BunnyBoiler
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December 2006
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by BunnyBoiler on Dec 6, 2007 11:25:12 GMT 1, How much abuse can/should one take. I'm not denying the holocaust. It was the most evil thing that man has done to man. But for Jews (sorry Zionists) especially surely they should not persecute others since they themselves were persecuted during the nazi regime. I'm not sure how I have been called a racist?? Can we have a bit of reality here. #1 The Arabs, who already had 22 States were OFFERED a State of their own in 1948 but opted along with the entire Arab world to try and kill the Jews instead. Unfortunately for them it didn't work out that way and most of the Jews only three years out of concentration camps beat them. There was NO American support, no American weapons and only 5 million bullets. The odds were heavily stacked against them. Britain had even armed and trained one of the attacking armies - the Jordanian Army. Please remember that Palestine was not nor had it EVER BEEN a state or a country. It was a territory first controlled in modern times by the Ottoman Turks and then by the Brits. Many Jews lived there along with Arabs. Many cities were majority Jewish and not Arab. Many Jews bought land from Arab landowners. Many Arabs only came to Palestine to work on Jewish farms. And despite the claims being made here, Jews did NOT live peacefully with the Arabs. There were Jewish massacres all the time, some pretty infamous like Hebron for example. Have any of you ever read the travel diaries of Samuel Clemons a/k/a Mark Twain he did for a NYC Travel Magazine which included a trip to the "Holy Land" in the late 1800's ? Had you, you might find it interesting to discover this territory was virtually abandoned. Few lived here unlike the claims of today that would have people believe here we had cities full of "Palestinians" that the Jews with their guilty European backers evicted ... but none of that is true at all. Twain's writings are available for all to read and here's some of what you'd learn "Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes. Over it broods the spell of a curse that has withered its fields and fettered its energies. Where Sodom and Gomorrah reared their domes and towers, that solemn sea now floods the plain, in whose bitter waters no living thing exists--over whose waveless surface the blistering air hangs motionless and dead-- about whose borders nothing grows but weeds, and scattering tufts of cane, and that treacherous fruit that promises refreshment to parching lips, but turns to ashes at the touch. Nazareth is forlorn; about that ford of Jordan where the hosts of Israel entered the Promised Land with songs of rejoicing, one finds only a squalid camp of fantastic Bedouins of the desert; Jericho the accursed, lies a moldering ruin, to-day, even as Joshua's miracle left it more than three thousand years ago; Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and their humiliation, have nothing about them now to remind one that they once knew the high honor of the Saviour's presence; the hallowed spot where the shepherds watched their flocks by night, and where the angels sang Peace on earth, good will to men, is untenanted by any living creature, and unblessed by any feature that is pleasant to the eye" Its patently unfair to remove the historical context from this issue as is being done here. The Israelis didn't just become what they are now - they were forced to. they didn't one day decide to build walls and checkpoints. They were forced to. I suppose they could have dealt with the situation the same way most would deal with and perhaps the mistake is that its gone on as long as it had. Perhaps if the Israelis would have obliterated the Arabs which they could have easily done in later years, many wouldn't have had the time to revise history and mythologize peoples and places. Does anyone think for a minute that had the Arabs had the Jews on the ropes in 1948 or in 1957 or in 1967 or in 1973 that they wouldn't have killed every last one of them ?
That is so not ture! Its not smart making stuff up to prove a point! "Many Arabs only came to Palestine to work on Jewish farms." that's completely made up as the rest of your "Facts"!
How much abuse can/should one take. I'm not denying the holocaust. It was the most evil thing that man has done to man. But for Jews (sorry Zionists) especially surely they should not persecute others since they themselves were persecuted during the nazi regime. I'm not sure how I have been called a racist?? Can we have a bit of reality here. #1 The Arabs, who already had 22 States were OFFERED a State of their own in 1948 but opted along with the entire Arab world to try and kill the Jews instead. Unfortunately for them it didn't work out that way and most of the Jews only three years out of concentration camps beat them. There was NO American support, no American weapons and only 5 million bullets. The odds were heavily stacked against them. Britain had even armed and trained one of the attacking armies - the Jordanian Army. Please remember that Palestine was not nor had it EVER BEEN a state or a country. It was a territory first controlled in modern times by the Ottoman Turks and then by the Brits. Many Jews lived there along with Arabs. Many cities were majority Jewish and not Arab. Many Jews bought land from Arab landowners. Many Arabs only came to Palestine to work on Jewish farms. And despite the claims being made here, Jews did NOT live peacefully with the Arabs. There were Jewish massacres all the time, some pretty infamous like Hebron for example. Have any of you ever read the travel diaries of Samuel Clemons a/k/a Mark Twain he did for a NYC Travel Magazine which included a trip to the "Holy Land" in the late 1800's ? Had you, you might find it interesting to discover this territory was virtually abandoned. Few lived here unlike the claims of today that would have people believe here we had cities full of "Palestinians" that the Jews with their guilty European backers evicted ... but none of that is true at all. Twain's writings are available for all to read and here's some of what you'd learn "Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes. Over it broods the spell of a curse that has withered its fields and fettered its energies. Where Sodom and Gomorrah reared their domes and towers, that solemn sea now floods the plain, in whose bitter waters no living thing exists--over whose waveless surface the blistering air hangs motionless and dead-- about whose borders nothing grows but weeds, and scattering tufts of cane, and that treacherous fruit that promises refreshment to parching lips, but turns to ashes at the touch. Nazareth is forlorn; about that ford of Jordan where the hosts of Israel entered the Promised Land with songs of rejoicing, one finds only a squalid camp of fantastic Bedouins of the desert; Jericho the accursed, lies a moldering ruin, to-day, even as Joshua's miracle left it more than three thousand years ago; Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and their humiliation, have nothing about them now to remind one that they once knew the high honor of the Saviour's presence; the hallowed spot where the shepherds watched their flocks by night, and where the angels sang Peace on earth, good will to men, is untenanted by any living creature, and unblessed by any feature that is pleasant to the eye" Its patently unfair to remove the historical context from this issue as is being done here. The Israelis didn't just become what they are now - they were forced to. they didn't one day decide to build walls and checkpoints. They were forced to. I suppose they could have dealt with the situation the same way most would deal with and perhaps the mistake is that its gone on as long as it had. Perhaps if the Israelis would have obliterated the Arabs which they could have easily done in later years, many wouldn't have had the time to revise history and mythologize peoples and places. Does anyone think for a minute that had the Arabs had the Jews on the ropes in 1948 or in 1957 or in 1967 or in 1973 that they wouldn't have killed every last one of them ? That is so not ture! Its not smart making stuff up to prove a point! "Many Arabs only came to Palestine to work on Jewish farms." that's completely made up as the rest of your "Facts"!
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by pseudo on Dec 6, 2007 11:26:35 GMT 1, Were the early Zionists planning on living side by side with Arabs?
In 1919, the American King-Crane Commission spent six weeks in Syria and Palestine, interviewing delegations and reading petitions. Their report stated, "The commissioners began their study of Zionism with minds predisposed in its favor...The fact came out repeatedly in the Commission's conferences with Jewish representatives that the Zionists looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine, by various forms of purchase...
"If [the] principle [of self-determination] is to rule, and so the wishes of Palestine's population are to be decisive as to what is to be done with Palestine, then it is to be remembered that the non-Jewish population of Palestineโnearly nine-tenths of the wholeโare emphatically against the entire Zionist program...To subject a people so minded to unlimited Jewish immigration, and to steady financial and social pressure to surrender the land, would be a gross violation of the principle just quoted...No British officers, consulted by the Commissioners, believed that the Zionist program could be carried out except by force of arms.The officers generally thought that a force of not less than fifty thousand soldiers would be required even to initiate the program. That of itself is evidence of a strong sense of the injustice of the Zionist program...The initial claim, often submitted by Zionist representatives, that they have a 'right' to Palestine based on occupation of two thousand years ago, can barely be seriously considered." Quoted in "The Israel-Arab Reader" ed. Laquer and Rubin.
Were the early Zionists planning on living side by side with Arabs?
In 1919, the American King-Crane Commission spent six weeks in Syria and Palestine, interviewing delegations and reading petitions. Their report stated, "The commissioners began their study of Zionism with minds predisposed in its favor...The fact came out repeatedly in the Commission's conferences with Jewish representatives that the Zionists looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine, by various forms of purchase...
