etched
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,302
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February 2008
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Obama supports Israel murders, by etched on Dec 31, 2008 1:28:12 GMT 1, finally, someone with a clue. If its OK to discuss the politics behind the art, why is there a issue discussing the politics that influence the art..... Most of the prominent artists discussed on this forum have brought politics into there art...Banksy, Micallef, Parla, Shepard Fairey.....Blek
not forgetting FAILE - FIGHT VANITY - directly influenced and related to this matter. anybody who owns one will already know this. makes the print stand out as there is real meaning and effect
finally, someone with a clue. If its OK to discuss the politics behind the art, why is there a issue discussing the politics that influence the art..... Most of the prominent artists discussed on this forum have brought politics into there art...Banksy, Micallef, Parla, Shepard Fairey.....Blek not forgetting FAILE - FIGHT VANITY - directly influenced and related to this matter. anybody who owns one will already know this. makes the print stand out as there is real meaning and effect |
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Obama supports Israel murders, by alsbabar on Dec 31, 2008 1:32:50 GMT 1, 
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Obama supports Israel murders, by snakes on Dec 31, 2008 1:39:31 GMT 1, This conflict shares so many similarities with Ali G's Westside Massive with those from the East Staines Massive.
We all knows dat de "West side is da best"
This conflict shares so many similarities with Ali G's Westside Massive with those from the East Staines Massive. We all knows dat de "West side is da best" |
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Deleted
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Obama supports Israel murders, by Deleted on Dec 31, 2008 1:45:29 GMT 1,
;D ;D
;D ;D |
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Obama supports Israel murders, by snakes on Dec 31, 2008 1:49:06 GMT 1, 
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Obama supports Israel murders, by Deleted on Dec 31, 2008 1:50:36 GMT 1, Just out of interest have there been any (israely? / israelie? ) artists that have produced art that is in some way by image or answers raised within against there Governments actions to Palestine?
Just out of interest have there been any (israely? / israelie? ) artists that have produced art that is in some way by image or answers raised within against there Governments actions to Palestine?
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Obama supports Israel murders, by graeme501 on Dec 31, 2008 1:52:27 GMT 1, "The way i see it, they bomb buildings without a care as to who is inside it, if they have cause to believe a Hamas (which is a legitimate government) fighter is inside it"
this is just the same as firing missiles into israel, each side resorts to these tactics, one attacks and the other has to be seen to retaliate, and it goes back and forth
israel has more military power, but dont kid yourself that if it was the other way around things would be any different
"The way i see it, they bomb buildings without a care as to who is inside it, if they have cause to believe a Hamas (which is a legitimate government) fighter is inside it"
this is just the same as firing missiles into israel, each side resorts to these tactics, one attacks and the other has to be seen to retaliate, and it goes back and forth
israel has more military power, but dont kid yourself that if it was the other way around things would be any different
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Obama supports Israel murders, by snakes on Dec 31, 2008 1:53:38 GMT 1, 
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stickee
Artist
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,128
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June 2008
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Obama supports Israel murders, by stickee on Dec 31, 2008 1:58:34 GMT 1, It will be interesting to see/read Shepard Fairey's on this statement by OB Can you see one of Obs leading art shock troops coming out with anything that actually erodes his masters policies ? Change Hmmmm
StopโฆObama Time! Stopโฆ intolerance!
Tomorrow my illustration for Time Magazineโs โPerson of The Yearโ hits the newsstands. While Iโm very honored to be validated by a periodical that is nothing short of an American institution, the moment is bittersweet because Iโm very disappointed by Obamaโs appointment of Rick Warren to deliver his invocation during Obamaโs inaugural address. Rick Warren is against gay marriage and reproductive rights, and he does not believe in evolution (maybe he offers himself as proof of lack of evolution). I understand that Obama is trying to appeal to conservatives and evangelicals, but this move is symbolically a slap in the face to many people. Warren is not a uniter, but a dividerโฆ he is intolerant in many of his views. I still think Obama is the best choice for president, but I canโt condone Warrenโs involvement in Obamaโs inauguration, no matter how insignificant it is. While Iโm on the subject of gay marriage, I will be donating a chunk of the proceeds from an inauguration poster of Obama I was asked to create to the movement to overturn Prop 8. At first I was considering pulling my inauguration poster, but I think re-directing funds from it to put into a cause I care about is actually more constructive. Plus, I wouldnโt want withdrawing the image to come across as a blanket boycott of Obama. Iโm sure I will ultimately disagree with Obama about many things, but I think I will agree with him on more. I think it is important to speak oneโs mind, but also to not let the narcissism of petty differences sabotage our unity and progress.
-Shepard
It will be interesting to see/read Shepard Fairey's on this statement by OB Can you see one of Obs leading art shock troops coming out with anything that actually erodes his masters policies ? Change Hmmmm Tomorrow my illustration for Time Magazineโs โPerson of The Yearโ hits the newsstands. While Iโm very honored to be validated by a periodical that is nothing short of an American institution, the moment is bittersweet because Iโm very disappointed by Obamaโs appointment of Rick Warren to deliver his invocation during Obamaโs inaugural address. Rick Warren is against gay marriage and reproductive rights, and he does not believe in evolution (maybe he offers himself as proof of lack of evolution). I understand that Obama is trying to appeal to conservatives and evangelicals, but this move is symbolically a slap in the face to many people. Warren is not a uniter, but a dividerโฆ he is intolerant in many of his views. I still think Obama is the best choice for president, but I canโt condone Warrenโs involvement in Obamaโs inauguration, no matter how insignificant it is. While Iโm on the subject of gay marriage, I will be donating a chunk of the proceeds from an inauguration poster of Obama I was asked to create to the movement to overturn Prop 8. At first I was considering pulling my inauguration poster, but I think re-directing funds from it to put into a cause I care about is actually more constructive. Plus, I wouldnโt want withdrawing the image to come across as a blanket boycott of Obama. Iโm sure I will ultimately disagree with Obama about many things, but I think I will agree with him on more. I think it is important to speak oneโs mind, but also to not let the narcissism of petty differences sabotage our unity and progress. -Shepard |
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Obama supports Israel murders, by James Smith 77 on Dec 31, 2008 2:51:45 GMT 1,
I think you guys will like this movie. It's totally eye opening.
www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
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Obama supports Israel murders, by roberts1 on Dec 31, 2008 4:43:03 GMT 1, "When the intellectual history of this period is someday written, it will scarcely be believable" Noam Chomsky, Faithful Triangle, The United States, Israel and the Palestinians
Due to an incredible amount of disinformation I would just like to cover a few points.
There was no Hamas 20 years ago but there was still conflict why?
The roots of this conflict lie in the occupation which can be traced back to exactly 60 years ago, please take time to look up and find out about the village of Deir Yassin.
In fact the Islamist movements including Hamas or their muse the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt etc were courted by the likes of America and Israel as a counter weight to Arab Nationalism, against the likes of Nasser and the P.L.O. The old divide and rule trick, works every time.
