Moron
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March 2008
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by Moron on Jul 28, 2008 4:14:47 GMT 1, Well? Is the Graffiti art scene too saturated with artists selling their wares to sustain a healthy economy?
Discuss...
Well? Is the Graffiti art scene too saturated with artists selling their wares to sustain a healthy economy? Discuss...
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Heavyconsumer
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February 2008
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by Heavyconsumer on Jul 28, 2008 4:33:12 GMT 1, Hi mate, not sure I get the point really. Surely the more artists there are around, the better off the consumer is with more to choose from. I kind of agree that there are a LOT prints about, but the fact is, no-one is twisting our arms to buy them and they should each stand or fall on their own artistic merit imo. If they sell out, then so be it and if not then why should that lead to any greater consequence? When you refer to a healthy economy, again I don't really get your meaning. If people are discerning and buy what they like, does economics ever really enter the equation? Some prints will be oversubscribed while others will not and I don't see any real problem with more choice in the marketplace. If anything it should motivate artists and galleries to produce higher quality, to ensure success and perhaps even keep prices sensible (one would hope). Those who don't will be likely to fail in the long term.
Hi mate, not sure I get the point really. Surely the more artists there are around, the better off the consumer is with more to choose from. I kind of agree that there are a LOT prints about, but the fact is, no-one is twisting our arms to buy them and they should each stand or fall on their own artistic merit imo. If they sell out, then so be it and if not then why should that lead to any greater consequence? When you refer to a healthy economy, again I don't really get your meaning. If people are discerning and buy what they like, does economics ever really enter the equation? Some prints will be oversubscribed while others will not and I don't see any real problem with more choice in the marketplace. If anything it should motivate artists and galleries to produce higher quality, to ensure success and perhaps even keep prices sensible (one would hope). Those who don't will be likely to fail in the long term.
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mcster
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October 2007
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by mcster on Jul 28, 2008 8:00:30 GMT 1, IMO there can't be too many good artists ! I agree there is some pony stuff being released, but equally there is some really good stuff. Heathly competition is a good thing, whether it's art, music or players trying to break into your football team; it all leads to everyone having to try harder to be the best. Some prints may not be worth the paper they are written on as far as resale value goes, but if you like them and they look good on your wall does that really matter?
I only buy work by artists I've seen good street work from, as to me that represents some kind of pedigree. IMO, in years to come, when people look back on the 'classics of the street art era' these will be viewed in a better light than others that have attached themselves to the scene in order to sell a few prints.
IMO there can't be too many good artists ! I agree there is some pony stuff being released, but equally there is some really good stuff. Heathly competition is a good thing, whether it's art, music or players trying to break into your football team; it all leads to everyone having to try harder to be the best. Some prints may not be worth the paper they are written on as far as resale value goes, but if you like them and they look good on your wall does that really matter?
I only buy work by artists I've seen good street work from, as to me that represents some kind of pedigree. IMO, in years to come, when people look back on the 'classics of the street art era' these will be viewed in a better light than others that have attached themselves to the scene in order to sell a few prints.
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Avian Security
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November 2007
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by Avian Security on Jul 28, 2008 8:15:50 GMT 1, I really can't believe how many people are whining about there being 'too many artists' around. How that could conceivably be a bad thing I have no idea. Fuck the economy quite frankly.
I really can't believe how many people are whining about there being 'too many artists' around. How that could conceivably be a bad thing I have no idea. Fuck the economy quite frankly.
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by Oliver Winconek on Jul 28, 2008 8:33:52 GMT 1, If you are someone who loves Art for Arts sake, ie the pure aesthetic then what does it matter about the economy? As for there being too many Artists out there, in my opinion there can never be too many. The more the better, of course as an Artist it does make it harder to be original but that can only be a good thing, its healthy to be kept on your toes
If you are someone who loves Art for Arts sake, ie the pure aesthetic then what does it matter about the economy? As for there being too many Artists out there, in my opinion there can never be too many. The more the better, of course as an Artist it does make it harder to be original but that can only be a good thing, its healthy to be kept on your toes
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loucastel
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October 2007
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by loucastel on Jul 28, 2008 9:05:34 GMT 1, I really can't believe how many people are whining about there being 'too many artists' around. How that could conceivably be a bad thing I have no idea. f**k the economy quite frankly.
Loved that bit, what you perhaps dont realise is that if the economy goes belly up, ie, with prices for gas,electricity, food, fuel, constantly going up ,means less money for the avarage person to spend on luxury items, (art being one of them), doesnt really matter how many artists there are about, they will have to work even harder to compete for the small amount of money still available, sorting the good from the bad!!
I really can't believe how many people are whining about there being 'too many artists' around. How that could conceivably be a bad thing I have no idea. f**k the economy quite frankly. Loved that bit, what you perhaps dont realise is that if the economy goes belly up, ie, with prices for gas,electricity, food, fuel, constantly going up ,means less money for the avarage person to spend on luxury items, (art being one of them), doesnt really matter how many artists there are about, they will have to work even harder to compete for the small amount of money still available, sorting the good from the bad!!
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Avian Security
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November 2007
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by Avian Security on Jul 28, 2008 10:40:04 GMT 1, I really can't believe how many people are whining about there being 'too many artists' around. How that could conceivably be a bad thing I have no idea. f**k the economy quite frankly. Loved that bit, what you perhaps dont realise is that if the economy goes belly up, ie, with prices for gas,electricity, food, fuel, constantly going up ,means less money for the avarage person to spend on luxury items, (art being one of them), doesnt really matter how many artists there are about, they will have to work even harder to compete for the small amount of money still available, sorting the good from the bad!!
You miss the point. Graffiti artists and most street artists just put stuff up for fun, and sell it as an afterthought. If the economy goes 'belly up' the chances are there will be more of it about because more people will have more free time on their hands. So I say again. Fuck the economy. Thank you, I'm here all week.
