I am having a deja vu, at least for the second time

I think that Londown01 refers to this thread in which there is already a lot of talk about these prints: urbanartassociation.com/thread/190014/free-painting-damien-hirst-mexico

Any help to give these a fair valuation from a third party would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks a lot, Londown!

I believe that butterfly is part of the series (skull, house, butterfly...) made by the public in Kiev, in 2009. They are not signed (only stamped by Hirst's studio) nor numbered, as they were being produced there and were virtually unlimited. This eagle was released by Hirst (we all know he probably didn't touch most of his production before signing it) for this show and was part of an edition of 500. Each piece is numbered and signed on the front, as well as being blind-stamped, etc. However, I will keep an eye on the results.

I saw some pieces with similar characteristics (although dedicated on the front or not numbered, etc., which reduce their value) being sold for around 9K - 20K on auctions in recent years. I know this is not the best time for the art market (and probably for Hirst's in particular), but his prices have gone up and down in time and that is part of his reputation as the "bad guy" of contemporary art. Do you think that asking for around 6.5/7K would be unfair for any of the parties, considering that I won't be paying a premium?

I want the price to be fair and I would prefer to sell it here, even if that means selling it cheaper, but I also don't want to give it away for free (have received some reasonable offers, but also some very low ones, closer to the value of Hirst's signed posters), as I am parting ways with this in order to fund some very expensive artistic processes of my own.

I literally don't have an opinion, don't comment on pricing very often. Just came across the lot and thought I'd share. 

Something that looks similar (don't know if the details all match) was just sold at Tate Ward: 


www.tateward.com/auction/lot/lot-152---damien-hirst-british-1965--butterfly-spin-2004/?lot=22096&so=0&st=hirst&sto=0&au=111&ef=&et=&ic=False&sd=1&pp=96&pn=1&g=1

Thanks, compound. I was talking in USD (so around £5k), but yes, if the market is that low I think it might be better to keep it for now.

Based on...?

Thank you for your feedback, Acme Thunderer . It is very unbiased and it does give me all the negative aspects I should consider to have in mind.

I have gotten a couple of offers in the 3K-4K USD range. But Wendero offered less than 3 USD as well, so the pricing is indeed very subjective.

And yes, I am sure many spin paintings can be bought for 5 USD (edit: as you stated in your original post). I don't know if many of those were done or signed by Hirst. The same can be said for most other artists that are sold in here. I wish the art market worked as you think it does. It would be wonderful for me.

About the image being friendly or not on a wall, I'm surprised at how many of you find a Vietnamese girl being burnt with napalm to be wall-friendly (it worries me), if that is what guides your collections.

Yet you reply with a nothing statement. Feel free to spread your wisdom. 

Thanks for your insightful thoughts about this item 🤔. If you have a differing opinion then we would like to hear them.

Maybe you think that something that was given away free and represents Mexico that no one previously discussed is worth thousands just because it has a signature. If you do, then please share your theory so we can have a good laugh.

I promised myself not to answer in a detailed way to Acme Thunderer because of two main reasons:
- I didn't want to play the used car salesman's role
- I didn't think he really believed most of the things he wrote, as almost all of them were easily rebatable

However, as this has become everything but a sales post and as he continues to ask for explanations, I will spend some time doing so.

Before getting into that, I want to thank Londown 01 . He clearly believes the asking price is high and, however, he is smart and honest enough to look for valid arguments to make his point (which include, as any intelligent criticism, contradictions like those auction results for similar items that, in a low market, hit results that are significantly higher than those suggested by others).

Now, let's get into it:



I can agree with this. The piece is quite new and it is not the best time to sell it. I am well aware of this, and I know that I would be getting more if I keep it for longer.



This answer has two parts:
- First of all, when I think about freebies, what comes to my mind are those items you normally sell: napkins, leaflets, etc. that are handed out at exhibitions, that are printed in the thousands and that become memoralia as time passes. Perhaps it is just my poor English (it is my third language). These were indeed given out for free, to people who answered a trivia properly. I don't think that makes them "freebies", as I feel this term is slightly derogatory. They are art pieces, just as the analogous pieces that were originally sold, either we like them or not (I personally don't like spin paintings that much, so we probably coincide in that judgement).
- Leaving aside my self-taught artist side, and talking as an economist, I think you are confusing price with value. These items didn't have a price beforehand. However, they did have value.