Israel and America have since 1967 constantly promoted a rejectionist policy with regards to the peace process, please feel free and look up all the UN resolutions and motions voted on regarding this conflict and the same and often only two countries to object are the United States of America and Israel. I would also recommend reading Faithful Triangle probably the most definitive book on the relationship between America, Israel and the Palestinians by Professor Noam Chomsky.
Lets skip history for lack of time and space and run it from a few years back.
2005 Israel withdraw from Gaza in return they and American press and demand Palestinian elections, everyone including Hamas are surprised at the results. Fed up of the corrupt Fatah and their inability to deliver any improvement the people vote Hamas. Hamas embrace democratic politics winning by a sizable majority in what were fair and free elections. God bless democracy and God help the Palestinians as they chose the wrong party. Please see John Pilgers brilliant DVD the war on democracy for a great insight into the wonderful promotion of democracy by the land of the free.
Hamas offer an extremely long Hudna (truce) in a return for negotiation. Israel says no negotiating and start holding onto money that is due for the Palestinian Authority, Hamas say ok ok we will set up a coalition government and you can talk via president Abu Mazen (mahomood Abbas, Fatah) nope not good enough.
Fatah undermine Hamas and break with the unity government after Israel and the international community pressure and starve the Palestinians of money and aid. Hamas and Fatah relationship at an all time low (divide and rule, works every time). Israel and American supply weapons and money to the illegitimate PA, Abbas and Fatah. Hamas take over Gaza to prevent a coup by Fatah.
the next two years, the borders of Gaza close and the economic siege worsens. The Unemployment in Gaza rise's to %50, trucks which carry in goods, aid, fuel etc which in December of 2005 were entering Gaza at a rate of 535 a day are now averaging 14 a day. Power stations fail to work without fuel and spareparts, sewage is on the streets, Electricity is at best only available for 12 hours a day and hospitals equipment cannot be used and medicine runs out. Yet still Hamas agrees to a truce brokered by Mr Abbas via the Egyptians. In the 6 months of the truce, the siege of Gaza continues getting worse and worse, this is less of a circle of violence and more a downward spiral, this conflict does not go round and round it goes down and down.
The bombs dropped on Gaza are only a variation in Israel's method of killing Palestinians. In recent months they died mostly silent deaths, the elderly and sick especially, deprived of food, cancer treatments and other medicines by an Israeli blockade that targeted 1.5 million people, mostly refugees and children, caged into the Gaza Strip. The orders of Ehud Barak, the Israeli defence minister, to hold back medicine were just as lethal and illegal as those to send in the warplanes.
contrary to common belief or shall is say Israeli disinformation, the ceasefire ended on November the 5th, that great day where we all hoped for change. Israeli killed 5 Palestinians in a strike on Gaza, the next day the Rockets from Gaza started, this tit for tat carried us through to the end of the ceasefire.
Lets also not forget the 110 including women and children that were slaughtered by Israel last March in two days of attacks.
Let me also add that no rockets have been fired from the West back into Israel yet the demolitions, incursions, building of settlements and the violent deaths of some 60 Palestinian Civilians+ this year have continued unabated in fact Israel have been rewarded for its crimes with an upgrade on its European relationship.
And still Hamas offered again, don't take my word for it, even the Israelis admit it, to renew the ceasefire but alas they demanded a return to the 1967 borders (see UN resolution 242), opening of the borders and crossings and a stop to all incursions in the West Bank, too unreasonable obviously.
The Israelis having spent months preparing for this are now into mass propaganda mode, defending the indefensible with such Owellian doublespeak Joseph Stalin would be proud. In the last 8 years 19 people have died from the rockets fired from gaza, at the same time thousands of Palestinians have been killed or injured, thousands have lost their home to demolition or air attack or to make way for more settlements or that beautiful piece of concrete they call the wall, thousands are now diying unnessaseraly from lack of food and medicine.
1.4 million people are trapped, surrounded by barb wire and watch towers, they are caged in the most densely populated place on earth and are being bombed with no remorse. the figures at the moment stand at around 400-4, someone seems to hold all the cards. But alas blame the victims dear friend, of course its Hamas fault, those arabs only listen to violence, just like it was those pesky kaffas (black people) fault for the racist regime of apartied in South Africa.
I suppose the best way to put a marker on whats happening is to wonder if we were to wake up tomorrow and the news report read 400 Israelis dead to 4 Palestinians, what would we say, but alas it seems that their are two tiers of human life in this world and sadly one is completely expendable.
Lastly does any one really think this inhuman act of barbarity is going to stop or weaken Hamas, the history of this conflict provides us with the obvious answer.
Our (the West) silence is deafening, complicit in nature, the onus is on every one of us who cares for the future of our children to make sure our governments and the world know we do not support this war crime. As Mr Einstein once wrote "for evil to prevail, good people are to do nothing"
I will leave you with two quotes from our great Prime minister Gordon Brown.
"This is clearly inappropriate and unacceptable behaviour, as is now widely recognised,"
"I am deeply concerned by continuing missile strikes from Gaza on Israel and by Israel's response,"
I assume you agree that the first quote is a much stronger condemnation.... it actually relates to Jonathan Ross and Russell Brand, so it seems its deeply concerning but ok to kill your daughters just donโt leave anyone an answer message saying you f**ked them.
Please take time out to read this article by Robert Fisk I believe he hits the nail right on the head.
www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-why-bombing-ashkelon-is-the-most-tragic-irony-1216228.html
P.S.
