spencerlee
New Member
Posts โข 853
Likes โข 27
May 2006
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by spencerlee on Jul 28, 2008 21:41:08 GMT 1, Anyone trying to limit the market, by pickin and choosin what artists we get to see can only be doing so for Investment purposes.
Have I missed something, does this happen? Where? Is it galleries?
Anyone trying to limit the market, by pickin and choosin what artists we get to see can only be doing so for Investment purposes. Have I missed something, does this happen? Where? Is it galleries? |
|
|
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by weaver on Jul 28, 2008 21:52:05 GMT 1, I think its more, as people have said, the ammount of derivative drivel that folk have to wade through to see some decent developing tallent that puts alot of people off. There have been some great new artists apearing recently, but their spark is being subdued by the vast ammount of uninspired, overpriced tripe that certain establishments feel the need to continually foist upon us. Any artist worth their salt will sell, create a demand and establish a niche and fan base, over pricing and pointless hyping does more to damage this scene as it waters down the worthwhile with purile twee tat. IMO
I think its more, as people have said, the ammount of derivative drivel that folk have to wade through to see some decent developing tallent that puts alot of people off. There have been some great new artists apearing recently, but their spark is being subdued by the vast ammount of uninspired, overpriced tripe that certain establishments feel the need to continually foist upon us. Any artist worth their salt will sell, create a demand and establish a niche and fan base, over pricing and pointless hyping does more to damage this scene as it waters down the worthwhile with purile twee tat. IMO
|
|
|
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by graeme501 on Jul 28, 2008 22:07:49 GMT 1, how many people on this forum have in, say the last year, invested in art heavily on one piece at the magic ยฃ10k mark ? dont need to say what it is if u dont want to, but would be interesting to here
how many people on this forum have in, say the last year, invested in art heavily on one piece at the magic ยฃ10k mark ? dont need to say what it is if u dont want to, but would be interesting to here
|
|
|
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by weaver on Jul 28, 2008 22:23:22 GMT 1, yes, two over 5 and one over 10 in the last year, all banksy. Personally consider anything over 5K as a pretty major purchase.
yes, two over 5 and one over 10 in the last year, all banksy. Personally consider anything over 5K as a pretty major purchase.
|
|
afroken
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,018
Likes โข 29
February 2009
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by afroken on Jul 28, 2008 22:31:55 GMT 1, Choose artists that are starting out or early in their careers. If investment is your game then put your money where your mouth is and support young talent. If they make it big, you'll feel good about yourself for putting them there and a pension / inheritance for your kids. If they don't, you can still feel good about supporting young talent. You can't lose - one way or another you enrich your life. Easy!
Choose artists that are starting out or early in their careers. If investment is your game then put your money where your mouth is and support young talent. If they make it big, you'll feel good about yourself for putting them there and a pension / inheritance for your kids. If they don't, you can still feel good about supporting young talent. You can't lose - one way or another you enrich your life. Easy!
|
|
|
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by Daniel Silk on Jul 28, 2008 23:22:33 GMT 1, Anyone trying to limit the market, by pickin and choosin what artists we get to see can only be doing so for Investment purposes. Have I missed something, does this happen? Where? Is it galleries?
You will find people about who feel that their opinion of whats good art and whats bad art should override everyone else  My view is that everyone should be given the opportunity to make up their own minds without the scene being manipulated to suit certain views.
Anyone trying to limit the market, by pickin and choosin what artists we get to see can only be doing so for Investment purposes. Have I missed something, does this happen? Where? Is it galleries? You will find people about who feel that their opinion of whats good art and whats bad art should override everyone else My view is that everyone should be given the opportunity to make up their own minds without the scene being manipulated to suit certain views. |
|
|
|
|
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by crazyarsemother on Jul 29, 2008 0:04:51 GMT 1, Afroken this is very good advice. So lets run through that again, support young, innovative, progessive and questioning artists with drive and talent.
I could not agree more.
Afroken this is very good advice. So lets run through that again, support young, innovative, progessive and questioning artists with drive and talent.
