met
Junior Member
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June 2009
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THE MET LOTTERY, by met on Feb 28, 2021 22:55:19 GMT 1, LOL ! ! De Eden Jaaphal Sorry, that sounds really funny here. It's the Jaap Edenhal. Jaap Eden is a legendary ice skater and cyclist. Also our Dutch Sportman of the Year is named after him. (Since you love details )
Thank you. I do like details, and I'm always happy to be corrected. It's just annoying that mistake slipped through my net.
LOL ! ! De Eden Jaaphal Sorry, that sounds really funny here. It's the Jaap Edenhal. Jaap Eden is a legendary ice skater and cyclist. Also our Dutch Sportman of the Year is named after him. (Since you love details ) Thank you. I do like details, and I'm always happy to be corrected. It's just annoying that mistake slipped through my net.
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Dive Jedi
Junior Member
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October 2015
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THE MET LOTTERY, by Dive Jedi on Feb 28, 2021 23:00:59 GMT 1, No worries, met
Jaap is short for Jacob. Maybe it makes more sense now.
No worries, metJaap is short for Jacob. Maybe it makes more sense now.
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blando
New Member
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August 2020
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THE MET LOTTERY, by blando on Feb 28, 2021 23:12:27 GMT 1, Really interesting info. Thanks.
Just a couple of little things...
The picture with the old 1959 or 1962 rolling stock looks like it’s taken at Harrow and Wealdstone station which these days is a Bakerloo line and london overground station.
And the scene with the train leaving the station where the time is at 2:40 of the video looks like a bakerloo or northern line station but it’s definitely not a bakerloo line train. Looks like a jubilee or northern line train. So I’m not sure... 🤷🏻♂️
Really interesting info. Thanks.
Just a couple of little things...
The picture with the old 1959 or 1962 rolling stock looks like it’s taken at Harrow and Wealdstone station which these days is a Bakerloo line and london overground station.
And the scene with the train leaving the station where the time is at 2:40 of the video looks like a bakerloo or northern line station but it’s definitely not a bakerloo line train. Looks like a jubilee or northern line train. So I’m not sure... 🤷🏻♂️
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met
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,796
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June 2009
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THE MET LOTTERY, by met on Feb 28, 2021 23:28:03 GMT 1, Really interesting info. Thanks. Just a couple of little things... The picture with the old 1959 or 1962 rolling stock looks like it’s taken at Harrow and Wealdstone station which these days is a Bakerloo line and london overground station. And the scene with the train leaving the station where the time is at 2:40 of the video looks like a bakerloo or northern line station but it’s definitely not a bakerloo line train. Looks like a jubilee or northern line train. So I’m not sure... 🤷🏻♂️
Cheers for the comments.
Regarding the first one, I nicked the photo from a slightly quirky blog post by an artist and ex-tube driver called Jane Lee McCracken. That post may also be of interest:
picturesoflilyblog.com/2015/06/03/art-judging-or-the-mechanics-of-1959-stock-tube-trains/
Really interesting info. Thanks. Just a couple of little things... The picture with the old 1959 or 1962 rolling stock looks like it’s taken at Harrow and Wealdstone station which these days is a Bakerloo line and london overground station. And the scene with the train leaving the station where the time is at 2:40 of the video looks like a bakerloo or northern line station but it’s definitely not a bakerloo line train. Looks like a jubilee or northern line train. So I’m not sure... 🤷🏻♂️ Cheers for the comments. Regarding the first one, I nicked the photo from a slightly quirky blog post by an artist and ex-tube driver called Jane Lee McCracken. That post may also be of interest: picturesoflilyblog.com/2015/06/03/art-judging-or-the-mechanics-of-1959-stock-tube-trains/
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astarti
New Member
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November 2019
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THE MET LOTTERY, by astarti on Mar 1, 2021 0:11:21 GMT 1, stikfan — Some comments on your answers: Question 21. My recollection of the period is consistent with yours: A general atmosphere of angst, with the sky being all purple and that sort of thing. People were running everywhere, trying to run from the destruction. It genuinely felt like judgement day was upon us. So I tried my best to sound the alarm. A few colleagues did accuse me of scaremongering back then. But from my perspective, they needed to be shaken out of apathy. For their own sake, I hoped they would eventually heed my warnings. And to emphasise the point about imminent apocalypse, what I always used to say was, "Two thousand zero zero, party over. Oops, out of time."2. Many thanks. Hadn't even considered this one. A bit later, I should quickly verify the accuracy of your 1998 year reference. Never paid much attention to Tony Blair's manifesto promises. The focus for me was more on waving my arms like the singer of D:Ream whenever Things Can Only Get Better came on *. Personal research since Tuesday sadly hasn't advanced beyond practising those moves again in my kitchen. I'm also disappointed about having forgotten that Hieronymus Bosch and Cecilia Chancellor featured in the official music video *. For now, your general point about that UK ban is a good one. The journey took longer than expected, but we finally reached utopia — ridding our society of oppressive hierarchical structures like stairs, and thereby levelling the field for everyone. 3. Excellent, and well spotted. To my shame, I failed to recognise Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex in the video — despite having watched it many, many times. Let's put that down to my republican leanings and the fact I have relatively little interest in the monarchy (besides Elizabeth II, whom I've curiously grown quite fond of in recent years). It would be interesting to find out whether Edward got any overtime for his cameo appearance in Be There. Or he might simply have volunteered, for CV points. There was probably a tray of complimentary sandwiches on the film set as well. Regarding Sophie, Countess of Wessex, we seem to have polar-opposite views. Wouldn't call her "lovely" myself. Perhaps I'm overly fixated on the fake sheikh revelations from the "Sophie tapes" — recorded while she was still at her PR firm, RJH Public Relations. Did you read the transcripts, by any chance? Press attention understandably focused on Sophie's damaging indiscretions about the Royal Family and senior politicians. Less widely reported in the fallout was her husband getting fired from his job. [In other words, Sophie's loose lips sunk Edward's ship. His previous career with the Royal Marines must have been an omen.]The drama occurred in the early part of 2001. By this point, Edward had left his position as a waste management engineer at London Transport (shortly before the creation of its successor, Transport for London). He had already moved on to the service industry, working at a PizzaExpress in Woking, Surrey. In his role as cameriere, Edward was privy to sensitive and highly confidential information — including the precise dates the restaurant would release its '2 for 1 on Mains' special offers. These allowed customers to have two main courses for the price of just one main course. [As you can imagine, the deals were exceptionally popular, including with other Royals. While I don't want to be crass by spelling out the savings that could be made, suffice to say they were significant. Bear in mind as well that PizzaExpress pizzas were noticeably larger at the time: In 2001, the company's pizza diameters were standardised at 56 cm (28 cm radius) — compared to today's diameter of 14.5 cm (7.25 cm radius).
Edward's second-eldest niece once tried to take advantage of such an offer during a birthday party she attended at the venue. Her friend was paying full price, and Princess Beatrice of York wanted her own pizza free of charge. This was on a Saturday, however. To his credit, and despite the social awkwardness, Edward's integrity came to the fore. He made it perfectly clear to Beatrice that the special offers were only valid from Sunday to Thursday.]Coming back to Sophie, what she strongly hinted to the undercover Mazher Mahmood in 2001 is that clients of RJH Public Relations received advance notice on the release dates of the '2 for 1 on Mains' deals at PizzaExpress in Woking. Merely alluding to the possibility of illicit inducements was a vulgar attempt by Sophie to drum up new business. And this was all caught on tape. When the transcripts were eventually released, PizzaExpress felt it had no option but to immediately terminate her husband's employment on the grounds of gross misconduct. Edward could have sued for wrongful dismissal. And he probably would have won, since there was never any evidence of misconduct by him. But he obviously wasn't keen on the spotlight that accompanies high-profile court cases. In any event, it was around this time (circa April 2001) that Edward secured a new position at Argos in Guildford. He was able to do so with the help of a letter of recommendation by Sarah, Duchess of York. Sarah is often mocked, but her magnanimity on this occasion really impressed me. Despite not having been invited to the wedding of Edward and Sophie in the summer of 1999, she clearly retained no grudge about this very public snub. Good on her, I say. Please accept my apologies for the delay in replying to this marvellous post. I had some how missed it, only finding it now after enjoying the extremely detailed set of answers that you've provided to your questions. [For the benefit of the tape, allow me to state that in the current climate of brevity and TL/DR summarisation, there is at least one person out there who is thrilled by this level of detail. Just fabulous.] While I may not agree with the model answers that you've provided, reading between the lines I've noticed that you're hinting that they are simply red herrings, and that the answers that I've provided were indeed what you were looking for. I'm glad I was able to please you. As culinary genius, philanthropist and philosopher Gino D'Acampo once said " Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth" (often incorrectly attributed to Buddha, although I am fairly sure that D'Acampo said it first). As for your reply to my message - the level of detail is astonishing, particularly in relation to the Earl and Countess of Wessex, and I'm extremely grateful for the information. This will help me fill in some of the gaps in my Edward & Sophie scrapbook, the cause of some long-held anxiety. Can a man ever truly find happiness with gaps in one of his Royal scrapbooks? I don't think so. When I read your message, I must confess to initially feeling a heightened sense of rage. How dare you talk about Sophie like that?, I seethed, as I threw my laptop across the room in absolute disgust before stamping on it repeatedly shouting NO NO NO NO. However, as I silently swept up the shards of plastic and glass it occurred to me that perhaps there was a grain of truth in your allegations, and that I should investigate things a little deeper for myself. I'm afraid to say that after some significant research, and a great deal of discussion on my various WhatsApp groups, everything that you posted seems to be based on fact. This is a Road to Damascus moment for me, and while upsetting and inconvenient it is best that I know the truth. I don't know how things will pan out in the long term, but right now I have some urgent decorating to do. There's little point in having a mural on my ceiling if looking at one of its main protagonists now fills me with disappointment. It'll have to go, and I won't rest until it has. Thank you again for bringing this to my attention. It hurts now, but one day I will love again.
After all this suffering this member is going through due to 'the met lottery' the least one can do is sent him/her some cookies! If no one else is willing to do so please dm me your details and I ll try to find the best cookies here in Athens and send them your way 😉
stikfan — Some comments on your answers: Question 21. My recollection of the period is consistent with yours: A general atmosphere of angst, with the sky being all purple and that sort of thing. People were running everywhere, trying to run from the destruction. It genuinely felt like judgement day was upon us. So I tried my best to sound the alarm. A few colleagues did accuse me of scaremongering back then. But from my perspective, they needed to be shaken out of apathy. For their own sake, I hoped they would eventually heed my warnings. And to emphasise the point about imminent apocalypse, what I always used to say was, "Two thousand zero zero, party over. Oops, out of time."2. Many thanks. Hadn't even considered this one. A bit later, I should quickly verify the accuracy of your 1998 year reference. Never paid much attention to Tony Blair's manifesto promises. The focus for me was more on waving my arms like the singer of D:Ream whenever Things Can Only Get Better came on *. Personal research since Tuesday sadly hasn't advanced beyond practising those moves again in my kitchen. I'm also disappointed about having forgotten that Hieronymus Bosch and Cecilia Chancellor featured in the official music video *. For now, your general point about that UK ban is a good one. The journey took longer than expected, but we finally reached utopia — ridding our society of oppressive hierarchical structures like stairs, and thereby levelling the field for everyone. 3. Excellent, and well spotted. To my shame, I failed to recognise Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex in the video — despite having watched it many, many times. Let's put that down to my republican leanings and the fact I have relatively little interest in the monarchy (besides Elizabeth II, whom I've curiously grown quite fond of in recent years). It would be interesting to find out whether Edward got any overtime for his cameo appearance in Be There. Or he might simply have volunteered, for CV points. There was probably a tray of complimentary sandwiches on the film set as well. Regarding Sophie, Countess of Wessex, we seem to have polar-opposite views. Wouldn't call her "lovely" myself. Perhaps I'm overly fixated on the fake sheikh revelations from the "Sophie tapes" — recorded while she was still at her PR firm, RJH Public Relations. Did you read the transcripts, by any chance? Press attention understandably focused on Sophie's damaging indiscretions about the Royal Family and senior politicians. Less widely reported in the fallout was her husband getting fired from his job. [In other words, Sophie's loose lips sunk Edward's ship. His previous career with the Royal Marines must have been an omen.]The drama occurred in the early part of 2001. By this point, Edward had left his position as a waste management engineer at London Transport (shortly before the creation of its successor, Transport for London). He had already moved on to the service industry, working at a PizzaExpress in Woking, Surrey. In his role as cameriere, Edward was privy to sensitive and highly confidential information — including the precise dates the restaurant would release its '2 for 1 on Mains' special offers. These allowed customers to have two main courses for the price of just one main course. [As you can imagine, the deals were exceptionally popular, including with other Royals. While I don't want to be crass by spelling out the savings that could be made, suffice to say they were significant. Bear in mind as well that PizzaExpress pizzas were noticeably larger at the time: In 2001, the company's pizza diameters were standardised at 56 cm (28 cm radius) — compared to today's diameter of 14.5 cm (7.25 cm radius).