All though it plays a part this has very little to do with religion, Zionism founders and most of its modern political players were and are non-religious Jews. and please spare the militant Islam card if it was anything to do with that Saudi Arabia would be arch enemy number one not chief recipient of American weapons and aid, as they are times above any other country in that region in terms of an extreme version of the faith of Islam
"When the intellectual history of this period is someday written, it will scarcely be believable" Noam Chomsky, Faithful Triangle, The United States, Israel and the PalestiniansDue to an incredible amount of disinformation I would just like to cover a few points. There was no Hamas 20 years ago but there was still conflict why? The roots of this conflict lie in the occupation which can be traced back to exactly 60 years ago, please take time to look up and find out about the village of Deir Yassin. In fact the Islamist movements including Hamas or their muse the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt etc were courted by the likes of America and Israel as a counter weight to Arab Nationalism, against the likes of Nasser and the P.L.O. The old divide and rule trick, works every time. Israel and America have since 1967 constantly promoted a rejectionist policy with regards to the peace process, please feel free and look up all the UN resolutions and motions voted on regarding this conflict and the same and often only two countries to object are the United States of America and Israel. I would also recommend reading Faithful Triangle probably the most definitive book on the relationship between America, Israel and the Palestinians by Professor Noam Chomsky. Lets skip history for lack of time and space and run it from a few years back. 2005 Israel withdraw from Gaza in return they and American press and demand Palestinian elections, everyone including Hamas are surprised at the results. Fed up of the corrupt Fatah and their inability to deliver any improvement the people vote Hamas. Hamas embrace democratic politics winning by a sizable majority in what were fair and free elections. God bless democracy and God help the Palestinians as they chose the wrong party. Please see John Pilgers brilliant DVD the war on democracy for a great insight into the wonderful promotion of democracy by the land of the free. Hamas offer an extremely long Hudna (truce) in a return for negotiation. Israel says no negotiating and start holding onto money that is due for the Palestinian Authority, Hamas say ok ok we will set up a coalition government and you can talk via president Abu Mazen (mahomood Abbas, Fatah) nope not good enough. Fatah undermine Hamas and break with the unity government after Israel and the international community pressure and starve the Palestinians of money and aid. Hamas and Fatah relationship at an all time low (divide and rule, works every time). Israel and American supply weapons and money to the illegitimate PA, Abbas and Fatah. Hamas take over Gaza to prevent a coup by Fatah. the next two years, the borders of Gaza close and the economic siege worsens. The Unemployment in Gaza rise's to %50, trucks which carry in goods, aid, fuel etc which in December of 2005 were entering Gaza at a rate of 535 a day are now averaging 14 a day. Power stations fail to work without fuel and spareparts, sewage is on the streets, Electricity is at best only available for 12 hours a day and hospitals equipment cannot be used and medicine runs out. Yet still Hamas agrees to a truce brokered by Mr Abbas via the Egyptians. In the 6 months of the truce, the siege of Gaza continues getting worse and worse, this is less of a circle of violence and more a downward spiral, this conflict does not go round and round it goes down and down. The bombs dropped on Gaza are only a variation in Israel's method of killing Palestinians. In recent months they died mostly silent deaths, the elderly and sick especially, deprived of food, cancer treatments and other medicines by an Israeli blockade that targeted 1.5 million people, mostly refugees and children, caged into the Gaza Strip. The orders of Ehud Barak, the Israeli defence minister, to hold back medicine were just as lethal and illegal as those to send in the warplanes. contrary to common belief or shall is say Israeli disinformation, the ceasefire ended on November the 5th, that great day where we all hoped for change. Israeli killed 5 Palestinians in a strike on Gaza, the next day the Rockets from Gaza started, this tit for tat carried us through to the end of the ceasefire. Lets also not forget the 110 including women and children that were slaughtered by Israel last March in two days of attacks. Let me also add that no rockets have been fired from the West back into Israel yet the demolitions, incursions, building of settlements and the violent deaths of some 60 Palestinian Civilians+ this year have continued unabated in fact Israel have been rewarded for its crimes with an upgrade on its European relationship. And still Hamas offered again, don't take my word for it, even the Israelis admit it, to renew the ceasefire but alas they demanded a return to the 1967 borders (see UN resolution 242), opening of the borders and crossings and a stop to all incursions in the West Bank, too unreasonable obviously. The Israelis having spent months preparing for this are now into mass propaganda mode, defending the indefensible with such Owellian doublespeak Joseph Stalin would be proud. In the last 8 years 19 people have died from the rockets fired from gaza, at the same time thousands of Palestinians have been killed or injured, thousands have lost their home to demolition or air attack or to make way for more settlements or that beautiful piece of concrete they call the wall, thousands are now diying unnessaseraly from lack of food and medicine. 1.4 million people are trapped, surrounded by barb wire and watch towers, they are caged in the most densely populated place on earth and are being bombed with no remorse. the figures at the moment stand at around 400-4, someone seems to hold all the cards. But alas blame the victims dear friend, of course its Hamas fault, those arabs only listen to violence, just like it was those pesky kaffas (black people) fault for the racist regime of apartied in South Africa. I suppose the best way to put a marker on whats happening is to wonder if we were to wake up tomorrow and the news report read 400 Israelis dead to 4 Palestinians, what would we say, but alas it seems that their are two tiers of human life in this world and sadly one is completely expendable. Lastly does any one really think this inhuman act of barbarity is going to stop or weaken Hamas, the history of this conflict provides us with the obvious answer. Our (the West) silence is deafening, complicit in nature, the onus is on every one of us who cares for the future of our children to make sure our governments and the world know we do not support this war crime. As Mr Einstein once wrote "for evil to prevail, good people are to do nothing" I will leave you with two quotes from our great Prime minister Gordon Brown. "This is clearly inappropriate and unacceptable behaviour, as is now widely recognised," "I am deeply concerned by continuing missile strikes from Gaza on Israel and by Israel's response," I assume you agree that the first quote is a much stronger condemnation.... it actually relates to Jonathan Ross and Russell Brand, so it seems its deeply concerning but ok to kill your daughters just donโt leave anyone an answer message saying you f**ked them. Please take time out to read this article by Robert Fisk I believe he hits the nail right on the head. www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-why-bombing-ashkelon-is-the-most-tragic-irony-1216228.htmlP.S. All though it plays a part this has very little to do with religion, Zionism founders and most of its modern political players were and are non-religious Jews. and please spare the militant Islam card if it was anything to do with that Saudi Arabia would be arch enemy number one not chief recipient of American weapons and aid, as they are times above any other country in that region in terms of an extreme version of the faith of Islam |
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Obama supports Israel murders, by roberts1 on Dec 31, 2008 5:13:27 GMT 1, Taken from an article by Robert Fisk writing in the Independent written before the latest chapter in the horror story that is Palestine.
Saturday, 27 December 2008
If reporting is, as I suspect, a record of mankind's folly, then the end of 2008 is proving my point.
Let's kick off with the man who is not going to change the Middle East, Barack Obama, who last week, with infinite predictability, became Time's "person of the year". But buried in a long and immensely tedious interview inside the magazine, Obama devotes just one sentence to the Arab-Israeli conflict: "And seeing if we can build on some of the progress, at least in conversation, that's been made around the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will be a priority."
What is this man talking about? "Building on progress?" What progress? On the verge of another civil war between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority, with Benjamin Netanyahu a contender for Israeli prime minister, with Israel's monstrous wall and its Jewish colonies still taking more Arab land, and Palestinians still firing rockets at Sderot, and Obama thinks there's "progress" to build on?
I suspect this nonsensical language comes from the mental mists of his future Secretary of State. "At least in conversation" is pure Hillary Clinton โ its meaning totally eludes me โ and the giveaway phrase about progress being made "around" the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is even weirder. Of course if Obama had talked about an end to Jewish settlement building on Arab land โ the only actual "building" that is going on in the conflict โ relations with Hamas as well as the Palestinian Authority, justice for both sides in the conflict, along with security for Palestinians as well as Israelis, then he might actually effect a little change.
Taken from an article by Robert Fisk writing in the Independent written before the latest chapter in the horror story that is Palestine.
Saturday, 27 December 2008
If reporting is, as I suspect, a record of mankind's folly, then the end of 2008 is proving my point.
