acmeart
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February 2010
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by acmeart on Dec 24, 2010 20:42:55 GMT 1, hi all,
A friend of mine brought a banksy print via ebay , he met the guy inside a bank in fulham checked the print stamps etc, paid the guy in cash then he had it framed and then sent off for the coa.
PC got back to him saying it had been brought from art republic with a stolen credit card and has been reported stolen,
he spoke to art republic and they say they want the print back as the bank have clawed back the money.... now being in retail myself it was always the case that face to face transactions with credit cards were fine and no clawbacks. unlike orders over the phone
what do you think he should do (he brought the print outside so theres noway to go through paypal)
many thanks..AA
hi all,
A friend of mine brought a banksy print via ebay , he met the guy inside a bank in fulham checked the print stamps etc, paid the guy in cash then he had it framed and then sent off for the coa.
PC got back to him saying it had been brought from art republic with a stolen credit card and has been reported stolen,
he spoke to art republic and they say they want the print back as the bank have clawed back the money.... now being in retail myself it was always the case that face to face transactions with credit cards were fine and no clawbacks. unlike orders over the phone
what do you think he should do (he brought the print outside so theres noway to go through paypal)
many thanks..AA
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by Coach on Dec 24, 2010 20:47:53 GMT 1, My advice would be speak to a solicitor rather than take advice from an art forum.
Sorry if that sounds off, but I mean it - defo for the best.
c
My advice would be speak to a solicitor rather than take advice from an art forum.
Sorry if that sounds off, but I mean it - defo for the best.
c
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acmeart
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February 2010
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by acmeart on Dec 24, 2010 20:50:35 GMT 1, thanks coach, and it does not sound off, more opinions the better
thanks coach, and it does not sound off, more opinions the better
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by Hanging Around on Dec 24, 2010 21:01:40 GMT 1, my advice would be to keep the print.
your friend did nothing wrong, art republic are a company and its their responsibility to sort it out with their insurance, or put measures in place so they don't get robbed in the first place.
plus their prices are ridiculous anyway, i would tell where to go
my advice would be to keep the print.
your friend did nothing wrong, art republic are a company and its their responsibility to sort it out with their insurance, or put measures in place so they don't get robbed in the first place.
plus their prices are ridiculous anyway, i would tell where to go
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by rottenredrooster on Dec 24, 2010 21:05:14 GMT 1, Your friend obviously wasn't aware that the good he was receiving were stolen. I would keep the print until Art Republic propose a solution which suits you, don't be intimidated by them. Again, legal advice is the better option as Coach said.
Your friend obviously wasn't aware that the good he was receiving were stolen. I would keep the print until Art Republic propose a solution which suits you, don't be intimidated by them. Again, legal advice is the better option as Coach said.
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craigf
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May 2007
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by craigf on Dec 24, 2010 21:10:56 GMT 1, It is far from straight forward due to the circumstances (if it had been stolen by other means art republic would have probably been able to claim on their insurance, depending on their excess and the print would be the insurance company's property). The fact there is at least some sort of audit trail via eBay may help the tracing of the person who stole and resold the print, but maybe not your friend.
As advised above definitely worth talking to someone in the know rather than here as I assume it's a fair amount of ยฃ's we're talking about
It is far from straight forward due to the circumstances (if it had been stolen by other means art republic would have probably been able to claim on their insurance, depending on their excess and the print would be the insurance company's property). The fact there is at least some sort of audit trail via eBay may help the tracing of the person who stole and resold the print, but maybe not your friend.
As advised above definitely worth talking to someone in the know rather than here as I assume it's a fair amount of ยฃ's we're talking about
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hal9001
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Posts โข 192
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December 2010
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by hal9001 on Dec 24, 2010 21:10:59 GMT 1, my advice would be to keep the print. your friend did nothing wrong, art republic are a company and its their responsibility to sort it out with their insurance, or put measures in place so they don't get robbed in the first place. plus their prices are ridiculous anyway, i would tell where to go
If this were a laughing matter I would say LOL to the above poster.
