Here is a short podcast I heard the other day. It gives a small insight into the views of 4 Palestinians from around the world and what the loss of their homes and land means to them.

Its well worth a listen if you have 20 mins.:-

There are more than 10 million Palestinians living around the world, more than half of whom are stateless.

In this year [2008] when Israel has been marking its 60th anniversary many Palestinians have been reflecting on the event that for them meant exile.

The 'naqba', or catastrophe, is how they describe the destruction of many of their villages and towns and their own dispersal following the creation of the state of Israel in 1948.

In this Assignment programme Paul Adams speaks to four Palestinians in exile.


www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/worldservice/meta/dps/2008/12/081217_palestinians?size=au&bgc=003399&lang=en-ws&nbram=1&nbwm=1&bbram=1&bbwm=1

Its unbelievable to think that many of these refugees still have the housekeys to their homes from 60 years ago.

wam!

In Response to the Above:


Iran, A Nation Interrupted


Firstly let me state unequivocally that I am no fan of Mr Ahmadinejad or Iran’s unelected clerics and their backward policies. I am a supporter of the reformist movement in Iran and their struggle to win freedoms every human justly deserves. But we cannot talk about Ahmadinejad without talking about the realities on the ground that enabled him to be democratically elected as president.

A shortened simplification of Barack Obama’s historic Whitehouse win could be attributed to the last disastrous 8 years of George W Bush, for without those long and hard years I very much doubt the US would have opted for a black left of field candidate who came from nowhere to beat those two political institutions known as Clinton and McCain.

The story of how Ahmadinejad came to power is one that needs to be examined and looked at for it contradicts in many ways the force-fed "official" story. A tale hidden from view, a truth that was always yet in the minds of many never. So I apologies in advance for going into great depths and boring many of you but it is important to understand if we are ever to learn not to make the same mistakes again.

In 1997 the people of Iran elected Muhammad Khatami, a liberal cleric who had campaigned to replace the "clash" with the "dialogue of civilizations" these hopes however were dashed in 2002 when our good old friend George W Bush named Iran together with Iraq and North Korea as his "axis of evil" this after Iran lent it's support to the United States in overthrowing the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, thanks but no thanks guys!!

President Khatemi shortly after being elected went on CNN holding an olive branch stressing the need for dialogue; praising "the Great American Civilization" he also implied that the hostage crisis had been "excessive," "a pity" and a "tragedy". The Clinton Administration reciprocated. It stopped labelling Iran as a "Rogue" and "pariah state”. It described the 1953 coup as a "setback" for Iran, and for the first time admitted that the United States had "orchestrated the overthrow of Iran's popular prime minister, Mohammad Mossadeq." It relaxed draconian Sanctions imposed since 1979 and various items were permitted to be imported from Iran and Vice-Versa.

When September 11th struck, Iran wasted no time in holding the “terrorist Taliban” responsible. Jack Straw the then British Foreign Minister, rushed to Tehran for what he termed a “historic visit.” He thanked Iran for its help over Afghanistan and declared that “Iran stood together with Britain in opposing terrorism of any kind” Colin Powell, the then US secretary of state, shook hands with the Iranian foreign minister and told the press that Tehran would be included in the coalition against terrorism. In return, Iranian leaders announced that they were willing to resume normal diplomatic relations with the United States, relations that had been cut ever since the hostage crisis of 1979.

When the United States invaded Afghanistan, Iran offered to rescue stranded pilots, opened up its ports for the transit of humanitarian aid and urged the anti-Taliban Northern Alliance whom it had armed to fully cooperate with the Americans, they were also instrumental in brokering a deal by which Hamid Karzai” the American favourite, was nominated as president of Afghanistan.

The Axis speech together with the State of the Union speech were multiple bombshells as they lumped Iran together with Iraq and North Korea as dangerous states hell bent on destroying the world. They depicted the Afghan campaign as “only just the start of the war on terror” and they weren’t f**king about!!

The speech sounded especially ominous coming soon after the unveiling of the Bush doctrine in a document entitled “national strategy of the United States of America. This doctrine openly advocated pre-emptive military action against countries deemed to be potential dangers to United States interests.

