moron
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by moron on Feb 17, 2019 22:37:07 GMT 1, I have a question: Why aren't you dedicating your efforts to helping homeless people living on the street in European countries, instead of giving freebies to economic migrants that have traveled through ~10 safe countries only to get to a social welfare state, that are harrassing truckdrivers on a daily basis and are imposing an enormous burden on the local citizens of Dunkirk and Calais? Do you want an economic argument? Because by helping and integrating those migrants you'd get an economic boost. Those are people who most willingly will work, taking low-skill occupations needed in industry and services, and pay taxes that will fund your public goods and other social services - possibly directed at the homeless.
At the same time how much are they costing Sweden and Germany to house them and provide money for them?
Show us some figures.
I have a question: Why aren't you dedicating your efforts to helping homeless people living on the street in European countries, instead of giving freebies to economic migrants that have traveled through ~10 safe countries only to get to a social welfare state, that are harrassing truckdrivers on a daily basis and are imposing an enormous burden on the local citizens of Dunkirk and Calais? Do you want an economic argument? Because by helping and integrating those migrants you'd get an economic boost. Those are people who most willingly will work, taking low-skill occupations needed in industry and services, and pay taxes that will fund your public goods and other social services - possibly directed at the homeless. Not the ones arriving in Europe from the med. How many that are in Sweden and Germany out of all of them that arrived in recent years are in full time jobs and contributing to the economy? At the same time how much are they costing Sweden and Germany to house them and provide money for them? Show us some figures. |
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moron
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by moron on Feb 17, 2019 22:42:50 GMT 1, Question. Why are they in calais, why not seek asylum in the first safe country they manage to occupy. Don't get hot headed, it is a valid question. If France thought they were valid or if they applied in France im sure they would be put into better conditions. Maybe encourage or help with that instead as it is longer term rather than a blanket
Question. Why are they in calais, why not seek asylum in the first safe country they manage to occupy. Don't get hot headed, it is a valid question. If France thought they were valid or if they applied in France im sure they would be put into better conditions. Maybe encourage or help with that instead as it is longer term rather than a blanket According to one Iranian who arrived in Britain. The people in Calais posing as migrants are actually the smuggling gangs who are helping migrants get into the UK. So Calais is where the migrants and gangs congregate. |
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moron
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by moron on Feb 17, 2019 22:48:46 GMT 1, @blanksky Really dude? You're living in a country that exploited and destroyed the cultures, resources and livelihoods of billions of people on this planet for centuries and you think a few thousand people in need coming for help during times of difficulties are the enemy?
Tell me how Sweden and other european countries destroyed cultures and resources over centuries etc ?
If anything, Africans and Europeans should demand damages and money from rich Arab states for the African and white slave trade.
When Europe was building it's infrastructure, houses, institutions, factories, hospitals education system. Over the centuries. What was stopping people on the African continent and middle east from doing the same?
@blanksky Really dude? You're living in a country that exploited and destroyed the cultures, resources and livelihoods of billions of people on this planet for centuries and you think a few thousand people in need coming for help during times of difficulties are the enemy? Absolute rubbish. Tell me how Sweden and other european countries destroyed cultures and resources over centuries etc ? If anything, Africans and Europeans should demand damages and money from rich Arab states for the African and white slave trade. When Europe was building it's infrastructure, houses, institutions, factories, hospitals education system. Over the centuries. What was stopping people on the African continent and middle east from doing the same? |
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moron
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by moron on Feb 17, 2019 22:53:16 GMT 1, Nice try.
That report is about the benefits that European migrants have brought to Britain. As in Europeans from EU countries who moved to Britain and work and contribute. It has nothing to do with the illegals arriving en masse on the shores of Europe and who were welcomed in Germany and Sweden etc and actually cost the countries money.
Nice try. That report is about the benefits that European migrants have brought to Britain. As in Europeans from EU countries who moved to Britain and work and contribute. It has nothing to do with the illegals arriving en masse on the shores of Europe and who were welcomed in Germany and Sweden etc and actually cost the countries money. |
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moron
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by moron on Feb 17, 2019 23:00:52 GMT 1, The main point you are all missing is automation/AI. Every study i've seen quoted and read on immigration of low skilled workers into a highly educated society bases their statistical data (inherently) on data from the past. You can not compare pre-internet migration numbers where people actually migrated to work and had some basic skills to offer to a not that industrialized society, to post mass-internet migration numbers where a lot of people simply migrate because they have gotten the impression through the internet in general and social media in particular that 'the west' or 'Europe' offers you free money, housing and jobs, which is a huge improvement from the corrupts**thole you are currently living in. There aren't actual jobs you can do when you have no skills or education, which is perfectly seen in the % of migrants arriving in the Netherlands that are either working or on welfare within a few years of arrival. 50,9% of all people on welfare in my country are non western immigrants, 9% are western immigrants. Dutch citizens make up the remaining 40%. statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/publication/?DM=SLNL&PA=82016NEDAnd it's getting worse. Way worse. There are giant leaps being made in AI and automation, which will render a lot of low skilled jobs obsolete. All these statistical models that base their conclusions on historical data tell me that they can project these same patterns on the future, which you just can't.
