lee3
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by lee3 on Oct 2, 2008 17:58:55 GMT 1, >>>I think it's not that well publicised for people looking to buy urban art, think the dreweatts and bonhams sales will be the focus of the majority of the public. <<<
I would put Dreweatts so far down the ladder for results it's not even close. If Sotheby's and Chsitie's sales show decline, Dreweatts will be a complete disaster. The art market (like so many other markets) has long been overdue for a correction so I see this as healthy. We will certainly see the weakness in the print markets fist and if the buy in ratio was a lot higher today as someone posted than the same sale last fall, that is not a good sign of things to come.
>>>I think it's not that well publicised for people looking to buy urban art, think the dreweatts and bonhams sales will be the focus of the majority of the public. <<<
I would put Dreweatts so far down the ladder for results it's not even close. If Sotheby's and Chsitie's sales show decline, Dreweatts will be a complete disaster. The art market (like so many other markets) has long been overdue for a correction so I see this as healthy. We will certainly see the weakness in the print markets fist and if the buy in ratio was a lot higher today as someone posted than the same sale last fall, that is not a good sign of things to come.
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lee3
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by lee3 on Oct 2, 2008 18:02:34 GMT 1, >>>A good art buying tip is to go for works by people nearing the end of their life. Cruel I know but then so is life. <<<
Based on what? I've researched this pretty well and OFTEN an artist's prices decline by a good 20% in the short term after death because the market gets flooded with supply and/or you have an estate or foundation that does a poor job of handling all of the work that went unsold during the artist's lifetime. Obviously, if you're at Rauschenberg's level, I would agree but Sam Francis wasn't far below him and his prices were decimated upon his death. And they still lag in many cases prices that were obtained during his life. There are just too many variables (like multiple ex wives in Sam Francis' case) to make a blanket statement like that.
>>>A good art buying tip is to go for works by people nearing the end of their life. Cruel I know but then so is life. <<<
Based on what? I've researched this pretty well and OFTEN an artist's prices decline by a good 20% in the short term after death because the market gets flooded with supply and/or you have an estate or foundation that does a poor job of handling all of the work that went unsold during the artist's lifetime. Obviously, if you're at Rauschenberg's level, I would agree but Sam Francis wasn't far below him and his prices were decimated upon his death. And they still lag in many cases prices that were obtained during his life. There are just too many variables (like multiple ex wives in Sam Francis' case) to make a blanket statement like that.
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Winter
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by Winter on Oct 2, 2008 18:51:11 GMT 1, It was a flippant comment but thanks for highlighting areas where this isn't the case. You do however refer to the decline in the short term. What about long term?
It was a flippant comment but thanks for highlighting areas where this isn't the case. You do however refer to the decline in the short term. What about long term?
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by snausages on Oct 2, 2008 18:57:15 GMT 1, If Sotheby's and Chsitie's sales show decline, Dreweatts will be a complete disaster.
Interesting, Rauschenberg would be a good one to study then, I've noticed people have been asking more for his prints now, although I don't know if they've been getting their higher prices. Haven't paid much attention to his originals as they're unfortunately out of my league.
- Thanks for your input.
If Sotheby's and Chsitie's sales show decline, Dreweatts will be a complete disaster. So sub par auction houses so to speak might do worse than the big two? Radical thinking! Interesting, Rauschenberg would be a good one to study then, I've noticed people have been asking more for his prints now, although I don't know if they've been getting their higher prices. Haven't paid much attention to his originals as they're unfortunately out of my league. - Thanks for your input. |
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lee3
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by lee3 on Oct 2, 2008 19:29:22 GMT 1, >>>You do however refer to the decline in the short term. What about long term? <<<
You tell me. It's entirely artist specific and my guess would be that 99.9999% of art loses value upon the artist's death becasue the artist simply is not marketing their work anymore and most artists go unnoticed by society anyway. For the lucky 1% of artist's that make 99% of the money, many of them obviously have huge appreciation posthumously. But, even within that 1%, there are often foundations and other arrangments (children and ex spouses) that can hurt the price in the short term (5 years after death). If an artist's work is strong enough that we're still discussing it 10 years after death, than you're absolutely right that it would be a good buy financially. My caution still stands however; buying the work of an established artist just because he or she is old is not necessarily a wise move financially for reasons completely out of your control.
Now that the finance BS is out of the way, in the end, you simply have to buy what you love for artistic enjoyment. I wouldn't give priority in this area to anyone just because they are on the back nine of their career.
