argument via PM's instead of this thread. Agreed.
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greeneny
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 118
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October 2007
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by greeneny on Dec 6, 2007 1:54:02 GMT 1, I feel like a mediator! shogun, now I think you re being unfair, read his posts, he is in no way supporting Israel, he is angry at the usage of the holocaust. It is too easy a mistake to make, I think you should perhaps express yourself a little better, it may eventually lead to a resolution between you two. Please both of you let's see some constructive debate not all the f-ing and blinding! How much abuse can/should one take. I'm not denying the holocaust. It was the most evil thing that man has done to man. But for Jews (sorry Zionists) especially surely they should not persecute others since they themselves were persecuted during the nazi regime. I'm not sure how I have been called a racist??
Can we have a bit of reality here.
#1 The Arabs, who already had 22 States were OFFERED a State of their own in 1948 but opted along with the entire Arab world to try and kill the Jews instead. Unfortunately for them it didn't work out that way and most of the Jews only three years out of concentration camps beat them. There was NO American support, no American weapons and only 5 million bullets. The odds were heavily stacked against them. Britain had even armed and trained one of the attacking armies - the Jordanian Army.
Please remember that Palestine was not nor had it EVER BEEN a state or a country. It was a territory first controlled in modern times by the Ottoman Turks and then by the Brits. Many Jews lived there along with Arabs. Many cities were majority Jewish and not Arab. Many Jews bought land from Arab landowners. Many Arabs only came to Palestine to work on Jewish farms. And despite the claims being made here, Jews did NOT live peacefully with the Arabs. There were Jewish massacres all the time, some pretty infamous like Hebron for example.
Have any of you ever read the travel diaries of Samuel Clemons a/k/a Mark Twain he did for a NYC Travel Magazine which included a trip to the "Holy Land" in the late 1800's ? Had you, you might find it interesting to discover this territory was virtually abandoned. Few lived here unlike the claims of today that would have people believe here we had cities full of "Palestinians" that the Jews with their guilty European backers evicted ... but none of that is true at all.
Twain's writings are available for all to read and here's some of what you'd learn
"Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes. Over it broods the spell of a curse that has withered its fields and fettered its energies. Where Sodom and Gomorrah reared their domes and towers, that solemn sea now floods the plain, in whose bitter waters no living thing exists--over whose waveless surface the blistering air hangs motionless and dead-- about whose borders nothing grows but weeds, and scattering tufts of cane, and that treacherous fruit that promises refreshment to parching lips, but turns to ashes at the touch. Nazareth is forlorn; about that ford of Jordan where the hosts of Israel entered the Promised Land with songs of rejoicing, one finds only a squalid camp of fantastic Bedouins of the desert; Jericho the accursed, lies a moldering ruin, to-day, even as Joshua's miracle left it more than three thousand years ago; Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and their humiliation, have nothing about them now to remind one that they once knew the high honor of the Saviour's presence; the hallowed spot where the shepherds watched their flocks by night, and where the angels sang Peace on earth, good will to men, is untenanted by any living creature, and unblessed by any feature that is pleasant to the eye"
Its patently unfair to remove the historical context from this issue as is being done here. The Israelis didn't just become what they are now - they were forced to. they didn't one day decide to build walls and checkpoints. They were forced to.
I suppose they could have dealt with the situation the same way most would deal with and perhaps the mistake is that its gone on as long as it had. Perhaps if the Israelis would have obliterated the Arabs which they could have easily done in later years, many wouldn't have had the time to revise history and mythologize peoples and places. Does anyone think for a minute that had the Arabs had the Jews on the ropes in 1948 or in 1957 or in 1967 or in 1973 that they wouldn't have killed every last one of them ?
