silvermyn
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Banksy CYW 100 Edition and Trolleys BETHLEHEM, by silvermyn on May 7, 2022 17:40:36 GMT 1, I've also owned the Bethlehem edition and it didn't appear to have any hand finishing on the handlebars. The PC COA made no reference to hand finishing either. Some websites do give out duff info so worth double checking.
Two great prints though. Hope you find a good home.
I've also owned the Bethlehem edition and it didn't appear to have any hand finishing on the handlebars. The PC COA made no reference to hand finishing either. Some websites do give out duff info so worth double checking.
Two great prints though. Hope you find a good home.
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silvermyn
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Backdoor Banksy Prints, by silvermyn on May 7, 2022 17:26:08 GMT 1, A gift print will have a present, heart, peace symbol, or a combination of one or more marked on the front. They are usually signed. Original owners of gift prints may even get a PC COA. A stolen print is a print that has been dishonestly misappropriated. This is a criminal matter and the prints remains the property of the legal owner. Backdoor prints get into circulation via the back door. Hence the terminology. It doesn't mean they were stolen but they are not part of the edition and are not prints gifted by the artist. Test prints are the prints Banksy left in shops when he was originally trying to find a distributor. The have the words "Test print" written on the front. I'd say the original thread title was correct IMHO. I know it's not an official print gifted by Banksy, but the op says it was given by someone who worked at pow. We can only go on what the op is saying, unless he has further proof of who the giver and receiver are. If you are saying that a backdoor is different to a stolen print, can you explain how? As far as I see it, if a print had to leave by the backdoor, then this was never authorised and as such should be classed as stolen
Backdoor prints are a grey area. Gift prints, stolen prints and test prints are in a black and white area.
In the grey area of backdoor prints you have prints that escaped via the back door of the print house or the artists studio. The printer may have had a misprint that wound up in a skip, or the studio felt it was an "off" print and gave it to the pizza delivery guy instead of a tip. That's why the story is important.
If the story can be backed up then you know where you stand. You're in the backdoor grey area. If the story turns out to be BS then you may well be in the stolen black and white area. If you find a print like this and scribble "Banksy" and a heart on the front, or the words "Test print", then you're in the black and white area of fraud.
A gift print will have a present, heart, peace symbol, or a combination of one or more marked on the front. They are usually signed. Original owners of gift prints may even get a PC COA. A stolen print is a print that has been dishonestly misappropriated. This is a criminal matter and the prints remains the property of the legal owner. Backdoor prints get into circulation via the back door. Hence the terminology. It doesn't mean they were stolen but they are not part of the edition and are not prints gifted by the artist. Test prints are the prints Banksy left in shops when he was originally trying to find a distributor. The have the words "Test print" written on the front. I'd say the original thread title was correct IMHO. I know it's not an official print gifted by Banksy, but the op says it was given by someone who worked at pow. We can only go on what the op is saying, unless he has further proof of who the giver and receiver are. If you are saying that a backdoor is different to a stolen print, can you explain how? As far as I see it, if a print had to leave by the backdoor, then this was never authorised and as such should be classed as stolen Backdoor prints are a grey area. Gift prints, stolen prints and test prints are in a black and white area. In the grey area of backdoor prints you have prints that escaped via the back door of the print house or the artists studio. The printer may have had a misprint that wound up in a skip, or the studio felt it was an "off" print and gave it to the pizza delivery guy instead of a tip. That's why the story is important. If the story can be backed up then you know where you stand. You're in the backdoor grey area. If the story turns out to be BS then you may well be in the stolen black and white area. If you find a print like this and scribble "Banksy" and a heart on the front, or the words "Test print", then you're in the black and white area of fraud.
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silvermyn
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Backdoor Banksy Prints, by silvermyn on May 7, 2022 16:17:16 GMT 1, You should probably change the title of this thread if it was a gifted print outside of the edition. The definition of 'backdoor' means that it was either stolen or dishonestly obtained
A gift print will have a present, heart, peace symbol, or a combination of one or more marked on the front. They are usually signed. Original owners of gift prints may even get a PC COA.
A stolen print is a print that has been dishonestly misappropriated. This is a criminal matter and the prints remains the property of the legal owner.
Backdoor prints get into circulation via the back door. Hence the terminology. It doesn't mean they were stolen but they are not part of the edition and are not prints gifted by the artist.
Test prints are the prints Banksy left in shops when he was originally trying to find a distributor. These have the words "Test print" written on the front.
I'd say the original thread title was correct IMHO.
You should probably change the title of this thread if it was a gifted print outside of the edition. The definition of 'backdoor' means that it was either stolen or dishonestly obtained A gift print will have a present, heart, peace symbol, or a combination of one or more marked on the front. They are usually signed. Original owners of gift prints may even get a PC COA. A stolen print is a print that has been dishonestly misappropriated. This is a criminal matter and the prints remains the property of the legal owner. Backdoor prints get into circulation via the back door. Hence the terminology. It doesn't mean they were stolen but they are not part of the edition and are not prints gifted by the artist. Test prints are the prints Banksy left in shops when he was originally trying to find a distributor. These have the words "Test print" written on the front. I'd say the original thread title was correct IMHO.