Let's kick off with the man who is not going to change the Middle East, Barack Obama, who last week, with infinite predictability, became Time's "person of the year". But buried in a long and immensely tedious interview inside the magazine, Obama devotes just one sentence to the Arab-Israeli conflict: "And seeing if we can build on some of the progress, at least in conversation, that's been made around the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will be a priority."
What is this man talking about? "Building on progress?" What progress? On the verge of another civil war between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority, with Benjamin Netanyahu a contender for Israeli prime minister, with Israel's monstrous wall and its Jewish colonies still taking more Arab land, and Palestinians still firing rockets at Sderot, and Obama thinks there's "progress" to build on?
I suspect this nonsensical language comes from the mental mists of his future Secretary of State. "At least in conversation" is pure Hillary Clinton โ its meaning totally eludes me โ and the giveaway phrase about progress being made "around" the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is even weirder. Of course if Obama had talked about an end to Jewish settlement building on Arab land โ the only actual "building" that is going on in the conflict โ relations with Hamas as well as the Palestinian Authority, justice for both sides in the conflict, along with security for Palestinians as well as Israelis, then he might actually effect a little change.
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pfffffffffft
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,472
๐๐ป 1,017
July 2008
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Obama supports Israel murders, by pfffffffffft on Dec 31, 2008 6:20:55 GMT 1, Two points.
1. Obama is not yet the US president. If he disagrees with Bush, which I suspect he does, it is incredibly poor form to speak out against current US policy when it's the current president setting the policy. It complicates the issue and puts himself in a power struggle with a man that remains president for another 21 days.
2. It has been reported in the US, by a number of analysts, that because Obama is not yet President that Israel is attempting to carry out what they perceive as unfinished business as the israeli govt is quite confident that an Obama administration will not support Israels aggression compared to what is dished out by Hamas.
I am not suggesting that Obama will not be supportive of Israel, but it seems that the new president will not support the killings by israel that have been acceptable by prior administrations.
I am also in the minority of americans that feel that israel is far more often the aggressor and someone needs to reel them in.
The guy is not president yet, if he stood firmly behind current US policy then he would have already been vocal in supporting our current president's stance as well as the Israelis.
Two points.
1. Obama is not yet the US president. If he disagrees with Bush, which I suspect he does, it is incredibly poor form to speak out against current US policy when it's the current president setting the policy. It complicates the issue and puts himself in a power struggle with a man that remains president for another 21 days.
2. It has been reported in the US, by a number of analysts, that because Obama is not yet President that Israel is attempting to carry out what they perceive as unfinished business as the israeli govt is quite confident that an Obama administration will not support Israels aggression compared to what is dished out by Hamas.
I am not suggesting that Obama will not be supportive of Israel, but it seems that the new president will not support the killings by israel that have been acceptable by prior administrations.
I am also in the minority of americans that feel that israel is far more often the aggressor and someone needs to reel them in.
The guy is not president yet, if he stood firmly behind current US policy then he would have already been vocal in supporting our current president's stance as well as the Israelis.
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raiden
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 512
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April 2008
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Obama supports Israel murders, by raiden on Dec 31, 2008 6:29:00 GMT 1, Hey roberts1, thanks for both of your contributions...
First, I suspect for the second post that you made, Obama's quote reflects his close communication and briefings from Condi Rice, who has been nothing but delusional on the mid-East process, with Bush frequently trying to claim his record on Israel diplomacy as a triumph, instead of an abysmal failure - even more clear with this last week.
As for the initial post - lets put some breaks on blaming Obama for not saying anything at the moment...
Frankly, under any normal circumstance, if a US President elect interceded in foreign affairs contrary to the sitting President or went rogue with the official state department message, he would be roundly condemned by the US diplomatic core. The only difference in this case is Bush has effectively earned a stamp of "no-confidence," but unfortunately, this isn't a Parliamentary system, so that's a "vote of no confidence" in metaphor only.
Under US democracy, like it or not, Bush is our President till January 20th. From a standpoint of following the rule of law and practically speaking given Obama's need to maintain a good relationship with the existing CIA and diplomatic core apparatus, he should remain mum if his view diverges from the SITTING President.
Like it or not, these issues are not that easy as - "Its bad, so Obama should come out and condemn it." And I know, that isn't the most 'keeping it real' way of doing politics, but its the smart thing to do if Obama wants to accomplish anything.
Clearly, Obama is not a fan of neo-con foreign policy and will probably pursue an Israel policy slightly to the left of Bill Clinton's - which ultimately may not be what most opinions want, but does offer Progress.
We could, however, be surprise, especially given that Obama is committed to a major speech on foreign policy in the first 100 days to be delivered in a Muslim country.
Hey roberts1, thanks for both of your contributions...
First, I suspect for the second post that you made, Obama's quote reflects his close communication and briefings from Condi Rice, who has been nothing but delusional on the mid-East process, with Bush frequently trying to claim his record on Israel diplomacy as a triumph, instead of an abysmal failure - even more clear with this last week.
As for the initial post - lets put some breaks on blaming Obama for not saying anything at the moment...
Frankly, under any normal circumstance, if a US President elect interceded in foreign affairs contrary to the sitting President or went rogue with the official state department message, he would be roundly condemned by the US diplomatic core. The only difference in this case is Bush has effectively earned a stamp of "no-confidence," but unfortunately, this isn't a Parliamentary system, so that's a "vote of no confidence" in metaphor only.
Under US democracy, like it or not, Bush is our President till January 20th. From a standpoint of following the rule of law and practically speaking given Obama's need to maintain a good relationship with the existing CIA and diplomatic core apparatus, he should remain mum if his view diverges from the SITTING President.
Like it or not, these issues are not that easy as - "Its bad, so Obama should come out and condemn it." And I know, that isn't the most 'keeping it real' way of doing politics, but its the smart thing to do if Obama wants to accomplish anything.
Clearly, Obama is not a fan of neo-con foreign policy and will probably pursue an Israel policy slightly to the left of Bill Clinton's - which ultimately may not be what most opinions want, but does offer Progress.
We could, however, be surprise, especially given that Obama is committed to a major speech on foreign policy in the first 100 days to be delivered in a Muslim country.
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Obama supports Israel murders, by slowmo on Dec 31, 2008 11:38:33 GMT 1, "oppression that Banksy dislikes so much" -- ok i'll buy that. -- but you interpret these to 'literally' take sides between Isreal and Palestine? the top one.. i see this is pointing out an obvious fact. but not taking sides. second one is just damn funny. I look at the bottom one and think about modern airport security. not complex internation relations between countries and ethnic groups. iraq/afghanistan/russia/us-guantanmo/many african countries/ there is opression everywhere. how do these take sides on the issue of Isreal? sorry if i am missing something obvious. maybe bansky has made statements that lead the interpretation of these?
Well the top one represents the birth of christ, which was supposed to bring peace on earth. But if you stick a big wall in the way of making peace, then you can't have it can you? I would say the artist here blames whoever built this wall for getting in the way of peace.
The second depicts a border control guard treating the person crossing the border as an animal. Again a depiction of how the artist supposes the people in those uniforms feel about the people they are searching, you cant reason with an animal, but you can cage it.