Edward's second-eldest niece once tried to take advantage of such an offer during a birthday party she attended at the venue. Her friend was paying full price, and Princess Beatrice of York wanted her own pizza free of charge. This was on a Saturday, however. To his credit, and despite the social awkwardness, Edward's integrity came to the fore. He made it perfectly clear to Beatrice that the special offers were only valid from Sunday to Thursday.]Coming back to Sophie, what she strongly hinted to the undercover Mazher Mahmood in 2001 is that clients of RJH Public Relations received advance notice on the release dates of the '2 for 1 on Mains' deals at PizzaExpress in Woking. Merely alluding to the possibility of illicit inducements was a vulgar attempt by Sophie to drum up new business. And this was all caught on tape. When the transcripts were eventually released, PizzaExpress felt it had no option but to immediately terminate her husband's employment on the grounds of gross misconduct. Edward could have sued for wrongful dismissal. And he probably would have won, since there was never any evidence of misconduct by him. But he obviously wasn't keen on the spotlight that accompanies high-profile court cases. In any event, it was around this time (circa April 2001) that Edward secured a new position at Argos in Guildford. He was able to do so with the help of a letter of recommendation by Sarah, Duchess of York. Sarah is often mocked, but her magnanimity on this occasion really impressed me. Despite not having been invited to the wedding of Edward and Sophie in the summer of 1999, she clearly retained no grudge about this very public snub. Good on her, I say. Please accept my apologies for the delay in replying to this marvellous post. I had some how missed it, only finding it now after enjoying the extremely detailed set of answers that you've provided to your questions. [For the benefit of the tape, allow me to state that in the current climate of brevity and TL/DR summarisation, there is at least one person out there who is thrilled by this level of detail. Just fabulous.] While I may not agree with the model answers that you've provided, reading between the lines I've noticed that you're hinting that they are simply red herrings, and that the answers that I've provided were indeed what you were looking for. I'm glad I was able to please you. As culinary genius, philanthropist and philosopher Gino D'Acampo once said " Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth" (often incorrectly attributed to Buddha, although I am fairly sure that D'Acampo said it first). As for your reply to my message - the level of detail is astonishing, particularly in relation to the Earl and Countess of Wessex, and I'm extremely grateful for the information. This will help me fill in some of the gaps in my Edward & Sophie scrapbook, the cause of some long-held anxiety. Can a man ever truly find happiness with gaps in one of his Royal scrapbooks? I don't think so. When I read your message, I must confess to initially feeling a heightened sense of rage. How dare you talk about Sophie like that?, I seethed, as I threw my laptop across the room in absolute disgust before stamping on it repeatedly shouting NO NO NO NO. However, as I silently swept up the shards of plastic and glass it occurred to me that perhaps there was a grain of truth in your allegations, and that I should investigate things a little deeper for myself. I'm afraid to say that after some significant research, and a great deal of discussion on my various WhatsApp groups, everything that you posted seems to be based on fact. This is a Road to Damascus moment for me, and while upsetting and inconvenient it is best that I know the truth. I don't know how things will pan out in the long term, but right now I have some urgent decorating to do. There's little point in having a mural on my ceiling if looking at one of its main protagonists now fills me with disappointment. It'll have to go, and I won't rest until it has. Thank you again for bringing this to my attention. It hurts now, but one day I will love again. After all this suffering this member is going through due to 'the met lottery' the least one can do is sent him/her some cookies! If no one else is willing to do so please dm me your details and I ll try to find the best cookies here in Athens and send them your way 😉
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met
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,796
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June 2009
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THE MET LOTTERY, by met on Mar 8, 2021 21:56:52 GMT 1, Cut-off time. A full week seems more than fair, and I need not have been concerned about unmanageable numbers of participants entering the competition. ____________________ This Stage 2 shall be exclusive to kjg, astarti and viz. It relates again to the notion of doublespeak, covered in the two videos in Part B. STAGE 2 TASKAt the start of his 1989 C-SPAN interview, William Lutz confirms what doublespeak is: Doublespeak is language designed to evade responsibility, make the unpleasant appear pleasant, the unattractive appear attractive. Basically, it's language that pretends to communicate, but really doesn't. It is language designed to mislead, while pretending not to.And when host Brian Lamb asks him whether it's done consciously, Lutz explains: Oh, yes! Very consciously. Doublespeak is not a slip of the tongue or a mistaken use of language, it's exactly the opposite. It is language used by people who are very intelligent and very sophisticated in the use of language, and know that you can do an awful lot with language.While the above offers a helpful general description, there exists a variety of specific kinds of doublespeak. They include (but aren't necessarily limited to) the four types mentioned in Lutz's book on the subject. __________ kjg, astarti and viz: Define or describe one specific type of doublespeak you feel you most need to be on your guard against when reading or listening to what others are saying. Answers may be a straight cut-and-paste from a Google search result, or phrased in your own words. They might cover a well-recognised category of doublespeak, or something different that still falls within the realm of the concept. They can be a single sentence in length, or a few paragraphs. Your choice entirely. What's important is that your answer be considered, and that you be satisfied with it. If needed, these two web pages (among countless others) can offer guidance or inspiration: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublespeaken.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublespeak_AwardThis is meant as a leisurely exercise, and one that could possibly benefit each participant. If you intend to complete the task, please do so within a fortnight, by 20:00 UK time on Thursday 11 March. Good luck.
A courtesy nudge about an approaching deadline wouldn't normally be offered to participants. We're all adults here, expected to write our own Post-it reminder notes.
However, this competition is possibly my most interesting one. And it requires engagement from multiple fronts in order to succeed — being the reason there had been five places initially reserved for Stage 2.
I'm therefore making an exception.
kjg, astarti and viz:
Should you choose to complete your task, you have until 20:00 UK time on Thursday 11 March to do so.
Cut-off time. A full week seems more than fair, and I need not have been concerned about unmanageable numbers of participants entering the competition. ____________________ This Stage 2 shall be exclusive to kjg, astarti and viz. It relates again to the notion of doublespeak, covered in the two videos in Part B. STAGE 2 TASKAt the start of his 1989 C-SPAN interview, William Lutz confirms what doublespeak is: Doublespeak is language designed to evade responsibility, make the unpleasant appear pleasant, the unattractive appear attractive. Basically, it's language that pretends to communicate, but really doesn't. It is language designed to mislead, while pretending not to.And when host Brian Lamb asks him whether it's done consciously, Lutz explains: Oh, yes! Very consciously. Doublespeak is not a slip of the tongue or a mistaken use of language, it's exactly the opposite. It is language used by people who are very intelligent and very sophisticated in the use of language, and know that you can do an awful lot with language.While the above offers a helpful general description, there exists a variety of specific kinds of doublespeak. They include (but aren't necessarily limited to) the four types mentioned in Lutz's book on the subject. __________ kjg, astarti and viz: Define or describe one specific type of doublespeak you feel you most need to be on your guard against when reading or listening to what others are saying. Answers may be a straight cut-and-paste from a Google search result, or phrased in your own words. They might cover a well-recognised category of doublespeak, or something different that still falls within the realm of the concept. They can be a single sentence in length, or a few paragraphs. Your choice entirely. What's important is that your answer be considered, and that you be satisfied with it. If needed, these two web pages (among countless others) can offer guidance or inspiration: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublespeaken.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublespeak_AwardThis is meant as a leisurely exercise, and one that could possibly benefit each participant. If you intend to complete the task, please do so within a fortnight, by 20:00 UK time on Thursday 11 March. Good luck. A courtesy nudge about an approaching deadline wouldn't normally be offered to participants. We're all adults here, expected to write our own Post-it reminder notes. However, this competition is possibly my most interesting one. And it requires engagement from multiple fronts in order to succeed — being the reason there had been five places initially reserved for Stage 2. I'm therefore making an exception. kjg, astarti and viz: Should you choose to complete your task, you have until 20:00 UK time on Thursday 11 March to do so.
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kjg
Junior Member
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December 2014
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THE MET LOTTERY, by kjg on Mar 10, 2021 14:31:38 GMT 1, Thanks met!
The kind of double speak that I am most wary of is political language. The way in which politicians are communicating almost always deserves a second and sometimes even a third look. A fine example of recent times is the wedding of The Minister of Justice and Security of The Netherlands, Ferd Grapperhaus. Ferd married his long-time girlfriend last summer.
He was photographed several times during this event while he did not keep a distance of 1,5 meters between himself and other party guests. He was even hugging some of them. Few will blame him personally for that, but the rule of keeping a distance of 1,5 meters is a rule that the Dutch cabinet prescribes for citizens. And it was prescribed quite firmly. Grapperhaus even issued fines (in the amount of 95 euro) to citizens for violations of that rule.
When the photos became public, our Prime Minister Mark Rutte stated in a newspaper article that “Grapperhaus is still believable”. Our Deputy Prime Minister Hugo de Jonge did the same and he even told the press: "Ferd Grapperhaus is very believable".
As an attentive reader you then look for some clues to humor and/or satire, because one expects given the situation that the letters "Un" must stand before the word "believable". Could this be some kind of joke? But the newssources turned out to be very credible indeed. Rutte and De Jonge actually really used the word "believable" to indicate a situation in which Grapperhaus and his policy were in fact unbelievable because of his behaviour that summerday.
Suppose both of these politicians were to do this every week. At some point it is then no longer possible to use the word ‘unbelievable’ in relation to Ferd Grapperhaus, because that indicates a situation that according to the politicians cannot (and should not) exist.
Ultimately, the public will automatically internalize that the word believable from now on is also intended to indicate situations of unbelievability. The word unbelievable thus loses its function.
To consistently maintain this kind of deception, a politician must be able to believe two things that conflict with each other: knowing that it is necessary to cover up that Grapperhaus’s behaviour makes him in fact unbelievable and at the same time think that Grapperhaus is believable. Doublespeak at its best, if you ask me. Orwell would eat his heart out :-)
Political doublespeak can also turn into satire itself. A fine example that I really like is the East German word (actually two words) ‘Antifaschistischer Schutzwall’, or “Anti-fascist protective rampart”. It is also a very nice to pronounce this one.
Antifaschistischer Schutzwall was used by the East German government as a euphemism for the East German Wall.
Suppose you don’t know anything about the history of (divided) Germany, you might think that this wall was indeed meant to keep fascists out of East Germany. In reality however this wall had the exact opposite intention: it was build to prevent East Germans to leave the country and flee into the so-called fascist West Germany, a country which wasn’t fascist at all in those days.
There are of course many more examples of political doublespeak. Next week it is election time in The Netherlands: on the 17th of March we have the chance to vote a new parliament. Doublespeak seems to multiply these days; the sheer mass of it is unbelievable. As a close and avid reader I really can’t keep up. It is very interesting though as it gives me lots of examples which I then use again to show and tell my daughter (she is 15) the ways in which people in general and politicians in particular communicate.
Thanks met! The kind of double speak that I am most wary of is political language. The way in which politicians are communicating almost always deserves a second and sometimes even a third look. A fine example of recent times is the wedding of The Minister of Justice and Security of The Netherlands, Ferd Grapperhaus. Ferd married his long-time girlfriend last summer. He was photographed several times during this event while he did not keep a distance of 1,5 meters between himself and other party guests. He was even hugging some of them. Few will blame him personally for that, but the rule of keeping a distance of 1,5 meters is a rule that the Dutch cabinet prescribes for citizens. And it was prescribed quite firmly. Grapperhaus even issued fines (in the amount of 95 euro) to citizens for violations of that rule. When the photos became public, our Prime Minister Mark Rutte stated in a newspaper article that “Grapperhaus is still believable”. Our Deputy Prime Minister Hugo de Jonge did the same and he even told the press: "Ferd Grapperhaus is very believable". As an attentive reader you then look for some clues to humor and/or satire, because one expects given the situation that the letters "Un" must stand before the word "believable". Could this be some kind of joke? But the newssources turned out to be very credible indeed. Rutte and De Jonge actually really used the word "believable" to indicate a situation in which Grapperhaus and his policy were in fact unbelievable because of his behaviour that summerday. Suppose both of these politicians were to do this every week. At some point it is then no longer possible to use the word ‘unbelievable’ in relation to Ferd Grapperhaus, because that indicates a situation that according to the politicians cannot (and should not) exist. Ultimately, the public will automatically internalize that the word believable from now on is also intended to indicate situations of unbelievability. The word unbelievable thus loses its function. To consistently maintain this kind of deception, a politician must be able to believe two things that conflict with each other: knowing that it is necessary to cover up that Grapperhaus’s behaviour makes him in fact unbelievable and at the same time think that Grapperhaus is believable. Doublespeak at its best, if you ask me. Orwell would eat his heart out :-) Political doublespeak can also turn into satire itself. A fine example that I really like is the East German word (actually two words) ‘Antifaschistischer Schutzwall’, or “Anti-fascist protective rampart”. It is also a very nice to pronounce this one. Antifaschistischer Schutzwall was used by the East German government as a euphemism for the East German Wall. Suppose you don’t know anything about the history of (divided) Germany, you might think that this wall was indeed meant to keep fascists out of East Germany. In reality however this wall had the exact opposite intention: it was build to prevent East Germans to leave the country and flee into the so-called fascist West Germany, a country which wasn’t fascist at all in those days. There are of course many more examples of political doublespeak. Next week it is election time in The Netherlands: on the 17th of March we have the chance to vote a new parliament. Doublespeak seems to multiply these days; the sheer mass of it is unbelievable. As a close and avid reader I really can’t keep up. It is very interesting though as it gives me lots of examples which I then use again to show and tell my daughter (she is 15) the ways in which people in general and politicians in particular communicate.
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Dive Jedi
Junior Member
🗨️ 6,194
👍🏻 9,453
October 2015
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THE MET LOTTERY, by Dive Jedi on Mar 10, 2021 15:06:23 GMT 1, I think the most used phrase by politicians when accused of something is :
" I do not recognize myself in this. "
Hence not denying the accusations, but basicly deflecting it.
Also often used is the counter question when asked about malpractices : " Do you really believe I would would do this ?"
A very well known example of this is an interview by a Dutch sports reporter interviewing cyclist Lance Armstrong : "Did you use performance enhancing drugs? " And Lance answered : " Do you really think with ALL these testing being doing every week in every competition that I would be able to use these drugs? Really ?? "
Reporter didn't follow through. Question not answered. Accusation not denied.
A clear example of journalists becoming fans..... and classic double speak.
I think the most used phrase by politicians when accused of something is :
" I do not recognize myself in this. "
Hence not denying the accusations, but basicly deflecting it.
Also often used is the counter question when asked about malpractices : " Do you really believe I would would do this ?"
A very well known example of this is an interview by a Dutch sports reporter interviewing cyclist Lance Armstrong : "Did you use performance enhancing drugs? " And Lance answered : " Do you really think with ALL these testing being doing every week in every competition that I would be able to use these drugs? Really ?? "
Reporter didn't follow through. Question not answered. Accusation not denied.
A clear example of journalists becoming fans..... and classic double speak.
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viz
New Member
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👍🏻 225
September 2017
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THE MET LOTTERY, by viz on Mar 10, 2021 15:20:35 GMT 1, Hey met
unfortunately the lack of time and the even greater lack of knowledge of the english language do not allow me to cover the topic as much and as clearly as I'd wished. I hope this is at least "understandable"...
Let's start listing the four types of doublespeak identified by Lutz:
euphemism: an indirect word or phrase that people often use to refer to something embarrassing or unpleasant, sometimes to make it seem more acceptable than it really is gobbledygook: complicated language that is difficult to understand, especially when used in official documents inflated language: puffed-up, important-sounding words used to give commonplace things and events an elevated, glowing appearance jargon: words or expressions that are used by a particular profession or group of people, and are difficult for others to understand
Although in different contexts all of them can be used to abuse, mislead and exclude people, that is to exercise some sort of power, inflated language is in my opinion the kind of doublespeak to be the most on guard against nowadays.
In the last thirty years, mainly due to the introduction of new media, communication is undergone a complete revolution making it quicker and thus necessarily shorter.
Advertising, which in the western advanced capitalistic world benefited most of any other field in the availability of resources to study and exploit these new communication systems, can be considered as a sort of avantgarde in the communication development. In fact, if we consider the artists to be the ones capable of understanding and express the essence of their time and, in some cases, even the essence of the times to come, it's enlightening that McLuhan considered "Advertising the greatest art form of the 20th century", moreover many great artists made more and more use of form of expressions taken from advertising (Barbara Krueger being just the tip of the iceberg).
Also in politics it's increasingly seldom to find someone giving a long elaborated speech (which was very common just 20/30 years ago and where gobbledygook was used very extensively), whereas tweets, FB and IG posts (even memes!) are now the normal way of delivering the political message and sometimes even official communications, that is in forms very similar to the ones in use by advertising.
So taking advertising as the reference of most kind of modern communications -and also considering consumer is the main role of most people in western societies, which makes advertising the most common form of communication delivered to the people-, I think we have to be especially aware of the kind of doublespeak advertising makes use of, which I believe is "inflated language". Actually advertising makes also use of euphemism and jargon but in my opinion to a much lesser extent.