I feel like a mediator! shogun, now I think you re being unfair, read his posts, he is in no way supporting Israel, he is angry at the usage of the holocaust. It is too easy a mistake to make, I think you should perhaps express yourself a little better, it may eventually lead to a resolution between you two. Please both of you let's see some constructive debate not all the f-ing and blinding! How much abuse can/should one take. I'm not denying the holocaust. It was the most evil thing that man has done to man. But for Jews (sorry Zionists) especially surely they should not persecute others since they themselves were persecuted during the nazi regime. I'm not sure how I have been called a racist?? Can we have a bit of reality here. #1 The Arabs, who already had 22 States were OFFERED a State of their own in 1948 but opted along with the entire Arab world to try and kill the Jews instead. Unfortunately for them it didn't work out that way and most of the Jews only three years out of concentration camps beat them. There was NO American support, no American weapons and only 5 million bullets. The odds were heavily stacked against them. Britain had even armed and trained one of the attacking armies - the Jordanian Army. Please remember that Palestine was not nor had it EVER BEEN a state or a country. It was a territory first controlled in modern times by the Ottoman Turks and then by the Brits. Many Jews lived there along with Arabs. Many cities were majority Jewish and not Arab. Many Jews bought land from Arab landowners. Many Arabs only came to Palestine to work on Jewish farms. And despite the claims being made here, Jews did NOT live peacefully with the Arabs. There were Jewish massacres all the time, some pretty infamous like Hebron for example. Have any of you ever read the travel diaries of Samuel Clemons a/k/a Mark Twain he did for a NYC Travel Magazine which included a trip to the "Holy Land" in the late 1800's ? Had you, you might find it interesting to discover this territory was virtually abandoned. Few lived here unlike the claims of today that would have people believe here we had cities full of "Palestinians" that the Jews with their guilty European backers evicted ... but none of that is true at all. Twain's writings are available for all to read and here's some of what you'd learn "Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes. Over it broods the spell of a curse that has withered its fields and fettered its energies. Where Sodom and Gomorrah reared their domes and towers, that solemn sea now floods the plain, in whose bitter waters no living thing exists--over whose waveless surface the blistering air hangs motionless and dead-- about whose borders nothing grows but weeds, and scattering tufts of cane, and that treacherous fruit that promises refreshment to parching lips, but turns to ashes at the touch. Nazareth is forlorn; about that ford of Jordan where the hosts of Israel entered the Promised Land with songs of rejoicing, one finds only a squalid camp of fantastic Bedouins of the desert; Jericho the accursed, lies a moldering ruin, to-day, even as Joshua's miracle left it more than three thousand years ago; Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and their humiliation, have nothing about them now to remind one that they once knew the high honor of the Saviour's presence; the hallowed spot where the shepherds watched their flocks by night, and where the angels sang Peace on earth, good will to men, is untenanted by any living creature, and unblessed by any feature that is pleasant to the eye" Its patently unfair to remove the historical context from this issue as is being done here. The Israelis didn't just become what they are now - they were forced to. they didn't one day decide to build walls and checkpoints. They were forced to. I suppose they could have dealt with the situation the same way most would deal with and perhaps the mistake is that its gone on as long as it had. Perhaps if the Israelis would have obliterated the Arabs which they could have easily done in later years, many wouldn't have had the time to revise history and mythologize peoples and places. Does anyone think for a minute that had the Arabs had the Jews on the ropes in 1948 or in 1957 or in 1967 or in 1973 that they wouldn't have killed every last one of them ?
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by finsburyparkranger on Dec 6, 2007 3:00:06 GMT 1,
Any country has a right to defend its self but no country has the right to keep the next generation of their enemy's children in abject poverty whilst abusing almost all of their human rights on a daily basis and fairly often randomly killing them. Its just not cricket. You cant do it. Regardless of what someone may or may not have indended on doing in 1973.
Any country has a right to defend its self but no country has the right to keep the next generation of their enemy's children in abject poverty whilst abusing almost all of their human rights on a daily basis and fairly often randomly killing them. Its just not cricket. You cant do it. Regardless of what someone may or may not have indended on doing in 1973.