I could not agree more.
|
|
|
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by Ron Goldsurfer on Jul 29, 2008 0:14:00 GMT 1, how many people on this forum have in, say the last year, invested in art heavily on one piece at the magic ยฃ10k mark ? dont need to say what it is if u dont want to, but would be interesting to here
Twice...
how many people on this forum have in, say the last year, invested in art heavily on one piece at the magic ยฃ10k mark ? dont need to say what it is if u dont want to, but would be interesting to here Twice... |
|
guest2
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,471
Likes โข 1
December 2006
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by guest2 on Jul 29, 2008 0:17:00 GMT 1, Choose artists that are starting out or early in their careers. If investment is your game then put your money where your mouth is and support young talent. If they make it big, you'll feel good about yourself for putting them there and a pension / inheritance for your kids. If they don't, you can still feel good about supporting young talent. You can't lose - one way or another you enrich your life. Easy!
Great advice, and if you are spending a small fortune choose artists by who represents them. For example, I'd buy a Os gemeos from Jeffrey Deitch any day of the week, you know Deitch will look after the artist and therefor your investment as opposed to this whole lame boom and bust mentality which has got out of control imo.
Of course, if you are super rich and can afford to blow 10's of thousands on art for the image alone then it don't make much difference. But lets have it right, if you do spend alot of money, it's nice to know should circumstances change you can cash in if you have to. No-body wants to half there money over night and it's bloody easy to do!
Choose your future, Choose life, choose Herakut, Rowdy and Mighty Mo... 
Choose artists that are starting out or early in their careers. If investment is your game then put your money where your mouth is and support young talent. If they make it big, you'll feel good about yourself for putting them there and a pension / inheritance for your kids. If they don't, you can still feel good about supporting young talent. You can't lose - one way or another you enrich your life. Easy! Great advice, and if you are spending a small fortune choose artists by who represents them. For example, I'd buy a Os gemeos from Jeffrey Deitch any day of the week, you know Deitch will look after the artist and therefor your investment as opposed to this whole lame boom and bust mentality which has got out of control imo. Of course, if you are super rich and can afford to blow 10's of thousands on art for the image alone then it don't make much difference. But lets have it right, if you do spend alot of money, it's nice to know should circumstances change you can cash in if you have to. No-body wants to half there money over night and it's bloody easy to do! Choose your future, Choose life, choose Herakut, Rowdy and Mighty Mo... |
|
|
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by crazyarsemother on Jul 29, 2008 0:18:16 GMT 1, charger great website. Is 610628 your old phone number? if so did you used to live in New Milton, Hampshire?
charger great website. Is 610628 your old phone number? if so did you used to live in New Milton, Hampshire?
|
|
Deleted
Posts โข 0
Likes โข
January 1970
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by Deleted on Jul 29, 2008 0:25:49 GMT 1, Frankie, you think that new is the way to look now?, Artists i mean.
Frankie, you think that new is the way to look now?, Artists i mean.
|
|
|
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by felix on Jul 29, 2008 0:31:45 GMT 1, Wizbong - I think at the end of the day you can get all the advice in the world but make the purchases for yourself as Afroken said 'put your money where your mouth is'. Don't eat your money though.
Wizbong - I think at the end of the day you can get all the advice in the world but make the purchases for yourself as Afroken said 'put your money where your mouth is'. Don't eat your money though.
|
|
RedStarPress
Art Gallery
New Member
Posts โข 67
Likes โข 0
June 2008
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by RedStarPress on Jul 29, 2008 0:34:53 GMT 1, I strongly suggest that you not eat your money. It doesn't taste very good.
I strongly suggest that you not eat your money. It doesn't taste very good.
|
|
Deleted
Posts โข 0
Likes โข
January 1970
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by Deleted on Jul 29, 2008 0:36:03 GMT 1, Yes true Felix, you are right, you have to look at it and live with it. I just wondered with new Artists coming along all the time whos work to really look at but then i suppose if you like it you like it!.
