hlarmy
Junior Member
Posts • 3,199
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November 2007
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by hlarmy on Nov 13, 2009 18:19:00 GMT 1, Sure, but would you have consigned it to their November 2008 or June 2009 auctions? The market was as dead as a dodo.
Could it not have been a case of the buyer withholding it on the back of the failed sale until the market picked up, which it looks like it could well be doing now. This is all speculation I know; I'm more interested in the auction business side of things in general rather than what happened to this particular piece.
Out of interest, if the sale falls through a month or so after the date of the auction, what can the auction house do; would they simply return it to the consignor or can they try and sell it behind closed doors? I guess they wouldn't know who was the second highest bidder so probably difficult to do in theory.
Sure, but would you have consigned it to their November 2008 or June 2009 auctions? The market was as dead as a dodo.
Could it not have been a case of the buyer withholding it on the back of the failed sale until the market picked up, which it looks like it could well be doing now. This is all speculation I know; I'm more interested in the auction business side of things in general rather than what happened to this particular piece.
Out of interest, if the sale falls through a month or so after the date of the auction, what can the auction house do; would they simply return it to the consignor or can they try and sell it behind closed doors? I guess they wouldn't know who was the second highest bidder so probably difficult to do in theory.
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by Daniel Silk on Nov 13, 2009 18:27:14 GMT 1, Out of interest, if the sale falls through a month or so after the date of the auction, what can the auction house do; would they simply return it to the consignor or can they try and sell it behind closed doors? I guess they wouldn't know who was the second highest bidder so probably difficult to do in theory.
I should think at this level the auction house would know every single bidder, probably have a file on them with details of what artists they collect, the name of their pets, and always send them Birthday & Christmas cards
Out of interest, if the sale falls through a month or so after the date of the auction, what can the auction house do; would they simply return it to the consignor or can they try and sell it behind closed doors? I guess they wouldn't know who was the second highest bidder so probably difficult to do in theory. I should think at this level the auction house would know every single bidder, probably have a file on them with details of what artists they collect, the name of their pets, and always send them Birthday & Christmas cards
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lee3
New Member
Posts • 832
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November 2009
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by lee3 on Nov 13, 2009 18:44:16 GMT 1, Sure, but would you have put it their November 2008 or June 2009 auctions? The market was as dead as a dodo; could it not have been a case of the buyer withholding it on the back of the failed sale until the market picked up, which it looks like it could well be doing now. This is all speculation I know; I'm more interested in the auction business side of things in general rather than what happened to this particular piece. Out of interest, if the sale falls through a month or so after the date of the auction, what can the auction house do; would they simply return it to the consignor or can they try and sell it behind closed doors? I guess they wouldn't know who was the second highest bidder so probably difficult to do in theory.
imo, if the sale had fallen through, they would have put it up for sale in the Oct/Nov auctions. You have to keep in mind that those sales are consigned in late July and August and catalogs go to print in September which was well before the market broke. The market looked frothy up through the Hirst sale which I believe was mid October and then broke the very next day. In August '08 we had no idea about the severe correction that would take place during Q4 globally across all asset classes. I would be stunned to learn that Pdp sat on that work for 18 months with the sellers blessing if the June '08 hammer was never paid for. My guess is that it was paid for and that buyer is now filing a $150k+ tax loss (given that the seller is seeing around $310k from that sale last night). To your last point, Pdp absolutely would know the particulars of all bidders as you have to be registered with them to bid in person, over the phone or via an absentee bid.