Anyway, although as said we must be aware of the way language is used, images are actually by far the most common form of communication today and their hidden message is much more difficult to "decode". We are flooded by images all of the time in all aspects of our lives. Even newspapers have completely changed their format in the latest two decades(to an even greater extent their online versions), where words are often used just to give confirmation of what is shown by images. So, in some way, images are the real new doublespeak we must be more on guard against as they are no longer an extension of the words but are now the "verb"
About this I found very interesting the work "All I Remember" by italian artist Elisabetta Benassi, where the back of famous photographs taken from the archives of the most important newspapers in world are shown; here she gave words again a the central role even if images had taken the show (here at half price).
As a final note, although the word (doublespeak) is mainly given a negative connotation, I think it's important to remember it's nothing else that a sophisticated use of language, which is the first and most important human tool.
In the same way as power and commerce use them to reach their aims, trying to keep the status quo and maximize profits, people can "fight" back by unmasking and "decoding" these practices and opposing to the power of the mis-used words the power of knowledge and well used words (modern media give people much more opportunities to make their voice heard nowadays than in the past).
...and, anyway, in the worst case, such "tool" can be used to make life more pleasant, so for instance...
inflated language can be used to make events and conversation much more interesting:
gobbledygook (although "supercazzola" is something slightly different, I would consider it more as a "reversed-gobbledygook") can be a very funny and witty way of making jokes (and fight back authority):
(*)
and jargon is very common in subcultures and children games
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verlan
(*) this is very very very famous italian movie, but I'm afraid it can't be fully appreciated by non-italian speakers. Most of the words used in the "supercazzola" don't make any sense and they're often used to mock authority.
Hey metunfortunately the lack of time and the even greater lack of knowledge of the english language do not allow me to cover the topic as much and as clearly as I'd wished. I hope this is at least "understandable"... Let's start listing the four types of doublespeak identified by Lutz: euphemism: an indirect word or phrase that people often use to refer to something embarrassing or unpleasant, sometimes to make it seem more acceptable than it really is gobbledygook: complicated language that is difficult to understand, especially when used in official documents inflated language: puffed-up, important-sounding words used to give commonplace things and events an elevated, glowing appearance jargon: words or expressions that are used by a particular profession or group of people, and are difficult for others to understand Although in different contexts all of them can be used to abuse, mislead and exclude people, that is to exercise some sort of power, inflated language is in my opinion the kind of doublespeak to be the most on guard against nowadays. In the last thirty years, mainly due to the introduction of new media, communication is undergone a complete revolution making it quicker and thus necessarily shorter. Advertising, which in the western advanced capitalistic world benefited most of any other field in the availability of resources to study and exploit these new communication systems, can be considered as a sort of avantgarde in the communication development. In fact, if we consider the artists to be the ones capable of understanding and express the essence of their time and, in some cases, even the essence of the times to come, it's enlightening that McLuhan considered "Advertising the greatest art form of the 20th century", moreover many great artists made more and more use of form of expressions taken from advertising (Barbara Krueger being just the tip of the iceberg). Also in politics it's increasingly seldom to find someone giving a long elaborated speech (which was very common just 20/30 years ago and where gobbledygook was used very extensively), whereas tweets, FB and IG posts (even memes!) are now the normal way of delivering the political message and sometimes even official communications, that is in forms very similar to the ones in use by advertising. So taking advertising as the reference of most kind of modern communications -and also considering consumer is the main role of most people in western societies, which makes advertising the most common form of communication delivered to the people-, I think we have to be especially aware of the kind of doublespeak advertising makes use of, which I believe is "inflated language". Actually advertising makes also use of euphemism and jargon but in my opinion to a much lesser extent. Anyway, although as said we must be aware of the way language is used, images are actually by far the most common form of communication today and their hidden message is much more difficult to "decode". We are flooded by images all of the time in all aspects of our lives. Even newspapers have completely changed their format in the latest two decades(to an even greater extent their online versions), where words are often used just to give confirmation of what is shown by images. So, in some way, images are the real new doublespeak we must be more on guard against as they are no longer an extension of the words but are now the "verb" About this I found very interesting the work "All I Remember" by italian artist Elisabetta Benassi, where the back of famous photographs taken from the archives of the most important newspapers in world are shown; here she gave words again a the central role even if images had taken the show ( here at half price). As a final note, although the word (doublespeak) is mainly given a negative connotation, I think it's important to remember it's nothing else that a sophisticated use of language, which is the first and most important human tool. In the same way as power and commerce use them to reach their aims, trying to keep the status quo and maximize profits, people can "fight" back by unmasking and "decoding" these practices and opposing to the power of the mis-used words the power of knowledge and well used words (modern media give people much more opportunities to make their voice heard nowadays than in the past). ...and, anyway, in the worst case, such "tool" can be used to make life more pleasant, so for instance... inflated language can be used to make events and conversation much more interesting: gobbledygook (although "supercazzola" is something slightly different, I would consider it more as a "reversed-gobbledygook") can be a very funny and witty way of making jokes (and fight back authority): (*) and jargon is very common in subcultures and children games en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verlan(*) this is very very very famous italian movie, but I'm afraid it can't be fully appreciated by non-italian speakers. Most of the words used in the "supercazzola" don't make any sense and they're often used to mock authority.
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astarti
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THE MET LOTTERY, by astarti on Mar 11, 2021 12:35:58 GMT 1, What is doublespeak
“Doublespeak is the product of clear thinking and is carefully designed and constructed to appear to communicate when in fact it doesn't. It is language designed to distort reality and corrupt thought”. Lutz provides several defining attributes of doublespeak: 1. It misleads 2. distorts reality 3. pretends to communicate 4. makes the bad seem good 5. avoids or shifts responsibility 6. makes the negative appear positive 7. creates a false verbal map of the world 8. limits, conceals, corrupts, and prevents thought 9. makes the unpleasant appear attractive or tolerable 10. creates incongruity between reality and what is said or not said 4 main types of doublespeak:
1. Euphemism: it is designed to mislead and cover up the unpleasant and alters our perception of reality. 2. Jargon: often makes the simple the simple appear complex, the ordinary profound, the obvious insightful. 3. Gobbledygook or bureaucratese: is in place when long sophisticated words are used in order to confuse the audience and conceal the real issue of discourse. 4. Inflated language: which is a form of doublespeak designed to make the ordinary seems extraordinary. I would like to elaborate on the first type of doublespeak mentioned above -euphemism- which I realized I have come across very often in political language. It is manipulative, it attempts to distort reality, is misleading and it’s aim is to control the narrative and obscure or conceal the real issues at stake. In the end of this note I will also present a different instance of doublespeak. Although it does not fit in the aforementioned 4 main types, I yet believe that the main definition of doublespeak could include this example as well and could be treated, thus, as a form of doublespeak. Euphemism “Euphemism derives from the Greek word euphēmos, which means "auspicious" or "sounding good." The first part of "euphēmos" is the Greek prefix eu-, meaning "well." The second part is "phēmē," a Greek word for "speech" that is itself a derivative of the verb phanai, meaning "to speak."” www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/euphemismAccording to W. Lutz euphemism in doublespeak is described as “an inoffensive or positive word or phrase used to avoid a harsh, unpleasant, or distasteful reality”. It is extensively used in political language all over the world. I would like to present a couple of examples of euphemism which took place recently here in Greece and were the first thing that came to mind when Met introduced us this notion. Probably some of you are aware of the economic crise that took place in Greece for roughly the past decade. In 2015 we had elections and a coalition between two parties, a left wing and a far right party, was formed. Once this new, at the time, government realized that their promises was not actually up to them to reinforce but had to be the result of an agreement between them and our creditors, their main goal was to distort reality through the use of language: ‘Troika’ (the consortium of EC, ECB, and IMF that provided a bailout and in return asked for financial measures) was baptized as ‘Institutions’: a neutral word to Greek public however in reality one and the same; the consortium of our creditors. ‘Financial measures’ were referred to as ‘reforms’ and the ‘retreat to a pre existing agreement’ as a ‘mutually beneficial agreement’. Final example: I have come across a kind of distortion of language which in my humble and uneducated opinion on the matter I believe also deserves a mention. It could also be addressed as a question to you mr Met : would you consider it as an example of doublespeak? Let’s take the words ‘Holocaust’, ‘Auschwitz’, ‘concentration camps’, ‘Kristallnacht'. All these words have a great weight and a straight forward description as to what they represent when we communicate with each other. We are clear about what the reference is (Holocaust) and which is it’s sense (the cognitive content associated with the present reference). However, I have spotted multiple times a misuse of the above cluster of words in an attempt of reintroducing them to define contemporary events: in comic strips, newspapers, social media… . This misappropriation of language aims to mislead, make something bad appear even worse, creates a false representation of the world, distorts reality. I find the misguided or intentionally relativisation of the aforementioned notions a type of doublespeak in reverse.
I apologize for my poor English and the clumsy writing. I didn’t divide my time efficiently and ended up doing lots of thinking, less searching and even less putting everything on paper… no cookies for me!
What is doublespeak
“Doublespeak is the product of clear thinking and is carefully designed and constructed to appear to communicate when in fact it doesn't. It is language designed to distort reality and corrupt thought”. Lutz provides several defining attributes of doublespeak: 1. It misleads 2. distorts reality 3. pretends to communicate 4. makes the bad seem good 5. avoids or shifts responsibility 6. makes the negative appear positive 7. creates a false verbal map of the world 8. limits, conceals, corrupts, and prevents thought 9. makes the unpleasant appear attractive or tolerable 10. creates incongruity between reality and what is said or not said 4 main types of doublespeak:
1. Euphemism: it is designed to mislead and cover up the unpleasant and alters our perception of reality. 2. Jargon: often makes the simple the simple appear complex, the ordinary profound, the obvious insightful. 3. Gobbledygook or bureaucratese: is in place when long sophisticated words are used in order to confuse the audience and conceal the real issue of discourse. 4. Inflated language: which is a form of doublespeak designed to make the ordinary seems extraordinary. I would like to elaborate on the first type of doublespeak mentioned above -euphemism- which I realized I have come across very often in political language. It is manipulative, it attempts to distort reality, is misleading and it’s aim is to control the narrative and obscure or conceal the real issues at stake. In the end of this note I will also present a different instance of doublespeak. Although it does not fit in the aforementioned 4 main types, I yet believe that the main definition of doublespeak could include this example as well and could be treated, thus, as a form of doublespeak. Euphemism “Euphemism derives from the Greek word euphēmos, which means "auspicious" or "sounding good." The first part of "euphēmos" is the Greek prefix eu-, meaning "well." The second part is "phēmē," a Greek word for "speech" that is itself a derivative of the verb phanai, meaning "to speak."” www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/euphemismAccording to W. Lutz euphemism in doublespeak is described as “an inoffensive or positive word or phrase used to avoid a harsh, unpleasant, or distasteful reality”. It is extensively used in political language all over the world. I would like to present a couple of examples of euphemism which took place recently here in Greece and were the first thing that came to mind when Met introduced us this notion. Probably some of you are aware of the economic crise that took place in Greece for roughly the past decade. In 2015 we had elections and a coalition between two parties, a left wing and a far right party, was formed. Once this new, at the time, government realized that their promises was not actually up to them to reinforce but had to be the result of an agreement between them and our creditors, their main goal was to distort reality through the use of language: ‘Troika’ (the consortium of EC, ECB, and IMF that provided a bailout and in return asked for financial measures) was baptized as ‘Institutions’: a neutral word to Greek public however in reality one and the same; the consortium of our creditors. ‘Financial measures’ were referred to as ‘reforms’ and the ‘retreat to a pre existing agreement’ as a ‘mutually beneficial agreement’. Final example: I have come across a kind of distortion of language which in my humble and uneducated opinion on the matter I believe also deserves a mention. It could also be addressed as a question to you mr Met : would you consider it as an example of doublespeak? Let’s take the words ‘Holocaust’, ‘Auschwitz’, ‘concentration camps’, ‘Kristallnacht'. All these words have a great weight and a straight forward description as to what they represent when we communicate with each other. We are clear about what the reference is (Holocaust) and which is it’s sense (the cognitive content associated with the present reference). However, I have spotted multiple times a misuse of the above cluster of words in an attempt of reintroducing them to define contemporary events: in comic strips, newspapers, social media… . This misappropriation of language aims to mislead, make something bad appear even worse, creates a false representation of the world, distorts reality. I find the misguided or intentionally relativisation of the aforementioned notions a type of doublespeak in reverse. I apologize for my poor English and the clumsy writing. I didn’t divide my time efficiently and ended up doing lots of thinking, less searching and even less putting everything on paper… no cookies for me!
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met
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THE MET LOTTERY, by met on Mar 11, 2021 23:36:19 GMT 1, Great job, kjg, viz and astarti.
Cookies for everyone.
Bearing in mind that the threshold for passing this task on doublespeak was low (as previously mentioned, it could have been a single cut-and-paste sentence), the level of effort made by all participants was impressive. I've only had a quick scan of the responses thus far, but will in the coming days have a proper read and watch.
A sample answer — with the kind of doublespeak I myself am especially wary of — will also be posted shortly for members to consider.
__________
Separate congratulations as well.
In completing the task, you automatically qualified for a leisurely, possibly more challenging, and rather interesting future bonus task, exclusive to the three of you. Details to be announced in about a week's time. [Sorry for the delay. I'm still thinking about the parameters needed to encourage participation.]
Everyone who completes the bonus task shall secure a bonus prize, which I hope will be attractive enough to compensate any time and energy they put in.
For now, I confirm that task relates to the two videos below (previously posted as Part C of the competition) — which I consider to be important viewing and worth revisiting. Those videos feature Jonathan Haidt and Tim Ferriss.
C.