Dorothy in the third, the lady who saved oz, well its weaker but again to me at least, it is suggesting that oppression gets in the way of peace and resolution.
However Daveart I agree with you, I dont think he has taken sides, rather he has used his reputation as a robin hood to raise awareness of the problem from a palestinian point of view who have not had the most positive of press over the last few decades. But from this art it would be natural to assume that if you backed this artist into a corner and forced them to give their opinion on who they support, it would be pro peace first, but eventually pro-palestine.
"oppression that Banksy dislikes so much" -- ok i'll buy that. -- but you interpret these to 'literally' take sides between Isreal and Palestine? the top one.. i see this is pointing out an obvious fact. but not taking sides. second one is just damn funny. I look at the bottom one and think about modern airport security. not complex internation relations between countries and ethnic groups. iraq/afghanistan/russia/us-guantanmo/many african countries/ there is opression everywhere. how do these take sides on the issue of Isreal? sorry if i am missing something obvious. maybe bansky has made statements that lead the interpretation of these? Well the top one represents the birth of christ, which was supposed to bring peace on earth. But if you stick a big wall in the way of making peace, then you can't have it can you? I would say the artist here blames whoever built this wall for getting in the way of peace. The second depicts a border control guard treating the person crossing the border as an animal. Again a depiction of how the artist supposes the people in those uniforms feel about the people they are searching, you cant reason with an animal, but you can cage it. Dorothy in the third, the lady who saved oz, well its weaker but again to me at least, it is suggesting that oppression gets in the way of peace and resolution. However Daveart I agree with you, I dont think he has taken sides, rather he has used his reputation as a robin hood to raise awareness of the problem from a palestinian point of view who have not had the most positive of press over the last few decades. But from this art it would be natural to assume that if you backed this artist into a corner and forced them to give their opinion on who they support, it would be pro peace first, but eventually pro-palestine. |
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Obama supports Israel murders, by slowmo on Dec 31, 2008 11:54:10 GMT 1, Roberts1, just playing devils advocate, but your damning of the west for border squeezing. I am not that well informed on the area, but doesn't gaza have a border with Egypt?
Its hard to buy divide and conquer as the arabs could support the palestine cause if they wanted to with medical, financial, food and fresh water and power supplies from the southern border, but they dont? Why? Are they not equally guilty of failing to supply aid as you have clearly shown Israel are?
Again this is no opinion, just I never hear about why arab nations do not send aid.
Roberts1, just playing devils advocate, but your damning of the west for border squeezing. I am not that well informed on the area, but doesn't gaza have a border with Egypt?
Its hard to buy divide and conquer as the arabs could support the palestine cause if they wanted to with medical, financial, food and fresh water and power supplies from the southern border, but they dont? Why? Are they not equally guilty of failing to supply aid as you have clearly shown Israel are?
Again this is no opinion, just I never hear about why arab nations do not send aid.
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Obama supports Israel murders, by Lord Lucas Roham on Dec 31, 2008 12:08:33 GMT 1, Hamas are the real problem in this situation.
Hamas are the real problem in this situation.
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Obama supports Israel murders, by roberts1 on Dec 31, 2008 12:25:33 GMT 1, Hello Slowmo
As I had limited time and space to cover this incredible complex issue I focused specificity on the west because they have lead policy in that region for the last hundred years with the main goal of securing the control and supply of its number one resource, and no its not Falafal. More importantly I am a member of it's community therefore it is my responsible to hold my leaders and governments who act in my name to account.
Let me be clear, the Arab governments are very different from the Arab people they claim to represent. Mostly lead by tin pot dictators or casino royale sheiks they are propped up by the west to benefit its interest and not the native population.
For example if Eqypt were to hold free and fair elections, it is more than likely the Muslim Brotherhood would be elected but alas we have the lovely Hosni Mubarak to silence dissent or nationalist interest, Egypt does not receive 2 billion a year in military aid from the US for nothing you know.
On Christmas Day Zipi Livni visited Egypt to brief the Egyptians on the forthcoming slaughter. Egypt has also maintained the closure of the border that has starved Gaza on behalf of Israel and will continue to do so until, public unrest or democracy finally threaten the strangle hold that he and his family have on the country. He also has a vested interest in the destruction of Hamas as he himself as earlier stated is battling his own Hamas in the form of the Muslim Brotherhood.
The same can roughly be applied unfortunately to most Arabs states, they are as complicit in this saga as any one else but please remember their orders come from their paymasters and not their population.
For further reading i suggest the book Brutal Friendship: West and the Arab Elite by Said K Aburish.
P.S.
Have a look into the rise and fall of Saddam Hussein to see this beautiful relationship in full cycle.
Hello Slowmo
As I had limited time and space to cover this incredible complex issue I focused specificity on the west because they have lead policy in that region for the last hundred years with the main goal of securing the control and supply of its number one resource, and no its not Falafal. More importantly I am a member of it's community therefore it is my responsible to hold my leaders and governments who act in my name to account.
Let me be clear, the Arab governments are very different from the Arab people they claim to represent. Mostly lead by tin pot dictators or casino royale sheiks they are propped up by the west to benefit its interest and not the native population.
For example if Eqypt were to hold free and fair elections, it is more than likely the Muslim Brotherhood would be elected but alas we have the lovely Hosni Mubarak to silence dissent or nationalist interest, Egypt does not receive 2 billion a year in military aid from the US for nothing you know.
On Christmas Day Zipi Livni visited Egypt to brief the Egyptians on the forthcoming slaughter. Egypt has also maintained the closure of the border that has starved Gaza on behalf of Israel and will continue to do so until, public unrest or democracy finally threaten the strangle hold that he and his family have on the country. He also has a vested interest in the destruction of Hamas as he himself as earlier stated is battling his own Hamas in the form of the Muslim Brotherhood.
The same can roughly be applied unfortunately to most Arabs states, they are as complicit in this saga as any one else but please remember their orders come from their paymasters and not their population.
For further reading i suggest the book Brutal Friendship: West and the Arab Elite by Said K Aburish.
P.S.
Have a look into the rise and fall of Saddam Hussein to see this beautiful relationship in full cycle.
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Obama supports Israel murders, by slowmo on Dec 31, 2008 12:40:54 GMT 1, Cheers Roberts1, I'll se if I can pick that book up. Massive black hole in knowledge in the arab side of things.
Cheers Roberts1, I'll se if I can pick that book up. Massive black hole in knowledge in the arab side of things.
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Obama supports Israel murders, by onemandown72 on Dec 31, 2008 12:53:02 GMT 1, I've found your commentary both insightful and considered, thank you Robert. I also like how you've introduced the Egyption angle. I'm also pretty pleased that I have been proved wrong with this thread and everybody who has posted has done so without inflamming a row.