Sure, but would you have put it their November 2008 or June 2009 auctions? The market was as dead as a dodo; could it not have been a case of the buyer withholding it on the back of the failed sale until the market picked up, which it looks like it could well be doing now. This is all speculation I know; I'm more interested in the auction business side of things in general rather than what happened to this particular piece. Out of interest, if the sale falls through a month or so after the date of the auction, what can the auction house do; would they simply return it to the consignor or can they try and sell it behind closed doors? I guess they wouldn't know who was the second highest bidder so probably difficult to do in theory. imo, if the sale had fallen through, they would have put it up for sale in the Oct/Nov auctions. You have to keep in mind that those sales are consigned in late July and August and catalogs go to print in September which was well before the market broke. The market looked frothy up through the Hirst sale which I believe was mid October and then broke the very next day. In August '08 we had no idea about the severe correction that would take place during Q4 globally across all asset classes. I would be stunned to learn that Pdp sat on that work for 18 months with the sellers blessing if the June '08 hammer was never paid for. My guess is that it was paid for and that buyer is now filing a $150k+ tax loss (given that the seller is seeing around $310k from that sale last night). To your last point, Pdp absolutely would know the particulars of all bidders as you have to be registered with them to bid in person, over the phone or via an absentee bid.
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by snausages on Nov 13, 2009 18:50:51 GMT 1, The NYT wasn't impressed by the Phillips auction, but it doesn't mention the Banksy piece. www.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/arts/design/13auction.html?_r=1&ref=arts 2 years ago, the headline would have been laughing all the way to the banksy, thank god we don't see that anymore. That article is kind of funny, they really took it to them. Why mention it's next to a carwash? It's also next to the highline, chelsea market and has a view of the Hudson. Personally speaking I like PdP the best of all the auction houses but would rank them third behind Christies and Soth. Would defintely put them in front of Bonhams and Bloomsbury at this point as far as contemporary art and design goes, but they lack the overall range of those houses.
Sure, but would you have consigned it to their November 2008 or June 2009 auctions? The market was as dead as a dodo. But it wasn't apparent that the market was Dead November 08 until about Oct 08 and these auctions are planned a few months out, so I doubt they held it back fall of 08. If they did hold it back it was probably for appearances, as to 'not to alarm anyone that someone would have backed out on such a great piece.'
I should think at this level the auction house would know every single bidder, probably have a file on them with details of what artists they collect, the name of their pets, and always send them Birthday & Christmas cards Mostly true although I'm not sure if they record all the paddle numbers that bid.
This is all speculation that the sale fell through anyway. One observation I've found about secondary market work is that once a piece makes it to auction, it becomes more likely that it will make it to auction again. I've seen several pieces by an artist come up again and again to auction but numerous other works never see the light of day.
The NYT wasn't impressed by the Phillips auction, but it doesn't mention the Banksy piece. www.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/arts/design/13auction.html?_r=1&ref=arts2 years ago, the headline would have been laughing all the way to the banksy, thank god we don't see that anymore. That article is kind of funny, they really took it to them. Why mention it's next to a carwash? It's also next to the highline, chelsea market and has a view of the Hudson. Personally speaking I like PdP the best of all the auction houses but would rank them third behind Christies and Soth. Would defintely put them in front of Bonhams and Bloomsbury at this point as far as contemporary art and design goes, but they lack the overall range of those houses. Sure, but would you have consigned it to their November 2008 or June 2009 auctions? The market was as dead as a dodo.But it wasn't apparent that the market was Dead November 08 until about Oct 08 and these auctions are planned a few months out, so I doubt they held it back fall of 08. If they did hold it back it was probably for appearances, as to 'not to alarm anyone that someone would have backed out on such a great piece.' I should think at this level the auction house would know every single bidder, probably have a file on them with details of what artists they collect, the name of their pets, and always send them Birthday & Christmas cardsMostly true although I'm not sure if they record all the paddle numbers that bid. This is all speculation that the sale fell through anyway. One observation I've found about secondary market work is that once a piece makes it to auction, it becomes more likely that it will make it to auction again. I've seen several pieces by an artist come up again and again to auction but numerous other works never see the light of day.
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hlarmy
Junior Member
Posts • 3,199
Likes • 64
November 2007
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by hlarmy on Nov 13, 2009 19:02:26 GMT 1, Fair points throughout ... my only query is how PDP know who bid what? I appreciate that they know who has registered to bid and perhaps which parties are interested, but surely they do not note down each bid as the lot progresses so that if the lot fails they know who was the 2nd, 3rd (etc) bidder?