"If [the] principle [of self-determination] is to rule, and so the wishes of Palestine's population are to be decisive as to what is to be done with Palestine, then it is to be remembered that the non-Jewish population of Palestineโnearly nine-tenths of the wholeโare emphatically against the entire Zionist program...To subject a people so minded to unlimited Jewish immigration, and to steady financial and social pressure to surrender the land, would be a gross violation of the principle just quoted...No British officers, consulted by the Commissioners, believed that the Zionist program could be carried out except by force of arms.The officers generally thought that a force of not less than fifty thousand soldiers would be required even to initiate the program. That of itself is evidence of a strong sense of the injustice of the Zionist program...The initial claim, often submitted by Zionist representatives, that they have a 'right' to Palestine based on occupation of two thousand years ago, can barely be seriously considered." Quoted in "The Israel-Arab Reader" ed. Laquer and Rubin.
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by pseudo on Dec 6, 2007 11:28:13 GMT 1, Side by side - continued
"Zionist land policy was incorporated in the Constitution of the Jewish Agency for Palestine...'land is to be acquired as Jewish property and...the title to the lands acquired is to be taken in the name of the Jewish National Fund, to the end that the same shall be held as the inalienable property of the Jewish people.' The provision goes to stipulate that 'the Agency shall promote agricultural colonization based on Jewish labor'...The effect of this Zionist colonization policy on the Arabs was that land acquired by Jews became extra-territorialized. It ceased to be land from which the Arabs could ever hope to gain any advantage...
"The Zionists made no secret of their intentions, for as early as 1921, Dr. Eder, a member of the Zionist Commission, boldly told the Court of Inquiry, 'there can be only one National Home in Palestine, and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership between Jews and Arabs, but a Jewish preponderance as soon as the numbers of the race are sufficiently increased.' He then asked that only Jews should be allowed to bear arms." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."
Side by side - continued
"Zionist land policy was incorporated in the Constitution of the Jewish Agency for Palestine...'land is to be acquired as Jewish property and...the title to the lands acquired is to be taken in the name of the Jewish National Fund, to the end that the same shall be held as the inalienable property of the Jewish people.' The provision goes to stipulate that 'the Agency shall promote agricultural colonization based on Jewish labor'...The effect of this Zionist colonization policy on the Arabs was that land acquired by Jews became extra-territorialized. It ceased to be land from which the Arabs could ever hope to gain any advantage...
"The Zionists made no secret of their intentions, for as early as 1921, Dr. Eder, a member of the Zionist Commission, boldly told the Court of Inquiry, 'there can be only one National Home in Palestine, and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership between Jews and Arabs, but a Jewish preponderance as soon as the numbers of the race are sufficiently increased.' He then asked that only Jews should be allowed to bear arms." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by pseudo on Dec 6, 2007 11:29:46 GMT 1, Arab resistance to Pre-Israeli Zionism
"In 1936-9, the Palestinian Arabs attempted a nationalist revolt...David Ben-Gurion, eminently a realist, recognized its nature. In internal discussion, he noted that 'in our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us,' but he urged, 'let us not ignore the truth among ourselves.' The truth was that 'politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves...The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside'...The revolt was crushed by the British, with considerable brutality." Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."
Arab resistance to Pre-Israeli Zionism
"In 1936-9, the Palestinian Arabs attempted a nationalist revolt...David Ben-Gurion, eminently a realist, recognized its nature. In internal discussion, he noted that 'in our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us,' but he urged, 'let us not ignore the truth among ourselves.' The truth was that 'politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves...The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside'...The revolt was crushed by the British, with considerable brutality." Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by johnas on Dec 6, 2007 12:41:38 GMT 1, anyone spot this new Lucy M on the Ghetto site this morning? It's called 'Frankencense'
anyone spot this new Lucy M on the Ghetto site this morning? It's called 'Frankencense'
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tilt
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 78
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October 2007
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by tilt on Dec 6, 2007 12:48:55 GMT 1, Where did you find that? Am I blind?
Where did you find that? Am I blind?
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by johnas on Dec 6, 2007 13:03:34 GMT 1, and a faile
and a faile
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by mcnuts on Dec 6, 2007 13:04:17 GMT 1, thought that was new... doesnt seem like anythin special though
thought that was new... doesnt seem like anythin special though
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by johnas on Dec 6, 2007 13:06:32 GMT 1, Abdul Rohman Elmzyen
'Girl with Flower'
Abdul Rohman Elmzyen 'Girl with Flower'
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by johnas on Dec 6, 2007 13:07:54 GMT 1, SG07 Article:
www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/4148/
QUOTE: "However well-intentioned, the sprayers for peace who form the โloose collection of idiot doodlersโ, as the Santaโs Ghetto artists call themselves, come across as patronising, ignorant and even insulting. Nevertheless, the art is undoubtedly provocative - it really just makes you want to take a plane straight to Bethlehem to tear it all down."
SG07 Article: www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/4148/QUOTE: "However well-intentioned, the sprayers for peace who form the โloose collection of idiot doodlersโ, as the Santaโs Ghetto artists call themselves, come across as patronising, ignorant and even insulting. Nevertheless, the art is undoubtedly provocative - it really just makes you want to take a plane straight to Bethlehem to tear it all down."
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Bram
Artist
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November 2007
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by Bram on Dec 6, 2007 13:16:10 GMT 1, no surrender 3D room 3
no surrender 3D room 3
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loucastel
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,551
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October 2007
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by loucastel on Dec 6, 2007 13:23:02 GMT 1, Still nothing in room 4 though.
Still nothing in room 4 though.
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by slowmo on Dec 6, 2007 13:23:58 GMT 1, Spiked's comments seem fair enough
Spiked's comments seem fair enough
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Bram
Artist
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November 2007
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by Bram on Dec 6, 2007 13:24:03 GMT 1, can't remember peter blake being listed
can't remember peter blake being listed
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BONGO
Junior Member
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February 2007
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by BONGO on Dec 6, 2007 13:30:55 GMT 1, BONGO DOES NOT WANT TO GET INVOLVED IN POLITICS, BUT BONGO DOES THINK THAT VISITING BETHLEHEM IS EYE OPENER .
BONGO DOES NOT WANT TO GET INVOLVED IN POLITICS, BUT BONGO DOES THINK THAT VISITING BETHLEHEM IS EYE OPENER .
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gozgoz
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September 2007
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by gozgoz on Dec 6, 2007 13:51:05 GMT 1, can we set up a separate thread on the ART and not the politics side of things?
can we set up a separate thread on the ART and not the politics side of things?
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by lesbianwednesdays on Dec 6, 2007 13:53:57 GMT 1, Its funny I mentioned Nazi Germany and all the 'friends of Israel' claimed I was supporting the Nazi's? it would appear also shogun that you have deleted the post where you asked if anyone defending israel was defending the nazi's? that, you fool, is why i wouldn't even spit on you. i've said many times i'm neither pro or con any side, i don't know enough about it all, yet, i do object to liberal use of the holocaust as a comparison. feel free to check back through all my post, i havent deleted a word yet alone a whole post, and you will clearly see why i hold you in such contempt. plus, to resort to calling me zionist, friend of israel, etc, etc it seems to me you have a very big problem with something and you are applying that to me. don't try to make your point at the expense of others and i may begin to understand you, until then my opinion stays the same. good day.
Its funny I mentioned Nazi Germany and all the 'friends of Israel' claimed I was supporting the Nazi's? it would appear also shogun that you have deleted the post where you asked if anyone defending israel was defending the nazi's? that, you fool, is why i wouldn't even spit on you. i've said many times i'm neither pro or con any side, i don't know enough about it all, yet, i do object to liberal use of the holocaust as a comparison. feel free to check back through all my post, i havent deleted a word yet alone a whole post, and you will clearly see why i hold you in such contempt. plus, to resort to calling me zionist, friend of israel, etc, etc it seems to me you have a very big problem with something and you are applying that to me. don't try to make your point at the expense of others and i may begin to understand you, until then my opinion stays the same. good day.
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by numusic on Dec 6, 2007 13:59:48 GMT 1, can we set up a separate thread on the ART and not the politics side of things?
they're one and the same old bean..question, Rat with catapult, who's he aiming at and why ?
can we set up a separate thread on the ART and not the politics side of things? they're one and the same old bean..question, Rat with catapult, who's he aiming at and why ?
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by johnas on Dec 6, 2007 14:00:22 GMT 1, Spiked's comments seem fair enough
really?
i think it's an article full of cynicism and negativity. i don't think the following comments are fair:
"Thereโs nothing wrong with choosing to donate specifically to childrenโs charities, but this cheeky comment expresses the artistsโ distrust of Palestinian adults, who must be bypassed lest they get up to something dodgy with the money"
- i don't think that's true at all. He's trying to help a section of society and in doing so, it gets spun that he doesn't trust another. I can't see any evidence to support their comment.