Jonathan Haidt - The moral roots of liberals and conservatives (TED2008, Monterey, California, February 2008) - uploaded by TED-Ed
What is a 'Bigoteer'? (Pt. 2) | Tim Ferriss | LIFESTYLE | Rubin Report - uploaded by The Rubin Report on 22 December 2016
Great job, kjg, viz and astarti. Cookies for everyone. Bearing in mind that the threshold for passing this task on doublespeak was low (as previously mentioned, it could have been a single cut-and-paste sentence), the level of effort made by all participants was impressive. I've only had a quick scan of the responses thus far, but will in the coming days have a proper read and watch. A sample answer — with the kind of doublespeak I myself am especially wary of — will also be posted shortly for members to consider. __________ Separate congratulations as well. In completing the task, you automatically qualified for a leisurely, possibly more challenging, and rather interesting future bonus task, exclusive to the three of you. Details to be announced in about a week's time. [Sorry for the delay. I'm still thinking about the parameters needed to encourage participation.]Everyone who completes the bonus task shall secure a bonus prize, which I hope will be attractive enough to compensate any time and energy they put in. For now, I confirm that task relates to the two videos below (previously posted as Part C of the competition) — which I consider to be important viewing and worth revisiting. Those videos feature Jonathan Haidt and Tim Ferriss. C.Jonathan Haidt - The moral roots of liberals and conservatives (TED2008, Monterey, California, February 2008)- uploaded by TED-EdWhat is a 'Bigoteer'? (Pt. 2) | Tim Ferriss | LIFESTYLE | Rubin Report- uploaded by The Rubin Report on 22 December 2016
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viz
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THE MET LOTTERY, by viz on Mar 12, 2021 13:54:14 GMT 1, ... Anyway, although as said we must be aware of the way language is used, images are actually by far the most common form of communication today and their hidden message is much more difficult to "decode". We are flooded by images all of the time in all aspects of our lives. Even newspapers have completely changed their format in the latest two decades(to an even greater extent their online versions), where words are often used just to give confirmation of what is shown by images. So, in some way, images are the real new doublespeak we must be more on guard against as they are no longer an extension of the words but are now the "verb" ... Although actually moving somehow away from the doublespeak topic, as completion to my previous post I think this video might be of interest to some people, especially considering images are the second most discussed subject in the forum (obviously the first one being by far $$$$$$):
... Anyway, although as said we must be aware of the way language is used, images are actually by far the most common form of communication today and their hidden message is much more difficult to "decode". We are flooded by images all of the time in all aspects of our lives. Even newspapers have completely changed their format in the latest two decades(to an even greater extent their online versions), where words are often used just to give confirmation of what is shown by images. So, in some way, images are the real new doublespeak we must be more on guard against as they are no longer an extension of the words but are now the "verb" ... Although actually moving somehow away from the doublespeak topic, as completion to my previous post I think this video might be of interest to some people, especially considering images are the second most discussed subject in the forum (obviously the first one being by far $$$$$$):
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met
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THE MET LOTTERY, by met on Mar 13, 2021 5:22:43 GMT 1, Cut-off time. A full week seems more than fair, and I need not have been concerned about unmanageable numbers of participants entering the competition. ____________________ This Stage 2 shall be exclusive to kjg, astarti and viz. It relates again to the notion of doublespeak, covered in the two videos in Part B. STAGE 2 TASKAt the start of his 1989 C-SPAN interview, William Lutz confirms what doublespeak is: Doublespeak is language designed to evade responsibility, make the unpleasant appear pleasant, the unattractive appear attractive. Basically, it's language that pretends to communicate, but really doesn't. It is language designed to mislead, while pretending not to.And when host Brian Lamb asks him whether it's done consciously, Lutz explains: Oh, yes! Very consciously. Doublespeak is not a slip of the tongue or a mistaken use of language, it's exactly the opposite. It is language used by people who are very intelligent and very sophisticated in the use of language, and know that you can do an awful lot with language.While the above offers a helpful general description, there exists a variety of specific kinds of doublespeak. They include (but aren't necessarily limited to) the four types mentioned in Lutz's book on the subject. __________ kjg, astarti and viz: Define or describe one specific type of doublespeak you feel you most need to be on your guard against when reading or listening to what others are saying. Answers may be a straight cut-and-paste from a Google search result, or phrased in your own words. They might cover a well-recognised category of doublespeak, or something different that still falls within the realm of the concept. They can be a single sentence in length, or a few paragraphs. Your choice entirely. What's important is that your answer be considered, and that you be satisfied with it. If needed, these two web pages (among countless others) can offer guidance or inspiration: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublespeaken.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublespeak_AwardThis is meant as a leisurely exercise, and one that could possibly benefit each participant. If you intend to complete the task, please do so within a fortnight, by 20:00 UK time on Thursday 11 March. Good luck.
Define or describe one specific type of doublespeak you feel you most need to be on your guard against when reading or listening to what others are saying.
SAMPLE ANSWER
Below is one of the more insidious types of doublespeak I am wary of. What it emphasises is the manipulative nature of the language brought into play.
This kind of doublespeak can be broken down into two key components:
1. The doublespeaker knows their words will be received by the majority of their audience to mean something that reflects better on them (or on the situation being described) than a candid statement would. However, this understanding by the majority doesn't correspond to the truth, or at least not the whole truth.
To the extent that factual information has been volunteered by the doublespeaker, it is restricted in scope to the point of being intentionally misleading. And sometimes entirely misleading, where what's been understood by a reader or listener is at complete odds with reality.
Psychopaths aside, most liars would feel uncomfortable if they were caught out and exposed for lying. That's a risk they typically try to mitigate. So if there's a suitable alternative, capable of achieving the same ends, it will generally be embraced.
The primary benefit of doublespeak more generally is that it allows the doublespeaker to deceive. And, crucially for this particular type, without having to resort to overt, unambiguous lies.
2. Now, in many audiences, we can expect to find a small number of people who are astute and alert. Being the ones most likely to question what's been said, those individuals are potentially inconvenient.
A proper setback for the doublespeaker comes when they're challenged on their statements. Especially if that's done publicly, in a manner that might raise doubts about their integrity. But even in this worst-case scenario of being confronted, the doublespeaker has a final card up their sleeve — which is to disingenuously claim it was all a misunderstanding:
"No, of course I wasn't lying; I'd never stoop that low. My reputation for honesty is far too precious to me. The statement I made was simply misinterpreted. If you look at it again, you'll see what I actually said is different to what you mistakenly thought I said."
Indeed, the specific words used had, from the very outset, been carefully chosen with this scenario in mind. They were intended to offer the doublespeaker an "out". Hidden within them was another possible meaning — one that was deliberately far less obvious to the average reader or listener. Most importantly, even if misleading, the alternative interpretation was in itself semantically truthful (or not untruthful).
The secondary benefit of this type of doublespeak is that it offers the doublespeaker a safety net if they get cornered. They have plausible deniability, always retaining the option of playing innocent. And quite often, that's enough for some of their audience to give them the benefit of the doubt — whether out of naivety or a spirit of generosity.
____________________
The Lance Armstrong reply* when he was asked about doping, raised earlier by Dive Jedi, arguably falls within this type of doublespeak.
I've also found another example for illustration purposes, this one art-related:
CASE STUDY
Ann Freedman, former president of the Knoedler gallery*
Below are stills with subtitles from the enjoyable documentary film, Made You Look: A True Story About Fake Art (2020)*
[Although a fair amount could be mentioned here on the subject of microexpressions*, including possible duping delight*, that's a separate discussion of its own.]
"I did not knowingly sell fakes."
So — what does this statement actually mean?
1. Well, the average person might just assume it was synonymous with, "I genuinely believed the artworks I sold were authentic."
And for a doublespeaker, that is precisely what they want everyone to "hear" — an assertion of their righteousness. Confirmation they were, and always had been, dealing in good faith. Moreover, that they too were an innocent victim of a much bigger scam that fooled so many other people as well.
2. But everyone who's paying attention will appreciate the potential elasticity of those six words. Frankly, they could mean almost anything.
If, with respect to counterfeits that were sold, a doublespeaking dealer:
(i) had initial suspicions regarding their authenticity; or
(ii) had serious and credible reasons to believe they could be fake; or even
(iii) was 99% certain they were fake,
then the faintest glimmer of doubt remaining in their mind — the fact they did not 100% know the artworks to be fake, perhaps due to a 1% chance those pieces might still be real — could suffice in allowing that dealer to later claim (dishonestly, but without technically lying), "I did not knowingly sell fakes."
And that's why this kind of language is a red flag for me.
To my mind, it often seems the equivalent of, "Catch me out if you can. In the meantime, go fuck yourself."
Cut-off time. A full week seems more than fair, and I need not have been concerned about unmanageable numbers of participants entering the competition. ____________________ This Stage 2 shall be exclusive to kjg, astarti and viz. It relates again to the notion of doublespeak, covered in the two videos in Part B. STAGE 2 TASKAt the start of his 1989 C-SPAN interview, William Lutz confirms what doublespeak is: Doublespeak is language designed to evade responsibility, make the unpleasant appear pleasant, the unattractive appear attractive. Basically, it's language that pretends to communicate, but really doesn't. It is language designed to mislead, while pretending not to.And when host Brian Lamb asks him whether it's done consciously, Lutz explains: Oh, yes! Very consciously. Doublespeak is not a slip of the tongue or a mistaken use of language, it's exactly the opposite. It is language used by people who are very intelligent and very sophisticated in the use of language, and know that you can do an awful lot with language.While the above offers a helpful general description, there exists a variety of specific kinds of doublespeak. They include (but aren't necessarily limited to) the four types mentioned in Lutz's book on the subject. __________ kjg, astarti and viz: Define or describe one specific type of doublespeak you feel you most need to be on your guard against when reading or listening to what others are saying. Answers may be a straight cut-and-paste from a Google search result, or phrased in your own words. They might cover a well-recognised category of doublespeak, or something different that still falls within the realm of the concept. They can be a single sentence in length, or a few paragraphs. Your choice entirely. What's important is that your answer be considered, and that you be satisfied with it. If needed, these two web pages (among countless others) can offer guidance or inspiration: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublespeaken.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublespeak_AwardThis is meant as a leisurely exercise, and one that could possibly benefit each participant. If you intend to complete the task, please do so within a fortnight, by 20:00 UK time on Thursday 11 March. Good luck. Define or describe one specific type of doublespeak you feel you most need to be on your guard against when reading or listening to what others are saying.SAMPLE ANSWERBelow is one of the more insidious types of doublespeak I am wary of. What it emphasises is the manipulative nature of the language brought into play. This kind of doublespeak can be broken down into two key components: 1. The doublespeaker knows their words will be received by the majority of their audience to mean something that reflects better on them (or on the situation being described) than a candid statement would. However, this understanding by the majority doesn't correspond to the truth, or at least not the whole truth. To the extent that factual information has been volunteered by the doublespeaker, it is restricted in scope to the point of being intentionally misleading. And sometimes entirely misleading, where what's been understood by a reader or listener is at complete odds with reality. Psychopaths aside, most liars would feel uncomfortable if they were caught out and exposed for lying. That's a risk they typically try to mitigate. So if there's a suitable alternative, capable of achieving the same ends, it will generally be embraced. The primary benefit of doublespeak more generally is that it allows the doublespeaker to deceive. And, crucially for this particular type, without having to resort to overt, unambiguous lies. 2. Now, in many audiences, we can expect to find a small number of people who are astute and alert. Being the ones most likely to question what's been said, those individuals are potentially inconvenient. A proper setback for the doublespeaker comes when they're challenged on their statements. Especially if that's done publicly, in a manner that might raise doubts about their integrity. But even in this worst-case scenario of being confronted, the doublespeaker has a final card up their sleeve — which is to disingenuously claim it was all a misunderstanding: "No, of course I wasn't lying; I'd never stoop that low. My reputation for honesty is far too precious to me. The statement I made was simply misinterpreted. If you look at it again, you'll see what I actually said is different to what you mistakenly thought I said." Indeed, the specific words used had, from the very outset, been carefully chosen with this scenario in mind. They were intended to offer the doublespeaker an "out". Hidden within them was another possible meaning — one that was deliberately far less obvious to the average reader or listener. Most importantly, even if misleading, the alternative interpretation was in itself semantically truthful (or not untruthful). The secondary benefit of this type of doublespeak is that it offers the doublespeaker a safety net if they get cornered. They have plausible deniability, always retaining the option of playing innocent. And quite often, that's enough for some of their audience to give them the benefit of the doubt — whether out of naivety or a spirit of generosity. ____________________ The Lance Armstrong reply * when he was asked about doping, raised earlier by Dive Jedi, arguably falls within this type of doublespeak. I've also found another example for illustration purposes, this one art-related: CASE STUDYAnn Freedman, former president of the Knoedler gallery*Below are stills with subtitles from the enjoyable documentary film, Made You Look: A True Story About Fake Art (2020) *[Although a fair amount could be mentioned here on the subject of microexpressions*, including possible duping delight*, that's a separate discussion of its own.]"I did not knowingly sell fakes."So — what does this statement actually mean? 1. Well, the average person might just assume it was synonymous with, "I genuinely believed the artworks I sold were authentic."And for a doublespeaker, that is precisely what they want everyone to "hear" — an assertion of their righteousness. Confirmation they were, and always had been, dealing in good faith. Moreover, that they too were an innocent victim of a much bigger scam that fooled so many other people as well. 2. But everyone who's paying attention will appreciate the potential elasticity of those six words. Frankly, they could mean almost anything. If, with respect to counterfeits that were sold, a doublespeaking dealer: (i) had initial suspicions regarding their authenticity; or (ii) had serious and credible reasons to believe they could be fake; or even (iii) was 99% certain they were fake, then the faintest glimmer of doubt remaining in their mind — the fact they did not 100% know the artworks to be fake, perhaps due to a 1% chance those pieces might still be real — could suffice in allowing that dealer to later claim (dishonestly, but without technically lying), "I did not knowingly sell fakes."And that's why this kind of language is a red flag for me. To my mind, it often seems the equivalent of, "Catch me out if you can. In the meantime, go fuck yourself."
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THE MET LOTTERY, by That Print Guy on Mar 13, 2021 19:38:54 GMT 1, Here's one for you:
"I denounce when we talk about white racism. That's not appropriate," he said at the event, later telling the Washington Post that he was referring to Fuentes' remarks.
Paul Gosar
Here's one for you:
"I denounce when we talk about white racism. That's not appropriate," he said at the event, later telling the Washington Post that he was referring to Fuentes' remarks.
Paul Gosar
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met
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,796
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June 2009
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THE MET LOTTERY, by met on May 2, 2021 20:53:18 GMT 1, kjg Your bonus prize is a hardcover book of two of my favourite novels, Animal Farm and 1984, with an introduction by one of my favourite writers / debaters / thinkers, Christopher Hitchens. Also included as part of the package is a collectible American magazine with a stencil-image card insert, from two decades ago. [...] A little off topic, but boy do I miss Christopher Hitchens...
This thread could use a fair amount of housekeeping.
A late reply to your post seems like a good place to start.
__________
You and me both, regarding Christopher Hitchens. It's also reassuring to know that other forum members are fans of the writer, speaker, debater and polemicist.
At my home, there are more books by Hitchens than by anyone else — including Orwell and Bukowski (but possibly excluding Helmut Newton).
To his credit, I don't recall ever witnessing Hitchens engage in intellectual dishonesty. He didn't have to because he was always prepared. He did the reading beforehand, and quite often seemed to know the arguments of his debating opponents better than they did. So there was no need to resort to cheap tactics. Like strawmanning the other side's position. Or ducking awkward questions, as a slippery politician might do. On the contrary, in some of the talks I've watched, he went out of his way to ensure audience members didn't feel their challenges were sidestepped and left unanswered.
Hitchens' courage to voice unpopular opinions is worth emphasising as well.
Thankfully, that kind of courage still exists in the public realm. But it is pretty rare. Especially in the current climate of pervasive social media — when the consequences of expressing views deemed to be heterodox, or simply engaging in critical thinking and asking basic questions, have become so extreme. The far easier approach to take in such an environment is to keep your head down, cower to the illiberal (and often vindictive) rage mob, and hope somebody else is willing to take on the fight in your place.