It was not only Iranians who were taken back by the speech, Colin Powell’s deputy remarked that some neoconservatives were in dire need of Psychotherapy. Although the axis took many unawares it was not a surprise for those familiar with Neoconservative influence in Washington


Please read neo cons David Frum, writer of the Axis of Evil speech, and Richard Perle’s, former assistant secretary of defence nicknamed the prince of Darkness, self proclaimed “manual for victory” An End to Evil, How to Win the War on Terrorism, where they “support the overthrow of the terrorist mullahs of Iran,” call for war on Syria, regard Saudi Arabia and France yes FRANCE!! As “enemies not as friends”, “withdraw support for the UN” if it does not tow the line, “squeeze China, blockade North Korea” and “abandon the notion that a Palestinian state will contribute in any important way to US security” It also contains some great commentary on the war in Iraq, one of my favourites was regarding “Saddam’s success at concealing his Weapons of mass destruction” you guys, what you like hey!!

Please also go to the heavily influential neoconservative think tank PNAC's website www.newamericancentury.org and download their lovely statements of principles drafted in 1997. Look at the signatories and then count how many made it into the Bush Administration, its pretty impressive, nearly a full house!! Then download rebuilding American Defences (2000), and go to the Whitehouse’s website and download the Quadrennial Defence Review Report (2001) produced by the administration after they “seized” (jokes!!) power and compare the two, the latter being a slimmed down word friendlier version. It reads for a lovely few years of carnage and world destruction, O how the smell of burnt flesh really complements the ambience of wealth.


Back to Iran, Khatami, the reform candidate, won the presidency with more than 70 percent of the vote in a campaign where nearly 80 percent of the electorate participated. He campaigned on a theme of Civil society, rule of law, individual freedoms, woman’s rights, political pluralism and “dialogue of civilizations.” He stressed the need to “distinguish between real religion and traditions draped in religion,” to borrow ideas of the Enlightenment and to appreciate the beneficial aspects of the West.

The reform movement took the label Khordad Front, in the 2000 Majles elections they increased there support by over a million votes winning 195 parliamentary seats. The Khordad Front scored two additional electoral victories in the following year. They got Khatami re-elected with a larger majority, increasing their vote by two million. They also swept the first nationwide local elections, winning 75 percent of the vote, they also won all of Tehran’s 15 seats, their Tehran slate was led by Nouri and Hajjarian. in his electoral campaign, Nouri declared that “our Islam is that of love and friendship, not of suspicion” (WHAT!! Dill I hear you scream their not all bomb crazy beardos with a hatred for anything free!) and that “we do not support a clerical leadership that would permit violence and breaking up of lawful meetings.”

I think I am going on a bit too much now so I am going to try and tie things up. In Iran there was a big battle between the reformers who in 2002 controlled the legislative and the local assemblies as well as the executive and the presidency. The conservatives on the other hand have easy access to their leader, control the judiciary and carry much weight in the military.

Initially Khatami scored a number of well publicised political successes. Improved relations with the West. Placed his supporters in key ministries, his interior minister encouraged the newly created Human Rights Commission and sent a parliamentary commission to investigate the main prisons. The labour minister, who had been the chair of the workers House, reaffirmed the progressive Labour Law. The culture minister issued some 200 licences and encouraged book and film industries. The justice ministry remarkable improved prison conditions, he also appointed woman judge’s to family courts for the first time since 1979 and encouraged judges to shun physical punishments in favour of fines and prison sentences. Khatami supporters passed over fifty reform bills, the bills proposed a special press court outside the judiciary to give newspaper editors greater safeguards. They extended the teaching of English from secondary schools to primary schools. They reiterated the constitutional ban on torture, spelling out the forms of pressure that could not be used, blindfolding, sleep deprivation, solitary confinement and lack of contact with family etc.

The reform bills tried to whittle down the electoral power of the Guardian Council. They reactivated the parliamentary committee on Woman’s affairs, gave Woman state scholarships to study abroad, permitted deputies to wear Hijabs instead of full Chadours (full cover covering) proposed giving woman equal rights in divorce cases. They tried to ratify, unsuccessfully, the UN Declaration on All Forms of Discrimination against Woman (Iran and the United States have the distinction of being among the few countries that have not accepted this declaration).

The conservatives fought back vetoing most of the reform bills, the battle between reform and conservative ensued. The conflict soon reached a stalemate. The conservatives could block reforms, close down papers and put opponents on trial. The reformers on the other hand retained public support and even increased popularity as the other side became more intransigent and high handed.