On the subject of Egypt, I begun to learn a lot more in recent books I've read outlining the background of Al Qaeda and the muslim brotherhood. It is clear that all of the surrounding nations have incredibly vested interest in how the West Bank / Gaza conflict is managed, Syria, Iran, and notably Saudi. And, clearly as in all conflict, religion is a smokescreen
Are there any other books that you would recommend reading?
I've found your commentary both insightful and considered, thank you Robert. I also like how you've introduced the Egyption angle. I'm also pretty pleased that I have been proved wrong with this thread and everybody who has posted has done so without inflamming a row.
On the subject of Egypt, I begun to learn a lot more in recent books I've read outlining the background of Al Qaeda and the muslim brotherhood. It is clear that all of the surrounding nations have incredibly vested interest in how the West Bank / Gaza conflict is managed, Syria, Iran, and notably Saudi. And, clearly as in all conflict, religion is a smokescreen
Are there any other books that you would recommend reading?
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brun
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Obama supports Israel murders, by brun on Dec 31, 2008 14:45:18 GMT 1, why are hamas the problem ? because israel and USA dont like them ? as stated above they were democratically elected by the palestinian people . yet israel define them as terrorists .........
as noted obama's first visit on democratic candidate nomination was to the zionist conference , stating he will support israel .......and why ? arms , empire , terror, enslavement , poverty , he knows he has to play the game but nothing will change except we will have a more eloquent president .
why are hamas the problem ? because israel and USA dont like them ? as stated above they were democratically elected by the palestinian people . yet israel define them as terrorists .........
as noted obama's first visit on democratic candidate nomination was to the zionist conference , stating he will support israel .......and why ? arms , empire , terror, enslavement , poverty , he knows he has to play the game but nothing will change except we will have a more eloquent president .
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daveart
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Obama supports Israel murders, by daveart on Dec 31, 2008 14:58:50 GMT 1, "they were democratically elected by the palestinian people . yet israel define them as terrorists ........."
I dont pretend to know enough to comment on this directly. but .. should it be pointed out that Hamas/Palestine/other Arab countries have stated openly their desire to wipe isreal and its people off of the map. i have read the maps they use in their schools even recognize Isreal as existing. How else should Isreal interpret Hamas and others that have pledged to wipe them out.
"they were democratically elected by the palestinian people . yet israel define them as terrorists ........."
I dont pretend to know enough to comment on this directly. but .. should it be pointed out that Hamas/Palestine/other Arab countries have stated openly their desire to wipe isreal and its people off of the map. i have read the maps they use in their schools even recognize Isreal as existing. How else should Isreal interpret Hamas and others that have pledged to wipe them out.
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daveart
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Obama supports Israel murders, by daveart on Dec 31, 2008 15:18:15 GMT 1, Hey slowmo. seriously - you bring a depth to these pictures that I have never tried to explore and i appreciate your information. if you dont mind.. and maybe this should be in a PM as this thread has moved in a different direction.. but .. here goes as this is the information i really want is information on and about Banksy's work.
<...top one represents the birth of christ, which was supposed to bring peace on earth. But if you stick a big wall in the way of making peace, then you can't have it can you? I would say the artist here blames whoever built this wall for getting in the way of peace.>
the birth of christ story the people came with joy and love in their heart to celebrate. currently, the arab world has pledged to eradicate the area of Jews. so couldnt this also be a statement of if you cant come to this area with love in your heart for all people... then stay out. i truly believe if the arab world didnt pledge themselves to destroying isreal .. the mental and physical walls would come down and this painting would be unnecessary.
<The second depicts a border control guard treating the person crossing the border as an animal. Again a depiction of how the artist supposes the people in those uniforms feel about the people they are searching, you cant reason with an animal, but you can cage it.>
treating the person as an animal.. well thats interpreting deeper than i have gone. couldnt this just be a comment on how insane security is all over the world right now. old ladies and children frisked in airports. i take this as security is so out of control even animals will be documented and scrutinized. maybe i am looking for the 'funny' side of this instead of the deeper meaning. i agree if you interpret the animal as a human and allow yourself that then this is a much different picture.
<Dorothy in the third, the lady who saved oz, well its weaker but again to me at least, it is suggesting that oppression gets in the way of peace and resolution.>
i think of the long lines at airports and national parks where some heavily armored men are searching a single moms backpack while her dog and child wait in the heat for the right to pay good money to get into some crappy amusement area. if we degrade society to the point of searching dorothy ... who in the world do we trust!? it never ends. i view this as a comment on the lack of trust in our common society members. but .. really.. you cant look of this and think 'middle east conflict' but i see how you can lay it over the middle east conflict and comment on security and power.
sorry for the long post. turns out i would completely be in favor of a section where people post bansky pictures and people from around the world give their interpretations. i am sure LITTA would get some interesting responses.
Thank you all.
peace and best of luck in 2009
Hey slowmo. seriously - you bring a depth to these pictures that I have never tried to explore and i appreciate your information. if you dont mind.. and maybe this should be in a PM as this thread has moved in a different direction.. but .. here goes as this is the information i really want is information on and about Banksy's work.
<...top one represents the birth of christ, which was supposed to bring peace on earth. But if you stick a big wall in the way of making peace, then you can't have it can you? I would say the artist here blames whoever built this wall for getting in the way of peace.>
the birth of christ story the people came with joy and love in their heart to celebrate. currently, the arab world has pledged to eradicate the area of Jews. so couldnt this also be a statement of if you cant come to this area with love in your heart for all people... then stay out. i truly believe if the arab world didnt pledge themselves to destroying isreal .. the mental and physical walls would come down and this painting would be unnecessary.
<The second depicts a border control guard treating the person crossing the border as an animal. Again a depiction of how the artist supposes the people in those uniforms feel about the people they are searching, you cant reason with an animal, but you can cage it.>
treating the person as an animal.. well thats interpreting deeper than i have gone. couldnt this just be a comment on how insane security is all over the world right now. old ladies and children frisked in airports. i take this as security is so out of control even animals will be documented and scrutinized. maybe i am looking for the 'funny' side of this instead of the deeper meaning. i agree if you interpret the animal as a human and allow yourself that then this is a much different picture.
<Dorothy in the third, the lady who saved oz, well its weaker but again to me at least, it is suggesting that oppression gets in the way of peace and resolution.>
i think of the long lines at airports and national parks where some heavily armored men are searching a single moms backpack while her dog and child wait in the heat for the right to pay good money to get into some crappy amusement area. if we degrade society to the point of searching dorothy ... who in the world do we trust!? it never ends. i view this as a comment on the lack of trust in our common society members. but .. really.. you cant look of this and think 'middle east conflict' but i see how you can lay it over the middle east conflict and comment on security and power.
sorry for the long post. turns out i would completely be in favor of a section where people post bansky pictures and people from around the world give their interpretations. i am sure LITTA would get some interesting responses.