I really can't believe how many people are whining about there being 'too many artists' around. How that could conceivably be a bad thing I have no idea. f**k the economy quite frankly. Loved that bit, what you perhaps dont realise is that if the economy goes belly up, ie, with prices for gas,electricity, food, fuel, constantly going up ,means less money for the avarage person to spend on luxury items, (art being one of them), doesnt really matter how many artists there are about, they will have to work even harder to compete for the small amount of money still available, sorting the good from the bad!! You miss the point. Graffiti artists and most street artists just put stuff up for fun, and sell it as an afterthought. If the economy goes 'belly up' the chances are there will be more of it about because more people will have more free time on their hands. So I say again. Fuck the economy. Thank you, I'm here all week.
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loucastel
Junior Member
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October 2007
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by loucastel on Jul 28, 2008 11:26:59 GMT 1, Loved that bit, what you perhaps dont realise is that if the economy goes belly up, ie, with prices for gas,electricity, food, fuel, constantly going up ,means less money for the avarage person to spend on luxury items, (art being one of them), doesnt really matter how many artists there are about, they will have to work even harder to compete for the small amount of money still available, sorting the good from the bad!! You miss the point. Graffiti artists and most street artists just put stuff up for fun, and sell it as an afterthought. If the economy goes 'belly up' the chances are there will be more of it about because more people will have more free time on their hands. So I say again. f**k the economy. Thank you, I'm here all week.
Oh the nievity of that statement, hope you get enough money from the dole to pay for paint!!! good luck!!
Loved that bit, what you perhaps dont realise is that if the economy goes belly up, ie, with prices for gas,electricity, food, fuel, constantly going up ,means less money for the avarage person to spend on luxury items, (art being one of them), doesnt really matter how many artists there are about, they will have to work even harder to compete for the small amount of money still available, sorting the good from the bad!! You miss the point. Graffiti artists and most street artists just put stuff up for fun, and sell it as an afterthought. If the economy goes 'belly up' the chances are there will be more of it about because more people will have more free time on their hands. So I say again. f**k the economy. Thank you, I'm here all week. Oh the nievity of that statement, hope you get enough money from the dole to pay for paint!!! good luck!!
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Avian Security
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November 2007
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by Avian Security on Jul 28, 2008 11:35:42 GMT 1, You miss the point. Graffiti artists and most street artists just put stuff up for fun, and sell it as an afterthought. If the economy goes 'belly up' the chances are there will be more of it about because more people will have more free time on their hands. So I say again. f**k the economy. Thank you, I'm here all week. Oh the nievity of that statement, hope you get enough money from the dole to pay for paint!!! good luck!!
Well if I don't then there's always dregs of housepaint available in skips. Or maybe I could go all Ofili and paint with shit. Where there's a will there's a way, as they say.
You miss the point. Graffiti artists and most street artists just put stuff up for fun, and sell it as an afterthought. If the economy goes 'belly up' the chances are there will be more of it about because more people will have more free time on their hands. So I say again. f**k the economy. Thank you, I'm here all week. Oh the nievity of that statement, hope you get enough money from the dole to pay for paint!!! good luck!! Well if I don't then there's always dregs of housepaint available in skips. Or maybe I could go all Ofili and paint with shit. Where there's a will there's a way, as they say.
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GVD
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April 2007
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by GVD on Jul 28, 2008 12:08:22 GMT 1, I couldnt care less, there wouldnt be any problem if people bought what they like. Its a problem for the investmetn value, but theres also a risk in buying stocks...
I think people hove to be glad more artists are trying to make their way to the public. More artists -> More choice -> Cheaper prices. I dont mind new arstists, as long they understand the value of their work and not overprice it "cause banksy also sells his wares for this price ".
But ti sucks for people who invest in art.
I couldnt care less, there wouldnt be any problem if people bought what they like. Its a problem for the investmetn value, but theres also a risk in buying stocks...
I think people hove to be glad more artists are trying to make their way to the public. More artists -> More choice -> Cheaper prices. I dont mind new arstists, as long they understand the value of their work and not overprice it "cause banksy also sells his wares for this price ".
But ti sucks for people who invest in art.
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by Daniel Silk on Jul 28, 2008 12:31:21 GMT 1, Some very good points raised here
Yeah, my view is the more Artists the better! ;D We must have at least twice the choice we had this time last year so that cant be a bad thing ;D Anyone trying to limit the market, by pickin and choosin what artists we get to see can only be doing so for Investment purposes.
Some very good points raised here Yeah, my view is the more Artists the better! ;D We must have at least twice the choice we had this time last year so that cant be a bad thing ;D Anyone trying to limit the market, by pickin and choosin what artists we get to see can only be doing so for Investment purposes.
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romanywg
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October 2006
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by romanywg on Jul 28, 2008 12:46:11 GMT 1, What do YOU think Moron?
Discuss....
What do YOU think Moron?
Discuss....
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by giiiant on Jul 28, 2008 13:13:05 GMT 1, wont make a difference... if half the artists selling their stuff were any good then maybe, but as it stands there is a clear divide between stuff worth having and stuff to ignore
wont make a difference... if half the artists selling their stuff were any good then maybe, but as it stands there is a clear divide between stuff worth having and stuff to ignore
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doughy
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May 2007
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by doughy on Jul 28, 2008 13:16:42 GMT 1, Fence siting here.....
If the ecomomy is poor, less galleries selling less print as there will be less demand, so the artists relying on print and originals also will get back less.
Those who couldn't give 2 figs whether it's all gone belly up don't care.
I also agree coming of the fence, that the more artists the better, as the wider range of styles, images, feelings in images we have.
And to be honest, some of the best stuff at the moment is from the new / up and coming peeps anyway, and most big / well-known names seem to be piping some real drivel. The More The Merrier, as prices in theory will be lower due to stiffer competition.
Fence siting here.....
If the ecomomy is poor, less galleries selling less print as there will be less demand, so the artists relying on print and originals also will get back less.
Those who couldn't give 2 figs whether it's all gone belly up don't care.
I also agree coming of the fence, that the more artists the better, as the wider range of styles, images, feelings in images we have.