Although the reformers failed to score major legislative victories, they achieved an incredible amount of successes. Iran’s relationship with the west continued to improve relaxing laws encouraging an unprecedented amount of foreign investment improving the overall economic situation in Iran.

The social reforms were even more impressive, most villages not to mention towns now had, electricity schools, health clinics, roads and running water. The UN estimated that 94 percent of the population now had access to health services and safe water. The literacy rose from less than 50 percent in 1997 to 84 percent in 2002. Among those between 6 and 29 it was as high as 97 percent. The infant mortality rate fell from 104 per 1,000 in the mid 1970s to 25 in 2002. Life expectancy increased from 55 to 69, one of the best in the Middle East. Population growth declined from 4 percent per annum in the late 1980s to 1.2 percent in 2003 mainly due to the establishment of woman’s health clinics and the distribution of birth control devices.

The UN commended Iran for this dramatic success and predicted that the fertility rate (the average number of children born to a woman in her lifetime), which had plummeted from 7 to 3, would drop to 2 by 2010. In other words Iran had solved its population problem. The government also tried to pre-empt AIDS by distributing condoms and holding sex education classes.

Meanwhile then number of students enrolled in universities increased from 140,000 in 1978 to nearly 1,7000,000 in 2002. Woman made major strides in higher education. By 2003 woman formed 63 percent of the incoming university students, 54 percent of collage students, 45 percent of all doctors, 25 percent of government employees and 13 percent of the general labour force..

The reason I drag up with such detail the story of the reformers and there strides for improved democratisation and progress within Iran is that the Bush Administrations US hostility towards Iran summed up in all its glory by the Axis of Evil speech instead of weakening the regime’s clerics and die hard conservatives strengthened them.

The imperial power, much more powerful than the 19th century ones, was at there door hungry to devour the whole country. Such themes resonate well in a nation that has struggled for a hundred years to gain full independence from colonial powers. The issue of reform was pushed to the backburner for the time being. The People were fearful (and rightly so I might add) under that spell of fear they submit to the rallying call of hardliners and in short Ahmadinejad was ushered in.

US foreign Policy invariably carried under the banner of spreading democracy, once again ended up undermining it.


I waffled on a tad to much so I will try to keep my next points as brief as possible.


Nuclear Iran, myth, lies and hypocrisy?


Lessons should really have been learnt from the naked emperors myriad of lies that led to the Iraq war, but sadly this is obviously not the case. Let me state with much frustration that the same media are printing the same lies, spun by the same people about the same thing.

Nothing like a bit of “Weapons of mass destruction” to freak a man out.

Here's a bit of irony for you; Iran began its nuclear program in the early 1970s when the American installed Shah claimed he needed alternative sources of fuel for the day when the oil reserves would be depleted. The United States, France and Germany signed contracts to build 12 nuclear plants. The Shah told western journalist that “without doubt and sooner than you think, we will have nuclear weapons” Fortunately most of these projects were scuttled during the revolution and subsequent war.

The 1990s saw Iran revive a much more modest nuclear program. Iran voluntarily signed up to the Nuclear Non Proliferation treaty, not that that was to do them any favours. (India, Pakistan and that, with got loads and the world knows it but don’t do s**t even though its illegal, Israel, have not put pen to paper, but hey, allies can do what they **** they like cant they?)

It didn’t take long for the newly depleted uranium dust to settled on war torn Iraq for the sabres to start rattling from the bush camp. Threatening to attack Iran for trying to create “weapons of mass destruction,” come on seriously your trying it again!!

It all comes down to the thorny issue of Iranians enriching Uranium and at the moment there is no concrete evidence or should I say “smoking gun” hehe! that they are lying when they say they only want it for peaceful means.

Although as someone who deplores the idea and purpose of nuclear weapons I can fully understand and expect a country being threatened by the US and Israel (200 nukes), to build one as soon as humanly possible. (Please refer to North Korea, they did and they got taken off the black list and have now resumed If somewhat frosty relations with the US. Or another good example would be weak and puny Iraq, years of sanctions eroded every inch of Iraq’s infustructure and when the Americans walked in the place just fell apart. Lesson to be learnt tool up or get tooled!!

Again like every issue it is incredibly complex but as I have already written what is turning out to be a small book, I will leave the issue of a nuclear Iran with a few examples of absurdly ironic hypocrisy.