Back to my original query; if someone has £250k to spend on a piece of art, the bidder is either a multi-millionaire or placing all his eggs in one basket. This suggests that the consignor has even had a big fall in the past year and needs the cash or can afford to lose a cheeky £100k on a piece of art and just wanted rid of it (it's not the prettiest canvas to hang on your wall . I find this interesting as I would have thought those spending this amount of cash on a Banksy is (or should be) in it for the long haul...
Cheers Lee
Fair points throughout ... my only query is how PDP know who bid what? I appreciate that they know who has registered to bid and perhaps which parties are interested, but surely they do not note down each bid as the lot progresses so that if the lot fails they know who was the 2nd, 3rd (etc) bidder? Back to my original query; if someone has £250k to spend on a piece of art, the bidder is either a multi-millionaire or placing all his eggs in one basket. This suggests that the consignor has even had a big fall in the past year and needs the cash or can afford to lose a cheeky £100k on a piece of art and just wanted rid of it (it's not the prettiest canvas to hang on your wall . I find this interesting as I would have thought those spending this amount of cash on a Banksy is (or should be) in it for the long haul... Cheers Lee
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lee3
New Member
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November 2009
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by lee3 on Nov 13, 2009 23:53:58 GMT 1, >>>Back to my original query; if someone has £250k to spend on a piece of art, the bidder is either a multi-millionaire or placing all his eggs in one basket. This suggests that the consignor has even had a big fall in the past year and needs the cash or can afford to lose a cheeky £100k on a piece of art and just wanted rid of it <<<
Yeah, who knows? To be fair, the tide rolled out real quick on all of us and anyone using leverage was exposed in rapid fashion no matter rich or poor. All it took was someone borrowing cash last year with the wrong collateral and they're finished. Or it could have been any one or combination of the "dreaded D's" (death/divorce/debt).
>>>Back to my original query; if someone has £250k to spend on a piece of art, the bidder is either a multi-millionaire or placing all his eggs in one basket. This suggests that the consignor has even had a big fall in the past year and needs the cash or can afford to lose a cheeky £100k on a piece of art and just wanted rid of it <<<
Yeah, who knows? To be fair, the tide rolled out real quick on all of us and anyone using leverage was exposed in rapid fashion no matter rich or poor. All it took was someone borrowing cash last year with the wrong collateral and they're finished. Or it could have been any one or combination of the "dreaded D's" (death/divorce/debt).
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tc
New Member
Posts • 55
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August 2009
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by tc on Apr 24, 2010 16:16:32 GMT 1, £45K including the BP and for a average piece IMO...
£45K including the BP and for a average piece IMO...
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nah
New Member
Posts • 822
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April 2009
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by nah on Apr 24, 2010 16:21:07 GMT 1, wow
wow
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by covertshadowops on Apr 24, 2010 18:02:45 GMT 1, forget that.... just sold those 2 boxes. 8500 on the hammer.
total price of £11K to buy all in.
BOOOOOMMMMM!!!!!! OS GEMEOS making records!
what are canvases worth now!?!?!?!!?!?!?
forget that.... just sold those 2 boxes. 8500 on the hammer.
total price of £11K to buy all in.
BOOOOOMMMMM!!!!!! OS GEMEOS making records!
what are canvases worth now!?!?!?!!?!?!?
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by walshy on Apr 24, 2010 18:45:57 GMT 1, great result on the boxes, looks like another 2 artists have passed me by
great result on the boxes, looks like another 2 artists have passed me by
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skanky
New Member
Posts • 887
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August 2007
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by skanky on Apr 24, 2010 19:14:05 GMT 1, Well deserved, this has been building for a while.
Well deserved, this has been building for a while.
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by walshy on Apr 24, 2010 19:18:52 GMT 1, I think it was a good choice to put them in this auction and not one with a urban art theme. Im sure it attracted different types of bidders
I think it was a good choice to put them in this auction and not one with a urban art theme. Im sure it attracted different types of bidders
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by snausages on Apr 24, 2010 21:07:32 GMT 1, Os Gemeos are great. But lets not get carried away. Pretty large canvases retailed at Deitch for 45k usd and up about a year ago. All in all that's about how much the consignor is going to take home after fees.