"More often than not, they (these escapades into the occupied territories) help perpetuate the simplistic and belittling image of the Palestinians as โvoicelessโ and powerless victims โ or in Banksyโs case, as vermin."
- Banksy and the other artists are using what comes naturally to them to raise awareness in the only way they know how. Who here feels that what they've done is belittling? I sure as hell don't. As for using rats to depict Palestinians as vermin, well perhaps it has something to do with "They exist without permission. They are hated, hunted and persecuted. They live in quiet desperation amongst the filth. And yet they are capable of bringing entire civilisations to their knees" - Bansky, Wall & Piece
"It is not surprising that some locals were offended by Banksyโs image of a donkey having its ID card checked by a soldier. He may want to make the point that Israel is treating Palestinians as animals, but in fact, in his interpretation of the conflict, the Palestinians donโt fare much better."
- I don't think he's trying to convey Palestinians as animals. Surely it's a comment on the claustrophobic environment they live in, where movement is restricted, which Banksy has satirised by a donkey even having it's ID checked!
Spiked's comments seem fair enough really? i think it's an article full of cynicism and negativity. i don't think the following comments are fair: "Thereโs nothing wrong with choosing to donate specifically to childrenโs charities, but this cheeky comment expresses the artistsโ distrust of Palestinian adults, who must be bypassed lest they get up to something dodgy with the money" - i don't think that's true at all. He's trying to help a section of society and in doing so, it gets spun that he doesn't trust another. I can't see any evidence to support their comment. "More often than not, they (these escapades into the occupied territories) help perpetuate the simplistic and belittling image of the Palestinians as โvoicelessโ and powerless victims โ or in Banksyโs case, as vermin." - Banksy and the other artists are using what comes naturally to them to raise awareness in the only way they know how. Who here feels that what they've done is belittling? I sure as hell don't. As for using rats to depict Palestinians as vermin, well perhaps it has something to do with "They exist without permission. They are hated, hunted and persecuted. They live in quiet desperation amongst the filth. And yet they are capable of bringing entire civilisations to their knees" - Bansky, Wall & Piece "It is not surprising that some locals were offended by Banksyโs image of a donkey having its ID card checked by a soldier. He may want to make the point that Israel is treating Palestinians as animals, but in fact, in his interpretation of the conflict, the Palestinians donโt fare much better." - I don't think he's trying to convey Palestinians as animals. Surely it's a comment on the claustrophobic environment they live in, where movement is restricted, which Banksy has satirised by a donkey even having it's ID checked!
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robinbanks
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,319
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October 2007
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by robinbanks on Dec 6, 2007 14:02:00 GMT 1, can we set up a separate thread on the ART and not the politics side of things?
That's exactly what I suggested yesterday. And was roundly ignored.
can we set up a separate thread on the ART and not the politics side of things? That's exactly what I suggested yesterday. And was roundly ignored.
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by numusic on Dec 6, 2007 14:07:32 GMT 1, can we set up a separate thread on the ART and not the politics side of things? That's exactly what I suggested yesterday. And was roundly ignored.
Ignored ? guys, you don't need permission to start a thread ya know.
can we set up a separate thread on the ART and not the politics side of things? That's exactly what I suggested yesterday. And was roundly ignored. Ignored ? guys, you don't need permission to start a thread ya know.
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by valeha on Dec 6, 2007 14:18:53 GMT 1, can we set up a separate thread on the ART and not the politics side of things? they're one and the same old bean..question, Rat with catapult, who's he aiming at and why ?
very good point nuart, you cannot separate art from politics, esp with an artist like Banksy...Bomb Hugger, Love is in the Air, and the countless wall pieces that make a comment on society...often a satirical comment reflecting politics.
Also why did Banksy choose to do the Ghetto in Bethlehem, it's not to raise money for charity alone, he could have held it in london and raised more money.
He may not state his politics or push them on others, I think what his work does is give you an option to decide for yourself, but saying that it is obvious what his opinion is on the apartheid wall.
+1 Nuart.
can we set up a separate thread on the ART and not the politics side of things? they're one and the same old bean..question, Rat with catapult, who's he aiming at and why ? very good point nuart, you cannot separate art from politics, esp with an artist like Banksy...Bomb Hugger, Love is in the Air, and the countless wall pieces that make a comment on society...often a satirical comment reflecting politics. Also why did Banksy choose to do the Ghetto in Bethlehem, it's not to raise money for charity alone, he could have held it in london and raised more money. He may not state his politics or push them on others, I think what his work does is give you an option to decide for yourself, but saying that it is obvious what his opinion is on the apartheid wall. +1 Nuart.
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robinbanks
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,319
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October 2007
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by robinbanks on Dec 6, 2007 14:25:41 GMT 1, That's exactly what I suggested yesterday. And was roundly ignored. Ignored ? guys, you don't need permission to start a thread ya know.
Right, it's done. Santa's Ghetto = Art thread is now open. Please leave all politics at the door ;D
That's exactly what I suggested yesterday. And was roundly ignored. Ignored ? guys, you don't need permission to start a thread ya know. Right, it's done. Santa's Ghetto = Art thread is now open. Please leave all politics at the door ;D
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by bob1 on Dec 6, 2007 14:55:24 GMT 1, The denial of history cannot be left unchallenged; therefore I find it important to challenge the lies and myths that bleed so brazenly from Greeneyโs last two posts.
History is always dependable on where you stand, so I ask again after reading all posts to do your own homework and come to your own conclusion. Do not take my word for it or any other forum member, it is of the up most importance to always ask questions and never take anything for fact until you can prove it yourself.
Under the guide of Theodor Herzel the founding father or political Zionism, The Zionist movement, displayed two features that were to be fundamental and enduring importance in its subsequent history; the non-recognition of a Palestinian national entity and the quest for an alliance with a great power external to the Middle East. Bypassing the Palestinians was the trend in Zionist policy from the First Zionist Congress onward. The un-stated assumption of Herzel and his successors was that the Zionist movement would achieve its goal not through an understanding with the local Palestinians but through an alliance with the dominant great power of the day.
Keeping in line with this denial is greeneyโs magnificent assumption that โPalestine was not nor had it EVER BEEN a state or a countryโ. He is correct in stating that it was not a nation state but a territory controlled by great powers, he seems however to bypass the fact that on that land called Palestine there lived a people who plowed the land and saw themselves as Palestinians.
At the time of the Balfour declaration Palestinian Arabs made up 90 percent of the population making them the overwhelming majority. It tickleโs me when people try to deny the Palestinian entity, as I have stated before according to UNRWA there were 4,186,711 Registered Palestinian Refugees as of June 2004, I suppose these are just figments of wild imagination!
Mark Twainโs orientalist (orientalism, Europeโs and Americaโs fascination with, and its desire to control the โโOrientโ) writings of the region can be in no way used as proof for the great myth โA land without people, for a people without landโ He wrote the article a whole century and half before the birth of modern Israel and like many great orienalist writing of the time was awash with bias.
Israeli Labour Prime Minister Shimon Peres in 1986 said something quite similar to Twainโs falsehood. But the Second Zionist Congress in 1898 in Basle, heard quite a different story, at the conference they were told โthere were 650,000 Arabs living on the most fertile landโ. In recent years there have been some rather more honest accounts from mainstream Zionists, one of which the former deputy Mayor of Jerusalem Meron Benvenisti, whose book, Sacred Landscape: The Buried History of the Holy Land since 1948, exposes the ruthless ideological manipulation of the Zionist map-makers and there role in concealing Palestinian peasant villages.
For more information on the land of Palestine and its people between 1700-1900, I would suggest Doumaniโs book Rediscovering Palestine, Merchants and Peasants in Jabal Nablus. A very insightful book that quashes an ugly lie that, โnothing grows but weedsโ. Tobacco, water melonโs, Cotton, Olive Groves and โthat treacherous fruit that turns to ashes at the touchโ the orange were all produce of Palestine (may I add that the great Israeli export the Jaffa orange did not miraculously appear with its new found owners).
I suppose Greeney sees all Arabs as the same when he cries that the Arabs had โ22 statesโ given that argument the Zionist movement could have nicked one of the European countries as they had 40 of them, those greedy Euros! Let me also make clear that Palestine was not the sole and only place being touted as the new Zionist homeland, parts of South America were also considered.
A people and their land is not to be won by ethnic cleansing and war, this is not some cheap raffle. These are peoples and their livelihood we are talking about. One side says they have Gods divine right to the land, the other can produce land deeds, again facts are facts but truth can be easily manipulated.
