moron
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,711
Likes โข 1,051
September 2017
|
Is the art market a ponzi scheme, by moron on Jun 13, 2018 16:46:55 GMT 1, Regarding Jeff Koons being sued by "Art collector, Museum of Modern Art trustee, and asset manager Steven Tananbaum"
All these works of art that change hands for higher and higher prices going for millions at auction. What will happen if one day everyone wants to cash out their multi million dollar purchases at the same time?
hyperallergic.com/438875/collector-who-paid-13m-sues-jeff-koons-and-gagosian/
" Steven Tananbaum is suing Jeff Koons and Gagosian Gallery, alleging that they failed to deliver three sculptures on which he has made payments totaling over $13 million since 2013."
โInstead of manufacturing the sculptures by the initial estimated date of completion, Defendants manufacture false hope,โ the suit, filed by Tananbaumโs attorney Aaron Richard Golub, states. โThey breed a false sense of urgency to secure as many millions of dollars in deposits and payments as they can.โ The complaint adds: โAt heart, this interest-free loan system โ unbeknownst to the collectors โ is less about creating timeless works of art and more about creating an ouroboros by which Defendants maintain a never-depleting source of funds at the expense of eager and trusting collectors.โ
To date, Tananbaum says he has made payments totaling $6.4 million on the sculpture. The lawsuit alleges that the ostensibly unexpected delays are in fact part of Koonsโs system for financing his work and lifestyle.
โBehind the ostensible faรงade of Jeff Koonsโ art world triumphs and record-breaking auction sales โ illustrated by a never-ending parade of museum, art fair and art gallery exhibitions โ lurks a well-oiled machine, more specifically an established, archaic System as old as the hills applied to the art world to exploit art collectorsโ desire to own Jeff Koons sculptures,โ the suit states. โThe archaic System, once all of the obfuscations are stripped away, exposes a garden-variety, interest-free, fraudulent financial routine that harkens the name Ponzi. New money is used to pay old obligations, not to mention that the archaic System is one that oversold the artistโs capacity. Ponzi meets The Producers.โ etc etc
Regarding Jeff Koons being sued by "Art collector, Museum of Modern Art trustee, and asset manager Steven Tananbaum" All these works of art that change hands for higher and higher prices going for millions at auction. What will happen if one day everyone wants to cash out their multi million dollar purchases at the same time? hyperallergic.com/438875/collector-who-paid-13m-sues-jeff-koons-and-gagosian/" Steven Tananbaum is suing Jeff Koons and Gagosian Gallery, alleging that they failed to deliver three sculptures on which he has made payments totaling over $13 million since 2013."
โInstead of manufacturing the sculptures by the initial estimated date of completion, Defendants manufacture false hope,โ the suit, filed by Tananbaumโs attorney Aaron Richard Golub, states. โThey breed a false sense of urgency to secure as many millions of dollars in deposits and payments as they can.โ The complaint adds: โAt heart, this interest-free loan system โ unbeknownst to the collectors โ is less about creating timeless works of art and more about creating an ouroboros by which Defendants maintain a never-depleting source of funds at the expense of eager and trusting collectors.โ To date, Tananbaum says he has made payments totaling $6.4 million on the sculpture. The lawsuit alleges that the ostensibly unexpected delays are in fact part of Koonsโs system for financing his work and lifestyle. โBehind the ostensible faรงade of Jeff Koonsโ art world triumphs and record-breaking auction sales โ illustrated by a never-ending parade of museum, art fair and art gallery exhibitions โ lurks a well-oiled machine, more specifically an established, archaic System as old as the hills applied to the art world to exploit art collectorsโ desire to own Jeff Koons sculptures,โ the suit states. โThe archaic System, once all of the obfuscations are stripped away, exposes a garden-variety, interest-free, fraudulent financial routine that harkens the name Ponzi. New money is used to pay old obligations, not to mention that the archaic System is one that oversold the artistโs capacity. Ponzi meets The Producers.โ etc etc |
|
chevyav53
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,356
Likes โข 1,134
August 2017
|
Is the art market a ponzi scheme, by chevyav53 on Jun 13, 2018 16:53:28 GMT 1, That's why I own one of these, because Koons is a douche and his art is a joke.