Yes true Felix, you are right, you have to look at it and live with it. I just wondered with new Artists coming along all the time whos work to really look at but then i suppose if you like it you like it!.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by graeme501 on Jul 29, 2008 0:44:47 GMT 1, 'Great advice, and if you are spending a small fortune choose artists by who represents them'
damn, i guess ill b cancelling my herakut order then
;D
'Great advice, and if you are spending a small fortune choose artists by who represents them'
damn, i guess ill b cancelling my herakut order then
;D
|
|
|
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by Ron Goldsurfer on Jul 29, 2008 0:45:16 GMT 1, charger great website. Is 610628 your old phone number? if so did you used to live in New Milton, Hampshire?
if you check further on my website you will notice that 610628 has nothing to do with phonenumbers... I think. And by the way, is New Milton in Hampshire a nice place?
charger great website. Is 610628 your old phone number? if so did you used to live in New Milton, Hampshire? if you check further on my website you will notice that 610628 has nothing to do with phonenumbers... I think. And by the way, is New Milton in Hampshire a nice place? |
|
|
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by felix on Jul 29, 2008 0:56:29 GMT 1, 'Great advice, and if you are spending a small fortune choose artists by who represents them' damn, i guess ill b cancelling my herakut order then ;D
True, not so sure about a guy who drinks special brew in the garden with his dog!
'Great advice, and if you are spending a small fortune choose artists by who represents them' damn, i guess ill b cancelling my herakut order then ;D True, not so sure about a guy who drinks special brew in the garden with his dog! |
|
|
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by felix on Jul 29, 2008 1:04:06 GMT 1,
(note the discarded can)
|
|
Deleted
Posts โข 0
Likes โข
January 1970
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by Deleted on Jul 29, 2008 1:06:35 GMT 1, Also there is an aerosol can! and an old pallet!..... Frankie is....EELUS!.
Also there is an aerosol can! and an old pallet!..... Frankie is....EELUS!.
|
|
ruat caelum
New Member
Posts โข 110
Likes โข 0
June 2007
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by ruat caelum on Jul 29, 2008 1:53:39 GMT 1, Have I missed something, does this happen? Where? Is it galleries? You will find people about who feel that their opinion of whats good art and whats bad art should override everyone else My view is that everyone should be given the opportunity to make up their own minds without the scene being manipulated to suit certain views.
Silky,
Did you read the posts by mose on the 'AMs work hanging...' thread? If so, what are your thoughts on his comments?
banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=23519&page=3#345295
My view is that his general advice that people should read more, learn more and discriminate more before parting with their hard-earned cash is very sound and very wise.
People buying art on this forum are often indebting themselves to do so through personal loans or credit cards (meaning they don't even have the cash, only the credit).
If I was in that position, I would welcome the opportunity to hear the opinions of others with more experience and knowledge than I had. It could help to stop me from making a very costly mistake I would later regret (and couldn't even really afford to make to begin with).
A novice may spot a beautiful piece that is technically accomplished. Their immediate reaction could be "Wow! I'm buying that!". However, what they may be completely oblivious to is the fact the work could also be wholly derivative and that, once the hype subsides, it may be worth less than the original purchase price.
You refer to the scene being "manipulated to suit certain views". What exactly do you mean by this?
There is one thing I can assure both you and other members of this forum: If there is any "manipulation" to be concerned about, it generally isn't coming from those who say "This work is crap."
Instead, the posts to be wary of are those which regularly describe pieces as "Stunning!", especially if they are coming from someone completely partial because of their vested interest. This would be the case, for example, if the person writing those posts was (due to their position and influence on Banksy.info) also receiving "complimentary" prints from the galleries selling those prints via the forum.