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silvermyn
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Backdoor Banksy Prints, by silvermyn on May 7, 2022 12:39:12 GMT 1,
Additional information about the artwork:
The print was given (not sold) to my friend, and from memory this was just after the print release sold out. It came via a relationship with someone directly connected to POW and was described at the time as an โoffโ print.
Print dimensions: 65.2 x 49.9mm
Condition โ there are three noticeable condition issues: 1. Darkening of the paper to the bottom LH 3rd. At some point the frame was damaged and the glass broke whilst being stored. The area that has discoloured is in the location of the broken piece of glass. 2. There are 3 noticeable marks that run vertically down the RH side to the right of the balloon. They appear to be at regular intervals and could possibly be why this print never made the grade? They are more noticeable on the rear. 3. The print is slightly wavey. I would guess this was due to the previous framing and humidity, although happy to be corrected.
That's great. The back story is incredibly important when building provenance, which will support its value.
Value wise, and due to the condition issues, I think it could be worth at least a couple of grand. Big auction houses would probably not want it without a PC COA. Maybe worth discussing with someone like Sworders? Check out some of the Banksy stuff they have sold in the past.
www.sworder.co.uk/
But it has to be worth more than the WCP version even with the damage. Not a retirement pot IMHO but you never know where an auction will take it.
Additional information about the artwork:
The print was given (not sold) to my friend, and from memory this was just after the print release sold out. It came via a relationship with someone directly connected to POW and was described at the time as an โoffโ print.
Print dimensions: 65.2 x 49.9mm
Condition โ there are three noticeable condition issues: 1. Darkening of the paper to the bottom LH 3rd. At some point the frame was damaged and the glass broke whilst being stored. The area that has discoloured is in the location of the broken piece of glass. 2. There are 3 noticeable marks that run vertically down the RH side to the right of the balloon. They appear to be at regular intervals and could possibly be why this print never made the grade? They are more noticeable on the rear. 3. The print is slightly wavey. I would guess this was due to the previous framing and humidity, although happy to be corrected.
That's great. The back story is incredibly important when building provenance, which will support its value. Value wise, and due to the condition issues, I think it could be worth at least a couple of grand. Big auction houses would probably not want it without a PC COA. Maybe worth discussing with someone like Sworders? Check out some of the Banksy stuff they have sold in the past. www.sworder.co.uk/But it has to be worth more than the WCP version even with the damage. Not a retirement pot IMHO but you never know where an auction will take it.
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silvermyn
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Backdoor Banksy Prints, by silvermyn on May 6, 2022 18:11:54 GMT 1, The print was gifted back in the day.
Gifted by whom?
What authority did they have to make the gift...?
The print was gifted back in the day. Gifted by whom? What authority did they have to make the gift...?
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silvermyn
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Backdoor Banksy Prints, by silvermyn on May 6, 2022 17:57:51 GMT 1, I've got a backdoor print which I don't consider to be stolen.
There were some throw away prints taped to the box lids of the prints sold at Barely Legal. After the editions sold out, somebody pestered the staff member to sell the throw aways taped to the box lids. Eventually, the staff member sold them to him.
Now, the prints were not meant to be sold and were not made for commercial purposes. They won't get a PC COA. However, they were sold at the show.
I can see the arguments either way but it's definitely not a straight forward black and white issue.
I've got a backdoor print which I don't consider to be stolen.
There were some throw away prints taped to the box lids of the prints sold at Barely Legal. After the editions sold out, somebody pestered the staff member to sell the throw aways taped to the box lids. Eventually, the staff member sold them to him.
Now, the prints were not meant to be sold and were not made for commercial purposes. They won't get a PC COA. However, they were sold at the show.
I can see the arguments either way but it's definitely not a straight forward black and white issue.
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silvermyn
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Choose your weapon OG at sothebys, by silvermyn on May 3, 2022 11:03:13 GMT 1,
Fantastic!
That looks like the one owned by lee3, unless I am mistaken.
Fantastic! That looks like the one owned by lee3, unless I am mistaken.
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silvermyn
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Digard Auctions โข Invader Exclusive Auctions โข PARIS ๐ซ๐ท , by silvermyn on May 2, 2022 15:16:46 GMT 1, From the link that someone provided above, we can see that it is not the same piece.ย On the other hand, the owner has it since the exhibition and did not try to sell it before.ย
I don't think the print we are referring to shows on that thread anymore. The picture was posted by JV on 7 October 2011 at 8.10pm but it no longer appears, at least on my device.
However if you are correct and this is a different print, then there is more than one handfinished but unsigned RC. The one for sale on here had red spray paint in the background. As I said before, that one had a few smudges.
From the link that someone provided above, we can see that it is not the same piece.ย On the other hand, the owner has it since the exhibition and did not try to sell it before.ย I don't think the print we are referring to shows on that thread anymore. The picture was posted by JV on 7 October 2011 at 8.10pm but it no longer appears, at least on my device. However if you are correct and this is a different print, then there is more than one handfinished but unsigned RC. The one for sale on here had red spray paint in the background. As I said before, that one had a few smudges.