Hypocrisy


America is spending trillions of dollars on new Nuclear weapons more deadly than any that came before. Weapons that can be launched from space to anywhere in the world at a touch of a button, given them total world domination.

Britain is spending billions of pounds on new Trident Nuclear weapons which will not even be controlled by Britain itself. Yes you guessed Americas will hold the keys to annihilation, (of course were in safe hands just don’t mention Japan)

Israel as stated before has over 200 nuclear weapons, contrary to international law and for a country so small it is up there with the best of them and is considered one of the leading nuclear powers, even though its not official, hum....

My favourite example has to be that of Mordechai Vanunu. As I write this article Mordechai Vanunu faces an unjustified second term in an Israeli prison, his crime - talking to foreigners. The Israeli government says he holds state secretes and is therefore a danger to national security. What words could merit such forced silence. In September 1986 Vanunu, a technical assistant at the Dimona nuclear plant went to London armed only with his conscious and two rolls of film. The photos exposed Israel’s clandestine nuclear bomb factory. After checking their authenticity The Sunday Times were to publish Vanunu's findings. By then Vanunu would safely be taken out of the picture. While in London Vanunu met and fell for an American tourist know only as ‘Cindy’, and she convinced him to come to Rome with her on holiday. Flattered by her interest and smitten by her advances, Vanunu looked forward to his romantic break away. Alas he could only dream, for Rome was to be the venue of a magnificent violation of international law. The honey trap that was ‘Cindy’ led him to awaiting Mossad agents, who proceeded to beat, drug and finally kidnap Vanunu, smuggling him out of Italy by freighter boat. He later arrived in Israel to be sentenced by secret trial to 18 years in prison for treason and espionage (how ironic). Vanunu was to spend 12 of those 18 years in solitary confinement. In April 2004 he was finally released, free at last or so he thought. Since his release Vanunu has been subjected to severe restrictions of movement, banned from leaving the country and forbidden to speak to any foreigners. Vanunu, far from free, was to be the focus of what Amnesty International called “cruel, inhuman, degrading treatment… prohibited by international law." Any information he holds is surly outdated while Israel’s mammoth nuclear capabilities are facts of common knowledge.

The biggest irony though has to be that both Israel and America are on record, with plans in place, threatening to nuke Iran because Iran may or may not be trying to build a nuke. Someone shout OWELLIAN DOUBLESPEAK!!

Let me also add that covert operations such as bombing, social unrest and target assassinations have been and are currently taking place within Iran’s borders, with the political support and funding of Washington. Mr Ahmadinejad might have a stupidly lose tongue and some incredible disgusting viewpoints, but most of what comes out of his gob are just words, rhetoric. Fortunately for his sake and ours Iran has no capabilities of wiping out Israel, let alone the Unites States. It would be purely suicidal and that’s one thing that power hungryl leaders and there regiems are not. Our friends in Israel and America on the other hand are fearless with their “Shock and Awe” military power, acting out their threats and words with bloody consequence.

Another bitter sweet irony that has lead to the possibility of such an attack, is the fact that Iran has come out as one of the very few winners politically from Iraq, through no fault of there own might I add. The war and its aftermath produced a government aligned politically to Iran, if you were a neo con, that would piss you off wouldn’t it!!


And as Greeneny gave us some great sound bites from Mr Ahmadinejad , I would like to do the same with some of Americas and Israel’s finest.


“The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet”
--Dov Weisglass, adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, referring to the siege of Gaza that preceded this bombing. Preventing the population from receiving essential supplies of food, medicine, electricity and water.

"I will play music and celebrate what the Israeli air force is doing.”
--Ofer Shmerling, an Israeli civil defence official on how he will spend his time during the current bombing campaign.

Very worryingly a sign that this conflict in Gaza could be manipulated and maybe even be planned with a view to bleed (literally) on to Iran;

“So while our focus obviously is on Gaza right now, this could turn out to be a much larger conflict…we’re looking at potentially a multi-front war here.”
You would strike Iran right now? asked host Alan Colmes.
“I would have done it before this”
--John “blood Thirsty” Bolton Former US ambassador to the UN (even though he was a vocal opponent of the UN and advocated its demise) A few days ago on Fox News responding to the crisis in Gaza in the only way he knows how to. He later went on to say that many countries would secretly be “popping champagne corks” if Iran were attacked, just like they did with Iraq John…yes!!