I guess unsigned pieces are selling well, then. Many collectors love rare items.



People can "specifically want" things that are not commercially released. In fact, most of the things I "specifically want" in my life aren't commercially released. What kind of argument is this?



I will also answer to this in three parts:
- We could argue Mexico is probably (and is increasingly becoming) a cultural capital of the world (one of them, obviously not the main one). This makes Mexican culture universal (or planetary, to be more fair with the intelligent life that might exist elsewhere).
- We could also argue that all culture is universal, which would make the above point unnecessary. Plenty of artworks that depict realities that are not those we live in can still be valid in our places. Do you need me to list some examples or you can think about some by yourself?
- Even if both previous points are not true, I think any serious Hirst collector or critique would know about the influence that Mexico has on his works. He has a studio in Mexico City and some pieces like "For the love of God" (one of his most important ones) are inspired by Mexican culture (in that case, by Mexica skull inserts). Such is the Jacarandas series. He has said himself that he feels more comfortable in Mexico than in the UK, because of the role death plays in Mexican culture. Mexican motifs are then also Hirst's motifs, and therefore reflect something about his work and not just something about the country.



I guess this is pretty subjective and I guess some people can like the image. I probably wouldn't hang some of the stuff you have in your collection and you probably wouldn't hang some of the stuff I have in mine. However, as I said, I don't find a Vietnamese girl being burnt with napalm to be wall-friendly, and in this specific case I do find it distressing to think about some people "liking" this image. However, I do understand the importance of the piece Banksy did, what he meant with it and therefore why some people have it hanged in their living rooms.



I guess this is also cultural. In Mexico Hirst is not as well known as in the Anglo-Saxon world, and neither is flipping such a common practice. These pieces couldn't be bought online; you had to be at the museum to get them. They were also given out with a very short notice: one day, the Jumex Museum announced that the first 500 to answer a trivia correctly were going to take one home on the next day (most people were surprised to be asked questions when they left the exhibition, as this was not widely communicated). I believe most of these spin paintings went to curious families who visited the museum early on that day and who managed to get the trivia right, but who probably weren't familiar with Hirst's market value, to be sincere.



We were three, actually, and we managed to get the trivia right on our way out. We visited the Museum 10 minutes after it opened on the day the contest took place. If you have no idea about the way these were handed out, why do you jump to conclusions so easily?



You are right about this. Hirst didn't post these pieces on his social media and, as I told you, the museum didn't make a big deal about the contest, so I believe that most people aren't even aware of their existence. I wouldn't take this forum as a reference, though. It has been quite empty lately and, judging by some comments, I start to understand why. I miss the good old days.



Last time I spoke with Snowden you still didn't have access to my inbox. Again, talking about things you don't know.



Again, this judgement is subjective. They are, objectively, also much more common (they were produced in the thousands). I do believe that some Hirst collectors would value rarity over your own aesthetic judgement.



I often feel bad for people who underestimate other's intelligence. It often says more about themselves than about the people they are talking to.



Thank you for your valuation. As I told you, I already have some offers above that ballpark.
About the "unsuspecting rich idiot", please refer to the answer to the previous point. I am sure many people would consider several bits of your collection to be overpriced and many wouldn't understand why some glicée prints are sold for thousands, if they can achieve something very similar using their Epson printers. Does that make you or me an unsuspecting idiot? I hope not.



I am quite sure you didn't mean it, but thank you.

This explains it all. I couldn't have expected anything deep from someone who operates like that.


Oh, it is clear you don't know me. I am a curious person, and would have loved a smart valuation that destroyed all my expectations if it taught me something. That was not what you brought here, and as I had never interacted with you before, I was surprised to be the recipient of your frustration.


It has not sold on this forum, yes. And it is not surprising, as not much is selling since it is so empty. I suspect people like you have contributed to that.

That is all from me in this dialogue with you, which is not such because you don't even show enough respect to read what the other has to say.

Have a good evening and try to get rid of that negative energy before going to sleep, so you can have sweet dreams.

Edit: BTW, those skulls you mention as being far superior and naturally more expensive were made by the public in Kiev and handed out for free. I guess they tick many of your boxes.