That's why I own one of these, because Koons is a douche and his art is a joke. |
|
moron
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,711
Likes โข 1,051
September 2017
|
Is the art market a ponzi scheme, by moron on Jun 13, 2018 17:09:43 GMT 1, Lets say for example a dealer and anyone can become a dealer these days decides to put some artists art or prints into a bricks and mortar sale room and sends some of his people along to hugely bid up the sale prices creating an illusion of great demand or importance for this artist. The game is to use that publicity in order to sell this same art to wealthy people as an investment.
If a dealer is found to be doing that, in my view they should be jailed.
There again if that was to become law, i think a large part of the art global bubble would collapse.
Lets say for example a dealer and anyone can become a dealer these days decides to put some artists art or prints into a bricks and mortar sale room and sends some of his people along to hugely bid up the sale prices creating an illusion of great demand or importance for this artist. The game is to use that publicity in order to sell this same art to wealthy people as an investment.
If a dealer is found to be doing that, in my view they should be jailed.
There again if that was to become law, i think a large part of the art global bubble would collapse.
|
|
ca
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,925
Likes โข 2,375
March 2011
|
Is the art market a ponzi scheme, by ca on Jun 13, 2018 17:34:15 GMT 1, ponzi scheme might not be it following the definition of the word but if we want to put a finance concept to it, i'd say there's a lot of "pump & dump" schemes going on, been part of the art world for generations
ponzi scheme might not be it following the definition of the word but if we want to put a finance concept to it, i'd say there's a lot of "pump & dump" schemes going on, been part of the art world for generations
|
|
chr1s
New Member
Posts โข 130
Likes โข 300
February 2011
|
Is the art market a ponzi scheme, by chr1s on Jun 13, 2018 18:01:37 GMT 1, Lets say for example a dealer and anyone can become a dealer these days decides to put some artists art or prints into a bricks and mortar sale room and sends some of his people along to hugely bid up the sale prices creating an illusion of great demand or importance for this artist. The game is to use that publicity in order to sell this same art to wealthy people as an investment. If a dealer is found to be doing that, in my view they should be jailed. There again if that was to become law, i think a large part of the art global bubble would collapse.
Lets say for example a dealer and anyone can become a dealer these days decides to put some artists art or prints into a bricks and mortar sale room and sends some of his people along to hugely bid up the sale prices creating an illusion of great demand or importance for this artist. The game is to use that publicity in order to sell this same art to wealthy people as an investment. If a dealer is found to be doing that, in my view they should be jailed. There again if that was to become law, i think a large part of the art global bubble would collapse. And what about when an artist releases a limited edition print, then posts SOLD OUT on the website even though the prints have not sold out. |
|
andyroo0312
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,174
Likes โข 1,675
July 2011
|
Is the art market a ponzi scheme, by andyroo0312 on Jun 13, 2018 18:15:41 GMT 1, ponzi scheme might not be it following the definition of the word but if we want to put a finance concept to it, i'd say there's a lot of "pump & dump" schemes going on, been part of the art world for generations 
ponzi scheme might not be it following the definition of the word but if we want to put a finance concept to it, i'd say there's a lot of "pump & dump" schemes going on, been part of the art world for generations I agree. But that is also the case in the stocks and shares market, the real estate market and in every day consumer products. Buy this as its the new season cut or colour, buy this and it might make you a better cook etc. Marketing is about getting an audience and the bigger the hype ( oh i saw that on the TodayShow so it must be good, right?) the better. It is no different in the art world as far as my thinking goes... You, i . him and her are all potentials commodities, but we are also potential consumers. Its all about making the merry go round and has not really changed in 500yrs. P.s i just came back from the pub, sorry for the rave. |
|
|
|
Deleted
Posts โข 0
Likes โข
January 1970
|
Is the art market a ponzi scheme, by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 18:27:18 GMT 1,
|
|
fasttwitch
New Member
Posts โข 99
Likes โข 131
April 2017
|
Is the art market a ponzi scheme, by fasttwitch on Jun 13, 2018 19:01:01 GMT 1, ponzi scheme might not be it following the definition of the word but if we want to put a finance concept to it, i'd say there's a lot of "pump & dump" schemes going on, been part of the art world for generations I agree. But that is also the case in the stocks and shares market, the real estate market and in every day consumer products. Buy this as its the new season cut or colour, buy this and it might make you a better cook etc. Marketing is about getting an audience and the bigger the hype ( oh i saw that on the TodayShow so it must be good, right?) the better. It is no different in the art world as far as my thinking goes... You, i . him and her are all potentials commodities, but we are also potential consumers. Its all about making the merry go round and has not really changed in 500yrs. P.s i just came back from the pub, sorry for the rave.