"You know that old Beach Boys song, Bomb Iran?"
Then proceeding to sing "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran."
--John McCain, US Senator and thankfully unsuccessful presidential candidate, addressing a town hall meeting in South Carolina, the crowd reacted with laughter.

Israeli Former Prime Ministers:

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, Former Prime Minister and founding father of Israel, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."
-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).
David Ben Gurion, Former Prime Minister and founding father of Israel

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
--Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
--Isreali Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
--Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

"I told him my position and Bush agreed,"
--Former Prime Minister Netanyahu, opposition Likud party's hard-line chairman (was on course to be Israel’s new leader come February, but the slaughter in Gaza has buoyed and improved the standing of his opposition) stating on Israeli radio that George Bush promised him that the United States would join Israel in a nuclear strike against Iran.

"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
--Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online


Quotes and sound bites can be easily found and often manipulated; actions on the other hand speak louder than words. Please take all quotes including Greenenys and evaluate for yourself what could be deemed empty rhetoric or hot air blowing and that of concrete action and events.


P.S.


Dill, not only does your ethnocentric orientalist viewpoint (look them up if you don’t know, they should help you to understand the roots of your inaccurate assumptions) border on racism, (No, just for clarification I am not calling you a racist merely suggesting that you are on a rather hostile border) they more importantly stand on the incredibly unstable leg of assuming that the States you mention are representative of their population’s, this is indeed as always not the case.

As stated in a previous post I would suggest reading up on the history of the Middle East, Its country and rulers. These Princes, Sheiks and dictators that bane the land with there presence. These regimes are all literally bankrupt and could not function without the stupid amount of Western money that props them up.

Lastly it would be a good suggestion to have a look back at the rise of politically militant Islam. Not too long ago in a land not to far away (the Middle east) the chosen choice of resistance to Western imperialism came in the form of Arab Nationalism. Taking influence from socialist ideas, it included many positives, woman’s rights for one. This was all part of the parcel that came under the banner of Arab Nationalism. But low and behold Arab Nationalism, like Ron Seals Wood Varnish, does exactly what it says on the tin and therefore representing the interests of natives inhabits just wasn’t on, was it now!! Hast I forgot to mention, if it wasn’t obvious to you, they were still Muslim, and they prayed five times a day and all that.

The politically militant Islam movement was born out of the failures of Arab Nationalism and was skilfully used by the West, crushing it’s enemys into the desert once and for all.

Let me reiterate with example; there was no Hamas 20 years ago, none, no Hamas, no scary beard man with a green flag with Arabic writting shouting Alllah Akbah, none of that mate, none, zip like Obamas mouth! But there was still occupation and as always in tail of occupation, bloody resistance.

Religion as Onemandown accurately put it, is a smokescreen and welcome one at that. Contrary to your belief Muslim’s differ from sect to sect, country to country, class to class, town to town. Some my friend would even go as far as saying that just like Christians (NO!) Yes, they can be both extreme and liberal!! I can imagine that this is hard to believe for some people, alas the truth is often the bitterest pill to swallow.


P.P.S.


Skelly I love Wham too, especially George’s hair in those days. Club Tropicana is one of the most thought provoking songs of all time don’t you think, the line “drinks are free” represents the thirst of humanity quenching freedom for the first time!!

For a second I thought had my own Guy Denning original!

Depeche Mode: "People are people. So why should it be. You and I should get along so awfully. "

Roberts

You posted

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
--Isreali Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

However, the actual quote in its proper context was
(from Reuters and published April 1 1988 NY Times)

"Shamir Promises To Crush Rioters"

Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir warned today that rioters would be crushed ''like grasshoppers.''

query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE1DD1F3DF932A35757C0A96E948260&scp=1&sq=april+1%2C1988+shamir&st=nyt

So he never said the "Palestinians would be crushed" at all.
It was "rioters" he was referring to
A bit of a different tone, no?

I completely agree with you about examining everything for accuracy especially before I pass it on for others to continue to spread around.

Before you know it, people might just start to believe its all true

Id just like to say what an interesting thread this is.

I have spent a good few hours following up on links etc.

There has never been a historical 'Palestine', just as there was never a historical Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon or Iran. All were artificially created from the bones of the Ottoman empire by European colonial powers, notably France and Great Britain.

Hence the sectarian strife in Iraq, by the way.