ruat caelum
Have I missed something, does this happen? Where? Is it galleries? You will find people about who feel that their opinion of whats good art and whats bad art should override everyone else My view is that everyone should be given the opportunity to make up their own minds without the scene being manipulated to suit certain views. Silky, Did you read the posts by mose on the 'AMs work hanging...' thread? If so, what are your thoughts on his comments? banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=23519&page=3#345295My view is that his general advice that people should read more, learn more and discriminate more before parting with their hard-earned cash is very sound and very wise. People buying art on this forum are often indebting themselves to do so through personal loans or credit cards (meaning they don't even have the cash, only the credit). If I was in that position, I would welcome the opportunity to hear the opinions of others with more experience and knowledge than I had. It could help to stop me from making a very costly mistake I would later regret (and couldn't even really afford to make to begin with). A novice may spot a beautiful piece that is technically accomplished. Their immediate reaction could be "Wow! I'm buying that!". However, what they may be completely oblivious to is the fact the work could also be wholly derivative and that, once the hype subsides, it may be worth less than the original purchase price. You refer to the scene being "manipulated to suit certain views". What exactly do you mean by this? There is one thing I can assure both you and other members of this forum: If there is any "manipulation" to be concerned about, it generally isn't coming from those who say "This work is crap." Instead, the posts to be wary of are those which regularly describe pieces as "Stunning!", especially if they are coming from someone completely partial because of their vested interest. This would be the case, for example, if the person writing those posts was (due to their position and influence on Banksy.info) also receiving "complimentary" prints from the galleries selling those prints via the forum. ruat caelum |
|
jamesreeve5
Blank Rank
Posts โข 0
Likes โข 0
September 2012
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by jamesreeve5 on Jul 29, 2008 7:27:28 GMT 1, You will find people about who feel that their opinion of whats good art and whats bad art should override everyone else My view is that everyone should be given the opportunity to make up their own minds without the scene being manipulated to suit certain views. Silky, Did you read the posts by mose on the 'AMs work hanging...' thread? If so, what are your thoughts on his comments? banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=23519&page=3#345295My view is that his general advice that people should read more, learn more and discriminate more before parting with their hard-earned cash is very sound and very wise. People buying art on this forum are often indebting themselves to do so through personal loans or credit cards (meaning they don't even have the cash, only the credit). If I was in that position, I would welcome the opportunity to hear the opinions of others with more experience and knowledge than I had. It could help to stop me from making a very costly mistake I would later regret (and couldn't even really afford to make to begin with). A novice may spot a beautiful piece that is technically accomplished. Their immediate reaction could be "Wow! I'm buying that!". However, what they may be completely oblivious to is the fact the work could also be wholly derivative and that, once the hype subsides, it may be worth less than the original purchase price. You refer to the scene being "manipulated to suit certain views". What exactly do you mean by this? There is one thing I can assure both you and other members of this forum: If there is any "manipulation" to be concerned about, it generally isn't coming from those who say "This work is crap." Instead, the posts to be wary of are those which regularly describe pieces as "Stunning!", especially if they are coming from someone completely partial because of their vested interest. This would be the case, for example, if the person writing those posts was (due to their position and influence on Banksy.info) also receiving "complimentary" prints from the galleries selling those prints via the forum. ruat caelum
I agree with Ruat and Mose's sentiments.
It is difficult to have a meaningful relationship with a piece of art that you purchase before ever seeing. And yet we all did this (myself included) for the recent Faile release (some people choosing nearly all of the fairqs just for the chance to own anything).
Any artist who commands upwards of $10k for works on paper would be expected to have an extensive CV of respectable international museum group and solo shows, and yet many of these artists (with the exception of a few such as Barry McGee) have no such resume.
The hype surrounding this movement, and in particular this board and others like it, create an inflated market for the work which is further exacerbated by the new galleries and artists, and old galleries and old artists keeping a steady flow of prints coming into the marketplace.
The frenzied buying of this marketplace, and the catch-22 dual attitudes of "I don't care if it becomes worthless because I'll keep it forever" and "If my tastes change I'll just trade it" that most board members here seem to have is cause for worry. And that worry is what Mose and Ruat are trying to articulate.