In 1923 Zeโev jabotinsky an ardent Jewish Nationalist and founder of Revisionist Zionism and the spiritual father of the Israeli right produced a paper titled โThe Iron Wallโ in it he acknowledged:
โEvery indigenous people, will resist alien settlers as long as they see any hope of ridding themselves of the danger of foreign settlement. This is how Arabs will behave and go on behaving so long as they possess a gleam of hope that they can prevent โPalestineโ from becoming the Land of Israelโ
He concluded:
โ We cannot promise any reward either to the Arabs of Palestine or to the Arabs outside Palestine. A voluntary agreement is unattainable. And so those who regard an accord with the Arabs as an indispensable condition of Zionism must admit to themselves today that this condition cannot be attained and hence that we must give up Zionism. We must either suspend our settlements efforts or continue them without paying attention to the mood of the natives. Settlements can thus develop under the protection of a force that is not dependent on the local population, behind an iron wall which they will be powerless to break downโ
The only person removing โhistorical context from the issueโ is you Greeney, the Zionist were not โforced to build checkpoints and wallsโ, they knew full well that by robbing a people of there home they would have to guard it forcefully without compassion.
Greeney wrote
โSuppose they could have dealt with the situation the same way most would deal with and perhaps the mistake is that itโs gone on as long as it had. Perhaps if the Israelis would have obliterated the Arabs which they could have easily done in later years, many wouldn't have had the time to revise history and mythologize peoples and places.โ
I suppose your right Greeney maybe the Zionistโs should have been more forceful and then we would be only able to talk of Palestinians in the same terms as say Native Americans or Aborigines, I am sure that would have pleased you no end.
Regarding your second post Greeney I will only be brief, as I have been sitting here to long countering the lies you weave with the wickedness of a Widows web. I have said before most Palestinians resist by surviving, raising a family and getting on with life in the hope that one day they will be free from such oppression.
There was no Hamas twenty years ago; there was a nationalist resistance, which Israel and the west crushed with clutched tight mighty fists. This left the void open for alternative movements and organizations, which might I add Israel and the West blatantly encouraged as a counter balance to Arab nationalism (see the Muslim Brotherhood against Nasser in Egypt or the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan against the Soviets for examples).
Israel and its sponsors have continually refused to negotiate in any fair way or give concessions to the most moderate of leaders. During the Oslo Accords, Barak accelerated the building of settlements and offered nothing in terms or real weight or hope, certainly nothing that any Palestinian leader could accept without being ridiculed by his own people.
Israel refused to deal with Fatah now they refuse to deal with Hamas, (hamas has for two years stopped suicide bombing and since being elected offered a 16 Hudah {truce} to negotiate a withdrawal to the UN 1967 agreed borders). Hamas won because Abbas (Fatah) for all his groveling and hand shaking was giving nothing in return. Years of a Fatah lead government with no rewards and plenty of corruption lead the people to vote for change.
American requested elections produced a Hamas government (an election that was far more trustworthy and fair than that of G.W. Bushโs coup to office!). Hamas did not have to but for the good of there people accepted a coalition government with Fatah, this again was not good enough, and therefore the West and Israel starved the Palestinian people by cutting off money that was rightfully theirs.
Lets be of no illusion, Hamas wants dialogue and wants to talk, it is Israel that refuses to talk with Hamas just like they did with Arafat whilst he sat frail and weak in his Ramallah compound whilst the Apaches soared above leaving devastation in their wake.
Islamic Jihad and Al-Quaeda are securing very small footholdโs in Palestine, never before has this happened. The next twenty years will see these organizations grow if no dialogue and progress is made. The mutated form of resistance that may bestow Palestine and Israel will be much uglier in form than any of the previous.
It is you Greeney that is โnaรฏveโ in thinking that the situation can be boxed into a religious one, religion plays a part but first and foremost this is a political situation with political goals and consequences. George Bush may spout that he is on a โmission from Godโ and that he represents โChristian valuesโ. But the โWar on Terrorโ has nothing to do with Christian values and God like missions and more to do with imperial adventures and counterbalancing the growing threat of China by securing the access and supply of Oil rich states. Hamas and the like rally round the banner of Islam and garner many followers just like Bush and the Christian Right, but their party and movement is political first and foremost.
I am a true believer that the only viable (and I admit hardest) solution to this problem is the one state solution. A state free of prejudice of color, creed or race. A state for Jews, Christians and Muslims alike to live and prosper in equality. This may seem far-fetched and idealistic but it is no way impossibility. It will take great leaders of courage and strength on both sides and of course an un-medaling and unbiased outside world, but its surely possible.
Jews and Arabs are brothers, (see Abraham or Ibrahim) of course they are different in many aspects but you only have to listen to there music, eat there food, look at there appearance to see that they are one and the same. Both peoples deserve to live in peace and prosper but until the โiron wallโ is brought crumbling down and equality and freedom is bestowed upon all, we will continue to witness and be part of the destructive and oppressive situation that is the Palestine and Israeli conflict.
For Love
Shalom, Salaam
Bob
Again please donโt take my word for it!
The denial of history cannot be left unchallenged; therefore I find it important to challenge the lies and myths that bleed so brazenly from Greeneyโs last two posts.
History is always dependable on where you stand, so I ask again after reading all posts to do your own homework and come to your own conclusion. Do not take my word for it or any other forum member, it is of the up most importance to always ask questions and never take anything for fact until you can prove it yourself.
Under the guide of Theodor Herzel the founding father or political Zionism, The Zionist movement, displayed two features that were to be fundamental and enduring importance in its subsequent history; the non-recognition of a Palestinian national entity and the quest for an alliance with a great power external to the Middle East. Bypassing the Palestinians was the trend in Zionist policy from the First Zionist Congress onward. The un-stated assumption of Herzel and his successors was that the Zionist movement would achieve its goal not through an understanding with the local Palestinians but through an alliance with the dominant great power of the day.
Keeping in line with this denial is greeneyโs magnificent assumption that โPalestine was not nor had it EVER BEEN a state or a countryโ. He is correct in stating that it was not a nation state but a territory controlled by great powers, he seems however to bypass the fact that on that land called Palestine there lived a people who plowed the land and saw themselves as Palestinians.
At the time of the Balfour declaration Palestinian Arabs made up 90 percent of the population making them the overwhelming majority. It tickleโs me when people try to deny the Palestinian entity, as I have stated before according to UNRWA there were 4,186,711 Registered Palestinian Refugees as of June 2004, I suppose these are just figments of wild imagination!
Mark Twainโs orientalist (orientalism, Europeโs and Americaโs fascination with, and its desire to control the โโOrientโ) writings of the region can be in no way used as proof for the great myth โA land without people, for a people without landโ He wrote the article a whole century and half before the birth of modern Israel and like many great orienalist writing of the time was awash with bias.
Israeli Labour Prime Minister Shimon Peres in 1986 said something quite similar to Twainโs falsehood. But the Second Zionist Congress in 1898 in Basle, heard quite a different story, at the conference they were told โthere were 650,000 Arabs living on the most fertile landโ. In recent years there have been some rather more honest accounts from mainstream Zionists, one of which the former deputy Mayor of Jerusalem Meron Benvenisti, whose book, Sacred Landscape: The Buried History of the Holy Land since 1948, exposes the ruthless ideological manipulation of the Zionist map-makers and there role in concealing Palestinian peasant villages.
For more information on the land of Palestine and its people between 1700-1900, I would suggest Doumaniโs book Rediscovering Palestine, Merchants and Peasants in Jabal Nablus. A very insightful book that quashes an ugly lie that, โnothing grows but weedsโ. Tobacco, water melonโs, Cotton, Olive Groves and โthat treacherous fruit that turns to ashes at the touchโ the orange were all produce of Palestine (may I add that the great Israeli export the Jaffa orange did not miraculously appear with its new found owners).
I suppose Greeney sees all Arabs as the same when he cries that the Arabs had โ22 statesโ given that argument the Zionist movement could have nicked one of the European countries as they had 40 of them, those greedy Euros! Let me also make clear that Palestine was not the sole and only place being touted as the new Zionist homeland, parts of South America were also considered.
A people and their land is not to be won by ethnic cleansing and war, this is not some cheap raffle. These are peoples and their livelihood we are talking about. One side says they have Gods divine right to the land, the other can produce land deeds, again facts are facts but truth can be easily manipulated.