Coach is correct without telling you the reason. Your friend is guilty of "Receiving Stolen Property", there are no ifs ands or buts.
If he keeps it he stands the full force of the law, and all the penalties on the books, if he gets caught (if  , irregardless if he knew it was stolen or paid 1$ or a million rubles, or 500mm Turkish Lira. The important thing to remember here is THERE ARE NO MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCES TO AVOID PENALTY FOR RECEIVING STOLEN PROPERTY.
That having been said a lawyer/solicitor will tell him to return the goods to the police, and charge him an hour for his/her service.
If he wants to keep it, he must never sell it or tell anyone about it, and if he called from his home or cell phone to ask the gallery about it, or used his email address to get the PC COA, then he might be running some very high risk.
my advice would be to keep the print. your friend did nothing wrong, art republic are a company and its their responsibility to sort it out with their insurance, or put measures in place so they don't get robbed in the first place. plus their prices are ridiculous anyway, i would tell where to go If this were a laughing matter I would say LOL to the above poster. Coach is correct without telling you the reason. Your friend is guilty of "Receiving Stolen Property", there are no ifs ands or buts. If he keeps it he stands the full force of the law, and all the penalties on the books, if he gets caught (if , irregardless if he knew it was stolen or paid 1$ or a million rubles, or 500mm Turkish Lira. The important thing to remember here is THERE ARE NO MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCES TO AVOID PENALTY FOR RECEIVING STOLEN PROPERTY. That having been said a lawyer/solicitor will tell him to return the goods to the police, and charge him an hour for his/her service. If he wants to keep it, he must never sell it or tell anyone about it, and if he called from his home or cell phone to ask the gallery about it, or used his email address to get the PC COA, then he might be running some very high risk. |
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lee3
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Posts โข 832
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November 2009
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by lee3 on Dec 24, 2010 21:13:53 GMT 1, >>your friend did nothing wrong, art republic are a company and its their responsibility to sort it out with their insurance, or put measures in place so they don't get robbed in the first place.<<<
The fact of the matter is it belongs to Art Republic. I can state unequivocally that if something of mine were stolen I would want it back. I would contact art republic and try and work it out with them; hopefully it was insured. Thankfully, the world doesn't operate in a manner that stolen merchandise is considered clean if a thief passes it on to a willing and unsuspecting buyer. No auction house would sell that print now without the blessing of PC and if and when the day arrives that your friend wants to pass it on, they are trying to shift stolen property. The fact of the matter is the buyer has a print that PC will not issue a COA for since it's stolen and it would do everyone well to try and remedy that situation.
edit: >>>a key question for your lawyer would be can the COA be legally witheld by PC because of this?<<<
Of course it would be withheld. That's why art owners keep slides of their work and if something is stolen you can prove it should it reach the auction block that it belongs to you. Similarly you contact any foundation or authentication service and let them know it was stolen. There is no way PC will issue a COA to the current buyer given the circumstances, thus the feedback that it was stolen.
>>your friend did nothing wrong, art republic are a company and its their responsibility to sort it out with their insurance, or put measures in place so they don't get robbed in the first place.<<<
The fact of the matter is it belongs to Art Republic. I can state unequivocally that if something of mine were stolen I would want it back. I would contact art republic and try and work it out with them; hopefully it was insured. Thankfully, the world doesn't operate in a manner that stolen merchandise is considered clean if a thief passes it on to a willing and unsuspecting buyer. No auction house would sell that print now without the blessing of PC and if and when the day arrives that your friend wants to pass it on, they are trying to shift stolen property. The fact of the matter is the buyer has a print that PC will not issue a COA for since it's stolen and it would do everyone well to try and remedy that situation.
edit: >>>a key question for your lawyer would be can the COA be legally witheld by PC because of this?<<<
Of course it would be withheld. That's why art owners keep slides of their work and if something is stolen you can prove it should it reach the auction block that it belongs to you. Similarly you contact any foundation or authentication service and let them know it was stolen. There is no way PC will issue a COA to the current buyer given the circumstances, thus the feedback that it was stolen.