You will find people about who feel that their opinion of whats good art and whats bad art should override everyone else My view is that everyone should be given the opportunity to make up their own minds without the scene being manipulated to suit certain views. Silky, Did you read the posts by mose on the 'AMs work hanging...' thread? If so, what are your thoughts on his comments? banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=23519&page=3#345295My view is that his general advice that people should read more, learn more and discriminate more before parting with their hard-earned cash is very sound and very wise. People buying art on this forum are often indebting themselves to do so through personal loans or credit cards (meaning they don't even have the cash, only the credit). If I was in that position, I would welcome the opportunity to hear the opinions of others with more experience and knowledge than I had. It could help to stop me from making a very costly mistake I would later regret (and couldn't even really afford to make to begin with). A novice may spot a beautiful piece that is technically accomplished. Their immediate reaction could be "Wow! I'm buying that!". However, what they may be completely oblivious to is the fact the work could also be wholly derivative and that, once the hype subsides, it may be worth less than the original purchase price. You refer to the scene being "manipulated to suit certain views". What exactly do you mean by this? There is one thing I can assure both you and other members of this forum: If there is any "manipulation" to be concerned about, it generally isn't coming from those who say "This work is crap." Instead, the posts to be wary of are those which regularly describe pieces as "Stunning!", especially if they are coming from someone completely partial because of their vested interest. This would be the case, for example, if the person writing those posts was (due to their position and influence on Banksy.info) also receiving "complimentary" prints from the galleries selling those prints via the forum. ruat caelum I agree with Ruat and Mose's sentiments. It is difficult to have a meaningful relationship with a piece of art that you purchase before ever seeing. And yet we all did this (myself included) for the recent Faile release (some people choosing nearly all of the fairqs just for the chance to own anything). Any artist who commands upwards of $10k for works on paper would be expected to have an extensive CV of respectable international museum group and solo shows, and yet many of these artists (with the exception of a few such as Barry McGee) have no such resume. The hype surrounding this movement, and in particular this board and others like it, create an inflated market for the work which is further exacerbated by the new galleries and artists, and old galleries and old artists keeping a steady flow of prints coming into the marketplace. The frenzied buying of this marketplace, and the catch-22 dual attitudes of "I don't care if it becomes worthless because I'll keep it forever" and "If my tastes change I'll just trade it" that most board members here seem to have is cause for worry. And that worry is what Mose and Ruat are trying to articulate. |
|
eddiedangerous
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,600
Likes โข 40
October 2007
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by eddiedangerous on Jul 29, 2008 8:42:51 GMT 1, FINALLY, someone with some f**king sense on this forum. Really?? so tell me what is the percentage mark up from the original price, for a Trolley Hunter currently standing at?? I still can't think of an investment that returns a mark up like a Banksy.....if that's what you're looking for... sounds like the kind of advice and analysis we should expect from a financial advisor...
i dont know what your percentage mark up is on a trolly hunter, or where you are picking up enough of them from source to turn a decent profit in the secondary market?
FINALLY, someone with some f**king sense on this forum. Really?? so tell me what is the percentage mark up from the original price, for a Trolley Hunter currently standing at?? I still can't think of an investment that returns a mark up like a Banksy.....if that's what you're looking for... sounds like the kind of advice and analysis we should expect from a financial advisor... i dont know what your percentage mark up is on a trolly hunter, or where you are picking up enough of them from source to turn a decent profit in the secondary market? |
|
|
|
rhodesy2112
New Member
Posts โข 180
Likes โข 0
May 2006
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by rhodesy2112 on Jul 29, 2008 9:08:26 GMT 1, [
i dont know what your percentage mark up is on a trolly hunter, or where you are picking up enough of them from source to turn a decent profit in the secondary market?[/quote]
Eh?