Thank you all.
peace and best of luck in 2009
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Obama supports Israel murders, by roberts1 on Dec 31, 2008 15:28:06 GMT 1, "they were democratically elected by the palestinian people . yet israel define them as terrorists ........." I dont pretend to know enough to comment on this directly. but .. should it be pointed out that Hamas/Palestine/other Arab countries have stated openly their desire to wipe isreal and its people off of the map. i have read the maps they use in their schools even recognize Isreal as existing. How else should Isreal interpret Hamas and others that have pledged to wipe them out.
If you don't pretend to know enough then I would recommend a little further research before making such a misinformed statement. As stated before Hamas has constantly bent over backwards begging for negotiation and it is Israel that has time after time refused.
The starting point of any negotiation is for Israel to halt settlement activity and withdraw to the 1967 Borders (Please Read up on UN resolution 242) Hamas are on record as wanting this and it is Israel that refuses. Please remember that this is 19% of what was former Palestine and that Israel is only 60 year old and Hamas just over 20.
I have no idea what maps you are referring to but for the Palestinians there is no reason to conjure up mythical maps as the UN and international maps over the years representing Palestine/Israel are more than adequate to tell there story.
My friend, wipe Israel off the map are you serious, Hamas maybe brazen but there not stupid and if you look at the last few years they have tried endlessly to be involved in any political dialogue, let me be clear Hamas recognizes Israel's right to resist because quite frankly it has no other option, Israel on the other hand is the one that refuse to recognizes the rights of the Palestinians (refer to all the broken UN resolutions on this matter) and they are on record in both word and action as stating that they want to crush Hamas and wipe them off the map.
Again, Blame the victims, its been the in thing for the last 50 odd years, incredibly Orwellian don't you know.
Northern Ireland and various other historic and political situations can provide us with good examples of what can work and what cannot. One lesson we should all learn is that in any peace process, you negotiate not with your friends but your enemy.
P.S.
Regarding the Arab countries wanting to wipe Israel of the map, No Arab country has any chance and they all know it even if they all ganged up together (it would only be Iran and Syria) it would be tantamount to suicide, I stand corrected with regards to Iran please see Guy Denning's post, merci Mr Denning.
Do I have to remind you that Israel are on record as threatening to nuke Iran (Israel have over around 200 nuclear warheads illegal under international law), they have recently illegally attacked inside Syria's border, Bombed Lebanon back to the stone age in 2006 and continue unabated their repression and onslaught of the people in Palestine.
I have also forgot to mention in my previous posts the plight of thousands of Palestinian prisoners including around 30/40 legally elected Hamas MP's languishing in Israeli jails.
"they were democratically elected by the palestinian people . yet israel define them as terrorists ........." I dont pretend to know enough to comment on this directly. but .. should it be pointed out that Hamas/Palestine/other Arab countries have stated openly their desire to wipe isreal and its people off of the map. i have read the maps they use in their schools even recognize Isreal as existing. How else should Isreal interpret Hamas and others that have pledged to wipe them out. If you don't pretend to know enough then I would recommend a little further research before making such a misinformed statement. As stated before Hamas has constantly bent over backwards begging for negotiation and it is Israel that has time after time refused. The starting point of any negotiation is for Israel to halt settlement activity and withdraw to the 1967 Borders (Please Read up on UN resolution 242) Hamas are on record as wanting this and it is Israel that refuses. Please remember that this is 19% of what was former Palestine and that Israel is only 60 year old and Hamas just over 20. I have no idea what maps you are referring to but for the Palestinians there is no reason to conjure up mythical maps as the UN and international maps over the years representing Palestine/Israel are more than adequate to tell there story. My friend, wipe Israel off the map are you serious, Hamas maybe brazen but there not stupid and if you look at the last few years they have tried endlessly to be involved in any political dialogue, let me be clear Hamas recognizes Israel's right to resist because quite frankly it has no other option, Israel on the other hand is the one that refuse to recognizes the rights of the Palestinians (refer to all the broken UN resolutions on this matter) and they are on record in both word and action as stating that they want to crush Hamas and wipe them off the map. Again, Blame the victims, its been the in thing for the last 50 odd years, incredibly Orwellian don't you know. Northern Ireland and various other historic and political situations can provide us with good examples of what can work and what cannot. One lesson we should all learn is that in any peace process, you negotiate not with your friends but your enemy. P.S. Regarding the Arab countries wanting to wipe Israel of the map, No Arab country has any chance and they all know it even if they all ganged up together (it would only be Iran and Syria) it would be tantamount to suicide, I stand corrected with regards to Iran please see Guy Denning's post, merci Mr Denning. Do I have to remind you that Israel are on record as threatening to nuke Iran (Israel have over around 200 nuclear warheads illegal under international law), they have recently illegally attacked inside Syria's border, Bombed Lebanon back to the stone age in 2006 and continue unabated their repression and onslaught of the people in Palestine. I have also forgot to mention in my previous posts the plight of thousands of Palestinian prisoners including around 30/40 legally elected Hamas MP's languishing in Israeli jails. |
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brun
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December 2007
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Obama supports Israel murders, by brun on Dec 31, 2008 15:41:50 GMT 1,
israel have been the aggressors in this area since the creation of israel in 1948 attacking palestinian territory / egypt /syria and lebanon as well as iraq and soon to be iran !
if a agressor was attacking your house , you would defend it right ? its all these people have and the israelis dont like hamas so they bomb them to submission ......
the israelis use live ammuntion on stone throwing palestinian youths as the british did in ireland , so the british stopped after the bombs of the IRA , but the israelis keep going they dont know want to negotiate ............
I dont pretend to know enough to comment on this directly. but .. should it be pointed out that Hamas/Palestine/other Arab countries have stated openly their desire to wipe isreal and its people off of the map. i have read the maps they use in their schools even recognize Isreal as existing. How else should Isreal interpret Hamas and others that have pledged to wipe them out. [/quote]
israel have been the aggressors in this area since the creation of israel in 1948 attacking palestinian territory / egypt /syria and lebanon as well as iraq and soon to be iran !
if a agressor was attacking your house , you would defend it right ? its all these people have and the israelis dont like hamas so they bomb them to submission ......
the israelis use live ammuntion on stone throwing palestinian youths as the british did in ireland , so the british stopped after the bombs of the IRA , but the israelis keep going they dont know want to negotiate ............
I dont pretend to know enough to comment on this directly. but .. should it be pointed out that Hamas/Palestine/other Arab countries have stated openly their desire to wipe isreal and its people off of the map. i have read the maps they use in their schools even recognize Isreal as existing. How else should Isreal interpret Hamas and others that have pledged to wipe them out. [/quote]
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Guy Denning
Artist
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July 2007
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Obama supports Israel murders, by Guy Denning on Dec 31, 2008 16:11:59 GMT 1, but .. should it be pointed out that Hamas/Palestine/other Arab countries have stated openly their desire to wipe isreal and its people off of the map. i have read the maps they use in their schools even recognize Isreal as existing. How else should Isreal interpret Hamas and others that have pledged to wipe them out.