Yes, HYPE...one of the factors art prices go up. I think a characteristic of a Ponzi scheme and pump and dump.
I was sitting close to the Kardashians at a LA Clippers game a few years back. The camera man put them up on the big screen and the crowd booed. Kris (the mom) said to Kim (who seemed bummed) said something to cheer her up like I know they always do that but remember they are making us money. The crowd boos them but when they release a perfume it sells out like a Shepard Fairey print edition. This family's talent is promoting themselves. Isn't this the case with many of the most expensive artists? Maybe there isn't great artistic talent, Hirst, Koons, Brainwash, Monopoly are just a few, but there is huge self promotion/hype. We pay lots of money for a piece of that hype and that is what makes people pay more money for something and before we know it pieces of paper are millions of dollars.
Someone is selling a Eine HYPE on the forum...I'd buy it if there was more hype surrounding it.
ponzi scheme might not be it following the definition of the word but if we want to put a finance concept to it, i'd say there's a lot of "pump & dump" schemes going on, been part of the art world for generations I agree. But that is also the case in the stocks and shares market, the real estate market and in every day consumer products. Buy this as its the new season cut or colour, buy this and it might make you a better cook etc. Marketing is about getting an audience and the bigger the hype ( oh i saw that on the TodayShow so it must be good, right?) the better. It is no different in the art world as far as my thinking goes... You, i . him and her are all potentials commodities, but we are also potential consumers. Its all about making the merry go round and has not really changed in 500yrs. P.s i just came back from the pub, sorry for the rave.
Yes, HYPE...one of the factors art prices go up. I think a characteristic of a Ponzi scheme and pump and dump.
I was sitting close to the Kardashians at a LA Clippers game a few years back. The camera man put them up on the big screen and the crowd booed. Kris (the mom) said to Kim (who seemed bummed) said something to cheer her up like I know they always do that but remember they are making us money. The crowd boos them but when they release a perfume it sells out like a Shepard Fairey print edition. This family's talent is promoting themselves. Isn't this the case with many of the most expensive artists? Maybe there isn't great artistic talent, Hirst, Koons, Brainwash, Monopoly are just a few, but there is huge self promotion/hype. We pay lots of money for a piece of that hype and that is what makes people pay more money for something and before we know it pieces of paper are millions of dollars.
Someone is selling a Eine HYPE on the forum...I'd buy it if there was more hype surrounding it.
|
|
moron
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,711
Likes โข 1,051
September 2017
|
Is the art market a ponzi scheme, by moron on Jun 13, 2018 21:18:18 GMT 1, Lets say for example a dealer and anyone can become a dealer these days decides to put some artists art or prints into a bricks and mortar sale room and sends some of his people along to hugely bid up the sale prices creating an illusion of great demand or importance for this artist. The game is to use that publicity in order to sell this same art to wealthy people as an investment. If a dealer is found to be doing that, in my view they should be jailed. There again if that was to become law, i think a large part of the art global bubble would collapse. And what about when an artist releases a limited edition print, then posts SOLD OUT on the website even though the prints have not sold out.
Or when a record label sens people out to record shops buying up singles of one of their performers to push them up the weekly charts?
Or like when someone gets fired from a city job and tells people they left in order to keep their status?
I think if the prints are bought for arts sake rather than as an investment it's probably marketing. When the prints prices are seen to be re sold on the secondary market for X times original price it's moving into investment territory.