In 1923 Zeโev jabotinsky an ardent Jewish Nationalist and founder of Revisionist Zionism and the spiritual father of the Israeli right produced a paper titled โThe Iron Wallโ in it he acknowledged:
โEvery indigenous people, will resist alien settlers as long as they see any hope of ridding themselves of the danger of foreign settlement. This is how Arabs will behave and go on behaving so long as they possess a gleam of hope that they can prevent โPalestineโ from becoming the Land of Israelโ
He concluded:
โ We cannot promise any reward either to the Arabs of Palestine or to the Arabs outside Palestine. A voluntary agreement is unattainable. And so those who regard an accord with the Arabs as an indispensable condition of Zionism must admit to themselves today that this condition cannot be attained and hence that we must give up Zionism. We must either suspend our settlements efforts or continue them without paying attention to the mood of the natives. Settlements can thus develop under the protection of a force that is not dependent on the local population, behind an iron wall which they will be powerless to break downโ
The only person removing โhistorical context from the issueโ is you Greeney, the Zionist were not โforced to build checkpoints and wallsโ, they knew full well that by robbing a people of there home they would have to guard it forcefully without compassion.
Greeney wrote
โSuppose they could have dealt with the situation the same way most would deal with and perhaps the mistake is that itโs gone on as long as it had. Perhaps if the Israelis would have obliterated the Arabs which they could have easily done in later years, many wouldn't have had the time to revise history and mythologize peoples and places.โ
I suppose your right Greeney maybe the Zionistโs should have been more forceful and then we would be only able to talk of Palestinians in the same terms as say Native Americans or Aborigines, I am sure that would have pleased you no end.
Regarding your second post Greeney I will only be brief, as I have been sitting here to long countering the lies you weave with the wickedness of a Widows web. I have said before most Palestinians resist by surviving, raising a family and getting on with life in the hope that one day they will be free from such oppression.
There was no Hamas twenty years ago; there was a nationalist resistance, which Israel and the west crushed with clutched tight mighty fists. This left the void open for alternative movements and organizations, which might I add Israel and the West blatantly encouraged as a counter balance to Arab nationalism (see the Muslim Brotherhood against Nasser in Egypt or the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan against the Soviets for examples).
Israel and its sponsors have continually refused to negotiate in any fair way or give concessions to the most moderate of leaders. During the Oslo Accords, Barak accelerated the building of settlements and offered nothing in terms or real weight or hope, certainly nothing that any Palestinian leader could accept without being ridiculed by his own people.
Israel refused to deal with Fatah now they refuse to deal with Hamas, (hamas has for two years stopped suicide bombing and since being elected offered a 16 Hudah {truce} to negotiate a withdrawal to the UN 1967 agreed borders). Hamas won because Abbas (Fatah) for all his groveling and hand shaking was giving nothing in return. Years of a Fatah lead government with no rewards and plenty of corruption lead the people to vote for change.
American requested elections produced a Hamas government (an election that was far more trustworthy and fair than that of G.W. Bushโs coup to office!). Hamas did not have to but for the good of there people accepted a coalition government with Fatah, this again was not good enough, and therefore the West and Israel starved the Palestinian people by cutting off money that was rightfully theirs.
Lets be of no illusion, Hamas wants dialogue and wants to talk, it is Israel that refuses to talk with Hamas just like they did with Arafat whilst he sat frail and weak in his Ramallah compound whilst the Apaches soared above leaving devastation in their wake.
Islamic Jihad and Al-Quaeda are securing very small footholdโs in Palestine, never before has this happened. The next twenty years will see these organizations grow if no dialogue and progress is made. The mutated form of resistance that may bestow Palestine and Israel will be much uglier in form than any of the previous.
It is you Greeney that is โnaรฏveโ in thinking that the situation can be boxed into a religious one, religion plays a part but first and foremost this is a political situation with political goals and consequences. George Bush may spout that he is on a โmission from Godโ and that he represents โChristian valuesโ. But the โWar on Terrorโ has nothing to do with Christian values and God like missions and more to do with imperial adventures and counterbalancing the growing threat of China by securing the access and supply of Oil rich states. Hamas and the like rally round the banner of Islam and garner many followers just like Bush and the Christian Right, but their party and movement is political first and foremost.
I am a true believer that the only viable (and I admit hardest) solution to this problem is the one state solution. A state free of prejudice of color, creed or race. A state for Jews, Christians and Muslims alike to live and prosper in equality. This may seem far-fetched and idealistic but it is no way impossibility. It will take great leaders of courage and strength on both sides and of course an un-medaling and unbiased outside world, but its surely possible.
Jews and Arabs are brothers, (see Abraham or Ibrahim) of course they are different in many aspects but you only have to listen to there music, eat there food, look at there appearance to see that they are one and the same. Both peoples deserve to live in peace and prosper but until the โiron wallโ is brought crumbling down and equality and freedom is bestowed upon all, we will continue to witness and be part of the destructive and oppressive situation that is the Palestine and Israeli conflict.
For Love
Shalom, Salaam
Bob
Again please donโt take my word for it!
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by mcnuts on Dec 6, 2007 15:18:14 GMT 1, Pop bitch >> West Banksy << TV bloke doesn't know art from elbow
Banksy is holding his annual Santa's Ghetto show in Bethlehem this year, and is featuring quite a few up-and-coming Palestinian artists. It's no secret that Banksy likes to remain anonymous and doesn't attend his own shows but this foxed the ITN correspondent who turned up at the opening. "No Banksy, no story", he said and went back to Jerusalem.
A few hours later, all the other news networks were covering the story. The ITN news editor calls the show's publicists to apologise and ask for some pictures so they could run the story too. Needless to say, the answer was...er...no.
Pop bitch >> West Banksy << TV bloke doesn't know art from elbow
Banksy is holding his annual Santa's Ghetto show in Bethlehem this year, and is featuring quite a few up-and-coming Palestinian artists. It's no secret that Banksy likes to remain anonymous and doesn't attend his own shows but this foxed the ITN correspondent who turned up at the opening. "No Banksy, no story", he said and went back to Jerusalem.
A few hours later, all the other news networks were covering the story. The ITN news editor calls the show's publicists to apologise and ask for some pictures so they could run the story too. Needless to say, the answer was...er...no.
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greeneny
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 118
๐๐ป 1
October 2007
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by greeneny on Dec 6, 2007 16:31:53 GMT 1, What people seem to forget at times when this is discussed as it is a war, Palestine is being forcibly occupied by Israel and they are fighting back against them.
Yeah that sounds really good ... but I wonder why occupation is an issue.After all the territory had already been occupied before Israel took it in a war. Gaza by Egypt and the West Bank by Jordan. I don't hear you condemning that occupation, why not? And someone here said it's not a religious issue its political. No, sorry, its all about religion and racism and bigotry. I thought you Leftist Brits were big on racism how come that all flies out the window where Jews are concerned?
I reiterate for clarity
Gaza had been occupied by Egypt The W. Bank was occupied by Jordan
Where was all the condemnation? Where was all the rockets and missiles and mortars and suicide bombings? Where?
"Why are they firing rockets into Israel? Because they're defending themselves, they're trying to fight back against their occupation and oppression in the best way they know how to."
Defending themselves from what? There are no Israelis in Gaza and haven't been for years now.
"I'm making an assumption here but I see you are from New York, can I ask, are you Jewish? I think that if you are that your view on this may be more than a little one sided."
Then you have little knowledge of what the typical Jewish disposition is. How many Jews over there were leading various boycotts against Israel? My understanding is more then a few. How many Jews are at the forefront of all sorts of anti Israel peace groups over there? Plenty right?
So how do you figure that? How's that work. If you're a Jew but happen to be saying the "right" words, you're OK but if you're a Jew and have a different opinion you're biased?
According to some I'm a descendent of apes and pigs. Do you think Jews are taught that about Muslims? Do you think Jews have cartoon shows broadcast to their children celebrating martydom and blowing up Jews?
Where's your condemnation for that?
"The views of people in the Western World in general on this subject are very one sided as they have only been fed one side of the information (the Israeli side of it) through their news bulletins and newspapers."
Really, funny but I think you've got it upside down. Most of your media is full of Arab money and has been for ages. Have you any idea how much money comes from Arab sources primarily Saudi? How much goes to your Universities for specific programs? How much is in your radio and TV? How much in your newspapers? And BBC slanted towards Israel? The Guardian? You must be kidding.
"Search on the internet and you hear a very one sided story... You hear about the Palestinian attacks, you hear about the suicide bombers in Israel, but you don't hear the other side to the story... the daily oppression, the shootings, the people going missing, the threat of waking up one morning to find the IDF are going to demolish your home... all part of life living in a forcibly occupied territory."