The Ottoman Empire, of course, was the last of a line of Muslim imperialists who conquered the various nations of the Middle East. They replaced the last iterations of the Mongols, who replaced various iterations of the Caliphates, who replaced the Arab conquerors of the Semitic pagan people of the Middle East in Muhammeds time.

Then before this there were the Jewish provinces under the Romans, and before that the Hellenistic empires of Alexander, and before that Assyrians, Babylonians, Hittites etc etc with brief periods of Jewish self-rule, Canaanite self-rule and so on.

So how far do you want to go back?

In 1948 the 'Palestinian' people were asked to leave not by the Isrealis, but by their Arab 'brothers'. These 'brothers', once they failed to destroy Israel, have used the Palestinian cause to district from their own abuses ever since.

So whatever you may think of the creation of Israel, it is done. Israel has millions of 'Arabs' living within its borders and treats them better than say Jordan did and does treat the Palestinian refugees they invited to flee in 1948.

The problem isn't religion, since Jews and Muslims have lived amongst each other for centuries.

It is Nationalism.

An artificial Nationalism created by the colonial powers after WW1 and stoked by the current leaders of Saudi Arabia (in particular) and Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Iran when it suits their needs

Hi Alsbabar
you said:
Dll - RACISM isn't just about the colour of ones skin - and your comments do bring up issues of RACE. By posting the cartoon, which you did so casually, do you not realise how offended Muslims are by it or even the Jews with regards to the anti-semetic cartoons? So i would suggest you think before you post.

What are you going on about? I have never mentioned race or colour of skin. My comments do not bring up the question of race, they bring up the question of ideology. I couldn't give a toss what race anyone is. This is so stupid, I say I do not like an ideology and you start going on about colour of skin and race.

And your point about the cartoon I posted makes my point for me. If i published that cartoon in Saudi Arbia or Afganistan
I would be be-headed... which proves my point.

See, I view that attitude as part of the problem. It engenders apathy in the populace and lowers expectations + standards.

Many politicians are simply realists, who from their elevated perches have a better, wider view of the game. Whenever you are the arbiter of the battle of scarce resources fought by competing interests, you will be sullied. There is no escaping that.

many are non voters by choice - they are also realists

Scarce rescources ? The endless loop of in your face consumerism and relentless aquisition does not help with the depletion of these limited rescources

You cannot maintain the teetering pyramid scheme of capital without having friendly salesmen who are willing to support your product & its aims - this is the role of the politician

Deomcracy is a well sold product that promises YOU the chance to have your say, to make your choice - but a hotel breakfast bar promising a wide array of such choice, but consisting only of bowls of human shit with differing fruit garnishes is no real choice at all

Dear Greeneny

Let me first apologies if this comes across as blunt; Your post is not even worth the free internet page it appears on. You seem to think that by picking out two of the many quotes provided (and in this case focusing on quite a minor difference) You can ignore the many factually backed points laden in my lengthy posts. And for the third and final time Mr Greeneny please take note:

“quotes and soundbites can be manipulated but actions speak louder than words”

Just for the record who were these pesky rioters….O yeah, that’s right Palestinians.


Hello Dill

Firstly let me apologise, the sarcasm in my response was unneeded and unnecessary. I can fully understand how this could offend, so please accept my sincere apologies as I wish no disrespect at all.

I have no problem with you criticising or debating the merits and pitfalls of religion. I am myself unfortunately unswayed by religion and therefore dammed to an eternity of nothingness!! I can see much that is wrong with regards to organised religion but I also believe there is much to learn from all their key players, from Moses or Mohammed to Jesus and Buddha.

Lets move on to Racism, lets be clear, racism is a tool used to divide and rule plain and simple. Please examine the history of slavery and its usage. In order to subjugate, control, work the s**t out of and treat Black people appallingly, good family folk, had to have a good family reason. Enter racism and its extremely handy views; Black people did not have souls so they were sub human.... and the rest.

With regards to wording, you could argue that because Islam is a belief system they cannot be defined as a race therefore one cannot be racist towards Muslims. The same can be argued, wrongly I may add, with regards to Judaism. Yet Anti-Semitism is as real as Islamphobia. Let me add that Arabs as well as Jews are Semites and share so much history and culture, making this conflict even more unnecessary than it already is.

Prejudice is prejudice, and if it makes any difference for this argument I will refer to it as such. Christians share their faith but many differ in their interpretations. The action of the pope or views from the Vatican are not necessarily the accepted views of all Christians.