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silvermyn
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Digard Auctions โข Invader Exclusive Auctions โข PARIS ๐ซ๐ท , by silvermyn on May 2, 2022 14:57:18 GMT 1, Hi There, The one we are presenting is not the one that was posted here a few years ago!
Hello.
That's interesting. If you don't mind me asking, how do you know it's not the same print that was for sale on here 12 years ago?
Thanks.
Hi There, The one we are presenting is not the one that was posted here a few years ago! Hello. That's interesting. If you don't mind me asking, how do you know it's not the same print that was for sale on here 12 years ago? Thanks.
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silvermyn
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Digard Auctions โข Invader Exclusive Auctions โข PARIS ๐ซ๐ท , by silvermyn on May 2, 2022 14:43:39 GMT 1, I'm pretty sure I was offered this RC by a member on here about 12 years ago. It was a bit of a dilemma at the time because it was hand finished but unsigned. The reason why we thought it may have been unsigned was that it was quite messy. There were a few smudges and we (the seller and I) speculated that Banksy might not have felt it was good enough to sign. The RC was Banksy's first print and I suspected that he may have been trying to keep the standard of the prints he signed as high as possible, or at least in keeping with the other hand finished prints that were signed. That was pure speculation on our behalf but it would explain why there is one hand finished RC print that was not signed. Seeing the auction estimate now makes me realise that not pulling the trigger at the time was another dumb ass decision by yours truly. Anything hand finished, no matter how messy, is worth adding to any collection. Yes Iโm sure this is the one that was for sale on here for ages with no takers at about ยฃ17k if I remember? Also Found this thread from ages ago: urbanartassociation.com/thread/93494/ltb-radar-rat-rude-copper
Yeah, it was JV's I think. Haven't seen him post for a while!
I've checked my PMs and he was looking for ยฃ10k when we were discussing it.
I'm pretty sure I was offered this RC by a member on here about 12 years ago. It was a bit of a dilemma at the time because it was hand finished but unsigned. The reason why we thought it may have been unsigned was that it was quite messy. There were a few smudges and we (the seller and I) speculated that Banksy might not have felt it was good enough to sign. The RC was Banksy's first print and I suspected that he may have been trying to keep the standard of the prints he signed as high as possible, or at least in keeping with the other hand finished prints that were signed. That was pure speculation on our behalf but it would explain why there is one hand finished RC print that was not signed. Seeing the auction estimate now makes me realise that not pulling the trigger at the time was another dumb ass decision by yours truly. Anything hand finished, no matter how messy, is worth adding to any collection. Yes Iโm sure this is the one that was for sale on here for ages with no takers at about ยฃ17k if I remember? Also Found this thread from ages ago: urbanartassociation.com/thread/93494/ltb-radar-rat-rude-copperYeah, it was JV's I think. Haven't seen him post for a while! I've checked my PMs and he was looking for ยฃ10k when we were discussing it.
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silvermyn
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Digard Auctions โข Invader Exclusive Auctions โข PARIS ๐ซ๐ท , by silvermyn on May 2, 2022 14:29:06 GMT 1, I'm pretty sure I was offered this RC by a member on here about 12 years ago. It was a bit of a dilemma at the time because it was hand finished but unsigned.
The reason why we thought it may have been unsigned was that it was quite messy. There were a few smudges and we (the seller and I) speculated that Banksy might not have felt it was good enough to sign. The RC was Banksy's first print and I suspected that he may have been trying to keep the standard of the prints he signed as high as possible, or at least in keeping with the other hand finished prints that were signed.
That was pure speculation on our behalf but it would explain why there is one hand finished RC print that was not signed.
Seeing the auction estimate now makes me realise that not pulling the trigger at the time was another dumb ass decision by yours truly. Anything hand finished, no matter how messy, is worth adding to any collection.
I'm pretty sure I was offered this RC by a member on here about 12 years ago. It was a bit of a dilemma at the time because it was hand finished but unsigned.
The reason why we thought it may have been unsigned was that it was quite messy. There were a few smudges and we (the seller and I) speculated that Banksy might not have felt it was good enough to sign. The RC was Banksy's first print and I suspected that he may have been trying to keep the standard of the prints he signed as high as possible, or at least in keeping with the other hand finished prints that were signed.
That was pure speculation on our behalf but it would explain why there is one hand finished RC print that was not signed.
Seeing the auction estimate now makes me realise that not pulling the trigger at the time was another dumb ass decision by yours truly. Anything hand finished, no matter how messy, is worth adding to any collection.
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silvermyn
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Banksy โข Flower Thrower โข Love is in the Air, by silvermyn on Mar 15, 2022 13:17:42 GMT 1, APs fall into two camps IMHO. Firstly, there are those with variations to the main edition. These APs are, in some respects, more desirable. Secondly, you have APs that are no different to the main edition. These have a whiff of "surplus prints being knocked out for mates" about them. Personally, less desirable for me than the main edition.