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chickendog
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 10
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August 2007
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by chickendog on Dec 6, 2007 5:53:02 GMT 1, A few years ago I became interested in reading graphic novels about war and genocide. I was feeling really confused about how human behavior could lead to such atrocities. I found this amazing author Joe Sacco. He writes and illustrates his journeys to Palestine and Bosnia. It was really his graphic novel Palestine that I think is a true masterpiece. It shows a perspective of Palestine through an outsider living amongst the Palestinian population. I just wanted to recommend it, as I see in the postings that many people want to learn more about the situation in these parts. I think it will especially appeal to those of artistic interest cause the whole thing is one big comic book. I got mine on Amazon but I'm sure you could find it lots of places. Hope you enjoy.
A few years ago I became interested in reading graphic novels about war and genocide. I was feeling really confused about how human behavior could lead to such atrocities. I found this amazing author Joe Sacco. He writes and illustrates his journeys to Palestine and Bosnia. It was really his graphic novel Palestine that I think is a true masterpiece. It shows a perspective of Palestine through an outsider living amongst the Palestinian population. I just wanted to recommend it, as I see in the postings that many people want to learn more about the situation in these parts. I think it will especially appeal to those of artistic interest cause the whole thing is one big comic book. I got mine on Amazon but I'm sure you could find it lots of places. Hope you enjoy.
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greeneny
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 118
๐๐ป 1
October 2007
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by greeneny on Dec 6, 2007 6:55:26 GMT 1, Any country has a right to defend its self but no country has the right to keep the next generation of their enemy's children in abject poverty whilst abusing almost all of their human rights on a daily basis and fairly often randomly killing them. Its just not cricket. You cant do it. Regardless of what someone may or may not have indended on doing in 1973.
Wha? Tell it to the so called Palestinian leadership who now tells us if the Israelis mount an operation into Gaza TO DEFEND ITS CITIZENS against the constant rockets being fired into the Israeli city of Sderot, then they will fight along side of Hamas against Israel. Now lets see if I have this right. You're saying you believe a country has the right to defend its citizens. Well do they have the right to launch a military operation into Gaza to put a stop to the mortar shelling and rockets? And when they do will you be supporting them or as I suspect condemning them for doing exactly what you're saying here you would support?
I reiterate for those who seem to miss the point which was none of this was ever necessary for realistic well intended people but I submit there are far too few who fit that description on the Arab side. And its not only Israel where this is taking place but elsewhere. it comes out of a visceral hatred for Jews Christians and infidels. Here in the US they just ran a piece on a respected news show about the Iraqi Christians and how because the so called "Secret Islamic Army" roams the streets in Baghdad, the entire 2,000 year old Christian population is being wiped out, their children shot in the streets. They said it has never been this bad ever in their history living in that country. A 1999 report in al-Hayat al-Jadida reveals that in August of that year 'Mein Kampf' ranked sixth in the list of best selling books in the PA. My point is I think you underestimate what a century or more of out and out racist hatred and incitement combined with the teaching of a virulent strain of Islam has now brought to the rest us including moderate Muslims and especially in Israel. Do you really believe a Muslim speaking out about wanting peace isn't immediately ostracized and worse? You hold Israel to a standard I suspect you hold no one else to. You used my quote before where I suggested that had the Arabs had the Jews on the ropes in any of the wars they waged, I believe they wouldn't have hesitated to kill every last one of them. But the Israelis could have done it many times if they fought in similar fashion but have they? And my point here is so many times the Arabs do exactly what you condemn the Israelis for and yet not a word is ever said about it. Hamas throws Fatah members off roof tops or shoots them like dogs in the streets, not a word is said. The Lebanese Army shells a Palestinian refugee camp for weeks, not a word is said. Muslims blow up mosques with hundreds of people inside and where's the outrage from the Muslim world? But if Israel defends itself, its immediately compared to Nazis, to bloodthirsty mindless killing. I'm afraid its now just oh so fashionable to wear your kafiya and wave your free Palestine flag like it was the latest fashion. Too bad it has little to do with reality since the side that doesn't want peace and says so is NOT nor has it ever been Israel.