Let me be crystal clear about this, the pursuit of oil control and supply is at the root of all foreign intervention in the region. Again a quick scan of the last hundred years should confirm this. The latest phase in this quest, T.W.A.T. (the war against terror,) has inflamed and encouraged the systematic prejudice against all people of Islamic faith, collectively dumping them in the same pigeon s**t hole.

In order for good family folk to accept and in many cases made clear on this forum, defend such barbaric violence, whether in Iraq, Palestine and unfortunately more likely as each day passes Iran, they need a good family reason. Enter prejudice and it’s extremely handy views; Muslims are all terrorist’s that hate woman and our freedom.... and the rest.

Governments, or should I say Dictatorships or rulings monarchy’s, are not representative of their people. Quite the opposite, as stated before they are all bankrolled by western powers and are totally unable to function or keep power without such impressive funding. Their concentration of power can only survive by towing the line drawn by their paymasters.

Nearly all of the countries you mention are client states of the dominant superpower, America. Far from hating our freedoms the Muslim world is gasping to quench the same freedoms we drink without thought. The majority of these country's population are made up of the young, these representatives of hope bleed the same as us, hold the same desire as us, watch the same US movies as us and listen to the same music.

The student, woman or reform movements are relatively commonplace in the soil of the middle east, but the repression of there governments are swift and merciless and are all to quick to chop down branches before the leaves start to grow.

I do except that there is a problem with a militant and extreme interpretation of Islam. This strand of influence is growing by the day and has done for many years now. If we are to counter its nihilistic vision we need only examine it’s origins, development and growth. In doing so we will see their rise corresponding to the demise and failings of Arab Nationalism, hence my previous referencing.

The western powers as the dominant political force over the last hundred years, have constantly without fail undermined the very freedom it purports. That entailed breed a very angry people increasingly hostile in reaction. This mutation is not irreversible but will need radical change in policy to prevent further inflammation. I will sum it up in one clear sentence:

Get your grubby fingers out of the middle eastern honey jar pooh governments of the west

With my points I hope I have made myself clear, please let me also apologies again and accept my best wishes for the New Year.


Dear sfdoddsy

As I seem to be spending more time replying on this forum than actual living, I will make this my last post touching on the points you made somewhat briefly.

It is true that Ottomans were there before the British, but this argument has nothing to do with the fight for freedom over occupation and control, the gatekeeper may of changed but the same gate remains locked. Just out of interest; the founding fathers of Zionism approached the Ottoman empire as they understood that to setting up shop on someone else’s land would obviously produce hostility, therefore they would need the full support of the dominant power of the day. Next stop Britain, then all aboard the good ship lollipop USA.

The idea that the Palestinians fled there own homes and land, taking only there own most precious possessions because the Arab leaders said so can hardly be believed, but than again history is written by the winners. (I again request anyone interested to find out about the village of Deir Yassin)

You are right "Israel is done". I and the international community including most Arabs and Palestinians accept that fact. The question now, is on Israel to accept the fact and rights of the Palestinian people, withdrawing to the international recognised borders of 1967, this of course a mere 20 percent of historic Palestine. (UN 242.) Cease and dismantle there illegal settlements in the west bank, cease the un-vetted aggression and terror that has lead to thousands of deaths and stop the systematic siege of torture that has starved 1.5 million people squeezed and locked into the Gaza strip, a densely populated prison ghetto roughly the size of the Isle of Wight.

I agree with you again regarding outside interference as mentioned in my previous posts and yes, Iraq is a great example.

Just to touch upon the Arab population of Israel, the idea that they retain equality within Israel is somewhat untrue and any enquiry into wage, social conditions and treatment would prove otherwise. But even if true it still would not excuse the actions and brutality of the long, current and ongoing occupation. As for Jordan, the Hashemite Kingdom of the Casino Royales, they have no care for there own people let alone the Palestinian refugees.

With regards to Arab nationalism the war on, and failure to, negotiate with secular Arab nationalism, (by nationalism I speak of the movement for the rights of the inhabits over that of foreign colonial or imperial powers) has led us to the rise and expansion of militant Islam as the dominant force of resistance to oppression as discussed above.