Migration can be good for a countries economy while at the same time being detrimental to society depending on the numbers of migrants and whether the migrants integrate or refuse to integrate into the countrys society and structure or whether they decide to refuse to integrate and place more and more demands on society to suit their own agenda.
Victor Orban was elected by Hungarians to protect and preserve the identity and cultural values of Hungarians. There is nothing racist in that.
The main point you are all missing is automation/AI. Every study i've seen quoted and read on immigration of low skilled workers into a highly educated society bases their statistical data (inherently) on data from the past. You can not compare pre-internet migration numbers where people actually migrated to work and had some basic skills to offer to a not that industrialized society, to post mass-internet migration numbers where a lot of people simply migrate because they have gotten the impression through the internet in general and social media in particular that 'the west' or 'Europe' offers you free money, housing and jobs, which is a huge improvement from the corrupts**thole you are currently living in. There aren't actual jobs you can do when you have no skills or education, which is perfectly seen in the % of migrants arriving in the Netherlands that are either working or on welfare within a few years of arrival. 50,9% of all people on welfare in my country are non western immigrants, 9% are western immigrants. Dutch citizens make up the remaining 40%. statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/publication/?DM=SLNL&PA=82016NEDAnd it's getting worse. Way worse. There are giant leaps being made in AI and automation, which will render a lot of low skilled jobs obsolete. All these statistical models that base their conclusions on historical data tell me that they can project these same patterns on the future, which you just can't. Migration can be good for a countries economy while at the same time being detrimental to society depending on the numbers of migrants and whether the migrants integrate or refuse to integrate into the countrys society and structure or whether they decide to refuse to integrate and place more and more demands on society to suit their own agenda. Victor Orban was elected by Hungarians to protect and preserve the identity and cultural values of Hungarians. There is nothing racist in that. |
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moron
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by moron on Feb 17, 2019 23:02:03 GMT 1,
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.dappy
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by .dappy on Feb 17, 2019 23:09:51 GMT 1, ... oh good! ... what a surprise ... the moron is again posting videos he picks off of you tube to prove his point ...
... oh good! ... what a surprise ... the moron is again posting videos he picks off of you tube to prove his point ...
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Dive Jedi
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Dive Jedi on Feb 18, 2019 13:04:16 GMT 1, Let's not pretend it's so clear cut though. The increased supply of low skilled workers (decorators, call centre workers, economists etc) does suppress the wages of those that need it most. Hence why the boss of Pret a Manger, for example, is such a fan of freedom of movement. Your argument is affected by a so called partial equilibrium fallacy ie you are assuming that when the supply of immigrant labour increases, the rest of the economy stays the same โ and thatโs just plain wrong. First, the immigrants not only supply labour, they also generate demand for goods and services . Especially since they end up consuming a very large share of their income (optimal saving rates tend to be roughly inversely proportional to wealth, and proportional to age before midlife, hence immigrants consume quite a bit since they tend to be younger and poorer). This effect in turn generates more work and wealth in the host country, pushing up wages too. Second immigrants are typically younger than the average population, yet mostly not infant and post schooling. This implies that immigrant groups tend to pay in taxes much more than they receive in welfare benefits (since these are mostly absorbed by public health, pensions, and schooling costs). Hence immigrants help even public finances. Once again, reducing the needs for contractionary fiscal policies and therefore stimulating economic activity and everybodyโs wages. Even on the โlaw and orderโ front, immigrants seem to be a good deal, since as a whole they tend to commit less crimes than residents. As Fast Eddie points out, these effects are not too hard to measure. And when researchers go and measure them (and have done so zillion times), the overwhelming scientific consensus is that immigration (at least of the type that we have experienced in the last few centuries of data) has a positive effect on the economy, on wages, and on public finances. Indeed a fact, not an opinion.
The only thing that slightly interested me to study in university was economics.
So glad I didn't nowโฆโฆ.