__________
Whenever meeting anyone who's unfamiliar with Christopher Hitchens' work, I feel almost duty-bound to initiate them. [Likewise, albeit to a lesser extent, with people like Sam Harris, Steven Pinker, Jonathan Haidt and Coleman Hughes, all of whom I consider phenomenal.]
My default suggestion is that they type "Hitchslap" into the search bar of YouTube. The results are instant, they're accessible, and it's a bit like being shown the goal highlights of a football match.
But for those who display genuine interest, I always recommend they watch Hitchens in a full discussion or debate. It's the difference between listening to The Wall in its entirety, versus limiting oneself to the single, Another Brick in the Wall (Part 2).
Old footage from C-SPAN is a favourite of mine, and the clip below is among many that demonstrate Hitchens' knowledge, clarity of thinking, and willingness to place himself at risk in defence of freedom of speech. Arthur Miller had expressly refused to do the latter on this occasion. [As an aside, it pains me today whenever I hear the suggestion that the principles of free speech, free expression, and free enquiry are "right wing" issues. What that betrays is a grotesque if not criminal ignorance of history. Even contemporary history.]
The programme that follows was broadcast on 21 February 1989, one week after the Ayatollah Khomeini had issued a fatwa on Salman Rushdie.*
20 years later, Hitchens would write, "For our time and generation, the great conflict between the ironic mind and the literal mind, the experimental and the dogmatic, the tolerant and the fanatical, is the argument that was kindled by The Satanic Verses."*
Christopher Hitchens on C-SPAN - Salman Rushdie and 'The Satanic Verses' (1989) [40:06] - uploaded by machinist
Random comments:
1. At around 14:56, Hitchens refers to discussions with his wife about the potential security concerns of taking a public stand in defence of Rushdie. He mentions she comes from a country where there was once a dictatorship. His wife back then was the Greek Cypriot Human Rights lawyer, Eleni Meleagrou.
2. How fantastic are live programmes with viewer dial-ins?
Leaving aside the great response to the first caller, a brief but memorable exchange between host and guest takes place immediately following the call that starts at around 22:07:
Caller: [...]
Bruce Collins: Alright ma'am, thank you very much. [To Hitchens] Um, comment?
Christopher Hitchens: Nothing immediate, no.
__________
Although I posted the next video on two previous occasions**, it is strong enough and important enough to do so again.
On 15 November 2006, at the invitation of the University of Toronto's Hart House Debating Club, Hitchens argued in favour of the motion, Be It Resolved: Freedom of Speech Includes the Freedom to Hate.
Christopher Hitchens - Free Speech (2006) [21:07] - uploaded by hitch archive
kjg Your bonus prize is a hardcover book of two of my favourite novels, Animal Farm and 1984, with an introduction by one of my favourite writers / debaters / thinkers, Christopher Hitchens. Also included as part of the package is a collectible American magazine with a stencil-image card insert, from two decades ago. [...] A little off topic, but boy do I miss Christopher Hitchens...This thread could use a fair amount of housekeeping. A late reply to your post seems like a good place to start. __________ You and me both, regarding Christopher Hitchens. It's also reassuring to know that other forum members are fans of the writer, speaker, debater and polemicist. At my home, there are more books by Hitchens than by anyone else — including Orwell and Bukowski (but possibly excluding Helmut Newton). To his credit, I don't recall ever witnessing Hitchens engage in intellectual dishonesty. He didn't have to because he was always prepared. He did the reading beforehand, and quite often seemed to know the arguments of his debating opponents better than they did. So there was no need to resort to cheap tactics. Like strawmanning the other side's position. Or ducking awkward questions, as a slippery politician might do. On the contrary, in some of the talks I've watched, he went out of his way to ensure audience members didn't feel their challenges were sidestepped and left unanswered. Hitchens' courage to voice unpopular opinions is worth emphasising as well. Thankfully, that kind of courage still exists in the public realm. But it is pretty rare. Especially in the current climate of pervasive social media — when the consequences of expressing views deemed to be heterodox, or simply engaging in critical thinking and asking basic questions, have become so extreme. The far easier approach to take in such an environment is to keep your head down, cower to the illiberal (and often vindictive) rage mob, and hope somebody else is willing to take on the fight in your place. __________ Whenever meeting anyone who's unfamiliar with Christopher Hitchens' work, I feel almost duty-bound to initiate them. [Likewise, albeit to a lesser extent, with people like Sam Harris, Steven Pinker, Jonathan Haidt and Coleman Hughes, all of whom I consider phenomenal.]My default suggestion is that they type "Hitchslap" into the search bar of You Tube. The results are instant, they're accessible, and it's a bit like being shown the goal highlights of a football match. But for those who display genuine interest, I always recommend they watch Hitchens in a full discussion or debate. It's the difference between listening to The Wall in its entirety, versus limiting oneself to the single, Another Brick in the Wall (Part 2). Old footage from C-SPAN is a favourite of mine, and the clip below is among many that demonstrate Hitchens' knowledge, clarity of thinking, and willingness to place himself at risk in defence of freedom of speech. Arthur Miller had expressly refused to do the latter on this occasion. [As an aside, it pains me today whenever I hear the suggestion that the principles of free speech, free expression, and free enquiry are "right wing" issues. What that betrays is a grotesque if not criminal ignorance of history. Even contemporary history.]The programme that follows was broadcast on 21 February 1989, one week after the Ayatollah Khomeini had issued a fatwa on Salman Rushdie. *20 years later, Hitchens would write, "For our time and generation, the great conflict between the ironic mind and the literal mind, the experimental and the dogmatic, the tolerant and the fanatical, is the argument that was kindled by The Satanic Verses."*Christopher Hitchens on C-SPAN - Salman Rushdie and 'The Satanic Verses' (1989) [40:06]- uploaded by machinistRandom comments:1. At around 14:56, Hitchens refers to discussions with his wife about the potential security concerns of taking a public stand in defence of Rushdie. He mentions she comes from a country where there was once a dictatorship. His wife back then was the Greek Cypriot Human Rights lawyer, Eleni Meleagrou. 2. How fantastic are live programmes with viewer dial-ins? Leaving aside the great response to the first caller, a brief but memorable exchange between host and guest takes place immediately following the call that starts at around 22:07: Caller: [...] Bruce Collins: Alright ma'am, thank you very much. [To Hitchens] Um, comment?Christopher Hitchens: Nothing immediate, no.__________ Although I posted the next video on two previous occasions **, it is strong enough and important enough to do so again. On 15 November 2006, at the invitation of the University of Toronto's Hart House Debating Club, Hitchens argued in favour of the motion, Be It Resolved: Freedom of Speech Includes the Freedom to Hate.Christopher Hitchens - Free Speech (2006) [21:07]- uploaded by hitch archive
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THE MET LOTTERY, by Coach on May 2, 2021 21:56:35 GMT 1, A little off topic, but boy do I miss Christopher Hitchens... This thread could use a fair amount of housekeeping. A late reply to your post seems like a good place to start. __________ You and me both, regarding Christopher Hitchens. It's also reassuring to know that other forum members are fans of the writer, speaker, debater and polemicist. At my home, there are more books by Hitchens than by anyone else — including Orwell and Bukowski (but possibly excluding Helmut Newton). To his credit, I don't recall ever witnessing Hitchens engage in intellectual dishonesty. He didn't have to because he was always prepared. He did the reading beforehand, and quite often seemed to know the arguments of his debating opponents better than they did. So there was no need to resort to cheap tactics. Like strawmanning the other side's position. Or ducking awkward questions, as a slippery politician might do. On the contrary, in some of the talks I've watched, he went out of his way to ensure audience members didn't feel their challenges were sidestepped and left unanswered. Hitchens' courage to voice unpopular opinions is worth emphasising as well. Thankfully, that kind of courage still exists in the public realm. But it is pretty rare. Especially in the current climate of pervasive social media — when the consequences of expressing views deemed to be heterodox, or simply engaging in critical thinking and asking basic questions, have become so extreme. The far easier approach to take in such an environment is to keep your head down, cower to the illiberal (and often vindictive) rage mob, and hope somebody else is willing to take on the fight in your place. __________ Whenever meeting anyone who's unfamiliar with Christopher Hitchens' work, I feel almost duty-bound to initiate them. [Likewise, albeit to a lesser extent, with people like Sam Harris, Steven Pinker, Jonathan Haidt and Coleman Hughes, all of whom I consider phenomenal.]My default suggestion is that they type "Hitchslap" into the search bar of You Tube. The results are instant, they're accessible, and it's a bit like being shown the goal highlights of a football match. But for those who display genuine interest, I always recommend they watch Hitchens in a full discussion or debate. It's the difference between listening to The Wall in its entirety, versus limiting oneself to the single, Another Brick in the Wall (Part 2). Old footage from C-SPAN is a favourite of mine, and the clip below is among many that demonstrate Hitchens' knowledge, clarity of thinking, and willingness to place himself at risk in defence of freedom of speech. Arthur Miller had expressly refused to do the latter on this occasion. [As an aside, it pains me today whenever I hear the suggestion that the principles of free speech, free expression, and free enquiry are "right wing" issues. What that betrays is a grotesque if not criminal ignorance of history. Even contemporary history.]The programme that follows was broadcast on 21 February 1989, one week after the Ayatollah Khomeini had issued a fatwa on Salman Rushdie. *20 years later, Hitchens would write, "For our time and generation, the great conflict between the ironic mind and the literal mind, the experimental and the dogmatic, the tolerant and the fanatical, is the argument that was kindled by The Satanic Verses."*Christopher Hitchens on C-SPAN - Salman Rushdie and 'The Satanic Verses' (1989) [40:06]- uploaded by machinistRandom comments:1. At around 14:56, Hitchens refers to discussions with his wife about the potential security concerns of taking a public stand in defence of Rushdie. He mentions she comes from a country where there was once a dictatorship. His wife back then was the Greek Cypriot Human Rights lawyer, Eleni Meleagrou. 2. How fantastic are live programmes with viewer dial-ins? Leaving aside the great response to the first caller, a brief but memorable exchange between host and guest takes place immediately following the call that starts at around 22:07: Caller: [...] Bruce Collins: Alright ma'am, thank you very much. [To Hitchens] Um, comment?Christopher Hitchens: Nothing immediate, no.__________ Although I posted the next video on two previous occasions **, it is strong enough and important enough to do so again. On 15 November 2006, at the invitation of the University of Toronto's Hart House Debating Club, Hitchens argued in favour of the motion, Be It Resolved: Freedom of Speech Includes the Freedom to Hate.Christopher Hitchens - Free Speech (2006) [21:07]- uploaded by hitch archive
I also miss the Hitch very much. I’m going to settle myself with a bottle of wine and listen to the video you have shared, though I’ve heard him talk about Rushdie a lot.
This remains an engaging discussion about the Catholic Church. I’ve shared this before.
But really one should watch the whole debate. There are four speakers. Stephen Fry is characteristically very good. Speaking in favour of the church is an archbishop whose name now escapes me and the awful Ann Widecombe.
A little off topic, but boy do I miss Christopher Hitchens... This thread could use a fair amount of housekeeping. A late reply to your post seems like a good place to start. __________ You and me both, regarding Christopher Hitchens. It's also reassuring to know that other forum members are fans of the writer, speaker, debater and polemicist. At my home, there are more books by Hitchens than by anyone else — including Orwell and Bukowski (but possibly excluding Helmut Newton). To his credit, I don't recall ever witnessing Hitchens engage in intellectual dishonesty. He didn't have to because he was always prepared. He did the reading beforehand, and quite often seemed to know the arguments of his debating opponents better than they did. So there was no need to resort to cheap tactics. Like strawmanning the other side's position. Or ducking awkward questions, as a slippery politician might do. On the contrary, in some of the talks I've watched, he went out of his way to ensure audience members didn't feel their challenges were sidestepped and left unanswered. Hitchens' courage to voice unpopular opinions is worth emphasising as well. Thankfully, that kind of courage still exists in the public realm. But it is pretty rare. Especially in the current climate of pervasive social media — when the consequences of expressing views deemed to be heterodox, or simply engaging in critical thinking and asking basic questions, have become so extreme. The far easier approach to take in such an environment is to keep your head down, cower to the illiberal (and often vindictive) rage mob, and hope somebody else is willing to take on the fight in your place. __________ Whenever meeting anyone who's unfamiliar with Christopher Hitchens' work, I feel almost duty-bound to initiate them. [Likewise, albeit to a lesser extent, with people like Sam Harris, Steven Pinker, Jonathan Haidt and Coleman Hughes, all of whom I consider phenomenal.]My default suggestion is that they type "Hitchslap" into the search bar of You Tube. The results are instant, they're accessible, and it's a bit like being shown the goal highlights of a football match. But for those who display genuine interest, I always recommend they watch Hitchens in a full discussion or debate. It's the difference between listening to The Wall in its entirety, versus limiting oneself to the single, Another Brick in the Wall (Part 2). Old footage from C-SPAN is a favourite of mine, and the clip below is among many that demonstrate Hitchens' knowledge, clarity of thinking, and willingness to place himself at risk in defence of freedom of speech. Arthur Miller had expressly refused to do the latter on this occasion. [As an aside, it pains me today whenever I hear the suggestion that the principles of free speech, free expression, and free enquiry are "right wing" issues. What that betrays is a grotesque if not criminal ignorance of history. Even contemporary history.]The programme that follows was broadcast on 21 February 1989, one week after the Ayatollah Khomeini had issued a fatwa on Salman Rushdie. *20 years later, Hitchens would write, "For our time and generation, the great conflict between the ironic mind and the literal mind, the experimental and the dogmatic, the tolerant and the fanatical, is the argument that was kindled by The Satanic Verses."*Christopher Hitchens on C-SPAN - Salman Rushdie and 'The Satanic Verses' (1989) [40:06]- uploaded by machinistRandom comments:1. At around 14:56, Hitchens refers to discussions with his wife about the potential security concerns of taking a public stand in defence of Rushdie. He mentions she comes from a country where there was once a dictatorship. His wife back then was the Greek Cypriot Human Rights lawyer, Eleni Meleagrou. 2. How fantastic are live programmes with viewer dial-ins? Leaving aside the great response to the first caller, a brief but memorable exchange between host and guest takes place immediately following the call that starts at around 22:07: Caller: [...] Bruce Collins: Alright ma'am, thank you very much. [To Hitchens] Um, comment?Christopher Hitchens: Nothing immediate, no.__________ Although I posted the next video on two previous occasions **, it is strong enough and important enough to do so again. On 15 November 2006, at the invitation of the University of Toronto's Hart House Debating Club, Hitchens argued in favour of the motion, Be It Resolved: Freedom of Speech Includes the Freedom to Hate.Christopher Hitchens - Free Speech (2006) [21:07]- uploaded by hitch archiveI also miss the Hitch very much. I’m going to settle myself with a bottle of wine and listen to the video you have shared, though I’ve heard him talk about Rushdie a lot. This remains an engaging discussion about the Catholic Church. I’ve shared this before. But really one should watch the whole debate. There are four speakers. Stephen Fry is characteristically very good. Speaking in favour of the church is an archbishop whose name now escapes me and the awful Ann Widecombe.