And to be honest, some of the best stuff at the moment is from the new / up and coming peeps anyway, and most big / well-known names seem to be piping some real drivel. The More The Merrier, as prices in theory will be lower due to stiffer competition.
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lee3
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November 2009
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by lee3 on Jul 28, 2008 16:43:57 GMT 1, I'll be honest and I have given this a lot of thought probably because I have spent far more than most sane people spend on art. IMO, there was never a better time in human history to be an artist than during the past 20 years from a purely economic standpoint. I think we're near or past the peak of the market myself and that a steep correction is in order. I see no difference between the US tech bubble of the late 90s and the global housing bubble that the various central banks played a large role in perpetuating by lowering interet rates to low for too long. Just like housing and tech, art as an asset class doesn't hurt those that do not have exposure towards it. However, my fear is that we're in a no win situation from a global economic standpoint and politicians seems hellbent on preventing recessions of any kind during their terms.
There is no real evidence that speculators have vacated art as an asset class because Christie's and Sotheby's continue to turn out record numbers, but that day will come and when it does arrive, the speculators will flee en masse and the price charts of art will resemble tech and housing once thier respective bubbles burst. Of course, the higher prices affiliated with art attract more artists and if indeed we are at or past the peak, then lower prices and fewer allocations towards art will leave only the strongest artists standing.
Back to my worst fear for a moment and that is that the central banks continue to flood global money supplies coupled with low rates and the speculators naturally chase the asset class that they believe has the best chance for appreciation. To me, it seems rather obvious that asset class is commodities for the forseeable future. Commoditiy bubbles, unlike tech/housing/art DO hurt anyone who does not have exposure towards them because it's a double edged sword. People get squeezed by the falling prices of their homes while the rising cost of living perpetuated by a commodity boom hurts them on the other end and therefore the allocation to luxury items like art are among the first to go.
Certainly, there are works of art that are immune to price corrections but those are the works that none of us here own in our homes. I think any intelligent buyer must make sure they are not in debt of any kind or levered to an asset class if the worst case scenario outlined above becomes reality. Spend only what you can afford to lose completely on art and you'll be just fine. If you have spent more on art than you could stomach losing (i'll include myself in this category btu we all have our weaknesses), you're best hope is that art is treated like a viable currency or a commodity alternative to the decreasing purchasing power of the global fiat currencies in circulation today. If my worst fears aren't realized, then we'll all be just fine and dandy because the good times take care of themselves.
I'll be honest and I have given this a lot of thought probably because I have spent far more than most sane people spend on art. IMO, there was never a better time in human history to be an artist than during the past 20 years from a purely economic standpoint. I think we're near or past the peak of the market myself and that a steep correction is in order. I see no difference between the US tech bubble of the late 90s and the global housing bubble that the various central banks played a large role in perpetuating by lowering interet rates to low for too long. Just like housing and tech, art as an asset class doesn't hurt those that do not have exposure towards it. However, my fear is that we're in a no win situation from a global economic standpoint and politicians seems hellbent on preventing recessions of any kind during their terms.
There is no real evidence that speculators have vacated art as an asset class because Christie's and Sotheby's continue to turn out record numbers, but that day will come and when it does arrive, the speculators will flee en masse and the price charts of art will resemble tech and housing once thier respective bubbles burst. Of course, the higher prices affiliated with art attract more artists and if indeed we are at or past the peak, then lower prices and fewer allocations towards art will leave only the strongest artists standing.
Back to my worst fear for a moment and that is that the central banks continue to flood global money supplies coupled with low rates and the speculators naturally chase the asset class that they believe has the best chance for appreciation. To me, it seems rather obvious that asset class is commodities for the forseeable future. Commoditiy bubbles, unlike tech/housing/art DO hurt anyone who does not have exposure towards them because it's a double edged sword. People get squeezed by the falling prices of their homes while the rising cost of living perpetuated by a commodity boom hurts them on the other end and therefore the allocation to luxury items like art are among the first to go.
Certainly, there are works of art that are immune to price corrections but those are the works that none of us here own in our homes. I think any intelligent buyer must make sure they are not in debt of any kind or levered to an asset class if the worst case scenario outlined above becomes reality. Spend only what you can afford to lose completely on art and you'll be just fine. If you have spent more on art than you could stomach losing (i'll include myself in this category btu we all have our weaknesses), you're best hope is that art is treated like a viable currency or a commodity alternative to the decreasing purchasing power of the global fiat currencies in circulation today. If my worst fears aren't realized, then we'll all be just fine and dandy because the good times take care of themselves.
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eddiedangerous
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October 2007
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by eddiedangerous on Jul 28, 2008 18:12:33 GMT 1, nother thread kinda about this here: banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=22631&page=1
and my comment then:
People know that normal investments are gonna be very risky over the next few years so they are looking for alternatives. Urban Art seems to be about the only thing thats looking strong, so thats where they are spending the money, and [glow=red,2,300]with more and more doing the same [/glow]thing up, up, up!
sorry silks, i disagree. the lower end of the market seems to be in real trouble. the number of lots on ebay ending with out sale is rising by the day, with a general downward trend in prices for a lot of previously unstoppable artists.
I think you are correct in part, "more and more are doing the same" however fewer and fewer are going to reach their investment potential as the secondary market is being diluted by the ever rising number of artist, galleries, print runs and originals on the primary market.
This in turn will effect those "dabbling" in the urban art market finding themselves frozen out though inflation and rising costs elsewhere, having less cash left over to spend on either the primary or secondary markets.
Where "real" money is being invested 10k+ (but really 50k+) these investors (the ones most of these recent articles seem to be talking about) generally have such fortune that a recession wont effect them, and should they go on to sell the work, there will always be a buyer in the same bracket who has the cash and is equally uneffected by recession. When financial papers comment on the urban art scene they (imho) seem to be talking about your blue chip investors who invest several hundreds of times what the average Joe is capable of.
At this level art is essentially recession proof (in theory), but only because those participating are recession proof themselves, and artwork tend to work outside general inflation as we know it.