Let's not pretend it's so clear cut though. The increased supply of low skilled workers (decorators, call centre workers, economists etc) does suppress the wages of those that need it most. Hence why the boss of Pret a Manger, for example, is such a fan of freedom of movement. Your argument is affected by a so called partial equilibrium fallacy ie you are assuming that when the supply of immigrant labour increases, the rest of the economy stays the same โ and thatโs just plain wrong. First, the immigrants not only supply labour, they also generate demand for goods and services . Especially since they end up consuming a very large share of their income (optimal saving rates tend to be roughly inversely proportional to wealth, and proportional to age before midlife, hence immigrants consume quite a bit since they tend to be younger and poorer). This effect in turn generates more work and wealth in the host country, pushing up wages too. Second immigrants are typically younger than the average population, yet mostly not infant and post schooling. This implies that immigrant groups tend to pay in taxes much more than they receive in welfare benefits (since these are mostly absorbed by public health, pensions, and schooling costs). Hence immigrants help even public finances. Once again, reducing the needs for contractionary fiscal policies and therefore stimulating economic activity and everybodyโs wages. Even on the โlaw and orderโ front, immigrants seem to be a good deal, since as a whole they tend to commit less crimes than residents. As Fast Eddie points out, these effects are not too hard to measure. And when researchers go and measure them (and have done so zillion times), the overwhelming scientific consensus is that immigration (at least of the type that we have experienced in the last few centuries of data) has a positive effect on the economy, on wages, and on public finances. Indeed a fact, not an opinion. The only thing that slightly interested me to study in university was economics. So glad I didn't nowโฆโฆ. |
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Deleted
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 13:34:10 GMT 1, Your argument is affected by a so called partial equilibrium fallacy ie you are assuming that when the supply of immigrant labour increases, the rest of the economy stays the same โ and thatโs just plain wrong. First, the immigrants not only supply labour, they also generate demand for goods and services . Especially since they end up consuming a very large share of their income (optimal saving rates tend to be roughly inversely proportional to wealth, and proportional to age before midlife, hence immigrants consume quite a bit since they tend to be younger and poorer). This effect in turn generates more work and wealth in the host country, pushing up wages too. Second immigrants are typically younger than the average population, yet mostly not infant and post schooling. This implies that immigrant groups tend to pay in taxes much more than they receive in welfare benefits (since these are mostly absorbed by public health, pensions, and schooling costs). Hence immigrants help even public finances. Once again, reducing the needs for contractionary fiscal policies and therefore stimulating economic activity and everybodyโs wages. Even on the โlaw and orderโ front, immigrants seem to be a good deal, since as a whole they tend to commit less crimes than residents. As Fast Eddie points out, these effects are not too hard to measure. And when researchers go and measure them (and have done so zillion times), the overwhelming scientific consensus is that immigration (at least of the type that we have experienced in the last few centuries of data) has a positive effect on the economy, on wages, and on public finances. Indeed a fact, not an opinion. The only thing that slightly interested me to study in university was economics. So glad I didn't nowโฆโฆ.
I find it pretty interesting
it also does affect almosts everything we do
I like all the Tipping point and freakanomic books
the thing I struggle with though is being able to sort fact from fiction.Hopefully i am not alone in this :-)
Your argument is affected by a so called partial equilibrium fallacy ie you are assuming that when the supply of immigrant labour increases, the rest of the economy stays the same โ and thatโs just plain wrong. First, the immigrants not only supply labour, they also generate demand for goods and services . Especially since they end up consuming a very large share of their income (optimal saving rates tend to be roughly inversely proportional to wealth, and proportional to age before midlife, hence immigrants consume quite a bit since they tend to be younger and poorer). This effect in turn generates more work and wealth in the host country, pushing up wages too. Second immigrants are typically younger than the average population, yet mostly not infant and post schooling. This implies that immigrant groups tend to pay in taxes much more than they receive in welfare benefits (since these are mostly absorbed by public health, pensions, and schooling costs). Hence immigrants help even public finances. Once again, reducing the needs for contractionary fiscal policies and therefore stimulating economic activity and everybodyโs wages. Even on the โlaw and orderโ front, immigrants seem to be a good deal, since as a whole they tend to commit less crimes than residents. As Fast Eddie points out, these effects are not too hard to measure. And when researchers go and measure them (and have done so zillion times), the overwhelming scientific consensus is that immigration (at least of the type that we have experienced in the last few centuries of data) has a positive effect on the economy, on wages, and on public finances. Indeed a fact, not an opinion. The only thing that slightly interested me to study in university was economics. So glad I didn't nowโฆโฆ. why? I find it pretty interesting it also does affect almosts everything we do I like all the Tipping point and freakanomic books the thing I struggle with though is being able to sort fact from fiction.Hopefully i am not alone in this :-) |
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Deleted
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 13:35:23 GMT 1, Maybe point us towards the studies / meterial underlying this โhuge debateโ going on at the moment. I would genuinely be keen to read it, because the overwhelming amount of vastly researched materials I have read so far, point to the fact there is no debate. 