I'll never be a defender of any government, but what I will take to task is our craven media's deliberate collusion in maintaining an imagined enemy. Ahmadinejad was quoting the Ayatollah Khomeini when he said that "the occupation regime over Jerusalem should vanish from the page of time." a subtle but significant difference from the oft-quoted and erroneous western translation of "wipe Israel off the map"
As well as Chomsky, Fisk and Pilger I would suggest additional reading on this increasingly complex subject could be found at:
www.counterpunch.org/
warincontext.org/
And most importantly, if you're after a quick overview of why we are where we are regarding Palestine there is this excellent online source:
www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/toc-pal-isr-primer.html
We are a generation that is extremely fortunate in not having to rely on a limited and rigidly controlled news media. By all means watch the BBC, CNN and Fox. Read the Guardian, New Statesman, Telegraph, NY Times - but never assume that one you're consuming is anything but prepared, spun and sanctioned as safe for the extended control of the great unwashed.
Dig around online, read between the lines and take control of the incessant crap we're being fed by those in charge.
but .. should it be pointed out that Hamas/Palestine/other Arab countries have stated openly their desire to wipe isreal and its people off of the map. i have read the maps they use in their schools even recognize Isreal as existing. How else should Isreal interpret Hamas and others that have pledged to wipe them out. I'll never be a defender of any government, but what I will take to task is our craven media's deliberate collusion in maintaining an imagined enemy. Ahmadinejad was quoting the Ayatollah Khomeini when he said that "the occupation regime over Jerusalem should vanish from the page of time." a subtle but significant difference from the oft-quoted and erroneous western translation of "wipe Israel off the map" As well as Chomsky, Fisk and Pilger I would suggest additional reading on this increasingly complex subject could be found at: www.counterpunch.org/warincontext.org/And most importantly, if you're after a quick overview of why we are where we are regarding Palestine there is this excellent online source: www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/toc-pal-isr-primer.htmlWe are a generation that is extremely fortunate in not having to rely on a limited and rigidly controlled news media. By all means watch the BBC, CNN and Fox. Read the Guardian, New Statesman, Telegraph, NY Times - but never assume that one you're consuming is anything but prepared, spun and sanctioned as safe for the extended control of the great unwashed. Dig around online, read between the lines and take control of the incessant crap we're being fed by those in charge. |
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daveart
New Member
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February 2008
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Obama supports Israel murders, by daveart on Dec 31, 2008 16:24:26 GMT 1, <If you don't pretend to know enough then I would recommend a little further research before making such a misinformed statement.>
ok Roberts1 .. you know more than me i am sure. i give. you win. but my parting shot and last non art comment on this thread.. is that it took less than 30seconds on bbc to find this quote:
headline - Hamas resists Israel recognition
story quote: "They believe that future generations of Palestinians will reclaim all their historic homeland. And that, in the end, there will be no room for what is now the Jewish state of Israel, our correspondent says."
if you need verification..
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5122822.stm
so my 30 seconds of research substantiate my oversimplified 'wipe them off the map' comment. sorry for my over simplification. but .. this is an art forum .. not a political science think tank.
anyway.. joy & peace to all of you in the new year. definitely some smart people on this forum.
<If you don't pretend to know enough then I would recommend a little further research before making such a misinformed statement.> ok Roberts1 .. you know more than me i am sure. i give. you win. but my parting shot and last non art comment on this thread.. is that it took less than 30seconds on bbc to find this quote: headline - Hamas resists Israel recognition story quote: "They believe that future generations of Palestinians will reclaim all their historic homeland. And that, in the end, there will be no room for what is now the Jewish state of Israel, our correspondent says." if you need verification.. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5122822.stmso my 30 seconds of research substantiate my oversimplified 'wipe them off the map' comment. sorry for my over simplification. but .. this is an art forum .. not a political science think tank. anyway.. joy & peace to all of you in the new year. definitely some smart people on this forum. |
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Obama supports Israel murders, by roberts1 on Dec 31, 2008 19:56:56 GMT 1, Hello Daveart
I second what Mr Denning says with regards to reading as many articles as you can but always question what you read, who is telling you and what are there interest's. With regards to what you have shown me you have only a headline and a quote from a correspondent not a source. In the article though there is the following quote:
"However, a Hamas member who helped negotiate the agreement, Ziyad Dayeh, said Hamas support for a two-state solution was nothing new for Hamas.
"When talking about a Palestinian state in the occupied territories of 1967, it means there would be another state on the other part of Palestine. It means, yes, practically, a two-state solution, and it's not a new thing - it has been offered by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin before," he said." BBC
(the disabled Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, spiritual leader of Hamas, was a victim of an air strike, Israels "target assassinations" along with two bodyguards and one of his sons early in 2004)
Please understand I am not cleverer than you, nor do i wish to "win" merely I hope to provide information and fact to counter the libelous untruths that try to sugar coat death.
Question everything my friend, by course there will be holes in what I have written, mistakes that I may or may not uncover. On both sides there will be opinion but there is no denying the existence of truth, a realty we must try to seek out. Sharpen the mind to cut through opinion to get to fact, the reality of an unmistakable truth.
Salaam, Shalom, Peace
Hello Daveart
I second what Mr Denning says with regards to reading as many articles as you can but always question what you read, who is telling you and what are there interest's. With regards to what you have shown me you have only a headline and a quote from a correspondent not a source. In the article though there is the following quote:
"However, a Hamas member who helped negotiate the agreement, Ziyad Dayeh, said Hamas support for a two-state solution was nothing new for Hamas.
"When talking about a Palestinian state in the occupied territories of 1967, it means there would be another state on the other part of Palestine. It means, yes, practically, a two-state solution, and it's not a new thing - it has been offered by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin before," he said." BBC
(the disabled Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, spiritual leader of Hamas, was a victim of an air strike, Israels "target assassinations" along with two bodyguards and one of his sons early in 2004)
Please understand I am not cleverer than you, nor do i wish to "win" merely I hope to provide information and fact to counter the libelous untruths that try to sugar coat death.
Question everything my friend, by course there will be holes in what I have written, mistakes that I may or may not uncover. On both sides there will be opinion but there is no denying the existence of truth, a realty we must try to seek out. Sharpen the mind to cut through opinion to get to fact, the reality of an unmistakable truth.
Salaam, Shalom, Peace
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Obama supports Israel murders, by dill on Dec 31, 2008 19:57:34 GMT 1, while the palestinians throw stones , the israelis retaliate with live ammo on kids ! when the palestinians fire a rocket and kill one , the israelis flatten a city and kill 350 ...........its not really fair since the land belongs to palestine in the first place and the zionists just took it for themselves !
I am not sure that is correct, i thought it was originally part of the ottoman empire, before becoming a British mandated territory.
while the palestinians throw stones , the israelis retaliate with live ammo on kids ! when the palestinians fire a rocket and kill one , the israelis flatten a city and kill 350 ...........its not really fair since the land belongs to palestine in the first place and the zionists just took it for themselves ! I am not sure that is correct, i thought it was originally part of the ottoman empire, before becoming a British mandated territory. |
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