I don't know where you're searching but when i do it the first few pages are all Arab, pro Palestinian or far Left sites ALL trashing Israel and some of course blaming Jews for 9/11, blaming jews for the war on terror, accusing jews of creating Bin Laden ... All of what you describe is tragic but certainly not the fault of the Israelis who have wanted peace since its inception. Its the fault of Islamist ski masked thugs who not only terrorize Israelis but terrorize their own people. Do you really believe the average Palestinian Arab can speak out for peace with Israel without the threat of murder? Pleeease
"The Israeli argument is if they do give the land back the attacks won't stop"
Its not an argument. Just look at Gaza where you yourself didn't even know the Israelis left there years ago. What was the result? Daily rocket fire into Sderot? Mortar shelling into Israel? Its not an argument or hypothetical, its reality. R.E.A.L.I.T.Y - follow the story if you want to know the facts. GAZA ... look it up everyday and see how many rockets are fired into Israel now that you know there are NO Israelis there.
It doesn't matter how this started and what view you take on the history, I know what mine is and I'm sure I know what yours is too"
But here's the problem with this. Your opinion is somewhat based on misinformation. The fact that Israel uprooted thousands of Israelis families who were living in Gaza in some instances for 30 years, and forced them to leave all in the hopes that the Arabs would then be able to begin to build some semblance of a society and also in the hopes that the Israeli people would see that if they did leave the occupied territory then the violence WOULD stop - JUST LIKE YOU'RE SAYING - except that's not what happened was it? The problem is Israel doesn't think anyone is in control of these Arabs or they aren't sure who's in control. Is it the Islamists who have vowed to kill the Jews no matter where they are ? is it the Iranians who have been arming and training Hamas and Hezbullah and have their own agenda vis a vis Israel's existence? You're asking Israel to just believe something that has NEVER been shown to be true? Isn't that the definition of insanity? It's unrealistic. The Arabs have yet to show they really are interested in something other then the destruction of the Jews. So far that's just not happened no matter what you say.
"there is no justification for what is happening now, for the Israeli government to be denying millions of people their basic human rights... There is only one solution to the conflict and that is for the aggressive occupation by Israel to stop..."
You mean defending yourself is no justification? You mean the fact that the separation wall has reduced suicide bombing by 76% isn't a justification for building it? Hogwash. and once again you are holding Israel to a standard you would hold no one else to. Its silly.
"One thing is 100% certain... If the situation was the other way round you can't for one second think that the US wouldn't storm in to rescue the oppressed and right the wrongs..."
The US? What's the US have to do with any of this? Perhaps you aren't aware that America never supported Israel until the late 1960's when Egypt and Syria moved into the Soviet sphere. With five Arab armies attacking in 1948, America did NOT offer a single bullet or gun. And had Israel lost, despite your fantasy claims, America would have done nothing and Israel would have disappeared. The claims that its Israel's fault the Islamic world is in chaos would of course also be gone, but I'm sure the Left woul find some other excuse to blame anyone other then who is actually at fault.
Just keep in mind the gangs of machete holding crowds screaming for that teachers head. Keep in mind the vids of those being beheaded including Danny Perl who wasn't asked whether he was a Zionist but whether he was a Jew - that for all those who try the despicable tactic of substituting the word "Zionists" for Jew.
Zionism s the belief that Jews are entitled to their historical homeland and at least 90 percent of all Jews believe this no matter what some of you believe or how much you attempt to demonize the word. I'm very proud to be a Zionist as is every other Jew I know AND here thankfully in America many NON Jews as well.
Just remember no matter how many stories of the Balfour Declaration and the endless Zionist meetings that were or weren't held that your far Left and Islamist groups peddle as some excuse for their myth making. Here's one fact that they just refuse to deal with.
In 1948 The Arabs chose to destroy the Jews instead of accepting exactly what they are asking for now. NONE of this ever have had to happen. There would be NO occupation had there not been yet another war waged to destroy the Jews. But occupation already existed under Jordan and Egypt and not a single condemnation from ANYONE was ever uttered. Why?
Double standards? You bet
What people seem to forget at times when this is discussed as it is a war, Palestine is being forcibly occupied by Israel and they are fighting back against them.
Yeah that sounds really good ... but I wonder why occupation is an issue.After all the territory had already been occupied before Israel took it in a war. Gaza by Egypt and the West Bank by Jordan. I don't hear you condemning that occupation, why not? And someone here said it's not a religious issue its political. No, sorry, its all about religion and racism and bigotry. I thought you Leftist Brits were big on racism how come that all flies out the window where Jews are concerned?
I reiterate for clarity
Gaza had been occupied by Egypt The W. Bank was occupied by Jordan
Where was all the condemnation? Where was all the rockets and missiles and mortars and suicide bombings? Where?
"Why are they firing rockets into Israel? Because they're defending themselves, they're trying to fight back against their occupation and oppression in the best way they know how to."
Defending themselves from what? There are no Israelis in Gaza and haven't been for years now.
"I'm making an assumption here but I see you are from New York, can I ask, are you Jewish? I think that if you are that your view on this may be more than a little one sided."
Then you have little knowledge of what the typical Jewish disposition is. How many Jews over there were leading various boycotts against Israel? My understanding is more then a few. How many Jews are at the forefront of all sorts of anti Israel peace groups over there? Plenty right?
So how do you figure that? How's that work. If you're a Jew but happen to be saying the "right" words, you're OK but if you're a Jew and have a different opinion you're biased?
According to some I'm a descendent of apes and pigs. Do you think Jews are taught that about Muslims? Do you think Jews have cartoon shows broadcast to their children celebrating martydom and blowing up Jews?
Where's your condemnation for that?
"The views of people in the Western World in general on this subject are very one sided as they have only been fed one side of the information (the Israeli side of it) through their news bulletins and newspapers."
Really, funny but I think you've got it upside down. Most of your media is full of Arab money and has been for ages. Have you any idea how much money comes from Arab sources primarily Saudi? How much goes to your Universities for specific programs? How much is in your radio and TV? How much in your newspapers? And BBC slanted towards Israel? The Guardian? You must be kidding.
"Search on the internet and you hear a very one sided story... You hear about the Palestinian attacks, you hear about the suicide bombers in Israel, but you don't hear the other side to the story... the daily oppression, the shootings, the people going missing, the threat of waking up one morning to find the IDF are going to demolish your home... all part of life living in a forcibly occupied territory."
I don't know where you're searching but when i do it the first few pages are all Arab, pro Palestinian or far Left sites ALL trashing Israel and some of course blaming Jews for 9/11, blaming jews for the war on terror, accusing jews of creating Bin Laden ... All of what you describe is tragic but certainly not the fault of the Israelis who have wanted peace since its inception. Its the fault of Islamist ski masked thugs who not only terrorize Israelis but terrorize their own people. Do you really believe the average Palestinian Arab can speak out for peace with Israel without the threat of murder? Pleeease
"The Israeli argument is if they do give the land back the attacks won't stop"
Its not an argument. Just look at Gaza where you yourself didn't even know the Israelis left there years ago. What was the result? Daily rocket fire into Sderot? Mortar shelling into Israel? Its not an argument or hypothetical, its reality. R.E.A.L.I.T.Y - follow the story if you want to know the facts. GAZA ... look it up everyday and see how many rockets are fired into Israel now that you know there are NO Israelis there.
It doesn't matter how this started and what view you take on the history, I know what mine is and I'm sure I know what yours is too"
But here's the problem with this. Your opinion is somewhat based on misinformation. The fact that Israel uprooted thousands of Israelis families who were living in Gaza in some instances for 30 years, and forced them to leave all in the hopes that the Arabs would then be able to begin to build some semblance of a society and also in the hopes that the Israeli people would see that if they did leave the occupied territory then the violence WOULD stop - JUST LIKE YOU'RE SAYING - except that's not what happened was it? The problem is Israel doesn't think anyone is in control of these Arabs or they aren't sure who's in control. Is it the Islamists who have vowed to kill the Jews no matter where they are ? is it the Iranians who have been arming and training Hamas and Hezbullah and have their own agenda vis a vis Israel's existence? You're asking Israel to just believe something that has NEVER been shown to be true? Isn't that the definition of insanity? It's unrealistic. The Arabs have yet to show they really are interested in something other then the destruction of the Jews. So far that's just not happened no matter what you say.
"there is no justification for what is happening now, for the Israeli government to be denying millions of people their basic human rights... There is only one solution to the conflict and that is for the aggressive occupation by Israel to stop..."
