stjohn
New Member
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April 2007
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Banksy vs Parla @ Bonhams, by stjohn on Sept 23, 2009 14:02:01 GMT 1, Parla: unsold I think - bad placement.
Banksy: ยฃ46,800 inc premium.
Parla: unsold I think - bad placement.
Banksy: ยฃ46,800 inc premium.
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Banksy vs Parla @ Bonhams, by rosstierney on Sept 23, 2009 14:18:15 GMT 1, i'm gonna say ยฃ40-ยฃ45,000 for the banksy
;D
surely that parla will get snapped up behind the scenes?!?
i'm gonna say ยฃ40-ยฃ45,000 for the banksy ;D surely that parla will get snapped up behind the scenes?!? |
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Banksy vs Parla @ Bonhams, by snausages on Sept 23, 2009 15:00:35 GMT 1, Horrible auction but $76,000 usd for the Banksy, not bad. Just wondering where all of Elms clients (and all our exalting forum members) were? I'm guessing both of the Parlas could have been had for less than retail and still no sell?
Horrible auction but $76,000 usd for the Banksy, not bad. Just wondering where all of Elms clients (and all our exalting forum members) were? I'm guessing both of the Parlas could have been had for less than retail and still no sell?
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lee3
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November 2009
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Banksy vs Parla @ Bonhams, by lee3 on Sept 23, 2009 16:08:13 GMT 1, >>>surely that parla will get snapped up behind the scenes?!? <<<
I suspect it will too though it's not my bag. I still have a hard time understanding why they saved two of what I consider the better lots in the sale untill the end. I did ask the question a while ago and they replied that they were trying to go in chronological order with respect to date as much as possible which is something I've never heard of before. Regardless, those are pretty poor results (% of sales wise) compared to what the 2 primary houses have been getting as of late in contemporary sales. To be fair, much of the work in this sale would probably never make a contemorary sale at the larger houses. Even though that Richter was a bit atypical, I believe the results show the seller was wise to pull it from the sale.
I must say, I do love a cup of coffee and looking through photos of art and results as it just fascinates me and is always a good way to learn. Though there are more Calder watercolors or gouache than I can count, the one in this sale was nice and the buyer got a good price from my vantage point.
Time to look at the Christie's results...
>>>surely that parla will get snapped up behind the scenes?!? <<<
I suspect it will too though it's not my bag. I still have a hard time understanding why they saved two of what I consider the better lots in the sale untill the end. I did ask the question a while ago and they replied that they were trying to go in chronological order with respect to date as much as possible which is something I've never heard of before. Regardless, those are pretty poor results (% of sales wise) compared to what the 2 primary houses have been getting as of late in contemporary sales. To be fair, much of the work in this sale would probably never make a contemorary sale at the larger houses. Even though that Richter was a bit atypical, I believe the results show the seller was wise to pull it from the sale.
I must say, I do love a cup of coffee and looking through photos of art and results as it just fascinates me and is always a good way to learn. Though there are more Calder watercolors or gouache than I can count, the one in this sale was nice and the buyer got a good price from my vantage point.
Time to look at the Christie's results...
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Simococo
Junior Member
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April 2007
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Banksy vs Parla @ Bonhams, by Simococo on Sept 23, 2009 16:31:02 GMT 1, they must have chandaliered to 24k on the Parla
they must have chandaliered to 24k on the Parla
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lee3
New Member
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November 2009
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Banksy vs Parla @ Bonhams, by lee3 on Sept 23, 2009 16:43:35 GMT 1, A lot more fun looking at the work and results falling under the hammer right now at Christie's:
www.christies.com/LotFinder/searchresults.aspx?intSaleID=22138#action=refine&intSaleID=22138&sid=e9814286-9665-4a60-8dc2-665f9368895b&num=45
Harring did well, while tiny Basquiat drawings did not. Stunned that the Ruscha gunpowder drawing did not hammer. I was surprised to see someone consign a 22 inch Flowers to a September sale but it got the cover and did them well at $1.1m (doube the estimate) though down substantially from their highs- I would love one of those even the tiny 4 inch square ones. I thought the Gottlieb would do better too and Chamberlain scultpures selling at $12k? 12k? There are countless prints that exceed that price! Oh well, nice pick up for the buyer- obviously relative bargins compared to what we're used to from the past 5 years.