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jstjst
New Member
🗨️ 81
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May 2006
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THE MET LOTTERY, by jstjst on May 2, 2021 22:02:04 GMT 1, A little off topic, but boy do I miss Christopher Hitchens... This thread could use a fair amount of housekeeping. A late reply to your post seems like a good place to start. __________ You and me both, regarding Christopher Hitchens. It's also reassuring to know that other forum members are fans of the writer, speaker, debater and polemicist. At my home, there are more books by Hitchens than by anyone else — including Orwell and Bukowski (but possibly excluding Helmut Newton). To his credit, I don't recall ever witnessing Hitchens engage in intellectual dishonesty. He didn't have to because he was always prepared. He did the reading beforehand, and quite often seemed to know the arguments of his debating opponents better than they did. So there was no need to resort to cheap tactics. Like strawmanning the other side's position. Or ducking awkward questions, as a slippery politician might do. On the contrary, in some of the talks I've watched, he went out of his way to ensure audience members didn't feel their challenges were sidestepped and left unanswered. Hitchens' courage to voice unpopular opinions is worth emphasising as well. Thankfully, that kind of courage still exists in the public realm. But it is pretty rare. Especially in the current climate of pervasive social media — when the consequences of expressing views deemed to be heterodox, or simply engaging in critical thinking and asking basic questions, have become so extreme. The far easier approach to take in such an environment is to keep your head down, cower to the illiberal (and often vindictive) rage mob, and hope somebody else is willing to take on the fight in your place. __________ Whenever meeting anyone who's unfamiliar with Christopher Hitchens' work, I feel almost duty-bound to initiate them. [Likewise, albeit to a lesser extent, with people like Sam Harris, Steven Pinker, Jonathan Haidt and Coleman Hughes, all of whom I consider phenomenal.]My default suggestion is that they type "Hitchslap" into the search bar of You Tube. The results are instant, they're accessible, and it's a bit like being shown the goal highlights of a football match. But for those who display genuine interest, I always recommend they watch Hitchens in a full discussion or debate. It's the difference between listening to The Wall in its entirety, versus limiting oneself to the single, Another Brick in the Wall (Part 2). Old footage from C-SPAN is a favourite of mine, and the clip below is among many that demonstrate Hitchens' knowledge, clarity of thinking, and willingness to place himself at risk in defence of freedom of speech. Arthur Miller had expressly refused to do the latter on this occasion. [As an aside, it pains me today whenever I hear the suggestion that the principles of free speech, free expression, and free enquiry are "right wing" issues. What that betrays is a grotesque if not criminal ignorance of history. Even contemporary history.]The programme that follows was broadcast on 21 February 1989, one week after the Ayatollah Khomeini had issued a fatwa on Salman Rushdie. *20 years later, Hitchens would write, "For our time and generation, the great conflict between the ironic mind and the literal mind, the experimental and the dogmatic, the tolerant and the fanatical, is the argument that was kindled by The Satanic Verses."*Christopher Hitchens on C-SPAN - Salman Rushdie and 'The Satanic Verses' (1989) [40:06]- uploaded by machinistRandom comments:1. At around 14:56, Hitchens refers to discussions with his wife about the potential security concerns of taking a public stand in defence of Rushdie. He mentions she comes from a country where there was once a dictatorship. His wife back then was the Greek Cypriot Human Rights lawyer, Eleni Meleagrou. 2. How fantastic are live programmes with viewer dial-ins? Leaving aside the great response to the first caller, a brief but memorable exchange between host and guest takes place immediately following the call that starts at around 22:07: Caller: [...] Bruce Collins: Alright ma'am, thank you very much. [To Hitchens] Um, comment?Christopher Hitchens: Nothing immediate, no.__________ Although I posted the next video on two previous occasions **, it is strong enough and important enough to do so again. On 15 November 2006, at the invitation of the University of Toronto's Hart House Debating Club, Hitchens argued in favour of the motion, Be It Resolved: Freedom of Speech Includes the Freedom to Hate.Christopher Hitchens - Free Speech (2006) [21:07]- uploaded by hitch archive In my humble opinion - he was good at rhetoric, enjoyed an argument, interesting to read and reflect on - but often superficial. The concept of anti-theism is nothing new and fundamentally missed the experiential aspect of religious faith, other than to dismiss it. He struggled to get beyond reason as an evidential base. Give me Singer, James, Dawkins or even Russell.
To offer an on topic reflection - Banksy’s Toxic Mary is a better ‘read’! ... perhaps that’s a motion worth debating!?
no offence intended, just a personal view on a fascinating topic!
A little off topic, but boy do I miss Christopher Hitchens... This thread could use a fair amount of housekeeping. A late reply to your post seems like a good place to start. __________ You and me both, regarding Christopher Hitchens. It's also reassuring to know that other forum members are fans of the writer, speaker, debater and polemicist. At my home, there are more books by Hitchens than by anyone else — including Orwell and Bukowski (but possibly excluding Helmut Newton). To his credit, I don't recall ever witnessing Hitchens engage in intellectual dishonesty. He didn't have to because he was always prepared. He did the reading beforehand, and quite often seemed to know the arguments of his debating opponents better than they did. So there was no need to resort to cheap tactics. Like strawmanning the other side's position. Or ducking awkward questions, as a slippery politician might do. On the contrary, in some of the talks I've watched, he went out of his way to ensure audience members didn't feel their challenges were sidestepped and left unanswered. Hitchens' courage to voice unpopular opinions is worth emphasising as well. Thankfully, that kind of courage still exists in the public realm. But it is pretty rare. Especially in the current climate of pervasive social media — when the consequences of expressing views deemed to be heterodox, or simply engaging in critical thinking and asking basic questions, have become so extreme. The far easier approach to take in such an environment is to keep your head down, cower to the illiberal (and often vindictive) rage mob, and hope somebody else is willing to take on the fight in your place. __________ Whenever meeting anyone who's unfamiliar with Christopher Hitchens' work, I feel almost duty-bound to initiate them. [Likewise, albeit to a lesser extent, with people like Sam Harris, Steven Pinker, Jonathan Haidt and Coleman Hughes, all of whom I consider phenomenal.]My default suggestion is that they type "Hitchslap" into the search bar of You Tube. The results are instant, they're accessible, and it's a bit like being shown the goal highlights of a football match. But for those who display genuine interest, I always recommend they watch Hitchens in a full discussion or debate. It's the difference between listening to The Wall in its entirety, versus limiting oneself to the single, Another Brick in the Wall (Part 2). Old footage from C-SPAN is a favourite of mine, and the clip below is among many that demonstrate Hitchens' knowledge, clarity of thinking, and willingness to place himself at risk in defence of freedom of speech. Arthur Miller had expressly refused to do the latter on this occasion. [As an aside, it pains me today whenever I hear the suggestion that the principles of free speech, free expression, and free enquiry are "right wing" issues. What that betrays is a grotesque if not criminal ignorance of history. Even contemporary history.]The programme that follows was broadcast on 21 February 1989, one week after the Ayatollah Khomeini had issued a fatwa on Salman Rushdie. *20 years later, Hitchens would write, "For our time and generation, the great conflict between the ironic mind and the literal mind, the experimental and the dogmatic, the tolerant and the fanatical, is the argument that was kindled by The Satanic Verses."*Christopher Hitchens on C-SPAN - Salman Rushdie and 'The Satanic Verses' (1989) [40:06]- uploaded by machinistRandom comments:1. At around 14:56, Hitchens refers to discussions with his wife about the potential security concerns of taking a public stand in defence of Rushdie. He mentions she comes from a country where there was once a dictatorship. His wife back then was the Greek Cypriot Human Rights lawyer, Eleni Meleagrou. 2. How fantastic are live programmes with viewer dial-ins? Leaving aside the great response to the first caller, a brief but memorable exchange between host and guest takes place immediately following the call that starts at around 22:07: Caller: [...] Bruce Collins: Alright ma'am, thank you very much. [To Hitchens] Um, comment?Christopher Hitchens: Nothing immediate, no.__________ Although I posted the next video on two previous occasions **, it is strong enough and important enough to do so again. On 15 November 2006, at the invitation of the University of Toronto's Hart House Debating Club, Hitchens argued in favour of the motion, Be It Resolved: Freedom of Speech Includes the Freedom to Hate.Christopher Hitchens - Free Speech (2006) [21:07]- uploaded by hitch archiveIn my humble opinion - he was good at rhetoric, enjoyed an argument, interesting to read and reflect on - but often superficial. The concept of anti-theism is nothing new and fundamentally missed the experiential aspect of religious faith, other than to dismiss it. He struggled to get beyond reason as an evidential base. Give me Singer, James, Dawkins or even Russell. To offer an on topic reflection - Banksy’s Toxic Mary is a better ‘read’! ... perhaps that’s a motion worth debating!? no offence intended, just a personal view on a fascinating topic!
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THE MET LOTTERY, by Coach on May 2, 2021 23:37:19 GMT 1, met I enjoyed that video thanks. Whilst taking on board your notes, one point that struck me (aside from the overriding theme of freedom of speech) was the concern expressed about chain bookshops and the limits that risks regarding suppression of certain works. I pondered what he might have thought about the situation now, where chains (never mind independent bookshops) are under threat from the monster that is amazon.
met I enjoyed that video thanks. Whilst taking on board your notes, one point that struck me (aside from the overriding theme of freedom of speech) was the concern expressed about chain bookshops and the limits that risks regarding suppression of certain works. I pondered what he might have thought about the situation now, where chains (never mind independent bookshops) are under threat from the monster that is amazon.
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met
Junior Member
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June 2009
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THE MET LOTTERY, by met on May 29, 2021 1:41:58 GMT 1, Just how extraordinary is the journey Ze Frank takes us on?
Ze Frank: Are you human? [4:34] - uploaded by TED on 18 July 2014
Just how extraordinary is the journey Ze Frank takes us on?
Ze Frank: Are you human? [4:34] - uploaded by TED on 18 July 2014
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met
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,796
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June 2009
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THE MET LOTTERY, by met on Jun 4, 2021 2:17:52 GMT 1,
Cheers for posting. I forwarded that Sad Cat Diary to a good friend and stray-cat adopter.
Cheers for posting. I forwarded that Sad Cat Diary to a good friend and stray-cat adopter.
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met
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,796
👍🏻 6,762
June 2009
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THE MET LOTTERY, by met on Jun 4, 2021 2:37:23 GMT 1,
www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-china-57314397
[BBC link with a video worth watching. It features proper heroism, given the penalty for lighting a candle is now up to five years in prison. "I am willing to pay the price for fighting for democracy."]
Lighting a candle for Tiananmen and Hong Kong freedoms
Every 4 June for the past three decades, tens of thousands of Hongkongers have gathered in a park to hold a candlelight vigil, mourning those killed in the 1989 Tiananmen crackdown in Beijing.
The incident, also known as "June Fourth", is considered highly politically sensitive in the mainland. Hong Kong has been one of the very few places in China which has allowed public commemoration - but now this tradition is under threat.
Authorities have banned the event for the second year in a row. They've cited Covid concerns - but activists fear it is much more than that.
Tonyee Chow, vice-chairperson of the vigil's organiser Hong Kong Alliance, tells the BBC why they are asking Hongkongers to light candles on 4 June.
__________
www.pri.org/stories/2021-06-03/hong-kong-lighting-candle-tiananmen-victims-now-crime
In Hong Kong, lighting a candle for Tiananmen victims is now a crime
Wearing black, or being in or around Victoria Park on the anniversary, could also land someone a one-year sentence in jail.
The World June 03, 2021 · 12:30 PM EDT By Patrick Winn
It’s much more than a candlelight vigil. In Hong Kong, commemorating victims of the Tiananmen Square massacre is a treasured act of resistance. There is no other place on Chinese soil where a mass remembrance of the tragedy is remotely possible.
But now, that right is being stripped away.
As of this year, anyone publicly lighting a candle in public in Hong Kong to recall the massacre on June 4, 1989, in Beijing — a turning point in China’s history in which a movement for greater freedoms was crushed — faces up to five years in prison.
This is just the latest endeavor by China’s Communist Party (and the Hong Kong government, obsequious to Beijing) to pick apart the coastal territory’s autonomy, a concept called “One Country, Two Systems," that is rapidly eroding.
[...]
www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-china-57314397[BBC link with a video worth watching. It features proper heroism, given the penalty for lighting a candle is now up to five years in prison. "I am willing to pay the price for fighting for democracy."] Lighting a candle for Tiananmen and Hong Kong freedoms
Every 4 June for the past three decades, tens of thousands of Hongkongers have gathered in a park to hold a candlelight vigil, mourning those killed in the 1989 Tiananmen crackdown in Beijing.
The incident, also known as "June Fourth", is considered highly politically sensitive in the mainland. Hong Kong has been one of the very few places in China which has allowed public commemoration - but now this tradition is under threat.
Authorities have banned the event for the second year in a row. They've cited Covid concerns - but activists fear it is much more than that.
Tonyee Chow, vice-chairperson of the vigil's organiser Hong Kong Alliance, tells the BBC why they are asking Hongkongers to light candles on 4 June.__________ www.pri.org/stories/2021-06-03/hong-kong-lighting-candle-tiananmen-victims-now-crimeIn Hong Kong, lighting a candle for Tiananmen victims is now a crime
Wearing black, or being in or around Victoria Park on the anniversary, could also land someone a one-year sentence in jail.
The World June 03, 2021 · 12:30 PM EDT By Patrick Winn
It’s much more than a candlelight vigil. In Hong Kong, commemorating victims of the Tiananmen Square massacre is a treasured act of resistance. There is no other place on Chinese soil where a mass remembrance of the tragedy is remotely possible.
But now, that right is being stripped away.
As of this year, anyone publicly lighting a candle in public in Hong Kong to recall the massacre on June 4, 1989, in Beijing — a turning point in China’s history in which a movement for greater freedoms was crushed — faces up to five years in prison.
This is just the latest endeavor by China’s Communist Party (and the Hong Kong government, obsequious to Beijing) to pick apart the coastal territory’s autonomy, a concept called “One Country, Two Systems," that is rapidly eroding.
[...]
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mrizzle
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,215
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January 2016
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THE MET LOTTERY, by mrizzle on Jun 4, 2021 5:55:11 GMT 1, www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-china-57314397[BBC link with a video worth watching. It features proper heroism, given the penalty for lighting a candle is now up to five years in prison. "I am willing to pay the price for fighting for democracy."]
The update which is shared at the very end is both sadly predictable and troubling.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-china-57314397[BBC link with a video worth watching. It features proper heroism, given the penalty for lighting a candle is now up to five years in prison. "I am willing to pay the price for fighting for democracy."] The update which is shared at the very end is both sadly predictable and troubling.
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met
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,796
👍🏻 6,762
June 2009
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THE MET LOTTERY, by met on Dec 16, 2021 23:23:53 GMT 1, Psychologists Nick Davis and Emma Barratt discovered that whispering was an effective trigger for 75% of the 475 subjects who took part in an experiment to investigate the nature of ASMR*; this statistic is reflected in the popularity of intentional ASMR videos that comprise someone speaking in a whispered voice.