It's great news for the twins and will probably put a fire under their gallery shows to sell out more. But lets hope Gemeos' galleries don't use the lazarides concept of pricing, which is raise retail prices every day of a new auction record. That didn't really help things for Faile, Micallef etc.
Os Gemeos are great. But lets not get carried away. Pretty large canvases retailed at Deitch for 45k usd and up about a year ago. All in all that's about how much the consignor is going to take home after fees.
It's great news for the twins and will probably put a fire under their gallery shows to sell out more. But lets hope Gemeos' galleries don't use the lazarides concept of pricing, which is raise retail prices every day of a new auction record. That didn't really help things for Faile, Micallef etc.
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afroken
Junior Member
Posts • 1,018
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February 2009
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by afroken on Apr 24, 2010 21:20:26 GMT 1, 193 lots sold out of 438 in that sale. What an utter disaster, Os Gemeos aside. I see a very uncertain future for Phillips De Pury unfortunately.
193 lots sold out of 438 in that sale. What an utter disaster, Os Gemeos aside. I see a very uncertain future for Phillips De Pury unfortunately.
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tc
New Member
Posts • 55
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August 2009
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by tc on Apr 24, 2010 22:44:20 GMT 1, Agree with both snausages and afroken. Way too much in that auction. I think that had there been less the Os Gemeos may of done better... As far as pricing goes Deitch is running a good pricing policy and always has. If Kathy takes on the twins then i see no reason for it to change. The problem here is exactly what snausages pointed out. There is a reason why all 8 lots with Elms Lesters prov did not sell the other other night... Greed! Their artists have nowhere to go. They are so over sold and have no outlet for secondary consignment...It does not take a genius work out the maths...
Agree with both snausages and afroken. Way too much in that auction. I think that had there been less the Os Gemeos may of done better... As far as pricing goes Deitch is running a good pricing policy and always has. If Kathy takes on the twins then i see no reason for it to change. The problem here is exactly what snausages pointed out. There is a reason why all 8 lots with Elms Lesters prov did not sell the other other night... Greed! Their artists have nowhere to go. They are so over sold and have no outlet for secondary consignment...It does not take a genius work out the maths...
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by snausages on Apr 25, 2010 2:30:12 GMT 1, 193 lots sold out of 438 in that sale. What an utter disaster, Os Gemeos aside. I see a very uncertain future for Phillips De Pury unfortunately. Well, Phillips totally cleaned house at this auction: www.artinfo.com/news/story/34308/phillips-waves-a-white-glove-after-abrams-sale/ I think Phillips will be fine in the end but they are hot and cold.
The concept for this BRIC auction is interesting in theory but there's a lot of work targeted to an audience that may not be very familiar with it. They started these "theme" auctions recently but yeah I'm not sure it's a great idea.
I think they'll do much better with their upcoming contemporary and photography auctions.
EDIT After going through the BRIC auction results, a lot of unsold stuff but I don't think it looked that bad as what did sell, a lot of it topped estimates. Several items went way over estimates. Like the Komar and Melamid that went £500.000 over estimate.
193 lots sold out of 438 in that sale. What an utter disaster, Os Gemeos aside. I see a very uncertain future for Phillips De Pury unfortunately. Well, Phillips totally cleaned house at this auction: www.artinfo.com/news/story/34308/phillips-waves-a-white-glove-after-abrams-sale/I think Phillips will be fine in the end but they are hot and cold. The concept for this BRIC auction is interesting in theory but there's a lot of work targeted to an audience that may not be very familiar with it. They started these "theme" auctions recently but yeah I'm not sure it's a great idea. I think they'll do much better with their upcoming contemporary and photography auctions. EDIT After going through the BRIC auction results, a lot of unsold stuff but I don't think it looked that bad as what did sell, a lot of it topped estimates. Several items went way over estimates. Like the Komar and Melamid that went £500.000 over estimate.