>>>You do however refer to the decline in the short term. What about long term? <<<
You tell me. It's entirely artist specific and my guess would be that 99.9999% of art loses value upon the artist's death becasue the artist simply is not marketing their work anymore and most artists go unnoticed by society anyway. For the lucky 1% of artist's that make 99% of the money, many of them obviously have huge appreciation posthumously. But, even within that 1%, there are often foundations and other arrangments (children and ex spouses) that can hurt the price in the short term (5 years after death). If an artist's work is strong enough that we're still discussing it 10 years after death, than you're absolutely right that it would be a good buy financially. My caution still stands however; buying the work of an established artist just because he or she is old is not necessarily a wise move financially for reasons completely out of your control.
Now that the finance BS is out of the way, in the end, you simply have to buy what you love for artistic enjoyment. I wouldn't give priority in this area to anyone just because they are on the back nine of their career.
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Simococo
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by Simococo on Oct 2, 2008 19:35:15 GMT 1, thank god the bubble is bursting
affordable street art
just the way it should be
thank god the bubble is bursting
affordable street art
just the way it should be
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aginghippie
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December 2007
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by aginghippie on Oct 2, 2008 20:23:37 GMT 1, There were five Warhol Queen Elizabeth II's (I'm looking for one to pair with a Turf War print) in that auction and they all hit the mid-point of their estimates. The auctioneers can price these pretty accurately because they have a history whereas the Banksy and similar prints lack that record. It means you are more likely to get a bargain on the new works but equally the price will be much more variable.
There were five Warhol Queen Elizabeth II's (I'm looking for one to pair with a Turf War print) in that auction and they all hit the mid-point of their estimates. The auctioneers can price these pretty accurately because they have a history whereas the Banksy and similar prints lack that record. It means you are more likely to get a bargain on the new works but equally the price will be much more variable.
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pfffffffffft
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by pfffffffffft on Oct 2, 2008 20:32:41 GMT 1, 35% is the average? Is that opinion or is someone talking out their arse  I think 35% is a lot higher than average based on my experience. And if the unsold average at one of the top two auction houses in the world is at 40% in this climate I wonder what the average might be at a sub par auction house with sub par lots? Anyway, if you socked away some money looks like you might be able to get some good buys now that the good times are over. Just don't expect a return to runaway prices for years imo.
Hey knucklehead. Your "experience" has proven pretty meaningless, as all of your talking out of your ass showed when you didnt take the wager, remember, put up or shut up? We just went through this in the other thread, I went through and totaled a bunch of different recent auction results different types of sales and different houses, different calibers of houses including L & T to Sothebys and Christies, and they were averaging 35%
Please proceed swiftly to another board and pick up your steaming pile of s**t award.
35% is the average? Is that opinion or is someone talking out their arse I think 35% is a lot higher than average based on my experience. And if the unsold average at one of the top two auction houses in the world is at 40% in this climate I wonder what the average might be at a sub par auction house with sub par lots? Anyway, if you socked away some money looks like you might be able to get some good buys now that the good times are over. Just don't expect a return to runaway prices for years imo. Hey knucklehead. Your "experience" has proven pretty meaningless, as all of your talking out of your ass showed when you didnt take the wager, remember, put up or shut up? We just went through this in the other thread, I went through and totaled a bunch of different recent auction results different types of sales and different houses, different calibers of houses including L & T to Sothebys and Christies, and they were averaging 35% Please proceed swiftly to another board and pick up your steaming pile of s**t award. |
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by worlddomination on Oct 2, 2008 20:53:49 GMT 1, Some people collect junk bonds, some people collect share certificates, some treasury bills and so on. Statisticians can provide you with information as to what has happened, what will happen and what may happen. For the most part it based on one persons research compared to another persons research. Art is also collected by people and behind those people are another load of statisticians. One thing is for sure, they will all go up and down in value, that much is fact. At least with art you can get some enjoyment from it on the wall. That's my take.
Some people collect junk bonds, some people collect share certificates, some treasury bills and so on. Statisticians can provide you with information as to what has happened, what will happen and what may happen. For the most part it based on one persons research compared to another persons research. Art is also collected by people and behind those people are another load of statisticians. One thing is for sure, they will all go up and down in value, that much is fact. At least with art you can get some enjoyment from it on the wall. That's my take.
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Simococo
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by Simococo on Oct 2, 2008 21:05:31 GMT 1, je concur
je concur
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by worlddomination on Oct 2, 2008 21:15:58 GMT 1, Gracias
Gracias
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by snausages on Oct 2, 2008 21:17:34 GMT 1, So plfft, are you saying you don't think that lower tier auction houses would have a worse buy in rate than top tier auction houses? I suppose reserves have no impact on unsold lots either. Nor do the quality of the lots? oi...