And finally, and this is all I'll say on this subject on this forum in the words of Hamas a group who the majority of Palestinians voted for
"Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. " "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. "
How do you supporters of the Arabs square this statement from the Hamas Charter with your notion that they want peace. You can't and its naive to think otherwise.
Any country has a right to defend its self but no country has the right to keep the next generation of their enemy's children in abject poverty whilst abusing almost all of their human rights on a daily basis and fairly often randomly killing them. Its just not cricket. You cant do it. Regardless of what someone may or may not have indended on doing in 1973. Wha? Tell it to the so called Palestinian leadership who now tells us if the Israelis mount an operation into Gaza TO DEFEND ITS CITIZENS against the constant rockets being fired into the Israeli city of Sderot, then they will fight along side of Hamas against Israel. Now lets see if I have this right. You're saying you believe a country has the right to defend its citizens. Well do they have the right to launch a military operation into Gaza to put a stop to the mortar shelling and rockets? And when they do will you be supporting them or as I suspect condemning them for doing exactly what you're saying here you would support? I reiterate for those who seem to miss the point which was none of this was ever necessary for realistic well intended people but I submit there are far too few who fit that description on the Arab side. And its not only Israel where this is taking place but elsewhere. it comes out of a visceral hatred for Jews Christians and infidels. Here in the US they just ran a piece on a respected news show about the Iraqi Christians and how because the so called "Secret Islamic Army" roams the streets in Baghdad, the entire 2,000 year old Christian population is being wiped out, their children shot in the streets. They said it has never been this bad ever in their history living in that country. A 1999 report in al-Hayat al-Jadida reveals that in August of that year 'Mein Kampf' ranked sixth in the list of best selling books in the PA. My point is I think you underestimate what a century or more of out and out racist hatred and incitement combined with the teaching of a virulent strain of Islam has now brought to the rest us including moderate Muslims and especially in Israel. Do you really believe a Muslim speaking out about wanting peace isn't immediately ostracized and worse? You hold Israel to a standard I suspect you hold no one else to. You used my quote before where I suggested that had the Arabs had the Jews on the ropes in any of the wars they waged, I believe they wouldn't have hesitated to kill every last one of them. But the Israelis could have done it many times if they fought in similar fashion but have they? And my point here is so many times the Arabs do exactly what you condemn the Israelis for and yet not a word is ever said about it. Hamas throws Fatah members off roof tops or shoots them like dogs in the streets, not a word is said. The Lebanese Army shells a Palestinian refugee camp for weeks, not a word is said. Muslims blow up mosques with hundreds of people inside and where's the outrage from the Muslim world? But if Israel defends itself, its immediately compared to Nazis, to bloodthirsty mindless killing. I'm afraid its now just oh so fashionable to wear your kafiya and wave your free Palestine flag like it was the latest fashion. Too bad it has little to do with reality since the side that doesn't want peace and says so is NOT nor has it ever been Israel. And finally, and this is all I'll say on this subject on this forum in the words of Hamas a group who the majority of Palestinians voted for "Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. " "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. " How do you supporters of the Arabs square this statement from the Hamas Charter with your notion that they want peace. You can't and its naive to think otherwise.
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loupy
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 1
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December 2007
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by loupy on Dec 6, 2007 9:30:04 GMT 1, Flights are about ยฃ250 that includes airport tax.
Then its an hours drive from tel aviv to Bethlehem, which I am told you go by taxi.
Anyone fancy going Tuesday?
Flights are about ยฃ250 that includes airport tax.
Then its an hours drive from tel aviv to Bethlehem, which I am told you go by taxi.
Anyone fancy going Tuesday?