The market sub 10k (or 50k) will become more and more sketchy as investors at this lower end of the market attempt to recoup investments by selling art, there will be a lot less buyers for this work. It is generally not valued enough by those investors who are off chasing a Banksy canvas (at ยฃ300,000) as opposed to a "Trolly Hunter" print for example. This will lead to a downward trend in print prices (imo already evident), as to offload the print on the secondary market and regain your much needed capital you will have to settle for whatever you can get for it (everyone else being in the same boat as you).
I believe Bonhams have also latched onto this as they no longer except artwork for auction with a valuation less than 10k (correct me if i'm wrong!)
Things might change if China and America both wake up to our "urban art" scene and begin to buy in numbers at both ends of the market.
If you are purchasing work with a view to making financial gains in the short-term sub ยฃ10k then I would think long and hard about artwork you may be lumbered with, unable to sell for a profit, and in many cases unable to recoup original investments, becuase your potential buyers will generally be effected by the creditcrunch recession as much and in the same way you are.
Be careful out there, chose any pieces carefully!!! I dont have a crystal ball, but I read the papers and look at ebay and in my job see similar situations day in and day out of late in different maketplaces. I dont mean to be a doom and gloom merchant however I think pulling the wool over your eyes and just hoping its gonna go away might lead you into trouble, and much as I wish we weren't in this financial f**k-up....we sure are and its only gonna get worse, whatever you've heard!!!
(And yes I am a financial advisor!) ;D ;D
nother thread kinda about this here: banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=22631&page=1and my comment then: People know that normal investments are gonna be very risky over the next few years so they are looking for alternatives. Urban Art seems to be about the only thing thats looking strong, so thats where they are spending the money, and [glow=red,2,300]with more and more doing the same [/glow]thing up, up, up! sorry silks, i disagree. the lower end of the market seems to be in real trouble. the number of lots on ebay ending with out sale is rising by the day, with a general downward trend in prices for a lot of previously unstoppable artists. I think you are correct in part, "more and more are doing the same" however fewer and fewer are going to reach their investment potential as the secondary market is being diluted by the ever rising number of artist, galleries, print runs and originals on the primary market. This in turn will effect those "dabbling" in the urban art market finding themselves frozen out though inflation and rising costs elsewhere, having less cash left over to spend on either the primary or secondary markets. Where "real" money is being invested 10k+ (but really 50k+) these investors (the ones most of these recent articles seem to be talking about) generally have such fortune that a recession wont effect them, and should they go on to sell the work, there will always be a buyer in the same bracket who has the cash and is equally uneffected by recession. When financial papers comment on the urban art scene they (imho) seem to be talking about your blue chip investors who invest several hundreds of times what the average Joe is capable of. At this level art is essentially recession proof (in theory), but only because those participating are recession proof themselves, and artwork tend to work outside general inflation as we know it. The market sub 10k (or 50k) will become more and more sketchy as investors at this lower end of the market attempt to recoup investments by selling art, there will be a lot less buyers for this work. It is generally not valued enough by those investors who are off chasing a Banksy canvas (at ยฃ300,000) as opposed to a "Trolly Hunter" print for example. This will lead to a downward trend in print prices (imo already evident), as to offload the print on the secondary market and regain your much needed capital you will have to settle for whatever you can get for it (everyone else being in the same boat as you). I believe Bonhams have also latched onto this as they no longer except artwork for auction with a valuation less than 10k (correct me if i'm wrong!) Things might change if China and America both wake up to our "urban art" scene and begin to buy in numbers at both ends of the market. If you are purchasing work with a view to making financial gains in the short-term sub ยฃ10k then I would think long and hard about artwork you may be lumbered with, unable to sell for a profit, and in many cases unable to recoup original investments, becuase your potential buyers will generally be effected by the creditcrunch recession as much and in the same way you are. Be careful out there, chose any pieces carefully!!! I dont have a crystal ball, but I read the papers and look at ebay and in my job see similar situations day in and day out of late in different maketplaces. I dont mean to be a doom and gloom merchant however I think pulling the wool over your eyes and just hoping its gonna go away might lead you into trouble, and much as I wish we weren't in this financial f**k-up....we sure are and its only gonna get worse, whatever you've heard!!! (And yes I am a financial advisor!) ;D ;D
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by snausages on Jul 28, 2008 18:31:19 GMT 1, Anyone trying to limit the market, by pickin and choosin what artists we get to see can only be doing so for Investment purposes. More artists the better? Well ok, I'll go along with that to a degree.
I think more the point that's the problem here is that we have not just more artists, but many more artists riding the tide, cashing in, making boring art, making derivative art, ripped off art, etc. It's watering down not just the marketplace but the whole aesthetic and scene. It's getting repetitive and boring and stale and ruins the whole scene. Same thing happened with grunge, punk etc.
The more artists the better, ok I'm not going to argue with that. But the more bad artists and rip offs and artists cashing in on crap they didn't originate the worse.
It's easy to rip on those that talk about the financial aspect too, but it's that dream of getting the golden ticket or finding the next Banksy that will be worth millions that caused this outburst and when that dream starts to die so will this art scene.
Anyone trying to limit the market, by pickin and choosin what artists we get to see can only be doing so for Investment purposes. More artists the better? Well ok, I'll go along with that to a degree. I think more the point that's the problem here is that we have not just more artists, but many more artists riding the tide, cashing in, making boring art, making derivative art, ripped off art, etc. It's watering down not just the marketplace but the whole aesthetic and scene. It's getting repetitive and boring and stale and ruins the whole scene. Same thing happened with grunge, punk etc. The more artists the better, ok I'm not going to argue with that. But the more bad artists and rip offs and artists cashing in on crap they didn't originate the worse. It's easy to rip on those that talk about the financial aspect too, but it's that dream of getting the golden ticket or finding the next Banksy that will be worth millions that caused this outburst and when that dream starts to die so will this art scene.