[
i dont know what your percentage mark up is on a trolly hunter, or where you are picking up enough of them from source to turn a decent profit in the secondary market?[/quote]
Eh?
|
|
|
|
Artists saturated, Art Economy Unstable?, by Daniel Silk on Jul 29, 2008 10:49:41 GMT 1, You will find people about who feel that their opinion of whats good art and whats bad art should override everyone else My view is that everyone should be given the opportunity to make up their own minds without the scene being manipulated to suit certain views. Silky, Did you read the posts by mose on the 'AMs work hanging...' thread? If so, what are your thoughts on his comments? banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=23519&page=3#345295My view is that his general advice that people should read more, learn more and discriminate more before parting with their hard-earned cash is very sound and very wise. People buying art on this forum are often indebting themselves to do so through personal loans or credit cards (meaning they don't even have the cash, only the credit). If I was in that position, I would welcome the opportunity to hear the opinions of others with more experience and knowledge than I had. It could help to stop me from making a very costly mistake I would later regret (and couldn't even really afford to make to begin with). A novice may spot a beautiful piece that is technically accomplished. Their immediate reaction could be "Wow! I'm buying that!". However, what they may be completely oblivious to is the fact the work could also be wholly derivative and that, once the hype subsides, it may be worth less than the original purchase price. You refer to the scene being "manipulated to suit certain views". What exactly do you mean by this? There is one thing I can assure both you and other members of this forum: If there is any "manipulation" to be concerned about, it generally isn't coming from those who say "This work is crap." Instead, the posts to be wary of are those which regularly describe pieces as "Stunning!", especially if they are coming from someone completely partial because of their vested interest. This would be the case, for example, if the person writing those posts was (due to their position and influence on Banksy.info) also receiving "complimentary" prints from the galleries selling those prints via the forum. ruat caelum
Nah, other peoples opinions on an Artists work is never considered when I buy a piece If I like it, I like it! and thats that ;D Im the one thats gotta live with it on the wall so someone telling me how skilled the artists is, or what a strong back catalog he has makes no difference at all.
Judging by the number of pieces being resold I think a tad too many people are buying purely from recommendation  and then look back at it and think why the hell did I buy that? 
Its been said a million times before but - "Buy what YOU like" ;D
On another note - I NEVER say I like something I don't Galleries and Artists can butter me up all they like, Im not gonna come of here and support a piece that I don't like.
You will find people about who feel that their opinion of whats good art and whats bad art should override everyone else My view is that everyone should be given the opportunity to make up their own minds without the scene being manipulated to suit certain views. Silky, Did you read the posts by mose on the 'AMs work hanging...' thread? If so, what are your thoughts on his comments? banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=23519&page=3#345295My view is that his general advice that people should read more, learn more and discriminate more before parting with their hard-earned cash is very sound and very wise. People buying art on this forum are often indebting themselves to do so through personal loans or credit cards (meaning they don't even have the cash, only the credit). If I was in that position, I would welcome the opportunity to hear the opinions of others with more experience and knowledge than I had. It could help to stop me from making a very costly mistake I would later regret (and couldn't even really afford to make to begin with). A novice may spot a beautiful piece that is technically accomplished. Their immediate reaction could be "Wow! I'm buying that!". However, what they may be completely oblivious to is the fact the work could also be wholly derivative and that, once the hype subsides, it may be worth less than the original purchase price. You refer to the scene being "manipulated to suit certain views". What exactly do you mean by this? There is one thing I can assure both you and other members of this forum: If there is any "manipulation" to be concerned about, it generally isn't coming from those who say "This work is crap." Instead, the posts to be wary of are those which regularly describe pieces as "Stunning!", especially if they are coming from someone completely partial because of their vested interest. This would be the case, for example, if the person writing those posts was (due to their position and influence on Banksy.info) also receiving "complimentary" prints from the galleries selling those prints via the forum. ruat caelum Nah, other peoples opinions on an Artists work is never considered when I buy a piece If I like it, I like it! and thats that ;D Im the one thats gotta live with it on the wall so someone telling me how skilled the artists is, or what a strong back catalog he has makes no difference at all. Judging by the number of pieces being resold I think a tad too many people are buying purely from recommendation and then look back at it and think why the hell did I buy that? Its been said a million times before but - "Buy what YOU like" ;D On another note - I NEVER say I like something I don't Galleries and Artists can butter me up all they like, Im not gonna come of here and support a piece that I don't like. |
|
My view is that everyone should be given the opportunity to make up their own minds without the scene being manipulated to suit certain views.
and then look back at it and think why the hell did I buy that? 