Real Housewives ASMR: Kim Richards vs. Eileen Davidson and Lisa Rinna in Amsterdam - uploaded by T. Kyle
__________
Narcissists and #SOCIALMEDIA III - uploaded by joeybtoonz
Narcissists and #SOCIALMEDIA VI - uploaded by joeybtoonz
Best of Narcissists and #SOCIALMEDIA - uploaded by joeybtoonz
Psychologists Nick Davis and Emma Barratt discovered that whispering was an effective trigger for 75% of the 475 subjects who took part in an experiment to investigate the nature of ASMR*; this statistic is reflected in the popularity of intentional ASMR videos that comprise someone speaking in a whispered voice.Real Housewives ASMR: Kim Richards vs. Eileen Davidson and Lisa Rinna in Amsterdam- uploaded by T. Kyle__________ Narcissists and #SOCIALMEDIA III- uploaded by joeybtoonzNarcissists and #SOCIALMEDIA VI- uploaded by joeybtoonzBest of Narcissists and #SOCIALMEDIA- uploaded by joeybtoonz
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met
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,796
👍🏻 6,762
June 2009
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THE MET LOTTERY, by met on Mar 28, 2022 5:17:16 GMT 1, Competitions updates
Plenty of housekeeping is required by me on this thread, but that responsibility is being further postponed in favour of new competitions.
Among other things, like owing considered responses to half a dozen members, I still haven't initiated the bonus task following Stages 1 and 2 of Competition 39 from February–March 2021, exclusive to participants who successfully completed both stages*.
Apologies to kjg, viz and astarti for the silly ongoing delays. [It's a clutching-at-straws excuse, but some of the videos in the new competitions could be viewed as additional primers for that future bonus task.]
Prizes previously won were on each occasion promptly dispatched — with the exception of the one for god’s ultimate noise, who went radio silent after winning Competition 41 on 23 February 2021*, before providing an address for either themselves or a forward giftee.
The situation doesn't look very promising since they also appear to have deleted all of their forum posts. And given those posts were consistently well-informed, the deletions are most regrettable. It's an act that seems oddly and uncharacteristically petulant.
If members have any news about why god’s ultimate noise abandoned us so abruptly, that would be helpful. I'd like to exercise best efforts in dispatching their prize, to cross this off my list of outstanding duties.
Competitions updatesPlenty of housekeeping is required by me on this thread, but that responsibility is being further postponed in favour of new competitions. Among other things, like owing considered responses to half a dozen members, I still haven't initiated the bonus task following Stages 1 and 2 of Competition 39 from February–March 2021, exclusive to participants who successfully completed both stages *. Apologies to kjg, viz and astarti for the silly ongoing delays. [It's a clutching-at-straws excuse, but some of the videos in the new competitions could be viewed as additional primers for that future bonus task.]Prizes previously won were on each occasion promptly dispatched — with the exception of the one for god’s ultimate noise, who went radio silent after winning Competition 41 on 23 February 2021 *, before providing an address for either themselves or a forward giftee. The situation doesn't look very promising since they also appear to have deleted all of their forum posts. And given those posts were consistently well-informed, the deletions are most regrettable. It's an act that seems oddly and uncharacteristically petulant. If members have any news about why god’s ultimate noise abandoned us so abruptly, that would be helpful. I'd like to exercise best efforts in dispatching their prize, to cross this off my list of outstanding duties.
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met
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,796
👍🏻 6,762
June 2009
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THE MET LOTTERY, by met on Mar 28, 2022 5:18:01 GMT 1, Side rant about the deletion of posts
For members who are tempted to delete any of their posts, or substantive parts thereof, I would discourage them from doing so.
1. Even if unrecognised at the time they're drafted, along with their corresponding threads, individual posts may have long-lasting value to this forum.
For example:
(i) they're a source of knowledge and context that can be referred back to in the years to come (including when the subject matter is as trivial as pricing or a sales thread);
(ii) they sometimes provide valuable warnings to others about market manipulation, overpricing, scamming, counterfeiting, the identities of deceitful individuals (both private and professional), and other risks and shenanigans constantly faced by art collectors;
(iii) they can offer insights on the artists, artwork or concerns that many forum members were fixated on at a particular point in time — which may be informative, especially after hype subsides, initial interest wanes, and sheep-like focus (along with the familiar pattern of speculation) has shifted elsewhere; and
(iv) so on and so forth (fourth).
Deleting posts is unhelpful to the forum because it compromises the integrity of threads, sometimes making them incoherent. As previously mentioned*, it can result in a needless waste of an educational opportunity.
2. More broadly, removing posts can potentially corrupt our memories of forum history and the truth.
3. The act of deleting posts also does a disservice to the perceived character of the deleter. It betrays a revisionist mindset, with the relevant member seemingly trying to hide what they previously stated.
While understandable, attempting to cover their tracks by expunging everything that may be incorrect, ill-judged, embarrassing or otherwise compromising seems rather cowardly. It does little to elicit respect. Even less so when posts are removed surreptitiously, on the sly — as if to pretend they were never published in the first place.
__________
If a member has drafted any posts that:
(i) turn out to be factually inaccurate or misleading; (ii) could make them look foolish, misguided or petty; or (iii) might indicate they're prone to losing self-control,
on balance I suggest it's preferable that they retain the original posts in their entirety, and just insert a later correction or apology by way of addendum, using the forum's Edit function. And if need really be, using the Strike Through option.
__________
Despite the above reference to a "rant", this text could also be reframed as an ode, which has more positive connotations.
Let this therefore be an ode to:
(a) keeping original posts in place, so that forum threads remain comprehensive and comprehensible (rather than incomplete or disjointed); and
(b) manning up, being transparent when we make mistakes, by acknowledging and addressing them openly (rather than heeding the often pride-based, feeble temptation to cover up and delete).
Side rant about the deletion of postsFor members who are tempted to delete any of their posts, or substantive parts thereof, I would discourage them from doing so. 1. Even if unrecognised at the time they're drafted, along with their corresponding threads, individual posts may have long-lasting value to this forum. For example: (i) they're a source of knowledge and context that can be referred back to in the years to come (including when the subject matter is as trivial as pricing or a sales thread); (ii) they sometimes provide valuable warnings to others about market manipulation, overpricing, scamming, counterfeiting, the identities of deceitful individuals (both private and professional), and other risks and shenanigans constantly faced by art collectors; (iii) they can offer insights on the artists, artwork or concerns that many forum members were fixated on at a particular point in time — which may be informative, especially after hype subsides, initial interest wanes, and sheep-like focus (along with the familiar pattern of speculation) has shifted elsewhere; and (iv) so on and so forth (fourth). Deleting posts is unhelpful to the forum because it compromises the integrity of threads, sometimes making them incoherent. As previously mentioned *, it can result in a needless waste of an educational opportunity. 2. More broadly, removing posts can potentially corrupt our memories of forum history and the truth. 3. The act of deleting posts also does a disservice to the perceived character of the deleter. It betrays a revisionist mindset, with the relevant member seemingly trying to hide what they previously stated. While understandable, attempting to cover their tracks by expunging everything that may be incorrect, ill-judged, embarrassing or otherwise compromising seems rather cowardly. It does little to elicit respect. Even less so when posts are removed surreptitiously, on the sly — as if to pretend they were never published in the first place. __________ If a member has drafted any posts that: (i) turn out to be factually inaccurate or misleading; (ii) could make them look foolish, misguided or petty; or (iii) might indicate they're prone to losing self-control, on balance I suggest it's preferable that they retain the original posts in their entirety, and just insert a later correction or apology by way of addendum, using the forum's Edit function. And if need really be, using the Strike Through option. __________ Despite the above reference to a "rant", this text could also be reframed as an ode, which has more positive connotations. Let this therefore be an ode to: (a) keeping original posts in place, so that forum threads remain comprehensive and comprehensible (rather than incomplete or disjointed); and (b) manning up, being transparent when we make mistakes, by acknowledging and addressing them openly (rather than heeding the often pride-based, feeble temptation to cover up and delete).
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met
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,796
👍🏻 6,762
June 2009
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THE MET LOTTERY, by met on Mar 28, 2022 5:18:26 GMT 1, COMPETITION RULES
1. Eligibility
Members are free to participate unless disqualified under points 8.1, 8.2 and 8.3 in this post*.
Briefly:
(i) you need a minimum of 91 existing (undeleted) posts; (ii) no fraudsters or thieves; and (iii) those with more than one account here are unwelcome (bar the limited exception set out in point 8.3).
2. Answer requirements
2.1 While advance content posted may sometimes allow members to predict the competition questions that will later follow, the only answers considered will be those received after the questions have actually been posted.
2.2 Answers for any competition must be clearly expressed, in a single unedited post. Multiple attempts by a member at responding to the same competition question(s) are not permitted — including by editing their original answer, or deleting their original answer and posting a revised one.
2.3 For each question, please provide a single answer. Scattergun approaches to responding (e.g. "The answer could be [x], but it might also be [y]") will be disqualified in the interest of fairness.
2.4 If more than one answer is required, all answers provided must be correct and complete in order to win the competition.
2.5 Applicable to multiple competitions held simultaneously as part of a series (rather than one-off, single competitions):
After posting their answers for one competition, an eligible member who wishes to participate in a second competition must wait a full 24 hours before posting answers for that second competition. They must then wait a further 24 hours before posting answers for a third competition. And so on.
Exception to this 24-hour interval between the posting of answers for different competitions: If, prior to the expiry of a 24-hour period, I confirm that a member's answers for one competition are incorrect or insufficiently complete, that member is then free to immediately post answers for a different competition.
[This new rule in effect prohibits any forum member from winning two competitions in less than 24 hours. Its purpose is to encourage participation among a broader group of eligible members.]
3. Prize
Competition winners will be promptly contacted via private message for their name and shipping address, or the name and shipping address of their forward giftee.
For recipients based outside of the UK, a contact telephone number may be required by the courier company in case any issues arise during attempted delivery.
Unless otherwise specified, the prize will be cookies.
COMPETITION RULES1. EligibilityMembers are free to participate unless disqualified under points 8.1, 8.2 and 8.3 in this post *. Briefly: (i) you need a minimum of 91 existing (undeleted) posts; (ii) no fraudsters or thieves; and (iii) those with more than one account here are unwelcome (bar the limited exception set out in point 8.3). 2. Answer requirements2.1 While advance content posted may sometimes allow members to predict the competition questions that will later follow, the only answers considered will be those received after the questions have actually been posted. 2.2 Answers for any competition must be clearly expressed, in a single unedited post. Multiple attempts by a member at responding to the same competition question(s) are not permitted — including by editing their original answer, or deleting their original answer and posting a revised one. 2.3 For each question, please provide a single answer. Scattergun approaches to responding (e.g. "The answer could be [x], but it might also be [y]") will be disqualified in the interest of fairness. 2.4 If more than one answer is required, all answers provided must be correct and complete in order to win the competition. 2.5 Applicable to multiple competitions held simultaneously as part of a series (rather than one-off, single competitions): After posting their answers for one competition, an eligible member who wishes to participate in a second competition must wait a full 24 hours before posting answers for that second competition. They must then wait a further 24 hours before posting answers for a third competition. And so on. Exception to this 24-hour interval between the posting of answers for different competitions: If, prior to the expiry of a 24-hour period, I confirm that a member's answers for one competition are incorrect or insufficiently complete, that member is then free to immediately post answers for a different competition. [This new rule in effect prohibits any forum member from winning two competitions in less than 24 hours. Its purpose is to encourage participation among a broader group of eligible members.]3. PrizeCompetition winners will be promptly contacted via private message for their name and shipping address, or the name and shipping address of their forward giftee. For recipients based outside of the UK, a contact telephone number may be required by the courier company in case any issues arise during attempted delivery. Unless otherwise specified, the prize will be cookies.
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met
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,796
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June 2009
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THE MET LOTTERY, by met on Mar 28, 2022 5:19:12 GMT 1, COMPETITION 42
A.
Facts Don't Win Fights: Here’s How to Cut Through Confirmation Bias | Tali Sharot | Big Think [5:41] - uploaded by Big Think on 19 September 2017
If you want someone to see an issue rationally, you just show them the facts, right? No one can refute a fact. Well, brain imaging and psychological studies are showing that, society wide, we may be on the wrong path by holding evidence up as an Ace card. Neuroscientist Tali Sharot and her colleagues have proven that reading the same set of facts polarizes groups of people even further, because of our in-built confirmation biases—something we all fall prey to, equally. In fact, Sharot cites research from Yale University that disproves the idea that the social divisions we are experiencing right now—over climate change, gun control, or vaccines—are somehow the result of an intelligence gap: smart people are just as illogical, and what's more, they are even more skilled at skewing data to align with their beliefs. So if facts aren't the way forward, what is? There is one thing that may help us swap the moral high ground for actual progress: finding common motives. Here, Sharot explains why identifying a shared goal is better than winning a fight. Tali Sharot's newest book is out now: The Influential Mind: What the Brain Reveals about Our Power to Change Others.
B.
Why you think you're right -- even if you're wrong | Julia Galef [TEDxPSU, Pennsylvania State University, University Park, Pennsylvania, 28 February 2016.] [11:37] - uploaded by TED on 8 August 2016
Perspective is everything, especially when it comes to examining your beliefs. Are you a soldier, prone to defending your viewpoint at all costs — or a scout, spurred by curiosity? Julia Galef examines the motivations behind these two mindsets and how they shape the way we interpret information, interweaved with a compelling history lesson from 19th-century France. When your steadfast opinions are tested, Galef asks: "What do you most yearn for? Do you yearn to defend your own beliefs or do you yearn to see the world as clearly as you possibly can?"
C.
🇺🇦 Slava Ukraini. Uninterrupted video from 2017 available in 4K here*.
Vocal Coach/Opera Singer FIRST TIME REACTION & ANALYSIS Jinjer "Pisces" (Live Session) - uploaded by The Charismatic Voice (Elizabeth Zharoff) on 19 June 2020
VOCAL COACH REACTS | FIRST TIME REACTION to JINJER PISCES... I wasn't ready. - uploaded by Julia Nilon on 21 August 2020
D.
E.
Thierry Mugler, Spring/Summer 1997, Paris, 22 January 1997
Thierry Mugler Haute Couture Spring/Summer 1997 Full Show | EXCLUSIVE | HQ [Tire dress at 2:33–3:21.] - uploaded by christianzh
🇺🇦 Euromaidan, Independence Square, Kiev, 20 February 2014*
________________
At around 19:00 UK time on Thursday 31 March, I'll quote this post and add one or more questions or instructions. The first eligible member to answer correctly, wins.