Sotheby's has the best concentration of work for this month to my eyes and their sale is tomorrow.
A lot more fun looking at the work and results falling under the hammer right now at Christie's: www.christies.com/LotFinder/searchresults.aspx?intSaleID=22138#action=refine&intSaleID=22138&sid=e9814286-9665-4a60-8dc2-665f9368895b&num=45Harring did well, while tiny Basquiat drawings did not. Stunned that the Ruscha gunpowder drawing did not hammer. I was surprised to see someone consign a 22 inch Flowers to a September sale but it got the cover and did them well at $1.1m (doube the estimate) though down substantially from their highs- I would love one of those even the tiny 4 inch square ones. I thought the Gottlieb would do better too and Chamberlain scultpures selling at $12k? 12k? There are countless prints that exceed that price! Oh well, nice pick up for the buyer- obviously relative bargins compared to what we're used to from the past 5 years. Sotheby's has the best concentration of work for this month to my eyes and their sale is tomorrow. |
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Banksy vs Parla @ Bonhams, by manty on Sept 23, 2009 18:49:26 GMT 1, they must have chandaliered to 24k on the Parla
I dont understand auction talk
What does the above mean? Was it what the bidding got upto?
I really liked the look of the Parla at this auction, though haven't been much of a lover up until this one.
and if someone were to buy outside the sale, I presume the auction house would want to take their usual sales commission ?
they must have chandaliered to 24k on the Parla I dont understand auction talk What does the above mean? Was it what the bidding got upto? I really liked the look of the Parla at this auction, though haven't been much of a lover up until this one. and if someone were to buy outside the sale, I presume the auction house would want to take their usual sales commission ? |
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Banksy vs Parla @ Bonhams, by snausages on Sept 23, 2009 18:57:07 GMT 1, Chandelier bids are fake bids placed by the auction house to get the price up to the reserve area.
And yes you can submit an offer after the sale, but the offer you submit will of course have auction fees added on top. You might try and low ball them, you never know if the seller will be desperate and dump it after he sees it failed to reach reserve or if they'll be spiteful that their masterpiece failed to sell and unwilling to negotiate?
Chandelier bids are fake bids placed by the auction house to get the price up to the reserve area.
And yes you can submit an offer after the sale, but the offer you submit will of course have auction fees added on top. You might try and low ball them, you never know if the seller will be desperate and dump it after he sees it failed to reach reserve or if they'll be spiteful that their masterpiece failed to sell and unwilling to negotiate?
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lee3
New Member
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November 2009
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Banksy vs Parla @ Bonhams, by lee3 on Sept 23, 2009 19:11:07 GMT 1, they must have chandaliered to 24k on the Parla I dont understand auction talk What does the above mean? Was it what the bidding got upto? I really liked the look of the Parla at this auction, though haven't been much of a lover up until this one. and if someone were to buy outside the sale, I presume the auction house would want to take their usual sales commission ?
A house may chandelier bid (false bids generated by the house itself to stimulate interest in a work) up the bid right below the reserve (the price the seller and house decide a work can be sold). The reserve price can never be higher than the low estimate but can and often is lower than the low estimate.
As to your second question, the answer is yes. A post auction sale is still subject to the house getting their cut. Most houses have 30 days to broker a sale. If you're a seller, you must accept your reserve price no matter what. The house can try and talk you down to accept a lower price than your reserve post sale.