But whatever. If you want to discuss a wager we need to both agree on the terms, any idiot would understand that. PM me and we can discuss it further if you really want. Because I doubt the forum appreciates you dragging yet another thread through the mud again with your ridiculous and lopsided terms all in your quest to 'prove me wrong' any chance you get.
But continue to make an ass of yourself anytime you wish.
So plfft, are you saying you don't think that lower tier auction houses would have a worse buy in rate than top tier auction houses? I suppose reserves have no impact on unsold lots either. Nor do the quality of the lots? oi...
But whatever. If you want to discuss a wager we need to both agree on the terms, any idiot would understand that. PM me and we can discuss it further if you really want. Because I doubt the forum appreciates you dragging yet another thread through the mud again with your ridiculous and lopsided terms all in your quest to 'prove me wrong' any chance you get.
But continue to make an ass of yourself anytime you wish.
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by veralynn on Oct 2, 2008 21:22:01 GMT 1, Moi Aussi (and that's about as good as my fransglais gets).
If you like it buy it for what it costs and stick it on the wall, if it goes up in value and you wish to realise that good for you. If it goes down in value then you rationalise this against the enjoyment it's provided for you whilst on said wall. If you've bought stuff over the last 6 months to flip and jump on the gravy train and have lost money - tough shit.
Moi Aussi (and that's about as good as my fransglais gets).
If you like it buy it for what it costs and stick it on the wall, if it goes up in value and you wish to realise that good for you. If it goes down in value then you rationalise this against the enjoyment it's provided for you whilst on said wall. If you've bought stuff over the last 6 months to flip and jump on the gravy train and have lost money - tough shit.
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pfffffffffft
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by pfffffffffft on Oct 2, 2008 22:34:24 GMT 1, So plfft, are you saying you don't think that lower tier auction houses would have a worse buy in rate as the the top tier auction houses? I suppose reserves have no impact on unsold lots either. Nor do the quality of the lots? oi... But whatever. If you want to discuss a wager we need to both agree on the terms, any idiot would understand that. PM me and we can discuss it further if you really want. Because I doubt the forum appreciates you dragging yet another thread through the mud again with your ridiculous and lopsided terms all in your quest to 'prove me wrong' any chance you get. But continue to make an ass of yourself anytime if you wish.
Congratulations, you're a winner!
So plfft, are you saying you don't think that lower tier auction houses would have a worse buy in rate as the the top tier auction houses? I suppose reserves have no impact on unsold lots either. Nor do the quality of the lots? oi... But whatever. If you want to discuss a wager we need to both agree on the terms, any idiot would understand that. PM me and we can discuss it further if you really want. Because I doubt the forum appreciates you dragging yet another thread through the mud again with your ridiculous and lopsided terms all in your quest to 'prove me wrong' any chance you get. But continue to make an ass of yourself anytime if you wish. Congratulations, you're a winner! |
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by alsbabar on Oct 3, 2008 0:59:31 GMT 1, didnt see much of art bubble burst tonight - went to the Dface show - literally a sell out - then went on to the JR - a sell out show
perhaps the auction houses are taking a dip - but not the galleries
didnt see much of art bubble burst tonight - went to the Dface show - literally a sell out - then went on to the JR - a sell out show
perhaps the auction houses are taking a dip - but not the galleries
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pfffffffffft
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by pfffffffffft on Oct 3, 2008 4:21:24 GMT 1, The major contemporary auctions for the season haven even taken place yet, what are people talking about a dip? Everyone knew warhol prints would have to come down soon as they were too highly priced for too long, hardly think that constitutes a market crash.
Oh it was just snausages yammering on that the 70% unsold rate at the lyon & turnbull fiasco was all based on the economy.
The major contemporary auctions for the season haven even taken place yet, what are people talking about a dip? Everyone knew warhol prints would have to come down soon as they were too highly priced for too long, hardly think that constitutes a market crash. Oh it was just snausages yammering on that the 70% unsold rate at the lyon & turnbull fiasco was all based on the economy. |
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by snausages on Oct 3, 2008 5:18:59 GMT 1, yawn.
Hard to tell if you're a moron or just a total jerka$$. Oh well. Nice attempt to warp what I said into something I didn't say. But good to see you're still on your mission to mess with me at "every turn." Nice to know I have a groupie waiting on my every word. 
yawn. Hard to tell if you're a moron or just a total jerka$$. Oh well. Nice attempt to warp what I said into something I didn't say. But good to see you're still on your mission to mess with me at "every turn." Nice to know I have a groupie waiting on my every word. |
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lee3
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by lee3 on Oct 17, 2008 18:45:57 GMT 1, The show begins in ~ 20 minutes and will be the first real indication of where the art market stands given the capitulation occuring in just about every other market in the world over the past month. This sale will set the tone for the next week which I'm looking forward too.