You mean defending yourself is no justification? You mean the fact that the separation wall has reduced suicide bombing by 76% isn't a justification for building it? Hogwash. and once again you are holding Israel to a standard you would hold no one else to. Its silly.
"One thing is 100% certain... If the situation was the other way round you can't for one second think that the US wouldn't storm in to rescue the oppressed and right the wrongs..."
The US? What's the US have to do with any of this? Perhaps you aren't aware that America never supported Israel until the late 1960's when Egypt and Syria moved into the Soviet sphere. With five Arab armies attacking in 1948, America did NOT offer a single bullet or gun. And had Israel lost, despite your fantasy claims, America would have done nothing and Israel would have disappeared. The claims that its Israel's fault the Islamic world is in chaos would of course also be gone, but I'm sure the Left woul find some other excuse to blame anyone other then who is actually at fault.
Just keep in mind the gangs of machete holding crowds screaming for that teachers head. Keep in mind the vids of those being beheaded including Danny Perl who wasn't asked whether he was a Zionist but whether he was a Jew - that for all those who try the despicable tactic of substituting the word "Zionists" for Jew.
Zionism s the belief that Jews are entitled to their historical homeland and at least 90 percent of all Jews believe this no matter what some of you believe or how much you attempt to demonize the word. I'm very proud to be a Zionist as is every other Jew I know AND here thankfully in America many NON Jews as well.
Just remember no matter how many stories of the Balfour Declaration and the endless Zionist meetings that were or weren't held that your far Left and Islamist groups peddle as some excuse for their myth making. Here's one fact that they just refuse to deal with.
In 1948 The Arabs chose to destroy the Jews instead of accepting exactly what they are asking for now. NONE of this ever have had to happen. There would be NO occupation had there not been yet another war waged to destroy the Jews. But occupation already existed under Jordan and Egypt and not a single condemnation from ANYONE was ever uttered. Why?
Double standards? You bet
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by valeha on Dec 6, 2007 16:49:29 GMT 1, Greeneny, it's interesting you chose not to counterpose the arguments put forward by Bob, perhaps because they are facts you are unable to spin your web of deceit around, you talk as if you are an expert, but I see no hard facts, all I see is falesy, and blindness from the truth.
It is clearly not a religious issue, Islam just like most religions is not a homogeneous entity, and it is fighting against itself right now. religion is used, as it has been by the Zionists and organizations like Hamas alike to galvanise support for POLITICAL gain.
The thing is you are clearly so blinkered it seems like nothing is seeping into your mind.
Your points, clearly show that you do not believe there can ever be peace, instead you are happy to sit by and allow the crime that is the occupation of Palestine exist, in the name of protecting Israel.
I pity you.
Take care.
Peace. V
Greeneny, it's interesting you chose not to counterpose the arguments put forward by Bob, perhaps because they are facts you are unable to spin your web of deceit around, you talk as if you are an expert, but I see no hard facts, all I see is falesy, and blindness from the truth.
It is clearly not a religious issue, Islam just like most religions is not a homogeneous entity, and it is fighting against itself right now. religion is used, as it has been by the Zionists and organizations like Hamas alike to galvanise support for POLITICAL gain.
The thing is you are clearly so blinkered it seems like nothing is seeping into your mind.
Your points, clearly show that you do not believe there can ever be peace, instead you are happy to sit by and allow the crime that is the occupation of Palestine exist, in the name of protecting Israel.
I pity you.
Take care.
Peace. V
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monstris
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 424
๐๐ป 2
September 2006
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by monstris on Dec 6, 2007 17:01:55 GMT 1, Pop bi tch >> West Banksy << TV bloke doesn't know art from elbow Banksy is holding his annual Santa's Ghetto show in Bethlehem this year, and is featuring quite a few up-and-coming Palestinian artists. It's no secret that Banksy likes to remain anonymous and doesn't attend his own shows but this foxed the ITN correspondent who turned up at the opening. "No Banksy, no story", he said and went back to Jerusalem. A few hours later, all the other news networks were covering the story. The ITN news editor calls the show's publicists to apologise and ask for some pictures so they could run the story too. Needless to say, the answer was...er...no.
Er...a story as per leaked on this very messageboard a few days ago by er...me.
Pop bi tch >> West Banksy << TV bloke doesn't know art from elbow Banksy is holding his annual Santa's Ghetto show in Bethlehem this year, and is featuring quite a few up-and-coming Palestinian artists. It's no secret that Banksy likes to remain anonymous and doesn't attend his own shows but this foxed the ITN correspondent who turned up at the opening. "No Banksy, no story", he said and went back to Jerusalem. A few hours later, all the other news networks were covering the story. The ITN news editor calls the show's publicists to apologise and ask for some pictures so they could run the story too. Needless to say, the answer was...er...no. Er...a story as per leaked on this very messageboard a few days ago by er...me.
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by bob1 on Dec 6, 2007 17:03:29 GMT 1, I honestly have not got the time to keep on replying to such falsehoods. Just look at the way you write and how you seem to like name calling and pigeon-holing "lefty Brits" for example.
Anyway your rabid statements having nothing to back them up. I quoted from the founders of Zionism, the people that started this train that derailed crashing in flames since birth, and you have the gaul to call this lefty propaganda.
My friend your argument (if you could call it that) is nothing more than a myth that keeps you nicely tucked up in bed at night and allows you not care about humans being killed and subjected to years of oppression. Such Racist and Islamaphobic rants provide nothing in terms of factual information and cannot be used as solid argument. (see slavery and how Blacks were perceived as sub-human in order to enslave them, good old racism!) .
I am against all oppression, whether it be the Israeli government or tin pot Arab dictators like Mubarak of Egypt or the Casino Royale Sheik's, the Saudi Royal family. I am a human that cares for all humans, I condemn the killing of innocent lives whoever they may be, the thing is you don't. For the sake of both sides the occupation needs to end.
P.S.
Gaza the most densely populated place on this planet is being starved to death and is still being occupied.
Shalom, Salaam
I honestly have not got the time to keep on replying to such falsehoods. Just look at the way you write and how you seem to like name calling and pigeon-holing "lefty Brits" for example.
Anyway your rabid statements having nothing to back them up. I quoted from the founders of Zionism, the people that started this train that derailed crashing in flames since birth, and you have the gaul to call this lefty propaganda.
My friend your argument (if you could call it that) is nothing more than a myth that keeps you nicely tucked up in bed at night and allows you not care about humans being killed and subjected to years of oppression. Such Racist and Islamaphobic rants provide nothing in terms of factual information and cannot be used as solid argument. (see slavery and how Blacks were perceived as sub-human in order to enslave them, good old racism!) .
I am against all oppression, whether it be the Israeli government or tin pot Arab dictators like Mubarak of Egypt or the Casino Royale Sheik's, the Saudi Royal family. I am a human that cares for all humans, I condemn the killing of innocent lives whoever they may be, the thing is you don't. For the sake of both sides the occupation needs to end.
P.S.
Gaza the most densely populated place on this planet is being starved to death and is still being occupied.
Shalom, Salaam
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greeneny
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 118
๐๐ป 1
October 2007
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Banksy's Santas Ghetto Bethlehem, by greeneny on Dec 6, 2007 17:11:20 GMT 1, "Greeneny, it's interesting you chose not to counterpose the arguments put forward by Bob, perhaps because they are facts you are unable to spin your web of deceit around, you talk as if you are an expert, but I see no hard facts, all I see is falesy, and blindness from the truth."
And its interesting that Bob has chosen not to argue with many of my points as well.
first, he does not argue with the fact that the Arabs rejected the partition of 1948 giving them what they want now, and chosing war instead. He does not dispute that NONE of this ever had to happen and that had the Arabs not chosen war instead of peace as the Jews did, none of this would have happened.
Much of what Bob says has to do with early meetings of Zionists who may have said this or that but in the scheme of things is basically meaningless and now only useful for those who use it to hold out as some sort of evidence proving their arguments.
Does he argue that because something had been said in a meeting in the 1920's that it was executed exactly as the meeting's notes called for 25 or 30 years later? Does Bob remember the old cliche about Jews? For every three of them you get six opinions . . .
And Bob's post is full if misinformation and half truths. There are more then 4,000,000 refugees he says. But what he leaves out is that more then 3 million are merely descendants of the original 650,00 - 800,000 who fled MOSTLY voluntarily in the belief that they were helping the approaching 5 Arab armies who would destroy the new born Jewish State at which time these "refugees" believed they would return to divvy up the Jew's loot ... but since that didn't happen when the cease fire was called, these Arabs were all stuck outside the green line.