Oddly enough, I've been in post sale bidding wars where the work of art ends up selling for more than the estimate range even in the past year. I've only ever sold two pieces so I'm of little use when it comes to selling. And this correction in the art market takes away the advantages sellers had previously. Gone are the days where a seller can tell the auction house to lower their commissions or fees as the houses are making significantly less than a year ago and are cutting back staffing.
they must have chandaliered to 24k on the Parla I dont understand auction talk What does the above mean? Was it what the bidding got upto? I really liked the look of the Parla at this auction, though haven't been much of a lover up until this one. and if someone were to buy outside the sale, I presume the auction house would want to take their usual sales commission ? A house may chandelier bid (false bids generated by the house itself to stimulate interest in a work) up the bid right below the reserve (the price the seller and house decide a work can be sold). The reserve price can never be higher than the low estimate but can and often is lower than the low estimate. As to your second question, the answer is yes. A post auction sale is still subject to the house getting their cut. Most houses have 30 days to broker a sale. If you're a seller, you must accept your reserve price no matter what. The house can try and talk you down to accept a lower price than your reserve post sale. Oddly enough, I've been in post sale bidding wars where the work of art ends up selling for more than the estimate range even in the past year. I've only ever sold two pieces so I'm of little use when it comes to selling. And this correction in the art market takes away the advantages sellers had previously. Gone are the days where a seller can tell the auction house to lower their commissions or fees as the houses are making significantly less than a year ago and are cutting back staffing. |
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skanky
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August 2007
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Banksy vs Parla @ Bonhams, by skanky on Sept 23, 2009 19:25:31 GMT 1, Not a good result for Parla but didnt really expect anything different. Bad time to sell and bad placement, many of our artists are going through major price corrections as the bubble has well and truly burst. That said I have no doubt that top quality work (which imo this is) will flourish, it has been too high a price increase over too short a time.
Not a good result for Parla but didnt really expect anything different. Bad time to sell and bad placement, many of our artists are going through major price corrections as the bubble has well and truly burst. That said I have no doubt that top quality work (which imo this is) will flourish, it has been too high a price increase over too short a time.
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Banksy vs Parla @ Bonhams, by howlinhooker on Sept 23, 2009 19:32:06 GMT 1, BANKSY 42K + PREMIUM....................PARLA 21K + PREMIUM 
BANKSY 42K + PREMIUM....................PARLA 21K + PREMIUM not a 2 bad guess |
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Simococo
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 3,183
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April 2007
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Banksy vs Parla @ Bonhams, by Simococo on Sept 24, 2009 3:58:29 GMT 1, Not a good result for Parla but didnt really expect anything different. Bad time to sell and bad placement, many of our artists are going through major price corrections as the bubble has well and truly burst. That said I have no doubt that top quality work (which imo this is) will flourish, it has been too high a price increase over too short a time.
agreed
Not a good result for Parla but didnt really expect anything different. Bad time to sell and bad placement, many of our artists are going through major price corrections as the bubble has well and truly burst. That said I have no doubt that top quality work (which imo this is) will flourish, it has been too high a price increase over too short a time. agreed |
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Banksy vs Parla @ Bonhams, by manty on Sept 24, 2009 20:40:49 GMT 1, I dont understand auction talk What does the above mean? Was it what the bidding got upto? I really liked the look of the Parla at this auction, though haven't been much of a lover up until this one. and if someone were to buy outside the sale, I presume the auction house would want to take their usual sales commission ? A house may chandelier bid (false bids generated by the house itself to stimulate interest in a work) up the bid right below the reserve (the price the seller and house decide a work can be sold). The reserve price can never be higher than the low estimate but can and often is lower than the low estimate. As to your second question, the answer is yes. A post auction sale is still subject to the house getting their cut. Most houses have 30 days to broker a sale. If you're a seller, you must accept your reserve price no matter what. The house can try and talk you down to accept a lower price than your reserve post sale. Oddly enough, I've been in post sale bidding wars where the work of art ends up selling for more than the estimate range even in the past year. I've only ever sold two pieces so I'm of little use when it comes to selling. And this correction in the art market takes away the advantages sellers had previously. Gone are the days where a seller can tell the auction house to lower their commissions or fees as the houses are making significantly less than a year ago and are cutting back staffing.
Thanks for the info, interesting
So if an item hasn't sold and the estimate was ยฃ5k to ยฃ10k, and someone post sale offers ยฃ5k the seller is legally bound to accept the offer, unless someone offers higher within the 30 day period?