I'm fond of the Hodgkin, the warhol skulls & mona lisa, and the Banksy Queen Vic. Given the strength of the dollar, there could be more US buyers than usual at the London market since VAT isn't applicable which if the Kate Moss screen prints went for their low end, equates to $90k per print after premium but before artist resale rights. I'm going to enjoy watching this over lunch.
browse.sothebys.com/?browsesort=lot_sort_number&cat=1&count=100&dp=Contemporary+Art&event_id=28705&g=1&hp=&hpc=&i=1&nb=1&sale_id=L08024&u1=dp
Once the sale begins, you can watch results as they occur at the following link (when they list the sale).
www.sothebys.com/app/live/event/EventResultsLanding.jsp
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motor
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by motor on Oct 17, 2008 18:49:25 GMT 1, Thanks Lee3.
I've just poured myself a glass of Jack - so I am ready to watch.
It should be really interesting.
Thanks Lee3.
I've just poured myself a glass of Jack - so I am ready to watch.
It should be really interesting.
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lee3
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by lee3 on Oct 17, 2008 18:53:38 GMT 1, Motor:
I'm at work and your reply just isn't fair. I'd much prefer your style to sitting in an office over a chicken salad.
Motor:
I'm at work and your reply just isn't fair. I'd much prefer your style to sitting in an office over a chicken salad.
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samo
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by samo on Oct 17, 2008 18:54:04 GMT 1, Thanks Lee. Looking forward to watch this.
Thanks Lee. Looking forward to watch this.
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motor
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by motor on Oct 17, 2008 18:57:51 GMT 1, ;D
;D
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by Daniel Silk on Oct 17, 2008 18:59:56 GMT 1, LOT 43 - BANKSY
B. 1975
KATE MOSS
250,000β350,000 GBP
LOT 47 - BANKSY
B. 1975
QUEEN VICTORIA
250,000β350,000 GBP
LOT 43 - BANKSY
B. 1975
KATE MOSS
250,000β350,000 GBP
LOT 47 - BANKSY
B. 1975
QUEEN VICTORIA
250,000β350,000 GBP
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rrrich
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by rrrich on Oct 17, 2008 19:09:21 GMT 1, do the results come up at the end of the auction or continuous updates?
do the results come up at the end of the auction or continuous updates?
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lee3
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by lee3 on Oct 17, 2008 19:13:21 GMT 1, do the results come up at the end of the auction or continuous updates?
Usually continuous updates. They tend to kick off 10-15 minutes after the scheduled open so hopefully it will be up and running by the time i return with my food.
do the results come up at the end of the auction or continuous updates? Usually continuous updates. They tend to kick off 10-15 minutes after the scheduled open so hopefully it will be up and running by the time i return with my food. |
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funster
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by funster on Oct 17, 2008 19:20:04 GMT 1, Really looking forward to this one. I feel it will be more positive than recent auctions.
Really looking forward to this one. I feel it will be more positive than recent auctions.
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Winter
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by Winter on Oct 17, 2008 19:20:47 GMT 1, And they're off!
And they're off!
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afroken
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by afroken on Oct 17, 2008 19:20:57 GMT 1, pretty dam good start!
pretty dam good start!
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skanky
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by skanky on Oct 17, 2008 19:25:44 GMT 1, Is there not a live feed for this one ?
Is there not a live feed for this one ?
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funster
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Sotheby's Art Auctions β’ LONDON π¬π§, by funster on Oct 17, 2008 19:27:11 GMT 1, Session 1
1
- JOHN CURRIN
139,250
2 - ANTONY GORMLEY
193,250
3 - DAMIEN HIRST
115,250
6 - RASHID RANA
181,250
7 - SUBODH GUPTA
385,250
8 SUBODH GUPTA
313,250
9 RAVINDER REDDY
169,250
10 EL ANATSUI
349,250
11 - ANSELM REYLE
217,250
13 - FRED TOMASELLI
385,250
16 - JENNY SAVILLE
634,850
17 - GILBERT & GEORGE
241,250
Session 1
1
- JOHN CURRIN
139,250
2 - ANTONY GORMLEY
193,250
3 - DAMIEN HIRST
115,250
6 - RASHID RANA
181,250
7 - SUBODH GUPTA
385,250
8 SUBODH GUPTA
313,250
9 RAVINDER REDDY
169,250
10 EL ANATSUI
349,250
11 - ANSELM REYLE
217,250
13 - FRED TOMASELLI
385,250
16 - JENNY SAVILLE
634,850
17 - GILBERT & GEORGE
241,250
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