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Rsyok
Junior Member
Posts • 3,374
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January 2008
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love
Junior Member
Posts • 1,649
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October 2009
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by love on Apr 26, 2010 15:04:17 GMT 1, Wish i had more $$$...
Wish i had more $$$...
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samo
Junior Member
Posts • 1,511
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October 2007
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by boaty on Apr 26, 2010 20:54:37 GMT 1, did that say 50,000 - 70,000? WOW!
did that say 50,000 - 70,000? WOW!
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Deleted
Posts • 0
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January 1970
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by Deleted on Apr 26, 2010 21:00:51 GMT 1, check the mcGee. prefer that one!
check the mcGee. prefer that one!
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Simococo
Junior Member
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April 2007
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by Simococo on Apr 27, 2010 17:00:10 GMT 1, it helps that their output is managed well and they only do one gallery show a year
it helps that their output is managed well and they only do one gallery show a year
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volvic
Junior Member
Posts • 1,779
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Member is Online
December 2008
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by volvic on Apr 27, 2010 18:15:13 GMT 1, is this mr brainwashes first real auction lot? in terms of large original works? this will be interesting, to be fair its not an awful piece i can imagine this doing quite well.
is this mr brainwashes first real auction lot? in terms of large original works? this will be interesting, to be fair its not an awful piece i can imagine this doing quite well.
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Prescription Art
Art Gallery
Junior Member
Posts • 3,145
Likes • 1,210
November 2007
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by Prescription Art on Apr 27, 2010 18:31:30 GMT 1, i can imagine this doing quite well.
Wouldn't be surprised if it gets bid up VERY high.... it's not as if Thierry is short of cash now. It's been submitted by him and i'd be surprised if it's not bought by him.
i can imagine this doing quite well. Wouldn't be surprised if it gets bid up VERY high.... it's not as if Thierry is short of cash now. It's been submitted by him and i'd be surprised if it's not bought by him.
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Deleted
Posts • 0
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January 1970
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by Deleted on Apr 27, 2010 18:34:27 GMT 1, Would be a smart move for him, everyone will be waiting to see how the market reacts to his work now the film is out in most country's.
Would be a smart move for him, everyone will be waiting to see how the market reacts to his work now the film is out in most country's.
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Deleted
Posts • 0
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January 1970
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by Deleted on Apr 27, 2010 18:42:57 GMT 1, ok i have a question....
Once an artist reaches a certain value, how quickly can this decline if he is out of favour. Or will people buy the work regardless in the hope they go back up to the heights they are now/at peak.
Sorry not very well put but hopefully someone understands what i mean.
ok i have a question....
Once an artist reaches a certain value, how quickly can this decline if he is out of favour. Or will people buy the work regardless in the hope they go back up to the heights they are now/at peak.
Sorry not very well put but hopefully someone understands what i mean.
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Simococo
Junior Member
Posts • 3,179
Likes • 388
April 2007
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by Simococo on Apr 28, 2010 11:01:19 GMT 1, it looks like a Nick Walker mood board. It will definitely go for big money, as far too many people are tied to this surreal experiment.
I also think that Micallef and Neate will find their way to normality in the not too distant future because they can both paint and they are actually career artists with talent.
Normality may not be 60k a pop but i dont think they will be eating beans out of a tin anytime soon. I actually like eating beans out of a tin.
it looks like a Nick Walker mood board. It will definitely go for big money, as far too many people are tied to this surreal experiment.
I also think that Micallef and Neate will find their way to normality in the not too distant future because they can both paint and they are actually career artists with talent.
Normality may not be 60k a pop but i dont think they will be eating beans out of a tin anytime soon. I actually like eating beans out of a tin.
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Phillips Art Auctions • New York, Hong Kong & London, by walshy on Apr 28, 2010 11:27:50 GMT 1, I actually like eating beans out of a tin.
for warm beans in a tin, place the open tin onto the hob of an electric oven when a student this saves on unwanted washing up
I actually like eating beans out of a tin. for warm beans in a tin, place the open tin onto the hob of an electric oven when a student this saves on unwanted washing up
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