Poor Beatrice, hope she is ok
Maybe point us towards the studies / meterial underlying this โhuge debateโ going on at the moment. I would genuinely be keen to read it, because the overwhelming amount of vastly researched materials I have read so far, point to the fact there is no debate. Poor Beatrice, hope she is ok |
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Dive Jedi
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Dive Jedi on Feb 18, 2019 13:52:33 GMT 1, The only thing that slightly interested me to study in university was economics. So glad I didn't nowโฆโฆ. why? I find it pretty interesting it also does affect almosts everything we do I like all the Tipping point and freakanomic books the thing I struggle with though is being able to sort fact from fiction.Hopefully i am not alone in this :-)
It's not really scienceโฆ..
I know supply and demand. 
The only thing that slightly interested me to study in university was economics. So glad I didn't nowโฆโฆ. why? I find it pretty interesting it also does affect almosts everything we do I like all the Tipping point and freakanomic books the thing I struggle with though is being able to sort fact from fiction.Hopefully i am not alone in this :-) Ask 5 economists the same question and you will get 5 different answers. It's not really scienceโฆ.. I know supply and demand. |
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Deleted
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 14:48:24 GMT 1, why? I find it pretty interesting it also does affect almosts everything we do I like all the Tipping point and freakanomic books the thing I struggle with though is being able to sort fact from fiction.Hopefully i am not alone in this :-) Ask 5 economists the same question and you will get 5 different answers. It's not really scienceโฆ.. I know supply and demand.
If I could do back in time I definitely would have studied an actual science instead. Or better yet I would have done Maths.
The main problem with economists is they have no skin in the game. 'Based of our models GDP was due to fall 2% last year, it actually went up to 2%. Oh well, we will adjust our model this year'. We should make it law that they have to invest their pension pots based off their models, see if that sharpens them up a bit.
why? I find it pretty interesting it also does affect almosts everything we do I like all the Tipping point and freakanomic books the thing I struggle with though is being able to sort fact from fiction.Hopefully i am not alone in this :-) Ask 5 economists the same question and you will get 5 different answers. It's not really scienceโฆ.. I know supply and demand. If I could do back in time I definitely would have studied an actual science instead. Or better yet I would have done Maths. The main problem with economists is they have no skin in the game. 'Based of our models GDP was due to fall 2% last year, it actually went up to 2%. Oh well, we will adjust our model this year'. We should make it law that they have to invest their pension pots based off their models, see if that sharpens them up a bit. |
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Dive Jedi
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Dive Jedi on Feb 18, 2019 14:57:19 GMT 1, Ask 5 economists the same question and you will get 5 different answers. It's not really scienceโฆ.. I know supply and demand. If I could do back in time I definitely would have studied an actual science instead. Or better yet I would have done Maths. The main problem with economists is they have no skin in the game. 'Based of our models GDP was due to fall 2% last year, it actually went up to 2%. Oh well, we will adjust our model this year'. We should make it law that they have to invest their pension pots based off their models, see if that sharpens them up a bit.
I have attended meetings where was presented that based upon the latest research it showed this results.
However that result does not match with our feelings of the current situation, so we will adjust our research so the results will align with our gut feeling.
True story - Multi billion dollar company....
Ask 5 economists the same question and you will get 5 different answers. It's not really scienceโฆ.. I know supply and demand. If I could do back in time I definitely would have studied an actual science instead. Or better yet I would have done Maths. The main problem with economists is they have no skin in the game. 'Based of our models GDP was due to fall 2% last year, it actually went up to 2%. Oh well, we will adjust our model this year'. We should make it law that they have to invest their pension pots based off their models, see if that sharpens them up a bit. Same with market research..... I have attended meetings where was presented that based upon the latest research it showed this results. However that result does not match with our feelings of the current situation, so we will adjust our research so the results will align with our gut feeling. True story - Multi billion dollar company.... |
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Deleted
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 15:01:37 GMT 1, If I could do back in time I definitely would have studied an actual science instead. Or better yet I would have done Maths. The main problem with economists is they have no skin in the game. 'Based of our models GDP was due to fall 2% last year, it actually went up to 2%. Oh well, we will adjust our model this year'. We should make it law that they have to invest their pension pots based off their models, see if that sharpens them up a bit. Same with market research..... I have attended meetings where was presented that based upon the latest research it showed this results. However that result does not match with our feelings of the current situation, so we will adjust our research so the results will align with our gut feeling. True story - Multi billion dollar company....