Lets say for example a dealer and anyone can become a dealer these days decides to put some artists art or prints into a bricks and mortar sale room and sends some of his people along to hugely bid up the sale prices creating an illusion of great demand or importance for this artist. The game is to use that publicity in order to sell this same art to wealthy people as an investment. If a dealer is found to be doing that, in my view they should be jailed. There again if that was to become law, i think a large part of the art global bubble would collapse. And what about when an artist releases a limited edition print, then posts SOLD OUT on the website even though the prints have not sold out. That's similar to when a rock band announces a farewell tour and then reforms a couple of years later maybe? Or when a record label sens people out to record shops buying up singles of one of their performers to push them up the weekly charts? Or like when someone gets fired from a city job and tells people they left in order to keep their status? I think if the prints are bought for arts sake rather than as an investment it's probably marketing. When the prints prices are seen to be re sold on the secondary market for X times original price it's moving into investment territory. |
|
moron
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,711
Likes โข 1,051
September 2017
|
Is the art market a ponzi scheme, by moron on Jun 13, 2018 21:20:33 GMT 1, I agree. But that is also the case in the stocks and shares market, the real estate market and in every day consumer products. Buy this as its the new season cut or colour, buy this and it might make you a better cook etc. Marketing is about getting an audience and the bigger the hype ( oh i saw that on the TodayShow so it must be good, right?) the better. It is no different in the art world as far as my thinking goes... You, i . him and her are all potentials commodities, but we are also potential consumers. Its all about making the merry go round and has not really changed in 500yrs. P.s i just came back from the pub, sorry for the rave.
Yes, HYPE...one of the factors art prices go up. I think a characteristic of a Ponzi scheme and pump and dump.
I was sitting close to the Kardashians at a LA Clippers game a few years back. The camera man put them up on the big screen and the crowd booed. Kris (the mom) said to Kim (who seemed bummed) said something to cheer her up like I know they always do that but remember they are making us money. The crowd boos them but when they release a perfume it sells out like a Shepard Fairey print edition. This family's talent is promoting themselves. Isn't this the case with many of the most expensive artists? Maybe there isn't great artistic talent, Hirst, Koons, Brainwash, Monopoly are just a few, but there is huge self promotion/hype. We pay lots of money for a piece of that hype and that is what makes people pay more money for something and before we know it pieces of paper are millions of dollars.
Someone is selling a Eine HYPE on the forum...I'd buy it if there was more hype surrounding it.
I agree. But that is also the case in the stocks and shares market, the real estate market and in every day consumer products. Buy this as its the new season cut or colour, buy this and it might make you a better cook etc. Marketing is about getting an audience and the bigger the hype ( oh i saw that on the TodayShow so it must be good, right?) the better. It is no different in the art world as far as my thinking goes... You, i . him and her are all potentials commodities, but we are also potential consumers. Its all about making the merry go round and has not really changed in 500yrs. P.s i just came back from the pub, sorry for the rave.
Yes, HYPE...one of the factors art prices go up. I think a characteristic of a Ponzi scheme and pump and dump.
I was sitting close to the Kardashians at a LA Clippers game a few years back. The camera man put them up on the big screen and the crowd booed. Kris (the mom) said to Kim (who seemed bummed) said something to cheer her up like I know they always do that but remember they are making us money. The crowd boos them but when they release a perfume it sells out like a Shepard Fairey print edition. This family's talent is promoting themselves. Isn't this the case with many of the most expensive artists? Maybe there isn't great artistic talent, Hirst, Koons, Brainwash, Monopoly are just a few, but there is huge self promotion/hype. We pay lots of money for a piece of that hype and that is what makes people pay more money for something and before we know it pieces of paper are millions of dollars.
Someone is selling a Eine HYPE on the forum...I'd buy it if there was more hype surrounding it.
Do these people pay the media and news papers magazines etc for the articles about them or do the people that own the media also have shares in KK's for example business interests? |
|
wrigs
New Member
Posts โข 497
Likes โข 417
July 2017
|
Is the art market a ponzi scheme, by wrigs on Jun 13, 2018 21:37:55 GMT 1,
๐
๐
|
|
padqw
New Member
Posts โข 5
Likes โข 1
June 2018
|
Is the art market a ponzi scheme, by padqw on Jun 14, 2018 6:25:39 GMT 1, hype
hype
|
|