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by ricosg11 on Jul 28, 2008 18:49:28 GMT 1, nother thread kinda about this here: banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=22631&page=1and my comment then: People know that normal investments are gonna be very risky over the next few years so they are looking for alternatives. Urban Art seems to be about the only thing thats looking strong, so thats where they are spending the money, and [glow=red,2,300]with more and more doing the same [/glow]thing up, up, up! sorry silks, i disagree. the lower end of the market seems to be in real trouble. the number of lots on ebay ending with out sale is rising by the day, with a general downward trend in prices for a lot of previously unstoppable artists. I think you are correct in part, "more and more are doing the same" however fewer and fewer are going to reach their investment potential as the secondary market is being diluted by the ever rising number of artist, galleries, print runs and originals on the primary market. This in turn will effect those "dabbling" in the urban art market finding themselves frozen out though inflation and rising costs elsewhere, having less cash left over to spend on either the primary or secondary markets. Where "real" money is being invested 10k+ (but really 50k+) these investors (the ones most of these recent articles seem to be talking about) generally have such fortune that a recession wont effect them, and should they go on to sell the work, there will always be a buyer in the same bracket who has the cash and is equally uneffected by recession. When financial papers comment on the urban art scene they (imho) seem to be talking about your blue chip investors who invest several hundreds of times what the average Joe is capable of. At this level art is essentially recession proof (in theory), but only because those participating are recession proof themselves, and artwork tend to work outside general inflation as we know it. The market sub 10k (or 50k) will become more and more sketchy as investors at this lower end of the market attempt to recoup investments by selling art, there will be a lot less buyers for this work. It is generally not valued enough by those investors who are off chasing a Banksy canvas (at ยฃ300,000) as opposed to a "Trolly Hunter" print for example. This will lead to a downward trend in print prices (imo already evident), as to offload the print on the secondary market and regain your much needed capital you will have to settle for whatever you can get for it (everyone else being in the same boat as you). I believe Bonhams have also latched onto this as they no longer except artwork for auction with a valuation less than 10k (correct me if i'm wrong!) Things might change if China and America both wake up to our "urban art" scene and begin to buy in numbers at both ends of the market. If you are purchasing work with a view to making financial gains in the short-term sub ยฃ10k then I would think long and hard about artwork you may be lumbered with, unable to sell for a profit, and in many cases unable to recoup original investments, becuase your potential buyers will generally be effected by the creditcrunch recession as much and in the same way you are. Be careful out there, chose any pieces carefully!!! I dont have a crystal ball, but I read the papers and look at ebay and in my job see similar situations day in and day out of late in different maketplaces. I dont mean to be a doom and gloom merchant however I think pulling the wool over your eyes and just hoping its gonna go away might lead you into trouble, and much as I wish we weren't in this financial f**k-up....we sure are and its only gonna get worse, whatever you've heard!!! (And yes I am a financial advisor!) ;D ;D
FINALLY, someone with some fucking sense on this forum.
nother thread kinda about this here: banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=22631&page=1and my comment then: People know that normal investments are gonna be very risky over the next few years so they are looking for alternatives. Urban Art seems to be about the only thing thats looking strong, so thats where they are spending the money, and [glow=red,2,300]with more and more doing the same [/glow]thing up, up, up! sorry silks, i disagree. the lower end of the market seems to be in real trouble. the number of lots on ebay ending with out sale is rising by the day, with a general downward trend in prices for a lot of previously unstoppable artists. I think you are correct in part, "more and more are doing the same" however fewer and fewer are going to reach their investment potential as the secondary market is being diluted by the ever rising number of artist, galleries, print runs and originals on the primary market. This in turn will effect those "dabbling" in the urban art market finding themselves frozen out though inflation and rising costs elsewhere, having less cash left over to spend on either the primary or secondary markets. Where "real" money is being invested 10k+ (but really 50k+) these investors (the ones most of these recent articles seem to be talking about) generally have such fortune that a recession wont effect them, and should they go on to sell the work, there will always be a buyer in the same bracket who has the cash and is equally uneffected by recession. When financial papers comment on the urban art scene they (imho) seem to be talking about your blue chip investors who invest several hundreds of times what the average Joe is capable of. At this level art is essentially recession proof (in theory), but only because those participating are recession proof themselves, and artwork tend to work outside general inflation as we know it. The market sub 10k (or 50k) will become more and more sketchy as investors at this lower end of the market attempt to recoup investments by selling art, there will be a lot less buyers for this work. It is generally not valued enough by those investors who are off chasing a Banksy canvas (at ยฃ300,000) as opposed to a "Trolly Hunter" print for example. This will lead to a downward trend in print prices (imo already evident), as to offload the print on the secondary market and regain your much needed capital you will have to settle for whatever you can get for it (everyone else being in the same boat as you). I believe Bonhams have also latched onto this as they no longer except artwork for auction with a valuation less than 10k (correct me if i'm wrong!) Things might change if China and America both wake up to our "urban art" scene and begin to buy in numbers at both ends of the market. If you are purchasing work with a view to making financial gains in the short-term sub ยฃ10k then I would think long and hard about artwork you may be lumbered with, unable to sell for a profit, and in many cases unable to recoup original investments, becuase your potential buyers will generally be effected by the creditcrunch recession as much and in the same way you are. Be careful out there, chose any pieces carefully!!! I dont have a crystal ball, but I read the papers and look at ebay and in my job see similar situations day in and day out of late in different maketplaces. I dont mean to be a doom and gloom merchant however I think pulling the wool over your eyes and just hoping its gonna go away might lead you into trouble, and much as I wish we weren't in this financial f**k-up....we sure are and its only gonna get worse, whatever you've heard!!! (And yes I am a financial advisor!) ;D ;D FINALLY, someone with some fucking sense on this forum.