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by shogun on Dec 6, 2007 10:16:43 GMT 1, Any country has a right to defend its self but no country has the right to keep the next generation of their enemy's children in abject poverty whilst abusing almost all of their human rights on a daily basis and fairly often randomly killing them. Its just not cricket. You cant do it. Regardless of what someone may or may not have indended on doing in 1973. Wha? Tell it to the so called Palestinian leadership who now tells us if the Israelis mount an operation into Gaza TO DEFEND ITS CITIZENS against the constant rockets being fired into the Israeli city of Sderot, then they will fight along side of Hamas against Israel. Now lets see if I have this right. You're saying you believe a country has the right to defend its citizens. Well do they have the right to launch a military operation into Gaza to put a stop to the mortar shelling and rockets? And when they do will you be supporting them or as I suspect condemning them for doing exactly what you're saying here you would support? I reiterate for those who seem to miss the point which was none of this was ever necessary for realistic well intended people but I submit there are far too few who fit that description on the Arab side. And its not only Israel where this is taking place but elsewhere. it comes out of a visceral hatred for Jews Christians and infidels. Here in the US they just ran a piece on a respected news show about the Iraqi Christians and how because the so called "Secret Islamic Army" roams the streets in Baghdad, the entire 2,000 year old Christian population is being wiped out, their children shot in the streets. They said it has never been this bad ever in their history living in that country. A 1999 report in al-Hayat al-Jadida reveals that in August of that year 'Mein Kampf' ranked sixth in the list of best selling books in the PA. My point is I think you underestimate what a century or more of out and out racist hatred and incitement combined with the teaching of a virulent strain of Islam has now brought to the rest us including moderate Muslims and especially in Israel. Do you really believe a Muslim speaking out about wanting peace isn't immediately ostracized and worse? You hold Israel to a standard I suspect you hold no one else to. You used my quote before where I suggested that had the Arabs had the Jews on the ropes in any of the wars they waged, I believe they wouldn't have hesitated to kill every last one of them. But the Israelis could have done it many times if they fought in similar fashion but have they? And my point here is so many times the Arabs do exactly what you condemn the Israelis for and yet not a word is ever said about it. Hamas throws Fatah members off roof tops or shoots them like dogs in the streets, not a word is said. The Lebanese Army shells a Palestinian refugee camp for weeks, not a word is said. Muslims blow up mosques with hundreds of people inside and where's the outrage from the Muslim world? But if Israel defends itself, its immediately compared to Nazis, to bloodthirsty mindless killing. I'm afraid its now just oh so fashionable to wear your kafiya and wave your free Palestine flag like it was the latest fashion. Too bad it has little to do with reality since the side that doesn't want peace and says so is NOT nor has it ever been Israel. And finally, and this is all I'll say on this subject on this forum in the words of Hamas a group who the majority of Palestinians voted for "Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. " "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. " How do you supporters of the Arabs square this statement from the Hamas Charter with your notion that they want peace. You can't and its naive to think otherwise.
I think you'll find its a political problem. By stiring up religious issues you only try to take the focus away from the discussion.
Can I ask a question: Why are Israelis building illegal settlements in the West Bank and Gaza strip? Surely for a 2 state solution to progress illegal settlements must stop.