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by Hanging Around on Dec 24, 2010 21:13:57 GMT 1, i would like to point out the fact that, clearly, i am not a lawyer
i would like to point out the fact that, clearly, i am not a lawyer
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hal9001
New Member
Posts โข 192
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December 2010
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by hal9001 on Dec 24, 2010 21:16:46 GMT 1, One more comment for everyone who focuses on the money, realize that his money is now GONE WITH THE WIND!
The economic concept of sunken cost is now in play here. More than 99.99% likely they will never get the money back. So paying any attention to the money that is now gone, is like crying over spilled milk.
Move forward and either cover yourself legally and going after the money through legal means OR SIMPLY WRITING IT OFF ON YOUR TAXES AS A THEFT LOSS, or accept that they may be in some hot water some day.
One more comment for everyone who focuses on the money, realize that his money is now GONE WITH THE WIND!
The economic concept of sunken cost is now in play here. More than 99.99% likely they will never get the money back. So paying any attention to the money that is now gone, is like crying over spilled milk.
Move forward and either cover yourself legally and going after the money through legal means OR SIMPLY WRITING IT OFF ON YOUR TAXES AS A THEFT LOSS, or accept that they may be in some hot water some day.
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acmeart
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February 2010
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by acmeart on Dec 24, 2010 21:17:49 GMT 1, he is good friends with pc... they said they will not get involved and the police are saying the same thing. i think he is going with coach and will see a solicitor
thanks all and happy xmas
he is good friends with pc... they said they will not get involved and the police are saying the same thing. i think he is going with coach and will see a solicitor
thanks all and happy xmas
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by Brushstrokes 75 on Dec 24, 2010 21:22:41 GMT 1, I think that your friend is kind of screwed... The rightful owner of the print is art republic.. If art republic starts some litigation, they would get the print back. There has been a lot of similar cases historically speaking...
Now the question is did Art republic got any indemnisation from their insurance company... The question of ownership can now be split between the insurance company and Art republic.
I think that you are kind of right though about face to face transaction.. Art republic have to do their due dilligence there if it was paid face to face.. They have to check the buyer ID...
Coach is right, you should have it checked because it's a little bit more complicated than a normal stolen artwork case....
I think that your friend is kind of screwed... The rightful owner of the print is art republic.. If art republic starts some litigation, they would get the print back. There has been a lot of similar cases historically speaking...
Now the question is did Art republic got any indemnisation from their insurance company... The question of ownership can now be split between the insurance company and Art republic.
I think that you are kind of right though about face to face transaction.. Art republic have to do their due dilligence there if it was paid face to face.. They have to check the buyer ID...
Coach is right, you should have it checked because it's a little bit more complicated than a normal stolen artwork case....
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by des77 on Dec 24, 2010 21:28:06 GMT 1, This shows how important it is to check all of these things before a sale and not after you have handed over large amounts of cash.
This shows how important it is to check all of these things before a sale and not after you have handed over large amounts of cash.
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by boaty on Dec 24, 2010 21:30:02 GMT 1, learned a bit from this thread...
learned a bit from this thread...
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by Coach on Dec 24, 2010 21:36:01 GMT 1, acmeart,
I think all of the above illustrates, with respect to all the members here, why I suggested your mate sees a lawyer, rather than takes advice from an art forum.
When doing so, I would give two further pieces of advice.
First, make sure that you mate finds a solicitor who specialises in litigation, not someone who is a general practitioner (jack of all trades...). Second, do not be afraid to ask what the lawyers experience is, how long they have ben qualified etc, when making an appointment. Everyone has to start somewhere, but if you can avoid it, for several reasons, your mate is better off not hiring a lawyer that is newly qualified - go for someone with at least 5 years post qualification experience if possible.
Hope this helps, and hope your mate gets sorted.
c
acmeart,
I think all of the above illustrates, with respect to all the members here, why I suggested your mate sees a lawyer, rather than takes advice from an art forum.
When doing so, I would give two further pieces of advice.