Each to their own I guess but I really can't see the attraction in APs that don't have variations.
APs fall into two camps IMHO. Firstly, there are those with variations to the main edition. These APs are, in some respects, more desirable. Secondly, you have APs that are no different to the main edition. These have a whiff of "surplus prints being knocked out for mates" about them. Personally, less desirable for me than the main edition. Each to their own I guess but I really can't see the attraction in APs that don't have variations.
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silvermyn
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Without a PC COA a price tag of $150k is a little ambitious. On the plus side, postage of ยฃ36.95 seems quite reasonable.
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silvermyn
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Banksy โข Sale Ends Today, by silvermyn on Jan 25, 2022 19:23:22 GMT 1, The 2 unsigned sets I saw had an appalling Trollies that had missing ink because I believe the screens got contaminated and the Applause had problems too. I wanted to do a deal for one of the sets but in the end only really wanted Destroy Capitalism as the general print quality didnโt look great. I still know of this set and itโs still for sale so I will try to get a photo if I can.
Did those sets have a COA from PC?
The 2 unsigned sets I saw had an appalling Trollies that had missing ink because I believe the screens got contaminated and the Applause had problems too. I wanted to do a deal for one of the sets but in the end only really wanted Destroy Capitalism as the general print quality didnโt look great. I still know of this set and itโs still for sale so I will try to get a photo if I can. Did those sets have a COA from PC?
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silvermyn
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Banksy โข Sale Ends Today, by silvermyn on Jan 25, 2022 12:39:06 GMT 1, In my opinion the printing on the Modern Multiples ones I have seen, 2 sets unsigned, is nowhere as good as the v2 version. I still think this print in the current climate is sub 50k and thatโs why I bought one at 45k. If you take it to auction that is the amount you are likely to take home.
The quality of the Modern Multiples prints was better than the quality achieved by POW IMHO. I can't comment on Sale Ends because I haven't seen them side by side but LA Trolleys is much better quality than the POW version.
In my opinion the printing on the Modern Multiples ones I have seen, 2 sets unsigned, is nowhere as good as the v2 version. I still think this print in the current climate is sub 50k and thatโs why I bought one at 45k. If you take it to auction that is the amount you are likely to take home. The quality of the Modern Multiples prints was better than the quality achieved by POW IMHO. I can't comment on Sale Ends because I haven't seen them side by side but LA Trolleys is much better quality than the POW version.
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silvermyn
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Banksy โข Sale Ends Today, by silvermyn on Jan 25, 2022 12:28:14 GMT 1, I don't think there were a "fair few signed gifted prints". My understanding is that Banksy signed a handful for VIPs at the LA show and that was it. Just checked and 10 signed APs, 6 signed PP and unknown signed but thought to be teens apparently ๐คทโโ๏ธ And thatโs a great YouTube video โ๏ธ
I don't think that info is correct.
I've discussed the LA prints in some detail with somebody who worked for POW and was working at the LA show. There are very few (about half a dozen) signed LA prints outside of the signed sets. I believe that the number signed actually varies from print to print.
Have a look and see how many signed LA prints you can see in past sales. They don't come up often because there aren't that many out there.
I don't think there were a "fair few signed gifted prints". My understanding is that Banksy signed a handful for VIPs at the LA show and that was it. Just checked and 10 signed APs, 6 signed PP and unknown signed but thought to be teens apparently ๐คทโโ๏ธ And thatโs a great YouTube video โ๏ธ I don't think that info is correct. I've discussed the LA prints in some detail with somebody who worked for POW and was working at the LA show. There are very few (about half a dozen) signed LA prints outside of the signed sets. I believe that the number signed actually varies from print to print. Have a look and see how many signed LA prints you can see in past sales. They don't come up often because there aren't that many out there.
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silvermyn
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Banksy โข Sale Ends Today, by silvermyn on Jan 24, 2022 23:22:38 GMT 1, The signed PP's were an edition of six.
There were also a small amount of regular signed sets sold and gifted.
There were 6 PPs sets of 6 definitely. As for the others gifted sets and APs itโs never been clear. I had always thought there were 14 AP sets and a fair few signed gifted prints.
I don't think there were a "fair few signed gifted prints".
My understanding is that Banksy signed a handful for VIPs at the LA show and that was it.
The signed PP's were an edition of six.
There were also a small amount of regular signed sets sold and gifted.
There were 6 PPs sets of 6 definitely. As for the others gifted sets and APs itโs never been clear. I had always thought there were 14 AP sets and a fair few signed gifted prints. I don't think there were a "fair few signed gifted prints". My understanding is that Banksy signed a handful for VIPs at the LA show and that was it.
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silvermyn
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Banksy Bristol TShirt โข Colston Four, by silvermyn on Dec 11, 2021 12:13:30 GMT 1,
Looks torn at the bottom. Funky
Can anyone confirm?
Looks torn at the bottom. Funky Can anyone confirm?