From what you've said the key for the interested buyer is to try and work out what the reserve is, and put in that offer and hope no one counter offers
When putting in a post sale bid, is it a legally binding offer for the 30 days?
Are the auctioneers generally honest when it comes to post sale bid amounts if 2 or more buyers are involved ?
Is there a link or book available that explains more about the dubious things that auction houses get upto so I can get a better understanding
Thanks
I dont understand auction talk What does the above mean? Was it what the bidding got upto? I really liked the look of the Parla at this auction, though haven't been much of a lover up until this one. and if someone were to buy outside the sale, I presume the auction house would want to take their usual sales commission ? A house may chandelier bid (false bids generated by the house itself to stimulate interest in a work) up the bid right below the reserve (the price the seller and house decide a work can be sold). The reserve price can never be higher than the low estimate but can and often is lower than the low estimate. As to your second question, the answer is yes. A post auction sale is still subject to the house getting their cut. Most houses have 30 days to broker a sale. If you're a seller, you must accept your reserve price no matter what. The house can try and talk you down to accept a lower price than your reserve post sale. Oddly enough, I've been in post sale bidding wars where the work of art ends up selling for more than the estimate range even in the past year. I've only ever sold two pieces so I'm of little use when it comes to selling. And this correction in the art market takes away the advantages sellers had previously. Gone are the days where a seller can tell the auction house to lower their commissions or fees as the houses are making significantly less than a year ago and are cutting back staffing. Thanks for the info, interesting So if an item hasn't sold and the estimate was ยฃ5k to ยฃ10k, and someone post sale offers ยฃ5k the seller is legally bound to accept the offer, unless someone offers higher within the 30 day period? From what you've said the key for the interested buyer is to try and work out what the reserve is, and put in that offer and hope no one counter offers When putting in a post sale bid, is it a legally binding offer for the 30 days? Are the auctioneers generally honest when it comes to post sale bid amounts if 2 or more buyers are involved ? Is there a link or book available that explains more about the dubious things that auction houses get upto so I can get a better understanding Thanks |
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curiousgeorge
Junior Member
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March 2007
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lee3
New Member
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November 2009
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Banksy vs Parla @ Bonhams, by lee3 on Sept 24, 2009 23:12:28 GMT 1, >>>So if an item hasn't sold and the estimate was ยฃ5k to ยฃ10k, and someone post sale offers ยฃ5k the seller is legally bound to accept the offer, unless someone offers higher within the 30 day period?<<<
Correct, and often they won't even entertain other offers for more than a week anyway though they have the right to do so for 30 days (the actual time varies by house). If you've hit the reserve and there aren't other interested parties, you'll get the paperwork to buy within a week.
>>>From what you've said the key for the interested buyer is to try and work out what the reserve is, and put in that offer and hope no one counter offers<<<
Imho, the key to post sale transactions is to low ball bid and find out if you have a motivated seller or are bidding against anyone else. The auction house will tell you what the reserve if the lot passed at auction. Let's say there was a low estimate of 50k with a 40k reserve and it never hit the reserve. You would indicate interest and the house would tell you they can sell it to you for 40k. That's when it's time to bargain (the house wants you to pay as much as possible to maximize their revs and keep the seller happy) and might do well to offer 20k and see what they say? If they have bids above that, they'll tell you. If not they will tell you whether they get a higher bid later or if the seller accepts/declines your offer.
>>>When putting in a post sale bid, is it a legally binding offer for the 30 days?<<<
It's done verbally as opposed to written, so it's not legally binding. However, I wouldn't cancel a post sale offer if accepted because it will be the last time they deal with you.
>>>Are the auctioneers generally honest when it comes to post sale bid amounts if 2 or more buyers are involved ?<<<
The houses employ some of the most polite and knowledgable people you'll meet in this hobby; however, their job is to maximze sale prices and promote customer satisfaction and you can't lost sight of that fact.