First, make sure that you mate finds a solicitor who specialises in litigation, not someone who is a general practitioner (jack of all trades...). Second, do not be afraid to ask what the lawyers experience is, how long they have ben qualified etc, when making an appointment. Everyone has to start somewhere, but if you can avoid it, for several reasons, your mate is better off not hiring a lawyer that is newly qualified - go for someone with at least 5 years post qualification experience if possible.
Hope this helps, and hope your mate gets sorted.
c
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Warm Gun
Junior Member
Posts โข 4,646
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August 2009
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by Warm Gun on Dec 24, 2010 21:43:54 GMT 1, Bad news indeed, hope your mate sorts it out OK, let us know what happens.
Bad news indeed, hope your mate sorts it out OK, let us know what happens.
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by Coach on Dec 24, 2010 21:44:59 GMT 1, learned a bit from this thread...
Hmm - dont assume everything on this thread is correct.
learned a bit from this thread... Hmm - dont assume everything on this thread is correct. |
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by wizzy on Dec 24, 2010 21:53:05 GMT 1, First stop is a Solicitor no question.
First stop is a Solicitor no question.
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Deleted
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January 1970
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by Deleted on Dec 24, 2010 21:58:37 GMT 1, Like coach said - go and see a reputable solicitor - most local multi partner firms have someone who is nominated for litigation. I'd personally favour for this type of outfit rather than a sole practitioner who might specialise more in conveyancing.
Not cheap tho'
Like coach said - go and see a reputable solicitor - most local multi partner firms have someone who is nominated for litigation. I'd personally favour for this type of outfit rather than a sole practitioner who might specialise more in conveyancing.
Not cheap tho'
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andrewd
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,079
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September 2006
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by andrewd on Dec 24, 2010 22:08:44 GMT 1, The bottom line is that if it was stolen whoever sold it did not have the title to pass on. IMO it still belongs to Art Republic.
I would have thought that they would have been paid by bank if the credit card was stolen. Worth trying to negotiate something but looks like you've lost out on this one.
The bottom line is that if it was stolen whoever sold it did not have the title to pass on. IMO it still belongs to Art Republic.
I would have thought that they would have been paid by bank if the credit card was stolen. Worth trying to negotiate something but looks like you've lost out on this one.
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andrewd
Junior Member
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September 2006
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by andrewd on Dec 24, 2010 22:12:28 GMT 1, Oh and as for AR being rip off merchants I ummed and erred about my signed Gangster Rat and then found that it had been sold out from the 2005 Ghetto, AR obliged with a signed copy for about ยฃ200 just a few quid over what they went for.
Oh and as for AR being rip off merchants I ummed and erred about my signed Gangster Rat and then found that it had been sold out from the 2005 Ghetto, AR obliged with a signed copy for about ยฃ200 just a few quid over what they went for.
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Deleted
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January 1970
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by Deleted on Dec 24, 2010 22:24:27 GMT 1, Poor advice from Mr Frank as in litigation if you lose you pay the other parties costs.
Poor advice from Mr Frank as in litigation if you lose you pay the other parties costs.
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by Coach on Dec 24, 2010 22:30:53 GMT 1, Re cost - you will usually be able to find a solicitor that will do a free initial consultation if you shop around.
Re paying the other sides costs - not always - depends on the value of the claim.
Gosh, I must stop getting drawn into this thread.
See a litigation solicitor, that is a few years qualified, and a specialist, who offers a free initial consultation.
The end.
c
Re cost - you will usually be able to find a solicitor that will do a free initial consultation if you shop around.
Re paying the other sides costs - not always - depends on the value of the claim.
Gosh, I must stop getting drawn into this thread.
See a litigation solicitor, that is a few years qualified, and a specialist, who offers a free initial consultation.