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silvermyn
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silvermyn
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Signed Banksy Purchase with no PC, by silvermyn on Nov 20, 2021 12:51:52 GMT 1, Robin Bartin as in Robin Hood Gallery. A street pieces which has been sold through the gallery was the slave labour piece. Didnโt Ron English buy this piece? Ron is pretty tight with Banksy so Iโm guessing Banksy must have been cool about this piece being sold. Or maybe the piece was not sold at all and agreement between the two were made. Either way if Banksy was ok about a particular street piece being sold we would know about it and Iโm sure Banksy would decide this prior to any street piece creation. That's interesting. I've not heard of PC confirming in writing that a work is a genuine Banksy but then refusing to issue a COA. Normally they just say that they can't confirm whether it is or isn't a Banksy. My guess is that you are probably back to the situation where you have an street piece that the artist is not willing to "officially" confirm as being his work. An email from PC offers some comfort but from a buyer's perspective an email is an easy thing to construct or fake. The only other means of authenticating a work is to have pictures of the work in situ with unique marks corresponding to the piece you have. That plus the email may convince a buyer but I doubt they will offer the high ticket price you would be looking for. Have you spoken to Robin Barton? He deals in pieces that get removed from walls that PC will in no way authenticate. There's a link on him below. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_BartonAs an auctioneer, you should probably avoid doing anything with this sculpture publicly. You're in the murky world of dealing with work the artist didn't want to be taken or sold on. If you want any sort of working relationship with PC then try and help the seller by pointing him/her in the right direction and don't tar your name with the same brush that Robin has, unless you want to go down that road. F.Y.I. Robin's not very popular on here. Presumably you are aware that Ron English didn't purchase that piece because he wanted to own a street piece by Banksy. He bought it so that he could destroy it and make a point about street pieces being privatised.
hyperallergic.com/471758/ron-english-plans-to-whitewash-a-730000-banksy-and-then-sell-it/
In fairness there must be very few people out there looking to spend ยฃ100,000s on a Banksy original street piece just so they can destroy it.
Robin Bartin as in Robin Hood Gallery. A street pieces which has been sold through the gallery was the slave labour piece. Didnโt Ron English buy this piece? Ron is pretty tight with Banksy so Iโm guessing Banksy must have been cool about this piece being sold. Or maybe the piece was not sold at all and agreement between the two were made. Either way if Banksy was ok about a particular street piece being sold we would know about it and Iโm sure Banksy would decide this prior to any street piece creation. That's interesting. I've not heard of PC confirming in writing that a work is a genuine Banksy but then refusing to issue a COA. Normally they just say that they can't confirm whether it is or isn't a Banksy. My guess is that you are probably back to the situation where you have an street piece that the artist is not willing to "officially" confirm as being his work. An email from PC offers some comfort but from a buyer's perspective an email is an easy thing to construct or fake. The only other means of authenticating a work is to have pictures of the work in situ with unique marks corresponding to the piece you have. That plus the email may convince a buyer but I doubt they will offer the high ticket price you would be looking for. Have you spoken to Robin Barton? He deals in pieces that get removed from walls that PC will in no way authenticate. There's a link on him below. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_BartonAs an auctioneer, you should probably avoid doing anything with this sculpture publicly. You're in the murky world of dealing with work the artist didn't want to be taken or sold on. If you want any sort of working relationship with PC then try and help the seller by pointing him/her in the right direction and don't tar your name with the same brush that Robin has, unless you want to go down that road. F.Y.I. Robin's not very popular on here. Presumably you are aware that Ron English didn't purchase that piece because he wanted to own a street piece by Banksy. He bought it so that he could destroy it and make a point about street pieces being privatised. hyperallergic.com/471758/ron-english-plans-to-whitewash-a-730000-banksy-and-then-sell-it/In fairness there must be very few people out there looking to spend ยฃ100,000s on a Banksy original street piece just so they can destroy it.
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silvermyn
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April 2008
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Signed Banksy Purchase with no PC, by silvermyn on Nov 20, 2021 10:00:22 GMT 1, I think you need to make a clear distinction between works capable of qualifying for a COA (commercial works) that haven't yet been certified, and those pieces incapable of being certified (street pieces). Commercial pieces, GDP works, without COAs have sold recently through Tate Modern. I don't think they were 50% less than they would be with the COA. I guess we'll never know because there were no certified versions to compare prices with. Sale Ends V2 were fetching decent prices without COAs. When COAs became available the market had jumped so a like for like comparison cannot be made there either. Street pieces tend to go way below commercial pieces primarily because the artist won't ever confirm it's his work. Prices reflect that. My question was more to do with his street pieces, specifically sculptures, how comfortable do you think people would be buying one? PC will not issue any certificates for any street works, however if I had correspondence from PC confirming it was a Banksy, but with no di faced tenner, would that be enough? That's interesting. I've not heard of PC confirming in writing that a work is a genuine Banksy but then refusing to issue a COA. Normally they just say that they can't confirm whether it is or isn't a Banksy.
My guess is that you are probably back to the situation where you have an street piece that the artist is not willing to "officially" confirm as being his work. An email from PC offers some comfort but from a buyer's perspective an email is an easy thing to construct or fake.