A friend pointed out the following to me today with the recent practice of more art going up for sale wiht no reserve. I'm not a Nara fan myself but I can't imagine the seller is very pleased with the decision to go no reserve. Check out the estimates and the actual sales price:
www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?sale_number=N08568&live_lot_id=8
www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?sale_number=N08568&live_lot_id=6
Here are the full sale results for anyone interested:
www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotResultsDetailList.jsp?event_id=29384&sale_number=N08568
>>>So if an item hasn't sold and the estimate was ยฃ5k to ยฃ10k, and someone post sale offers ยฃ5k the seller is legally bound to accept the offer, unless someone offers higher within the 30 day period?<<< Correct, and often they won't even entertain other offers for more than a week anyway though they have the right to do so for 30 days (the actual time varies by house). If you've hit the reserve and there aren't other interested parties, you'll get the paperwork to buy within a week. >>>From what you've said the key for the interested buyer is to try and work out what the reserve is, and put in that offer and hope no one counter offers<<< Imho, the key to post sale transactions is to low ball bid and find out if you have a motivated seller or are bidding against anyone else. The auction house will tell you what the reserve if the lot passed at auction. Let's say there was a low estimate of 50k with a 40k reserve and it never hit the reserve. You would indicate interest and the house would tell you they can sell it to you for 40k. That's when it's time to bargain (the house wants you to pay as much as possible to maximize their revs and keep the seller happy) and might do well to offer 20k and see what they say? If they have bids above that, they'll tell you. If not they will tell you whether they get a higher bid later or if the seller accepts/declines your offer. >>>When putting in a post sale bid, is it a legally binding offer for the 30 days?<<< It's done verbally as opposed to written, so it's not legally binding. However, I wouldn't cancel a post sale offer if accepted because it will be the last time they deal with you. >>>Are the auctioneers generally honest when it comes to post sale bid amounts if 2 or more buyers are involved ?<<< The houses employ some of the most polite and knowledgable people you'll meet in this hobby; however, their job is to maximze sale prices and promote customer satisfaction and you can't lost sight of that fact. A friend pointed out the following to me today with the recent practice of more art going up for sale wiht no reserve. I'm not a Nara fan myself but I can't imagine the seller is very pleased with the decision to go no reserve. Check out the estimates and the actual sales price: www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?sale_number=N08568&live_lot_id=8www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?sale_number=N08568&live_lot_id=6Here are the full sale results for anyone interested: www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotResultsDetailList.jsp?event_id=29384&sale_number=N08568 |
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Banksy vs Parla @ Bonhams, by manty on Sept 25, 2009 0:08:33 GMT 1, Lee, Thank-you very much for the time spent replying to my questions, I really appreciate it.
The reason I asked if the post sale offer was binding is if its not and the seller of an auction item knew someone was interested could he/she not ask someone they know to put a higher offer in, like the shill bidding that happens at times on ebay.
I am going to read a few books to get a better understanding of the auction world, thanks for the suggestions CG
Ps I certainly wouldn't be out celebrating if i were the seller of the Nara
Lee, Thank-you very much for the time spent replying to my questions, I really appreciate it.
The reason I asked if the post sale offer was binding is if its not and the seller of an auction item knew someone was interested could he/she not ask someone they know to put a higher offer in, like the shill bidding that happens at times on ebay.
I am going to read a few books to get a better understanding of the auction world, thanks for the suggestions CG
Ps I certainly wouldn't be out celebrating if i were the seller of the Nara
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artstylee
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January 2008
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Banksy vs Parla @ Bonhams, by artstylee on Sept 27, 2009 4:52:41 GMT 1, has the auction still not occured yet. I want to see how close people were to the actual final bidding price.
has the auction still not occured yet. I want to see how close people were to the actual final bidding price.
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Banksy vs Parla @ Bonhams, by wizzy on Sept 27, 2009 8:57:53 GMT 1, has the auction still not occured yet. I want to see how close people were to the actual final bidding price.
It occured.
has the auction still not occured yet. I want to see how close people were to the actual final bidding price. It occured. |
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