Any country has a right to defend its self but no country has the right to keep the next generation of their enemy's children in abject poverty whilst abusing almost all of their human rights on a daily basis and fairly often randomly killing them. Its just not cricket. You cant do it. Regardless of what someone may or may not have indended on doing in 1973. Wha? Tell it to the so called Palestinian leadership who now tells us if the Israelis mount an operation into Gaza TO DEFEND ITS CITIZENS against the constant rockets being fired into the Israeli city of Sderot, then they will fight along side of Hamas against Israel. Now lets see if I have this right. You're saying you believe a country has the right to defend its citizens. Well do they have the right to launch a military operation into Gaza to put a stop to the mortar shelling and rockets? And when they do will you be supporting them or as I suspect condemning them for doing exactly what you're saying here you would support? I reiterate for those who seem to miss the point which was none of this was ever necessary for realistic well intended people but I submit there are far too few who fit that description on the Arab side. And its not only Israel where this is taking place but elsewhere. it comes out of a visceral hatred for Jews Christians and infidels. Here in the US they just ran a piece on a respected news show about the Iraqi Christians and how because the so called "Secret Islamic Army" roams the streets in Baghdad, the entire 2,000 year old Christian population is being wiped out, their children shot in the streets. They said it has never been this bad ever in their history living in that country. A 1999 report in al-Hayat al-Jadida reveals that in August of that year 'Mein Kampf' ranked sixth in the list of best selling books in the PA. My point is I think you underestimate what a century or more of out and out racist hatred and incitement combined with the teaching of a virulent strain of Islam has now brought to the rest us including moderate Muslims and especially in Israel. Do you really believe a Muslim speaking out about wanting peace isn't immediately ostracized and worse? You hold Israel to a standard I suspect you hold no one else to. You used my quote before where I suggested that had the Arabs had the Jews on the ropes in any of the wars they waged, I believe they wouldn't have hesitated to kill every last one of them. But the Israelis could have done it many times if they fought in similar fashion but have they? And my point here is so many times the Arabs do exactly what you condemn the Israelis for and yet not a word is ever said about it. Hamas throws Fatah members off roof tops or shoots them like dogs in the streets, not a word is said. The Lebanese Army shells a Palestinian refugee camp for weeks, not a word is said. Muslims blow up mosques with hundreds of people inside and where's the outrage from the Muslim world? But if Israel defends itself, its immediately compared to Nazis, to bloodthirsty mindless killing. I'm afraid its now just oh so fashionable to wear your kafiya and wave your free Palestine flag like it was the latest fashion. Too bad it has little to do with reality since the side that doesn't want peace and says so is NOT nor has it ever been Israel. And finally, and this is all I'll say on this subject on this forum in the words of Hamas a group who the majority of Palestinians voted for "Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. " "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. " How do you supporters of the Arabs square this statement from the Hamas Charter with your notion that they want peace. You can't and its naive to think otherwise. I think you'll find its a political problem. By stiring up religious issues you only try to take the focus away from the discussion. Can I ask a question: Why are Israelis building illegal settlements in the West Bank and Gaza strip? Surely for a 2 state solution to progress illegal settlements must stop.
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by manchestermike on Dec 6, 2007 11:03:47 GMT 1, Greenery -
What people seem to forget at times when this is discussed as it is a war, Palestine is being forcibly occupied by Israel and they are fighting back against them. Why are they firing rockets into Israel? Because they're defending themselves, they're trying to fight back against their occupation and oppression in the best way they know how to.
I'm making an assumption here but I see you are from New York, can I ask, are you Jewish? I think that if you are that your view on this may be more than a little one sided. The views of people in the Western World in general on this subject are very one sided as they have only been fed one side of the information (the Israeli side of it) through their news bulletins and newspapers. Search on the internet and you hear a very one sided story... You hear about the Palestinian attacks, you hear about the suicide bombers in Israel, but you don't hear the other side to the story... the daily oppression, the shootings, the people going missing, the threat of waking up one morning to find the IDF are going to demolish your home... all part of life living in a forcibly occupied territory.
The Israeli argument is if they do give the land back the attacks won't stop... this is from an article I read "Imagine a farmer going to the judge and saying: "My neighbour is beating me every day. Oh, and by the way, I have been occupying his field since 1967." Now I hope the judge would say: "Give him back his own field, then he should stop hitting you. And if he doesnโt, apply self-defence, or come back to me; but donโt take his field ever again!" However, Israelโs favourite judge is expected to say: "Fine, keep his field and hit him back, because he might hit you even if you return it!"..."
The main reason Israel are still doing what they're doing is fear, they are scared if they pull out they'll leave themselves vulnerable, they will have a very thin border (9 or 10 miles) near one of their most densely populated areas... what? Does this mean the Palestinians should give up the West Bank to Israel just so they're secure? Not at all...
It doesn't matter how this started and what view you take on the history, I know what mine is and I'm sure I know what yours is too, there is no justification for what is happening now, for the Israeli government to be denying millions of people their basic human rights... There is only one solution to the conflict and that is for the aggressive occupation by Israel to stop...