Ask Bob what happened to those Arabs who didn't listen to the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who was broadcasting on radio calling for all the Arabs to leave ? Those Arabs who stayed behind are now Israeli citizens and their population has increased by 9 times, they have their own free press, government representatives and although for obvious reasons things aren't what they should be, these Arabs under the law have absolute equal rights as all other Israelis. More rights then they would have in any of the surrounding Arab countries.
Now lets talk about who these so called "refugees" are. Does Bob know what the criteria was to be deemed a refugee by the UN? It was 36 months. If you lived in this territory for 36 months - not ten years, not twenty years, not hundreds of years, not a century - YOU were deemed a "refugee". So how many were only there because they came as migrants to work on Jewish owned farms a few years before? Do you know Bob? Does anyone? Go and look to see when the large immigration of Arabs happened. Funny but it corresponds to when the Jews who bought land from Arabs built large farms. Do you think one had anything to do with the other?
Now lets get to the Jewish refugees that Bob will never talk about. There were a million of those who were thrown out of Arab countries where they had been living longer then the Arabs themselves but only after all their possessions were confiscated.
Do they get a right of return? Do they get compensated?
Lets discuss why so called Palestinians refugees still even exist. Maybe Bob can tell us about how all the Arab counties met after they lost in 1948, and decided they would not allow any absorption of their Arab brethren into their own populations in order to keep it an issue. So while the million Arab Jews were absorbed into Israel, the 650,000 Arabs were not permitted to become Jordanians or Lebanese or Syrian or Egyptians. And what's more, unlike ANY OTHER REFUGEE GROUP EVER ... descendants are now considered to also be refugees. Bob doesn't seem to mention that part.
So does that mean the descendants of the million Jews are also refugees? This is merely a tactic used to overcome the hated Jews by a "demographics" bomb which was a strategy Arafat had spoken about.
Don't think for a second I can't answer Bob. I've seen this leftist claptrap for years and have debated it and argued it. The Israelis aren't perfect certainly not, but don't even begin to attempt to make the case that Israel hasn't wanted to coexist with the Arabs while saying at the same time the Arabs do want peace. They have never shown any inclination to make peace but only to be living out a "hudna" and waiting until they are strong enough to fulfill the dream of destroying the Jews and Israe.
Or would Bob like to show us all where the Arabs have made a single genuine attempt to come up with a real peace paln and NOT some ploy to have 6 million Arabs re enter Israel thus using the demographic bomb to defacto destroy her
Show us Bob where the Arabs have put down their weapons, where the Arabs have said we want to coexist with the Jewish State. Sixty years later and they won't even accept ISREAL IS a Jewish State, or am I wrong about that Bob?
So much of the so called "history" that is used to argue for their side is made up or selectively used leaving out the parts that conflict with the agenda. I've caught so many people using fake quotes as evidence the Jews have planned this or that. In plain English there's a lot of lying. Understand, there are certainly many Arabs who do want peace and who do want to coexist but truth be told they have left long ago to get away from the ski masked thug crowd. There's also the Ummah to consider. Many there cannot just arbitrarily make a decision without dealing with their Arab brethren. As much as Bob likes to think the "Palestinians" are a separate people different then the Syrians, Egyptians, Iraqis, etc etc they are not. They weren't even referred to as "Palestinians" until the Egyptian Arafat dubbed them this in the 1960's. The movement was designed to prevent the Jews from establishing a home, a country in the ME which these Arabs deem to be theirs and theirs alone. Well, too bad ... however, I am very familiar with the sentiment in Israel and the facts are very simple. When the Arabs show that they are serious, they will have an open door and not just neighbors but good neighbors.
"Greeneny, it's interesting you chose not to counterpose the arguments put forward by Bob, perhaps because they are facts you are unable to spin your web of deceit around, you talk as if you are an expert, but I see no hard facts, all I see is falesy, and blindness from the truth."
And its interesting that Bob has chosen not to argue with many of my points as well.
first, he does not argue with the fact that the Arabs rejected the partition of 1948 giving them what they want now, and chosing war instead. He does not dispute that NONE of this ever had to happen and that had the Arabs not chosen war instead of peace as the Jews did, none of this would have happened.
Much of what Bob says has to do with early meetings of Zionists who may have said this or that but in the scheme of things is basically meaningless and now only useful for those who use it to hold out as some sort of evidence proving their arguments.
Does he argue that because something had been said in a meeting in the 1920's that it was executed exactly as the meeting's notes called for 25 or 30 years later? Does Bob remember the old cliche about Jews? For every three of them you get six opinions . . .
And Bob's post is full if misinformation and half truths. There are more then 4,000,000 refugees he says. But what he leaves out is that more then 3 million are merely descendants of the original 650,00 - 800,000 who fled MOSTLY voluntarily in the belief that they were helping the approaching 5 Arab armies who would destroy the new born Jewish State at which time these "refugees" believed they would return to divvy up the Jew's loot ... but since that didn't happen when the cease fire was called, these Arabs were all stuck outside the green line.
Ask Bob what happened to those Arabs who didn't listen to the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who was broadcasting on radio calling for all the Arabs to leave ? Those Arabs who stayed behind are now Israeli citizens and their population has increased by 9 times, they have their own free press, government representatives and although for obvious reasons things aren't what they should be, these Arabs under the law have absolute equal rights as all other Israelis. More rights then they would have in any of the surrounding Arab countries.
Now lets talk about who these so called "refugees" are. Does Bob know what the criteria was to be deemed a refugee by the UN? It was 36 months. If you lived in this territory for 36 months - not ten years, not twenty years, not hundreds of years, not a century - YOU were deemed a "refugee". So how many were only there because they came as migrants to work on Jewish owned farms a few years before? Do you know Bob? Does anyone? Go and look to see when the large immigration of Arabs happened. Funny but it corresponds to when the Jews who bought land from Arabs built large farms. Do you think one had anything to do with the other?
Now lets get to the Jewish refugees that Bob will never talk about. There were a million of those who were thrown out of Arab countries where they had been living longer then the Arabs themselves but only after all their possessions were confiscated.
Do they get a right of return? Do they get compensated?
Lets discuss why so called Palestinians refugees still even exist. Maybe Bob can tell us about how all the Arab counties met after they lost in 1948, and decided they would not allow any absorption of their Arab brethren into their own populations in order to keep it an issue. So while the million Arab Jews were absorbed into Israel, the 650,000 Arabs were not permitted to become Jordanians or Lebanese or Syrian or Egyptians. And what's more, unlike ANY OTHER REFUGEE GROUP EVER ... descendants are now considered to also be refugees. Bob doesn't seem to mention that part.
So does that mean the descendants of the million Jews are also refugees? This is merely a tactic used to overcome the hated Jews by a "demographics" bomb which was a strategy Arafat had spoken about.
Don't think for a second I can't answer Bob. I've seen this leftist claptrap for years and have debated it and argued it. The Israelis aren't perfect certainly not, but don't even begin to attempt to make the case that Israel hasn't wanted to coexist with the Arabs while saying at the same time the Arabs do want peace. They have never shown any inclination to make peace but only to be living out a "hudna" and waiting until they are strong enough to fulfill the dream of destroying the Jews and Israe.
Or would Bob like to show us all where the Arabs have made a single genuine attempt to come up with a real peace paln and NOT some ploy to have 6 million Arabs re enter Israel thus using the demographic bomb to defacto destroy her
Show us Bob where the Arabs have put down their weapons, where the Arabs have said we want to coexist with the Jewish State. Sixty years later and they won't even accept ISREAL IS a Jewish State, or am I wrong about that Bob?
So much of the so called "history" that is used to argue for their side is made up or selectively used leaving out the parts that conflict with the agenda. I've caught so many people using fake quotes as evidence the Jews have planned this or that. In plain English there's a lot of lying. Understand, there are certainly many Arabs who do want peace and who do want to coexist but truth be told they have left long ago to get away from the ski masked thug crowd. There's also the Ummah to consider. Many there cannot just arbitrarily make a decision without dealing with their Arab brethren. As much as Bob likes to think the "Palestinians" are a separate people different then the Syrians, Egyptians, Iraqis, etc etc they are not. They weren't even referred to as "Palestinians" until the Egyptian Arafat dubbed them this in the 1960's. The movement was designed to prevent the Jews from establishing a home, a country in the ME which these Arabs deem to be theirs and theirs alone. Well, too bad ... however, I am very familiar with the sentiment in Israel and the facts are very simple. When the Arabs show that they are serious, they will have an open door and not just neighbors but good neighbors.
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