COMPETITION 42A.Facts Don't Win Fights: Here’s How to Cut Through Confirmation Bias | Tali Sharot | Big Think [5:41]- uploaded by Big Think on 19 September 2017If you want someone to see an issue rationally, you just show them the facts, right? No one can refute a fact. Well, brain imaging and psychological studies are showing that, society wide, we may be on the wrong path by holding evidence up as an Ace card. Neuroscientist Tali Sharot and her colleagues have proven that reading the same set of facts polarizes groups of people even further, because of our in-built confirmation biases—something we all fall prey to, equally. In fact, Sharot cites research from Yale University that disproves the idea that the social divisions we are experiencing right now—over climate change, gun control, or vaccines—are somehow the result of an intelligence gap: smart people are just as illogical, and what's more, they are even more skilled at skewing data to align with their beliefs. So if facts aren't the way forward, what is? There is one thing that may help us swap the moral high ground for actual progress: finding common motives. Here, Sharot explains why identifying a shared goal is better than winning a fight. Tali Sharot's newest book is out now: The Influential Mind: What the Brain Reveals about Our Power to Change Others.B.Why you think you're right -- even if you're wrong | Julia Galef [TEDxPSU, Pennsylvania State University, University Park, Pennsylvania, 28 February 2016.] [11:37]- uploaded by TED on 8 August 2016Perspective is everything, especially when it comes to examining your beliefs. Are you a soldier, prone to defending your viewpoint at all costs — or a scout, spurred by curiosity? Julia Galef examines the motivations behind these two mindsets and how they shape the way we interpret information, interweaved with a compelling history lesson from 19th-century France. When your steadfast opinions are tested, Galef asks: "What do you most yearn for? Do you yearn to defend your own beliefs or do you yearn to see the world as clearly as you possibly can?"C.🇺🇦 Slava Ukraini. Uninterrupted video from 2017 available in 4K here *. Vocal Coach/Opera Singer FIRST TIME REACTION & ANALYSIS Jinjer "Pisces" (Live Session)- uploaded by The Charismatic Voice (Elizabeth Zharoff) on 19 June 2020VOCAL COACH REACTS | FIRST TIME REACTION to JINJER PISCES... I wasn't ready.- uploaded by Julia Nilon on 21 August 2020D.E.Thierry Mugler, Spring/Summer 1997, Paris, 22 January 1997 Thierry Mugler Haute Couture Spring/Summer 1997 Full Show | EXCLUSIVE | HQ [Tire dress at 2:33–3:21.]- uploaded by christianzh🇺🇦 Euromaidan, Independence Square, Kiev, 20 February 2014 *________________ At around 19:00 UK time on Thursday 31 March, I'll quote this post and add one or more questions or instructions. The first eligible member to answer correctly, wins.
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met
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,796
👍🏻 6,762
June 2009
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THE MET LOTTERY, by met on Mar 28, 2022 5:20:07 GMT 1, COMPETITION 43
A.
Coleman Hughes on How to Think with Julia Galef [S2 Ep.13] [1:32:00] - uploaded by Coleman Hughes on 6 May 2021
Welcome to another episode of Conversations with Coleman.
My guest today is Julia Galef. Julia Galef is an author and podcaster. She's the Co-founder of the Centre for Applied Rationality and the host of the podcast "Rationally Speaking".
In this episode, we discuss her new book, "The Scout Mindset: Why Some People See Things Clearly and Others Don't". We talked about the difference between intelligence and open-mindedness, the tension between pursuing the truth dispassionately and belonging to a tribe, the notion of instrumental rationality, the trade-off between building a larger audience and remaining true to one's principles, and whether affiliating with a political party makes it harder to form true beliefs.
Discover also Julia Galef's Rationally Thinking podcast — including episode 249: The case for racial colorblindness (Coleman Hughes)*.
B.
How to Disagree By Paul Graham March 2008
www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html
Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement
C.
D.
FIRST REACTION to MAXIMUM THE HORMONE (A.L.I.E.N) 👽🎸🔥 - uploaded by Chase Carneson on 4 September 2020
E.
Adam & the Ants - Kings of the Wild Frontier (1980) - uploaded by adamantdotnet
Melvins - Civilized Worm [Live at the Bonnaroo Music & Arts Festival in Manchester, Tennessee, 10 July 2010.] - uploaded by DigitalMeltd0wn
Arcade Fire - Ready To Start [Live on BBC2's Later... with Jools Holland, first aired in November 2010, Series 37, Episode 10.] - uploaded by Arcade Fire
The Kills - Future Starts Slow [Live at iConcerts, venue and date unknown, but possibly in Montreal circa 2012.] - uploaded by Lila Lila
________________
At around 19:01 UK time on Thursday 31 March, I'll quote this post and add one or more questions or instructions. The first eligible member to answer correctly, wins.
COMPETITION 43A.Coleman Hughes on How to Think with Julia Galef [S2 Ep.13] [1:32:00]- uploaded by Coleman Hughes on 6 May 2021Welcome to another episode of Conversations with Coleman.
My guest today is Julia Galef. Julia Galef is an author and podcaster. She's the Co-founder of the Centre for Applied Rationality and the host of the podcast "Rationally Speaking".
In this episode, we discuss her new book, "The Scout Mindset: Why Some People See Things Clearly and Others Don't". We talked about the difference between intelligence and open-mindedness, the tension between pursuing the truth dispassionately and belonging to a tribe, the notion of instrumental rationality, the trade-off between building a larger audience and remaining true to one's principles, and whether affiliating with a political party makes it harder to form true beliefs.Discover also Julia Galef's Rationally Thinking podcast — including episode 249: The case for racial colorblindness (Coleman Hughes)*. B.How to DisagreeBy Paul Graham March 2008www.paulgraham.com/disagree.htmlGraham's Hierarchy of DisagreementC.D.FIRST REACTION to MAXIMUM THE HORMONE (A.L.I.E.N) 👽🎸🔥 - uploaded by Chase Carneson on 4 September 2020E.Adam & the Ants - Kings of the Wild Frontier (1980)- uploaded by adamantdotnetMelvins - Civilized Worm [Live at the Bonnaroo Music & Arts Festival in Manchester, Tennessee, 10 July 2010.]- uploaded by DigitalMeltd0wnArcade Fire - Ready To Start [Live on BBC2's Later... with Jools Holland, first aired in November 2010, Series 37, Episode 10.]- uploaded by Arcade FireThe Kills - Future Starts Slow [Live at iConcerts, venue and date unknown, but possibly in Montreal circa 2012.]- uploaded by Lila Lila________________ At around 19:01 UK time on Thursday 31 March, I'll quote this post and add one or more questions or instructions. The first eligible member to answer correctly, wins.
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met
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,796
👍🏻 6,762
June 2009
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THE MET LOTTERY, by met on Mar 28, 2022 5:21:16 GMT 1, COMPETITION 44
A.
Deride and Conquer, a.k.a. Monkey Queen First exhibited at the Peace is Tough show with Jamie Reid, at The Arches, Glasgow, March 2001
Exposure magazine, Vol. 25, January 2002
London, 30 May 2002
Hamburg, Urban Discipline 2002: Graffiti Art, 26 June–2 July 2002
Pictures On Walls, 2003
B.
Coleman Hughes on How to Think with Julia Galef [S2 Ep.13] [1:32:00] - uploaded by Coleman Hughes on 6 May 2021
Welcome to another episode of Conversations with Coleman.
My guest today is Julia Galef. Julia Galef is an author and podcaster. She's the Co-founder of the Centre for Applied Rationality and the host of the podcast "Rationally Speaking".
In this episode, we discuss her new book, "The Scout Mindset: Why Some People See Things Clearly and Others Don't". We talked about the difference between intelligence and open-mindedness, the tension between pursuing the truth dispassionately and belonging to a tribe, the notion of instrumental rationality, the trade-off between building a larger audience and remaining true to one's principles, and whether affiliating with a political party makes it harder to form true beliefs.
***Video already posted in Competition 43, but repeated here for emphasis.
Discover also Julia Galef's Rationally Thinking podcast — including episode 249: The case for racial colorblindness (Coleman Hughes)*.
C.
D.
Ozzy Man Reviews: Speedboat Crash - uploaded by Ozzy Man Reviews on 4 July 2020
Ozzy Man Reviews: Humans Being Nice - uploaded by Ozzy Man Reviews on 2 June 2020
Ozzy Man Reviews: Humans Being Nice #2 - uploaded by Ozzy Man Reviews on 1 July 2020
Ozzy Man Reviews: Best of Ping Pong 2016 - uploaded by Ozzy Man Reviews on 10 February 2017
Ozzy Man Reviews: Destination F Compilation (Vol.15) - uploaded by Ozzy Man Reviews on 25 February 2021
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At around 19:02 UK time on Thursday 31 March, I'll quote this post and add one or more questions or instructions. The first eligible member to answer correctly, wins.
COMPETITION 44A.Deride and Conquer, a.k.a. Monkey QueenFirst exhibited at the Peace is Tough show with Jamie Reid, at The Arches, Glasgow, March 2001 Exposure magazine, Vol. 25, January 2002 London, 30 May 2002 Hamburg, Urban Discipline 2002: Graffiti Art, 26 June–2 July 2002 Pictures On Walls, 2003 B.Coleman Hughes on How to Think with Julia Galef [S2 Ep.13] [1:32:00]- uploaded by Coleman Hughes on 6 May 2021Welcome to another episode of Conversations with Coleman.
My guest today is Julia Galef. Julia Galef is an author and podcaster. She's the Co-founder of the Centre for Applied Rationality and the host of the podcast "Rationally Speaking".
In this episode, we discuss her new book, "The Scout Mindset: Why Some People See Things Clearly and Others Don't". We talked about the difference between intelligence and open-mindedness, the tension between pursuing the truth dispassionately and belonging to a tribe, the notion of instrumental rationality, the trade-off between building a larger audience and remaining true to one's principles, and whether affiliating with a political party makes it harder to form true beliefs.***Video already posted in Competition 43, but repeated here for emphasis. Discover also Julia Galef's Rationally Thinking podcast — including episode 249: The case for racial colorblindness (Coleman Hughes)*. C.D.Ozzy Man Reviews: Speedboat Crash- uploaded by Ozzy Man Reviews on 4 July 2020Ozzy Man Reviews: Humans Being Nice- uploaded by Ozzy Man Reviews on 2 June 2020Ozzy Man Reviews: Humans Being Nice #2- uploaded by Ozzy Man Reviews on 1 July 2020Ozzy Man Reviews: Best of Ping Pong 2016- uploaded by Ozzy Man Reviews on 10 February 2017Ozzy Man Reviews: Destination F Compilation (Vol.15)- uploaded by Ozzy Man Reviews on 25 February 2021________________ At around 19:02 UK time on Thursday 31 March, I'll quote this post and add one or more questions or instructions. The first eligible member to answer correctly, wins.
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met
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,796
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June 2009
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THE MET LOTTERY, by met on Mar 28, 2022 5:22:16 GMT 1, COMPETITION 45
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Jonathan Haidt on Charlie Rose March 6, 2017 [25:53] - uploaded by Converging Perspectives on 5 May 2017
Frank Bruni, an op-ed columnist for The New York Times and NYU professor Jonathan Haidt discuss free speech on college campuses, following recent violence at Middlebury College and UC Berkeley.
Jonathan Haidt Tests Viewpoint Diversity of University Student Audience [10:48] [Excerpt from panel discussion by Jill Lepore, Jonathan Haidt and Kwame Anthony Appiah at Middlebury College, Middlebury, Vermont, 21 February 2018.] - uploaded by PoliticalInsights
Jonathan David Haidt is an American social psychologist and Professor of Ethical Leadership at New York University's Stern School of Business. His academic specialization is the psychology of morality and the moral emotions. Haidt is the author of two books: The Happiness Hypothesis: Finding Modern Truth in Ancient Wisdom (2006) and The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion (2012).
He is also founder of the Heterodox Academy to support viewpoint diversity in academia: heterodoxacademy.org/
In this talk from Feb 2018 at Middlebury College he talks about viewpoint diversity, free speech and confirmation bias.
If any members are interested in the full panel discussion, titled Building a Robust Public Sphere, see here*.
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Steven Pinker: Political Correctness Might Be Redpilling America [7:59] [Excerpt from Spiked Magazine’s Unsafe Space Tour panel discussion at Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 6 November 2017.] - uploaded by Learn Liberty
Harvard psychology professor Steven Pinker argues that political correctness actually breeds the very same extremist views it hopes to quash.
If any members are interested in the full panel discussion, titled Is Political Correctness Why Trump Won?, see here*.
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Cat Powers - Manhattan (2013) - uploaded by Cat Power
LL Cool J, featuring Lt. Stitchie - Straight From Queens (1993) - uploaded by LL Cool J
Beastie Boys - No Sleep Till Brooklyn (1986) - uploaded by BeastieBoys
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Cat Power - The Greatest [Live on BBC2's Later... with Jools Holland, first aired on 23 June 2006.] - uploaded by Ron Jenkins
________________
At around 19:03 UK time on Thursday 31 March, I'll quote this post and add one or more questions or instructions. The first eligible member to answer correctly, wins.
COMPETITION 45A.B.Jonathan Haidt on Charlie Rose March 6, 2017 [25:53]- uploaded by Converging Perspectives on 5 May 2017Frank Bruni, an op-ed columnist for The New York Times and NYU professor Jonathan Haidt discuss free speech on college campuses, following recent violence at Middlebury College and UC Berkeley.Jonathan Haidt Tests Viewpoint Diversity of University Student Audience [10:48] [Excerpt from panel discussion by Jill Lepore, Jonathan Haidt and Kwame Anthony Appiah at Middlebury College, Middlebury, Vermont, 21 February 2018.]- uploaded by PoliticalInsightsJonathan David Haidt is an American social psychologist and Professor of Ethical Leadership at New York University's Stern School of Business. His academic specialization is the psychology of morality and the moral emotions. Haidt is the author of two books: The Happiness Hypothesis: Finding Modern Truth in Ancient Wisdom (2006) and The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion (2012).
He is also founder of the Heterodox Academy to support viewpoint diversity in academia: heterodoxacademy.org/
In this talk from Feb 2018 at Middlebury College he talks about viewpoint diversity, free speech and confirmation bias.If any members are interested in the full panel discussion, titled Building a Robust Public Sphere, see here *. C.Steven Pinker: Political Correctness Might Be Redpilling America [7:59] [Excerpt from Spiked Magazine’s Unsafe Space Tour panel discussion at Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 6 November 2017.]- uploaded by Learn LibertyHarvard psychology professor Steven Pinker argues that political correctness actually breeds the very same extremist views it hopes to quash.If any members are interested in the full panel discussion, titled Is Political Correctness Why Trump Won?, see here *. D.Cat Powers - Manhattan (2013)- uploaded by Cat PowerLL Cool J, featuring Lt. Stitchie - Straight From Queens (1993)- uploaded by LL Cool JBeastie Boys - No Sleep Till Brooklyn (1986)- uploaded by BeastieBoysE.Cat Power - The Greatest [Live on BBC2's Later... with Jools Holland, first aired on 23 June 2006.]- uploaded by Ron Jenkins________________ At around 19:03 UK time on Thursday 31 March, I'll quote this post and add one or more questions or instructions. The first eligible member to answer correctly, wins.
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