One thing is 100% certain... If the situation was the other way round you can't for one second think that the US wouldn't storm in to rescue the oppressed and right the wrongs...
Greenery -
What people seem to forget at times when this is discussed as it is a war, Palestine is being forcibly occupied by Israel and they are fighting back against them. Why are they firing rockets into Israel? Because they're defending themselves, they're trying to fight back against their occupation and oppression in the best way they know how to.
I'm making an assumption here but I see you are from New York, can I ask, are you Jewish? I think that if you are that your view on this may be more than a little one sided. The views of people in the Western World in general on this subject are very one sided as they have only been fed one side of the information (the Israeli side of it) through their news bulletins and newspapers. Search on the internet and you hear a very one sided story... You hear about the Palestinian attacks, you hear about the suicide bombers in Israel, but you don't hear the other side to the story... the daily oppression, the shootings, the people going missing, the threat of waking up one morning to find the IDF are going to demolish your home... all part of life living in a forcibly occupied territory.
The Israeli argument is if they do give the land back the attacks won't stop... this is from an article I read "Imagine a farmer going to the judge and saying: "My neighbour is beating me every day. Oh, and by the way, I have been occupying his field since 1967." Now I hope the judge would say: "Give him back his own field, then he should stop hitting you. And if he doesnโt, apply self-defence, or come back to me; but donโt take his field ever again!" However, Israelโs favourite judge is expected to say: "Fine, keep his field and hit him back, because he might hit you even if you return it!"..."
The main reason Israel are still doing what they're doing is fear, they are scared if they pull out they'll leave themselves vulnerable, they will have a very thin border (9 or 10 miles) near one of their most densely populated areas... what? Does this mean the Palestinians should give up the West Bank to Israel just so they're secure? Not at all...
It doesn't matter how this started and what view you take on the history, I know what mine is and I'm sure I know what yours is too, there is no justification for what is happening now, for the Israeli government to be denying millions of people their basic human rights... There is only one solution to the conflict and that is for the aggressive occupation by Israel to stop...
One thing is 100% certain... If the situation was the other way round you can't for one second think that the US wouldn't storm in to rescue the oppressed and right the wrongs...
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by pseudo on Dec 6, 2007 11:18:10 GMT 1,
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by pseudo on Dec 6, 2007 11:18:56 GMT 1,
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by shogun on Dec 6, 2007 11:19:50 GMT 1, Well said Manchester Mike
Well said Manchester Mike
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by pseudo on Dec 6, 2007 11:20:23 GMT 1,
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by pseudo on Dec 6, 2007 11:24:54 GMT 1, "The Balfour Declaration, made in November 1917 by the British Government...was made a) by a European power, b) about a non-European territory, c) in flat disregard of both the presence and wishes of the native majority resident in that territory...[As Balfour himself wrote in 1919], 'The contradiction between the letter of the Covenant (the Anglo French Declaration of 1918 promising the Arabs of the former Ottoman colonies that as a reward for supporting the Allies they could have their independence) is even more flagrant in the case of the independent nation of Palestine than in that of the independent nation of Syria. For in Palestine we do not propose even to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country...The four powers are committed to Zionism and Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-long tradition, in present needs, in future hopes, of far profounder import than the desire and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land,'" Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."
"The Balfour Declaration, made in November 1917 by the British Government...was made a) by a European power, b) about a non-European territory, c) in flat disregard of both the presence and wishes of the native majority resident in that territory...[As Balfour himself wrote in 1919], 'The contradiction between the letter of the Covenant (the Anglo French Declaration of 1918 promising the Arabs of the former Ottoman colonies that as a reward for supporting the Allies they could have their independence) is even more flagrant in the case of the independent nation of Palestine than in that of the independent nation of Syria. For in Palestine we do not propose even to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country...The four powers are committed to Zionism and Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-long tradition, in present needs, in future hopes, of far profounder import than the desire and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land,'" Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."
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