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by James Smith 77 on Jul 28, 2008 18:57:04 GMT 1, nother thread kinda about this here: banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=22631&page=1and my comment then: sorry silks, i disagree. the lower end of the market seems to be in real trouble. the number of lots on ebay ending with out sale is rising by the day, with a general downward trend in prices for a lot of previously unstoppable artists. I think you are correct in part, "more and more are doing the same" however fewer and fewer are going to reach their investment potential as the secondary market is being diluted by the ever rising number of artist, galleries, print runs and originals on the primary market. This in turn will effect those "dabbling" in the urban art market finding themselves frozen out though inflation and rising costs elsewhere, having less cash left over to spend on either the primary or secondary markets. Where "real" money is being invested 10k+ (but really 50k+) these investors (the ones most of these recent articles seem to be talking about) generally have such fortune that a recession wont effect them, and should they go on to sell the work, there will always be a buyer in the same bracket who has the cash and is equally uneffected by recession. When financial papers comment on the urban art scene they (imho) seem to be talking about your blue chip investors who invest several hundreds of times what the average Joe is capable of. At this level art is essentially recession proof (in theory), but only because those participating are recession proof themselves, and artwork tend to work outside general inflation as we know it. The market sub 10k (or 50k) will become more and more sketchy as investors at this lower end of the market attempt to recoup investments by selling art, there will be a lot less buyers for this work. It is generally not valued enough by those investors who are off chasing a Banksy canvas (at ยฃ300,000) as opposed to a "Trolly Hunter" print for example. This will lead to a downward trend in print prices (imo already evident), as to offload the print on the secondary market and regain your much needed capital you will have to settle for whatever you can get for it (everyone else being in the same boat as you). I believe Bonhams have also latched onto this as they no longer except artwork for auction with a valuation less than 10k (correct me if i'm wrong!) Things might change if China and America both wake up to our "urban art" scene and begin to buy in numbers at both ends of the market. If you are purchasing work with a view to making financial gains in the short-term sub ยฃ10k then I would think long and hard about artwork you may be lumbered with, unable to sell for a profit, and in many cases unable to recoup original investments, becuase your potential buyers will generally be effected by the creditcrunch recession as much and in the same way you are. Be careful out there, chose any pieces carefully!!! I dont have a crystal ball, but I read the papers and look at ebay and in my job see similar situations day in and day out of late in different maketplaces. I dont mean to be a doom and gloom merchant however I think pulling the wool over your eyes and just hoping its gonna go away might lead you into trouble, and much as I wish we weren't in this financial f**k-up....we sure are and its only gonna get worse, whatever you've heard!!! (And yes I am a financial advisor!) ;D ;D FINALLY, someone with some f**king sense on this forum.
100% Agree. People are finally seeing...
nother thread kinda about this here: banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=22631&page=1and my comment then: sorry silks, i disagree. the lower end of the market seems to be in real trouble. the number of lots on ebay ending with out sale is rising by the day, with a general downward trend in prices for a lot of previously unstoppable artists. I think you are correct in part, "more and more are doing the same" however fewer and fewer are going to reach their investment potential as the secondary market is being diluted by the ever rising number of artist, galleries, print runs and originals on the primary market. This in turn will effect those "dabbling" in the urban art market finding themselves frozen out though inflation and rising costs elsewhere, having less cash left over to spend on either the primary or secondary markets. Where "real" money is being invested 10k+ (but really 50k+) these investors (the ones most of these recent articles seem to be talking about) generally have such fortune that a recession wont effect them, and should they go on to sell the work, there will always be a buyer in the same bracket who has the cash and is equally uneffected by recession. When financial papers comment on the urban art scene they (imho) seem to be talking about your blue chip investors who invest several hundreds of times what the average Joe is capable of. At this level art is essentially recession proof (in theory), but only because those participating are recession proof themselves, and artwork tend to work outside general inflation as we know it. The market sub 10k (or 50k) will become more and more sketchy as investors at this lower end of the market attempt to recoup investments by selling art, there will be a lot less buyers for this work. It is generally not valued enough by those investors who are off chasing a Banksy canvas (at ยฃ300,000) as opposed to a "Trolly Hunter" print for example. This will lead to a downward trend in print prices (imo already evident), as to offload the print on the secondary market and regain your much needed capital you will have to settle for whatever you can get for it (everyone else being in the same boat as you). I believe Bonhams have also latched onto this as they no longer except artwork for auction with a valuation less than 10k (correct me if i'm wrong!) Things might change if China and America both wake up to our "urban art" scene and begin to buy in numbers at both ends of the market. If you are purchasing work with a view to making financial gains in the short-term sub ยฃ10k then I would think long and hard about artwork you may be lumbered with, unable to sell for a profit, and in many cases unable to recoup original investments, becuase your potential buyers will generally be effected by the creditcrunch recession as much and in the same way you are. Be careful out there, chose any pieces carefully!!! I dont have a crystal ball, but I read the papers and look at ebay and in my job see similar situations day in and day out of late in different maketplaces. I dont mean to be a doom and gloom merchant however I think pulling the wool over your eyes and just hoping its gonna go away might lead you into trouble, and much as I wish we weren't in this financial f**k-up....we sure are and its only gonna get worse, whatever you've heard!!! (And yes I am a financial advisor!) ;D ;D FINALLY, someone with some f**king sense on this forum. 100% Agree. People are finally seeing...
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Winter
Junior Member
Posts โข 7,153
Likes โข 4,455
March 2007
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by Winter on Jul 28, 2008 19:33:05 GMT 1, I've worked out the best way of dealing with the increasing cost of energy is to hang your best pieces above your radiators. I've just hung my beautiful Peter Blake Union Jack over one and there's no way that's getting turned on. Thick jumpers rule!
I've worked out the best way of dealing with the increasing cost of energy is to hang your best pieces above your radiators. I've just hung my beautiful Peter Blake Union Jack over one and there's no way that's getting turned on. Thick jumpers rule!