And finally, although it plays its part, you are right to claim this conflict has nothing to do with religion. So for those with a problem with Muslims as a whole, ponder this; I am no fan of the Jewish state of Israel’s occupation of Palestine, in fact I deplore it, but I direct my anger at Zionism not Judaism. Therefore I suggest it to be wiser to do much the same with regards to the extreme political forms of Islam and not Islam itself.

In 2001 South Park Aired a very funny episode entitled "Super Best Friends." It featured the prophet Mohammad and received no complaints. The complaints seemed to arise when they re-ran the episodes in 2006 after the Danish Cartoon Controversy, (even then they were nothing in comparison.) I personally found nothing wrong with the episode and found it to be incredibly funny, (south park treats everyone on level footing when it comes to piss taking.) I am sure some people found it offensive, but even those who did were rather muted in their response. The Danish cartoons on the other hand where a whole different matter.

We live in a world where at the moment the middle east is in flames, its populations on fire burn pretty easily. I suggest you take onboard the current climate in which these Danish cartoons, printed in a paper with sordid history of racism, enter the world. Depicting the prophet Mohammed with a Bomb for a turban at a time when all Muslims are labeled terrorists, is more politically motivated and inflammatory, than it is a quest for freedom. This time of tin pot dictators suppressing their own populations on the behest of foreign powers. A time when these same foreign powers bomb with “Shock and Awe” defenceless country’s in order to occupy and rape resources. A terrible age of unevenness, where a Muslim life is worth less than a Western one. I would suggest some understanding of context and situation is in order.

If you taught and hit someone for long enough, there is a chance they may just snap. (let me be clear; I am in no way defending what was in some cases a totally unacceptable over reaction, merely trying to understand its roots)

Lastly let me sum my view up as simply as possible:

For the sake of both sides and the world, there will be no peace without justice.

This will be my last and finally post on the matter alas the real world beckons with important challenges that need to be met. Thank’s to all that contributed to such a great lively debate, and those who took time out to read my stupidly long posts.

I wish you all a happy new year and will use my last sentence to call on all those appalled by the current situation, to join me and thousands more tomorrow on the streets of London, (and various other cities around the UK and world,) calling for an immediate ceasefire, demanding our government do more to halt the murder that is causing such needless bloodshed.

“All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing”
--Albert Einstein

Salaam, Shalom, Peace.


Below are a few articles I thought may be of interest:

Special spin body gets media on message, says Israel

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/02/israel-palestine-pr-spin

Deconstructing diplomacy

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/01/israelandthepalestinians-foreignpolicy

The rotten state of Egypt is too powerless and corrupt to act

www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-the-rotten-state-of-egypt-is-too-powerless-and-corrupt-to-act-1220048.html

Leaders lie, civilians die, and lessons of history are ignored

www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-leaders-lie-civilians-die-and-lessons-of-history-are-ignored-1215045.html

Why bombing Ashkelon is the most tragic irony

www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-why-bombing-ashkelon-is-the-most-tragic-irony-1216228.html

So what have the Palestinians got to complain about?

www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mark-steel/mark-steel-so-what-have-the-palestinians-got-to-complain-about-1218135.html

There are also many informative essays on Znet:

www.zmag.org/znet

And for more info on the national and local Demonstrations please visit:

www.stopwar.org.uk/

P.S

Front page of today's sun

"Gaza Tormented"....O no, sorry, "Gazza Tormented!!"

Somehow I find this documentary very relevant in this debate...

www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares

Hi Roberts1, many thanks for the reply, and the gracious apology which I gladly accept.

I actually agree with pretty much everything you said... Although i am still adamant that Islam IS a belief system, it is certainly not a race, to me that is self evident. The question of the ethnicity of jews is slightly different, as they (imo) represent both a race and a religion... (leaving aside converts of course)... this has traditionally been preserved by the religion/ethnicity only passing through the mother.

I suppose the thing that does rile me is that everytime i critisize any aspect of Sharia/Islamic law the word racist tends to appear pretty quickly.

It seems very strange to me that as soon as i defend gay rights, womens rights, religious freedom, I get called a racist... absolutely nothing could be further from the truth, it just seems a lazy and inaccurate way of closing down a debate.

And as for Islamaphobia, that to me seems to be ridiculous charge. The dictionary defines a phobia as an irrational fear, there is nothing irrational about my fear of islamic law.

But those points aside, I have enjoyed your posts immensely and found them very informative... a happy new year to you too my friend !!!!!