The only other means of authenticating a work is to have pictures of the work in situ with unique marks corresponding to the piece you have. That plus the email may convince a buyer but I doubt they will offer the high ticket price you would be looking for.
Have you spoken to Robin Barton? He deals in pieces that get removed from walls that PC will in no way authenticate. There's a link on him below.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Barton
As an auctioneer, you should probably avoid doing anything with this sculpture publicly. You're in the murky world of dealing with work the artist didn't want to be taken or sold on. If you want any sort of working relationship with PC then try and help the seller by pointing him/her in the right direction and don't tar your name with the same brush that Robin has, unless you want to go down that road. F.Y.I. Robin's not very popular on here.
I think you need to make a clear distinction between works capable of qualifying for a COA (commercial works) that haven't yet been certified, and those pieces incapable of being certified (street pieces). Commercial pieces, GDP works, without COAs have sold recently through Tate Modern. I don't think they were 50% less than they would be with the COA. I guess we'll never know because there were no certified versions to compare prices with. Sale Ends V2 were fetching decent prices without COAs. When COAs became available the market had jumped so a like for like comparison cannot be made there either. Street pieces tend to go way below commercial pieces primarily because the artist won't ever confirm it's his work. Prices reflect that. My question was more to do with his street pieces, specifically sculptures, how comfortable do you think people would be buying one? PC will not issue any certificates for any street works, however if I had correspondence from PC confirming it was a Banksy, but with no di faced tenner, would that be enough? That's interesting. I've not heard of PC confirming in writing that a work is a genuine Banksy but then refusing to issue a COA. Normally they just say that they can't confirm whether it is or isn't a Banksy. My guess is that you are probably back to the situation where you have an street piece that the artist is not willing to "officially" confirm as being his work. An email from PC offers some comfort but from a buyer's perspective an email is an easy thing to construct or fake. The only other means of authenticating a work is to have pictures of the work in situ with unique marks corresponding to the piece you have. That plus the email may convince a buyer but I doubt they will offer the high ticket price you would be looking for. Have you spoken to Robin Barton? He deals in pieces that get removed from walls that PC will in no way authenticate. There's a link on him below. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_BartonAs an auctioneer, you should probably avoid doing anything with this sculpture publicly. You're in the murky world of dealing with work the artist didn't want to be taken or sold on. If you want any sort of working relationship with PC then try and help the seller by pointing him/her in the right direction and don't tar your name with the same brush that Robin has, unless you want to go down that road. F.Y.I. Robin's not very popular on here.
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silvermyn
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,611
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April 2008
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Signed Banksy Purchase with no PC, by silvermyn on Nov 18, 2021 18:50:02 GMT 1, How do gift prints fall into this? I have a signed plackard gift rat with email from pow neither confirming or denying etcโฆ came from a well respected gallery that is still doing very well. Has provenance, just not coa ๐คท๐ผโโ๏ธ
Very generally speaking and all IMHO;
A gift print may qualify for a COA, if you are the person it was gifted to. I've seen some gift prints with COAs, as well as charity gift prints with COAs. Second owners,in your situation, don't stand a chance of getting a COA for a gift that was intended for someone else.
Generally, gift prints with named dedications on (e.g. "Thanks Thomas") don't get COAs, even if you are the original owner. I do, however, recall seeing a Kate Moss with a dedication to Rosie (I think) with a COA.
Bottom line is, I think it would very much depend on how much the artist or his team value you, and the circumstances of the application. There are no hard and fast rules with gift print.
I'm sure somebody with more knowledge will correct me if any of the above is incorrect.
How do gift prints fall into this? I have a signed plackard gift rat with email from pow neither confirming or denying etcโฆ came from a well respected gallery that is still doing very well. Has provenance, just not coa ๐คท๐ผโโ๏ธ Very generally speaking and all IMHO; A gift print may qualify for a COA, if you are the person it was gifted to. I've seen some gift prints with COAs, as well as charity gift prints with COAs. Second owners,in your situation, don't stand a chance of getting a COA for a gift that was intended for someone else. Generally, gift prints with named dedications on (e.g. "Thanks Thomas") don't get COAs, even if you are the original owner. I do, however, recall seeing a Kate Moss with a dedication to Rosie (I think) with a COA. Bottom line is, I think it would very much depend on how much the artist or his team value you, and the circumstances of the application. There are no hard and fast rules with gift print. I'm sure somebody with more knowledge will correct me if any of the above is incorrect.
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silvermyn
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,611
Likes โข 781
April 2008
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Signed Banksy Purchase with no PC, by silvermyn on Nov 18, 2021 14:04:58 GMT 1, In my experience as an auctioneer, commercial works, i.e prints or paintings made by Banksy for sale without a PC cert tend to go for almost half what they should had they got a cert. How do we all feel about his non-commercial or street works coming in for sale? Im not talking about things that have been chiselled off a wall, but things like his sculptures etc providing you have full and clear provenance?
I think you need to make a clear distinction between works capable of qualifying for a COA (commercial works) that haven't yet been certified, and those pieces incapable of being certified (street pieces).