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rhodesy2112
New Member
Posts โข 180
Likes โข 0
May 2006
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by rhodesy2112 on Jul 28, 2008 19:56:17 GMT 1, nother thread kinda about this here: banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=22631&page=1and my comment then: sorry silks, i disagree. the lower end of the market seems to be in real trouble. the number of lots on ebay ending with out sale is rising by the day, with a general downward trend in prices for a lot of previously unstoppable artists. I think you are correct in part, "more and more are doing the same" however fewer and fewer are going to reach their investment potential as the secondary market is being diluted by the ever rising number of artist, galleries, print runs and originals on the primary market. This in turn will effect those "dabbling" in the urban art market finding themselves frozen out though inflation and rising costs elsewhere, having less cash left over to spend on either the primary or secondary markets. Where "real" money is being invested 10k+ (but really 50k+) these investors (the ones most of these recent articles seem to be talking about) generally have such fortune that a recession wont effect them, and should they go on to sell the work, there will always be a buyer in the same bracket who has the cash and is equally uneffected by recession. When financial papers comment on the urban art scene they (imho) seem to be talking about your blue chip investors who invest several hundreds of times what the average Joe is capable of. At this level art is essentially recession proof (in theory), but only because those participating are recession proof themselves, and artwork tend to work outside general inflation as we know it. The market sub 10k (or 50k) will become more and more sketchy as investors at this lower end of the market attempt to recoup investments by selling art, there will be a lot less buyers for this work. It is generally not valued enough by those investors who are off chasing a Banksy canvas (at ยฃ300,000) as opposed to a "Trolly Hunter" print for example. This will lead to a downward trend in print prices (imo already evident), as to offload the print on the secondary market and regain your much needed capital you will have to settle for whatever you can get for it (everyone else being in the same boat as you). I believe Bonhams have also latched onto this as they no longer except artwork for auction with a valuation less than 10k (correct me if i'm wrong!) Things might change if China and America both wake up to our "urban art" scene and begin to buy in numbers at both ends of the market. If you are purchasing work with a view to making financial gains in the short-term sub ยฃ10k then I would think long and hard about artwork you may be lumbered with, unable to sell for a profit, and in many cases unable to recoup original investments, becuase your potential buyers will generally be effected by the creditcrunch recession as much and in the same way you are. Be careful out there, chose any pieces carefully!!! I dont have a crystal ball, but I read the papers and look at ebay and in my job see similar situations day in and day out of late in different maketplaces. I dont mean to be a doom and gloom merchant however I think pulling the wool over your eyes and just hoping its gonna go away might lead you into trouble, and much as I wish we weren't in this financial f**k-up....we sure are and its only gonna get worse, whatever you've heard!!! (And yes I am a financial advisor!) ;D ;D FINALLY, someone with some f**king sense on this forum.
Really?? so tell me what is the percentage mark up from the original price, for a Trolley Hunter currently standing at?? I still can't think of an investment that returns a mark up like a Banksy.....if that's what you're looking for... sounds like the kind of advice and analysis we should expect from a financial advisor...
nother thread kinda about this here: banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=22631&page=1and my comment then: sorry silks, i disagree. the lower end of the market seems to be in real trouble. the number of lots on ebay ending with out sale is rising by the day, with a general downward trend in prices for a lot of previously unstoppable artists. I think you are correct in part, "more and more are doing the same" however fewer and fewer are going to reach their investment potential as the secondary market is being diluted by the ever rising number of artist, galleries, print runs and originals on the primary market. This in turn will effect those "dabbling" in the urban art market finding themselves frozen out though inflation and rising costs elsewhere, having less cash left over to spend on either the primary or secondary markets. Where "real" money is being invested 10k+ (but really 50k+) these investors (the ones most of these recent articles seem to be talking about) generally have such fortune that a recession wont effect them, and should they go on to sell the work, there will always be a buyer in the same bracket who has the cash and is equally uneffected by recession. When financial papers comment on the urban art scene they (imho) seem to be talking about your blue chip investors who invest several hundreds of times what the average Joe is capable of. At this level art is essentially recession proof (in theory), but only because those participating are recession proof themselves, and artwork tend to work outside general inflation as we know it. The market sub 10k (or 50k) will become more and more sketchy as investors at this lower end of the market attempt to recoup investments by selling art, there will be a lot less buyers for this work. It is generally not valued enough by those investors who are off chasing a Banksy canvas (at ยฃ300,000) as opposed to a "Trolly Hunter" print for example. This will lead to a downward trend in print prices (imo already evident), as to offload the print on the secondary market and regain your much needed capital you will have to settle for whatever you can get for it (everyone else being in the same boat as you). I believe Bonhams have also latched onto this as they no longer except artwork for auction with a valuation less than 10k (correct me if i'm wrong!) Things might change if China and America both wake up to our "urban art" scene and begin to buy in numbers at both ends of the market. If you are purchasing work with a view to making financial gains in the short-term sub ยฃ10k then I would think long and hard about artwork you may be lumbered with, unable to sell for a profit, and in many cases unable to recoup original investments, becuase your potential buyers will generally be effected by the creditcrunch recession as much and in the same way you are. Be careful out there, chose any pieces carefully!!! I dont have a crystal ball, but I read the papers and look at ebay and in my job see similar situations day in and day out of late in different maketplaces. I dont mean to be a doom and gloom merchant however I think pulling the wool over your eyes and just hoping its gonna go away might lead you into trouble, and much as I wish we weren't in this financial f**k-up....we sure are and its only gonna get worse, whatever you've heard!!! (And yes I am a financial advisor!) ;D ;D FINALLY, someone with some f**king sense on this forum. Really?? so tell me what is the percentage mark up from the original price, for a Trolley Hunter currently standing at?? I still can't think of an investment that returns a mark up like a Banksy.....if that's what you're looking for... sounds like the kind of advice and analysis we should expect from a financial advisor...
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Winter
Junior Member
Posts โข 7,153
Likes โข 4,455
March 2007
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by Winter on Jul 28, 2008 20:09:07 GMT 1, LOL
LOL
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by Daniel Silk on Jul 28, 2008 20:15:11 GMT 1, I think the reason so many pieces not selling on ebay is that people are more clued up on the values than they were a few years back, and are pricing them around 10-20% over the true value plus we are getting many more chancer's with sky high BIN prices.
I think the reason so many pieces not selling on ebay is that people are more clued up on the values than they were a few years back, and are pricing them around 10-20% over the true value plus we are getting many more chancer's with sky high BIN prices.
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by crazyarsemother on Jul 28, 2008 20:22:19 GMT 1, Its never a good time for a bad artist.