The end.
c
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by fingerz on Dec 24, 2010 22:40:45 GMT 1, yeah stay out of it coach ... ... oh and merry xmas .... ;D
yeah stay out of it coach ... ... oh and merry xmas .... ;D |
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by Coach on Dec 24, 2010 22:51:47 GMT 1, yeah stay out of it coach ... ... oh and merry xmas .... ;D
Whoops, sorry.
happy Christmas to you and your family Fz's. I hope you all have a fabulous one.
c
yeah stay out of it coach ... ... oh and merry xmas .... ;D Whoops, sorry. happy Christmas to you and your family Fz's. I hope you all have a fabulous one. c |
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by Hanging Around on Dec 24, 2010 23:13:31 GMT 1, Oh and as for AR being rip off merchants I ummed and erred about my signed Gangster Rat and then found that it had been sold out from the 2005 Ghetto, AR obliged with a signed copy for about ยฃ200 just a few quid over what they went for.
maybe you will be a repeat customer 5 years on and buy an u/s virgin mary for ยฃ1700?
Oh and as for AR being rip off merchants I ummed and erred about my signed Gangster Rat and then found that it had been sold out from the 2005 Ghetto, AR obliged with a signed copy for about ยฃ200 just a few quid over what they went for. maybe you will be a repeat customer 5 years on and buy an u/s virgin mary for ยฃ1700? |
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alexnh123
New Member
Posts โข 851
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October 2007
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by alexnh123 on Dec 27, 2010 14:21:28 GMT 1, A lesson to all here. Hindsight is of course a wonderful thing, but my advice to anyone who wants to avoid a situation like this going forward would be to ensure the coa is obtained by the seller prior to buying the print from him. In short; buy the print with it's coa, this should not be something you apply for after when it's too late. pay with paypal, and think; there is no such thing as a free lunch. If you smell a rat don't risk it.
i would not give the print to art republic; of course they want this back, don't let them have it. Get independent advice. You will be seen in a better light if you approach a lawyer then police yourself, probably in that order i would imagine. Trace the seller on ebay, open a dispute; (i trust you haven't left feedback already and closed the transaction) and await the mail with sellers contact details. Present this to your lawyer etc... Good luck.
A lesson to all here. Hindsight is of course a wonderful thing, but my advice to anyone who wants to avoid a situation like this going forward would be to ensure the coa is obtained by the seller prior to buying the print from him. In short; buy the print with it's coa, this should not be something you apply for after when it's too late. pay with paypal, and think; there is no such thing as a free lunch. If you smell a rat don't risk it.
i would not give the print to art republic; of course they want this back, don't let them have it. Get independent advice. You will be seen in a better light if you approach a lawyer then police yourself, probably in that order i would imagine. Trace the seller on ebay, open a dispute; (i trust you haven't left feedback already and closed the transaction) and await the mail with sellers contact details. Present this to your lawyer etc... Good luck.
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maadbeats
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,272
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September 2007
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by maadbeats on Dec 27, 2010 15:11:49 GMT 1, also use a a credit card or paypal to make these transactions. face to face cash exchanges can be shady and hard to contest.
also use a a credit card or paypal to make these transactions. face to face cash exchanges can be shady and hard to contest.
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tobaum
Junior Member
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November 2009
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STOLEN PRINT WHAT TO DO, by tobaum on Dec 27, 2010 16:22:42 GMT 1, First thing to do is indeed to see a Solicitor.
You might be surprised so it might worth the try.
I'm not familiar with UK law so unfortunately I can't help.
But my first though would be that firstly the print was not stolen, the credit card was stolen but the print was sold. Price was finally not paid but that's a different thing.
Then your friend did not know about the situation and I guess he cannot have troubles for this.
But like I said, I'm not familiar with UK law so professionnal advies is required here.
First thing to do is indeed to see a Solicitor.
You might be surprised so it might worth the try.
I'm not familiar with UK law so unfortunately I can't help.
But my first though would be that firstly the print was not stolen, the credit card was stolen but the print was sold. Price was finally not paid but that's a different thing.
Then your friend did not know about the situation and I guess he cannot have troubles for this.
But like I said, I'm not familiar with UK law so professionnal advies is required here.
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, irregardless if he knew it was stolen or paid 1$ or a million rubles, or 500mm Turkish Lira. The important thing to remember here is THERE ARE NO MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCES TO AVOID PENALTY FOR RECEIVING STOLEN PROPERTY.
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