Classic confirmation bias and I would imagine very common.
Actually, I take it back I would study psychology if I could go back and do it all over again. Books like Fooled by Randomness and Thinking Fast and Slow really changed how I looked at everything. Us humans are really quite shit at thinking.
If I could do back in time I definitely would have studied an actual science instead. Or better yet I would have done Maths. The main problem with economists is they have no skin in the game. 'Based of our models GDP was due to fall 2% last year, it actually went up to 2%. Oh well, we will adjust our model this year'. We should make it law that they have to invest their pension pots based off their models, see if that sharpens them up a bit. Same with market research..... I have attended meetings where was presented that based upon the latest research it showed this results. However that result does not match with our feelings of the current situation, so we will adjust our research so the results will align with our gut feeling. True story - Multi billion dollar company.... Classic confirmation bias and I would imagine very common. Actually, I take it back I would study psychology if I could go back and do it all over again. Books like Fooled by Randomness and Thinking Fast and Slow really changed how I looked at everything. Us humans are really quite shit at thinking. |
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Dive Jedi
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Dive Jedi on Feb 18, 2019 15:07:02 GMT 1, @jt36 If I could go back in time I would do it all over again.
Maybe not buy any Alfa Romeo's from the 80's again thoughโฆ.
@jt36 If I could go back in time I would do it all over again.
Maybe not buy any Alfa Romeo's from the 80's again thoughโฆ.
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Deleted
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 16:09:53 GMT 1, @jt36 If I could go back in time I would do it all over again. Maybe not buy any Alfa Romeo's from the 80's again thoughโฆ.
Haha. Alfa suds. Brilliant cars. Got to be on it when the bonnet flies up at your windscreen at 80 MPH as its rusted away
@jt36 If I could go back in time I would do it all over again. Maybe not buy any Alfa Romeo's from the 80's again thoughโฆ. Haha. Alfa suds. Brilliant cars. Got to be on it when the bonnet flies up at your windscreen at 80 MPH as its rusted away |
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Spider Joe
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Spider Joe on Feb 18, 2019 16:25:34 GMT 1, @jt36 If I could go back in time I would do it all over again. Maybe not buy any Alfa Romeo's from the 80's again thoughโฆ. Haha. Alfa suds. Brilliant cars. Got to be on it when the bonnet flies up at your windscreen at 80 MPH as its rusted away
@jt36 If I could go back in time I would do it all over again. Maybe not buy any Alfa Romeo's from the 80's again thoughโฆ. Haha. Alfa suds. Brilliant cars. Got to be on it when the bonnet flies up at your windscreen at 80 MPH as its rusted away Alfasud doing 80mph? really? |
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Fast Eddie
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Fast Eddie on Feb 18, 2019 16:34:00 GMT 1, The only correct assertions here regard Alfa Romeo, which are genuinely nasty cars. I say it with great admiration.
About Economics, well let's just say that it has its limits in forecasting, but so does meteorology. Plus, much of what is done in that field is not macro forecasting or prediction anyway.
Finally, you can see on what top economists agree or disagree on here:
www.igmchicago.org/igm-economic-experts-panel
The only correct assertions here regard Alfa Romeo, which are genuinely nasty cars. I say it with great admiration. About Economics, well let's just say that it has its limits in forecasting, but so does meteorology. Plus, much of what is done in that field is not macro forecasting or prediction anyway. Finally, you can see on what top economists agree or disagree on here: www.igmchicago.org/igm-economic-experts-panel |
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Dive Jedi
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Dive Jedi on Feb 19, 2019 13:22:14 GMT 1, Haha. Alfa suds. Brilliant cars. Got to be on it when the bonnet flies up at your windscreen at 80 MPH as its rusted away Alfasud doing 80mph? really?
I had Guiletta's though. 1.8 was faster then a Porsche 924.
Until I had a flat and the jack went up all the way without the car moving. 
Haha. Alfa suds. Brilliant cars. Got to be on it when the bonnet flies up at your windscreen at 80 MPH as its rusted away Alfasud doing 80mph? really? AlfaSud 1.5 was really fast. I had Guiletta's though. 1.8 was faster then a Porsche 924. Until I had a flat and the jack went up all the way without the car moving. |
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Chris JL
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Chris JL on Feb 19, 2019 23:16:08 GMT 1, Had a GTV in the nineties that was more an attempted suicide than a car.
Had a GTV in the nineties that was more an attempted suicide than a car.
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