Commercial pieces, GDP works, without COAs have sold recently through Tate Modern. I don't think they were 50% less than they would be with the COA. I guess we'll never know because there were no certified versions to compare prices with. Sale Ends V2 were fetching decent prices without COAs. When COAs became available the market had jumped so a like for like comparison cannot be made there either.
Street pieces tend to go way below commercial pieces primarily because the artist won't ever confirm it's his work. Prices reflect that.
In my experience as an auctioneer, commercial works, i.e prints or paintings made by Banksy for sale without a PC cert tend to go for almost half what they should had they got a cert. How do we all feel about his non-commercial or street works coming in for sale? Im not talking about things that have been chiselled off a wall, but things like his sculptures etc providing you have full and clear provenance? I think you need to make a clear distinction between works capable of qualifying for a COA (commercial works) that haven't yet been certified, and those pieces incapable of being certified (street pieces). Commercial pieces, GDP works, without COAs have sold recently through Tate Modern. I don't think they were 50% less than they would be with the COA. I guess we'll never know because there were no certified versions to compare prices with. Sale Ends V2 were fetching decent prices without COAs. When COAs became available the market had jumped so a like for like comparison cannot be made there either. Street pieces tend to go way below commercial pieces primarily because the artist won't ever confirm it's his work. Prices reflect that.
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silvermyn
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,611
Likes โข 781
April 2008
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Signed Banksy Purchase with no PC, by silvermyn on Nov 16, 2021 23:54:51 GMT 1, Thoughts on Banksy Purchase with no PC If you had the chance of picking up a Banksy print that had no pest control, but you knew the owner, who is also the original owner. (I remember when they purchased the 2 prints. 1 from POW website and the other 1 was purchased queuing up several years later.) How would one price these prints compared to the same prints with PC? (Mint condition) Myself and the original owner are in agreement that the value is worth less than current market value but how much less is the hard question? The likelihood isโฆ If I buy the prints, I wonโt be able to get provenance for them for at least a couple years. If I am forced to sell them in that time then I will be faced with the same situation as the current owner, unable to get the full market value. Obviously the current market value is in my favour so is the fact the prints do no currently have pc and I know they are real. To be clear I am not looking to sell the prints on behalf of anybody. I am after advice on how to value prints which do not have PC thanks in advance.ย
Vandamme - buy them, if you are sure that they are genuine. You have the original owners name. Get the address the owner lived when they bought the print and any receipts/proof of purchase. Original tubes etc.
If you need to sell, take them to one of the big auction houses (Sotheby's or Christie's) and they will get a very quick response from PC. They usually list them as COA pending. It's the same advice I would give the owner if he had asked.
If I was the original owner, I would be offering a very tiny discount for a lack of COA. I'd offer you like 5% tops, depending on the image.
Which prints are they, if you don't mind me asking? DM if you don't want to go public. I'll keep it to myself.
And above all good luck with whatever you decide.
Thoughts on Banksy Purchase with no PC If you had the chance of picking up a Banksy print that had no pest control, but you knew the owner, who is also the original owner. (I remember when they purchased the 2 prints. 1 from POW website and the other 1 was purchased queuing up several years later.) How would one price these prints compared to the same prints with PC? (Mint condition) Myself and the original owner are in agreement that the value is worth less than current market value but how much less is the hard question? The likelihood isโฆ If I buy the prints, I wonโt be able to get provenance for them for at least a couple years. If I am forced to sell them in that time then I will be faced with the same situation as the current owner, unable to get the full market value. Obviously the current market value is in my favour so is the fact the prints do no currently have pc and I know they are real. To be clear I am not looking to sell the prints on behalf of anybody. I am after advice on how to value prints which do not have PC thanks in advance.ย Vandamme - buy them, if you are sure that they are genuine. You have the original owners name. Get the address the owner lived when they bought the print and any receipts/proof of purchase. Original tubes etc. If you need to sell, take them to one of the big auction houses (Sotheby's or Christie's) and they will get a very quick response from PC. They usually list them as COA pending. It's the same advice I would give the owner if he had asked. If I was the original owner, I would be offering a very tiny discount for a lack of COA. I'd offer you like 5% tops, depending on the image. Which prints are they, if you don't mind me asking? DM if you don't want to go public. I'll keep it to myself. And above all good luck with whatever you decide.
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silvermyn
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,611
Likes โข 781
April 2008
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Banksy on the Beeb, by silvermyn on Nov 10, 2021 22:38:09 GMT 1, Okay. Where is that wall at...
Okay. Where is that wall at...
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silvermyn
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,611
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April 2008
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Sotheby's Art Auctions โข NEW YORK ๐บ๐ฒ, by silvermyn on Nov 8, 2021 12:50:54 GMT 1, I've owned most of the Trolleys prints over the years (excluding the PPs) but this is the Holy Grail for me.
www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2021/the-now-evening-auction/trolley-hunters
Can't quite stretch to the low estimate but if anyone feels the Christmas spirit come early, please, keep me in mind!
