Hello Dill

Thank you for your kind words and let me say I have greatly enjoyed our debate.

Please, if you will, let me clear up something, as you cannot understand the rational behind my argument I will sum up my point with the simplest of examples:

Amir Khan, the boxer is a Muslim
Hamid Kharzi, President of Afghanistan is a Muslim
Osama Bin Laden, the terrorist, Is a Muslim
Major James Michael Ahearn, US army officer killed in Iraq, was a Muslim
Sarah Maple, Young British Artists is, yes, you guessed it… a Muslim

Yes, they share the same faith in Islam, and I can image them to be in many ways extremely similar, then again aren’t all human beings, but I can assure you that their interpretation of Islam, viewpoints and actions are strikingly different.

P.S.

Please feel free to criticise Sharia Law, Islamic Law and for that matter any form of Religious Government but please understand that these do not represent the view as Muslims as an entity.

Any form of prejudice, whether towards Woman, Religion, Sexuality, race or disability should be freely counted and encouraged.

I will leave the forum with the quote "Oderint dum metuant" from Emperor Caligula roughly translated "Let them hate as long as they fear." (Which can be applied to all, no matter what background; Muslim, Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Gay, Straight, East, West, Biggie, Tupac!!)

Some interesting books and films on the subject’s discussed:

The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World by Avi Shlaim
The History of Zionism by Walter Laqueur
The Myths of Zionism by John Rose
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe
The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of the Middle East by Robert Fisk
The Age of the Warrior: Selected Writings by Robert Fisk
Pity the Nation: Lebanon at War by Robert Fisk
Stolen Youth: The Politics of Israel's Detention of Palestinian Children by Catherine Cook, Adam Hanieh, and Adah Kay
Let Me Stand Alone: The Journals of Rachel Corrie by Rachel Corrie
Arafat: From Defender to Dictator by Said K. Aburish
The Rise, Corruption and Coming Fall of the House of Saud by Said K. Aburish
Nasser: The Last Arab by Said K. Aburish
Saddam Hussein: The Politics of Revenge by Said K. Aburish
Brutal Friendship: The West and the Arab Elite by Said K. Aburish
Orientalism: Western Conceptions of the Orient (Penguin Modern Classics) by Edward W. Said
The New Rulers of the World by John Pilger
The Fat The New Mandarins of American Power: The Bush Administration's Plans for the World by Alex Callinicos
Faithful Triangle: United States, Israel and the Palestinians by Noam Chomsky
Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media by Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky
Hegemony or Survival : America's Quest for Global Dominance by Noam Chomsky
Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy by Noam Chomsky
Chain of Command by Seymour M. Hersh
Saddam Hussein: An American Obsession by Andrew Cockburn and Patrick Cockburn
Inventing the Axis of Evil: The Truth About North Korea, Iran, and Syria by Bruce Cumings, Ervand Abrahamian, and Moshe Ma'oz
Iran: A People Interrupted by Hamid Dabashi
Target Iran: The Truth About the US Plans for Regime Change by Scott Ritter

Films:

Death in Gaza
The war on Democracy – John Pilger
Documentaries That Changed The World - John Pilger
Outfoxed
The Road To Guantanamo
Iraq In Fragments
the shooting of Thomas Hurndall
And defiantly Mr CuriousGeorge’s recommendation Occupation101

For Love

Great plan. Store oxygen tanks with the rockets, let the Israelis bomb the area. remove all bombed rocket debris and leave the burned out oxygen tanks. Wow Genius.

On a slightly different tack, president Bush really is a nob.
He says everything is the palastineans fault, there can be no truce while people are supplying weapons to the (democratically elected) government of Palastine, while the Americans send 80 million dollars worth of armaments to Isralel every year.

The whole world needs to get together to sort this one out once and for all, at the moment the Israelis appear to making themselves the most hated country in the world... how will that ever help?

I have to be honest and say generally I have a certain amount of sympathy for Israel, but one can't escape the fact that they have made a massive illegal land grab, and don't seem to want to admit it.

It is a complecated situation sure, but enough people have died over this now, enough is enough.

Let me be blunt as well Roberts

You are claiming that the inaccurate quotes you posted

"We will crush Palestinians" is the same as

"We will crush rioters"

And

"We must expel Arabs and take their places." is the same as

"We do not wish and do not need to expel Arabs and take their place. "

Clearly they are not.

Pre conceived notions based on half truths and distortions no matter how long the list is, are meaningless.

You have given a good example of the problem regarding this issue and
it brings to mind ironically another quote by Mark Twain
"by the time the truth puts on its shoes, a lie can travel half way around the world."
And it certainly has ....

Dill,

I'm sorry but I disagree.
And too many don't realize. that right before Bush assumed power in 2000, the Palestinians and Israels had said in a joint statement to the press after the Taba Summit
"We made progress, substantial progress. We are closer than ever to the possibility of striking a final deal," said Shlomo Ben-Ami, Israel's negotiator. Saeb Erekat, Palestinian chief negotiator, said, "My heart aches because I know we were so close. We need six more weeks to conclude the drafting of the agreement."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taba_Summit

And as the political winds shifted, all sides danced away from what they had almost achieved, but its still there and I trust if they can sort out the one major problem of Hamas, it will be done with Obama/Clinton.

Ralph Nader has stuck his oar in.
www.nader.org/index.php?/archives/2092-Letter-to-Bush-on-Gaza-Crisis.html

... I was alway a fan of his until I saw him on big brother.
It became increasingly apparent he was an egomaniac of enormous arrogance, who bullied and dominated the more vunerable members of the house relentlessly. He seemed to assume he was the leader and started making up rules he expected everyone else to follow. He later manufactured incidents so that he could continue dominating and bullying while make himself "right" and other people "wrong"
He came over as a nasty man with a lot of deep seated issues.
But it was nice to see him give the Senate commission a bit of stick... thats because it was nice to see the commission get some stick rather than because I admire Mr Galloway

www.wallcandy.info If I write this, will moderators make it suddenly disappear?

Bump again for anyone wanting to make their views known on the Israel subject


Anyone?