Its never a good time for a bad artist.
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by felix on Jul 28, 2008 20:31:49 GMT 1, Supply and demand.
Supply and demand.
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leumasdarnley
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,650
Likes โข 49
May 2007
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by leumasdarnley on Jul 28, 2008 20:39:10 GMT 1, Its never a good time for a bad artist.
No truer words can be said
Its never a good time for a bad artist. No truer words can be said
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by felix on Jul 28, 2008 20:55:03 GMT 1, Its never a good time for a bad artist. No truer words can be said
Hmmm, would strongly disagree, bad artists have great times - mainly riding off the back of others.
Its never a good time for a bad artist. No truer words can be said Hmmm, would strongly disagree, bad artists have great times - mainly riding off the back of others.
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T.Magic
Artist
New Member
Posts โข 34
Likes โข 0
April 2008
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by T.Magic on Jul 28, 2008 21:00:27 GMT 1, Alot of good points raised. Here's my 2 cent:
I think its a great time for artists at the minute but they say what goes up always comes down. And what I mwan by that is that I personally don't think alot off the emerging (street) artists will survive in time. The really good and exceptional ones will have no problem.
Alot of good points raised. Here's my 2 cent:
I think its a great time for artists at the minute but they say what goes up always comes down. And what I mwan by that is that I personally don't think alot off the emerging (street) artists will survive in time. The really good and exceptional ones will have no problem.
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RedStarPress
Art Gallery
New Member
Posts โข 67
Likes โข 0
June 2008
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by RedStarPress on Jul 28, 2008 21:00:50 GMT 1, I don't know if this is relevant, but we keep a pretty close tabs to the Chinese Contemporary market and there is a common view by collectors and galleries that there may be a "bubble." We're seeing signs of auction bidders take loans from the auction house to pay for artwork which artificially inflates the value. At any given group show or exhibition in Beijing is filled with expats representing galleries from all over the world. It really is a madhouse. But, the fact is that Chinese art has made its mark in the global art world and those artists who have original and sought after artwork will be remembered. I think the same goes for the urban/graffiti art scene.
A comment was made about the "lower end". While there are Chinese artists that don't command high prices or sell out in minutes, all of them are participating in helping promote Chinese contemporary art. Sure, some people may view certain art as bad art, but, if you buy what you love you'll find that nothing else matters. This approach also removes a lot of stress and confusion.
Art Red Star Press www.redstarpress.com
I don't know if this is relevant, but we keep a pretty close tabs to the Chinese Contemporary market and there is a common view by collectors and galleries that there may be a "bubble." We're seeing signs of auction bidders take loans from the auction house to pay for artwork which artificially inflates the value. At any given group show or exhibition in Beijing is filled with expats representing galleries from all over the world. It really is a madhouse. But, the fact is that Chinese art has made its mark in the global art world and those artists who have original and sought after artwork will be remembered. I think the same goes for the urban/graffiti art scene. A comment was made about the "lower end". While there are Chinese artists that don't command high prices or sell out in minutes, all of them are participating in helping promote Chinese contemporary art. Sure, some people may view certain art as bad art, but, if you buy what you love you'll find that nothing else matters. This approach also removes a lot of stress and confusion. Art Red Star Press www.redstarpress.com
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raiden
New Member
Posts โข 512
Likes โข 3
April 2008
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Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by raiden on Jul 28, 2008 21:30:18 GMT 1, rhodesy2112, you write "I still can't think of an investment that returns a mark up like a Banksy....."
But I also can't think of many artists in the scene that haven't released a print since December!
Of course his prices are still going up, he hasn't flooded the market!
I absolutely agree that there is a speculative bubble in the art market, but the market for each artist is determined by a spectacularly complex number of variables.
While I see a general correction for the entire market - particularly for artists such as Warhol, whose prices are weakening - other artists may still increase in value during a downswing.
I wouldn't be shocked if Banksy prices held up well for a little discussed reason: namely the demographics of their collectors.
Banksy aficionados are generally young and have yet to reach an earning threshold that makes them serious buyers in the secondary art market. As these collectors - like me - reach the height of their earning potential - i.e. their 30s and 40s - they will snap up Banksy's as a status symbol, providing an upward pressure on prices, possibly even while the larger economy is weak.
I will point out, however, that with young artists, you can never be sure how their careers and decisions will affect their long term collectibility - nor can you predict public taste.
Dali was brilliant, but a similar situation as to what is happening right now occurred with Dali in the early 80s when he basically flooded the market with prints, such that now you can buy Dali prints for 1/10th their original price.
But the advice "Buy what you like" really is the best motto - because ironically I've discovered its tends to be a personal rephrasing of "supply and demand" as the prints I own that have appreciated the most are the ones I would least like to part with.
rhodesy2112, you write "I still can't think of an investment that returns a mark up like a Banksy....."
But I also can't think of many artists in the scene that haven't released a print since December!
Of course his prices are still going up, he hasn't flooded the market!
I absolutely agree that there is a speculative bubble in the art market, but the market for each artist is determined by a spectacularly complex number of variables.
While I see a general correction for the entire market - particularly for artists such as Warhol, whose prices are weakening - other artists may still increase in value during a downswing.
I wouldn't be shocked if Banksy prices held up well for a little discussed reason: namely the demographics of their collectors.
Banksy aficionados are generally young and have yet to reach an earning threshold that makes them serious buyers in the secondary art market. As these collectors - like me - reach the height of their earning potential - i.e. their 30s and 40s - they will snap up Banksy's as a status symbol, providing an upward pressure on prices, possibly even while the larger economy is weak.
I will point out, however, that with young artists, you can never be sure how their careers and decisions will affect their long term collectibility - nor can you predict public taste.
Dali was brilliant, but a similar situation as to what is happening right now occurred with Dali in the early 80s when he basically flooded the market with prints, such that now you can buy Dali prints for 1/10th their original price.
But the advice "Buy what you like" really is the best motto - because ironically I've discovered its tends to be a personal rephrasing of "supply and demand" as the prints I own that have appreciated the most are the ones I would least like to part with.
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