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silvermyn
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,611
Likes โข 781
April 2008
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East Bristol Auctions today, by silvermyn on Oct 31, 2021 14:10:30 GMT 1, I noticed that too. Years and years ago may simply mean 4-5 years ago. It would be interesting to see what the COA says about the date of the print. My theory is that PC do still generate/issue prints even now of images from back in the day for friends. Banksy's original signature was a son of a bitch to duplicate (for example, see the I Fought The Law signature at this auction) so the current simpler version was created IMHO to allow assistants to sign on behalf of the artist. The first time we saw the new signature was around the time the 750 signed Trolleys came out. There is no way Banksy sat there and signed 750 prints on top of the 4x150s from the LA set. No frigging way. Besides, there was a white plate signature on the coloured Trolleys that could be used to fill in the signature; something that Banksy himself wouldn't have needed. It's decent of Banksy to do that sort of stuff for his mates, and even better when those mates donate the piece to a good cause. Well done Mr Marshall. Respect. "There is no way Banksy sat there and signed 750 prints on top of the 4x150s from the LA set. No frigging way." Damien Hirst hand signs way more than that each year.ย
Spread throughout the year that's understandable.
The 750 Colour Trolleys edition and the 400 or so POW versions of the LA prints were dropped on a single day, from what I recall.
That's at least 1,100 signatures for one release. The man would have RSI me thinks...
I noticed that too. Years and years ago may simply mean 4-5 years ago. It would be interesting to see what the COA says about the date of the print. My theory is that PC do still generate/issue prints even now of images from back in the day for friends. Banksy's original signature was a son of a bitch to duplicate (for example, see the I Fought The Law signature at this auction) so the current simpler version was created IMHO to allow assistants to sign on behalf of the artist. The first time we saw the new signature was around the time the 750 signed Trolleys came out. There is no way Banksy sat there and signed 750 prints on top of the 4x150s from the LA set. No frigging way. Besides, there was a white plate signature on the coloured Trolleys that could be used to fill in the signature; something that Banksy himself wouldn't have needed. It's decent of Banksy to do that sort of stuff for his mates, and even better when those mates donate the piece to a good cause. Well done Mr Marshall. Respect. "There is no way Banksy sat there and signed 750 prints on top of the 4x150s from the LA set. No frigging way." Damien Hirst hand signs way more than that each year.ย Spread throughout the year that's understandable. The 750 Colour Trolleys edition and the 400 or so POW versions of the LA prints were dropped on a single day, from what I recall. That's at least 1,100 signatures for one release. The man would have RSI me thinks...
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silvermyn
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,611
Likes โข 781
April 2008
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East Bristol Auctions today, by silvermyn on Oct 29, 2021 21:27:56 GMT 1, Itโs interesting that the Bomb Middle England has a new style sig even though he says he was gifted it years and years ago. Maybe Banksy signed this for the auction? It also has the B and the peace symbol on the left
I noticed that too. Years and years ago may simply mean 4-5 years ago. It would be interesting to see what the COA says about the date of the print.
My theory is that PC do still generate/issue prints even now of images from back in the day for friends. Banksy's original signature was a son of a bitch to duplicate (for example, see the IFTL signature at this auction) so the current simpler version was created IMHO to allow assistants to sign on behalf of the artist.
The first time we saw the new signature was around the time the 750 signed Trolleys came out. There is no way Banksy sat there and signed 750 prints on top of the 4x150s from the LA set. No frigging way. Besides, there was a white plate signature on the coloured Trolleys that could be used to fill in the signature; something that Banksy himself wouldn't have needed.
It's decent of Banksy to do that sort of stuff for his mates, and even better when those mates donate the piece to a good cause. Well done Mr Marshall. Respect.
Itโs interesting that the Bomb Middle England has a new style sig even though he says he was gifted it years and years ago. Maybe Banksy signed this for the auction? It also has the B and the peace symbol on the left I noticed that too. Years and years ago may simply mean 4-5 years ago. It would be interesting to see what the COA says about the date of the print. My theory is that PC do still generate/issue prints even now of images from back in the day for friends. Banksy's original signature was a son of a bitch to duplicate (for example, see the IFTL signature at this auction) so the current simpler version was created IMHO to allow assistants to sign on behalf of the artist. The first time we saw the new signature was around the time the 750 signed Trolleys came out. There is no way Banksy sat there and signed 750 prints on top of the 4x150s from the LA set. No frigging way. Besides, there was a white plate signature on the coloured Trolleys that could be used to fill in the signature; something that Banksy himself wouldn't have needed. It's decent of Banksy to do that sort of stuff for his mates, and even better when those mates donate the piece to a good cause. Well done Mr Marshall. Respect.
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silvermyn
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,611
Likes โข 781
April 2008
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East Bristol Auctions today, by silvermyn on Oct 29, 2021 18:22:48 GMT 1,
Are these signed Banksy prints really going to sell for less than ยฃ30k each? Presumably not but my credit card is on standby.
One hour to go.
Are these signed Banksy prints really going to sell for less than ยฃ30k each? Presumably not but my credit card is on standby. One hour to go.
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