|
Brexit
Dec 5, 2018 19:58:02 GMT 1
via mobile
Brexit, by Daylight Robber on Dec 5, 2018 19:58:02 GMT 1, Not everyone who voted for Brexit was a racist but you can pretty much guarantee every racist who voted, voted for Brexit. The education factor has been researched substantially by the University of Leicester and they established that those with low levels of education were more likely to vote leave and those with higher levels, remain. All that said, the 'remainer media' has been pretty much none existent. Must make it so much harder to swallow knowing you lost to a bunch of uneducated racist morons.
Yep.
Not everyone who voted for Brexit was a racist but you can pretty much guarantee every racist who voted, voted for Brexit. The education factor has been researched substantially by the University of Leicester and they established that those with low levels of education were more likely to vote leave and those with higher levels, remain. All that said, the 'remainer media' has been pretty much none existent. Must make it so much harder to swallow knowing you lost to a bunch of uneducated racist morons. Yep.
|
|
25127096
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 570
๐๐ป 402
December 2013
|
Brexit
Dec 5, 2018 21:15:31 GMT 1
via mobile
Brexit, by 25127096 on Dec 5, 2018 21:15:31 GMT 1, To be fair, because all the remainer media has repeated a million times that the real motives from brexiters are racisms and low level education. So, your point is not really significative. Not everyone who voted for Brexit was a racist but you can pretty much guarantee every racist who voted, voted for Brexit. The education factor has been researched substantially by the University of Leicester and they established that those with low levels of education were more likely to vote leave and those with higher levels, remain. All that said, the 'remainer media' has been pretty much none existent.
Iโll just leave this here
To be fair, because all the remainer media has repeated a million times that the real motives from brexiters are racisms and low level education. So, your point is not really significative. Not everyone who voted for Brexit was a racist but you can pretty much guarantee every racist who voted, voted for Brexit. The education factor has been researched substantially by the University of Leicester and they established that those with low levels of education were more likely to vote leave and those with higher levels, remain. All that said, the 'remainer media' has been pretty much none existent. Iโll just leave this here
|
|
Chris JL
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,766
๐๐ป 1,852
March 2017
|
Brexit, by Chris JL on Dec 6, 2018 0:03:14 GMT 1, (The majority did not vote to leave anyway... but thatโs irrelevant) The key is that democracy and majoritarianism are two VERY different concepts (worth checking Wikipedia), albeit the trend - a very dangerous one tbh - is to blur the line between the two concepts. The majority, who bothered to go out and vote, voted to leave. That's all that matters. You can't count those people who didn't vote. No government is ever voted in to office by the majority of its citizens - unless there is compulsory voting, of course.
Wikipedia - highly recommended (but the library is even better)
(The majority did not vote to leave anyway... but thatโs irrelevant) The key is that democracy and majoritarianism are two VERY different concepts (worth checking Wikipedia), albeit the trend - a very dangerous one tbh - is to blur the line between the two concepts. The majority, who bothered to go out and vote, voted to leave. That's all that matters. You can't count those people who didn't vote. No government is ever voted in to office by the majority of its citizens - unless there is compulsory voting, of course. Wikipedia - highly recommended (but the library is even better)
|
|
Chris JL
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,766
๐๐ป 1,852
March 2017
|
Brexit, by Chris JL on Dec 6, 2018 0:05:33 GMT 1, IMHO this is not all that matters. Every person that voted to leave, voted on the basis of information that was available to them (or thrust upon them by the Daily Mail) at the time. A lot of it was BS but see link below for specific BS.
www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2018/mar/28/11-brexit-promises-leavers-quietly-dropped
Does it not matter at all to you that the information put before voters was largely a pile of toss? Maybe there are leave voters out there that feel they have a much clearer understanding of the realities of BREXIT but can't do anything about it now.
We all know lies were spread during the run up to the Brexit referendum. But, strange as it may seem, most Brexiters still want to leave the EU. They don't care about the lies. They just want us to leave and be an independent country again. Even if it means the UK will be poorer, they still want to leave. I am a Remainer, by the way. I only say these things as I think many people don't realise the mindset of Brexiters.
Several millions have changed their mind according to most reliable estimates (but I guess not in your local pub).
IMHO this is not all that matters. Every person that voted to leave, voted on the basis of information that was available to them (or thrust upon them by the Daily Mail) at the time. A lot of it was BS but see link below for specific BS.
www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2018/mar/28/11-brexit-promises-leavers-quietly-dropped
Does it not matter at all to you that the information put before voters was largely a pile of toss? Maybe there are leave voters out there that feel they have a much clearer understanding of the realities of BREXIT but can't do anything about it now.
We all know lies were spread during the run up to the Brexit referendum. But, strange as it may seem, most Brexiters still want to leave the EU. They don't care about the lies. They just want us to leave and be an independent country again. Even if it means the UK will be poorer, they still want to leave. I am a Remainer, by the way. I only say these things as I think many people don't realise the mindset of Brexiters. Several millions have changed their mind according to most reliable estimates (but I guess not in your local pub).
|
|
caruso
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,181
๐๐ป 818
August 2017
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 0:54:10 GMT 1
Brexit, by caruso on Dec 6, 2018 0:54:10 GMT 1, I have had some totally surreal conversations with British people who argued GB is still ruling the world, somehow. Also, every leaver I spoke to is very quick to mention it was not a racist vote. Err, right, then why is it the first thing you mention to me? To be fair, because all the remainer media has repeated a million times that the real motives from brexiters are racisms and low level education. So, your point is not really significative. You tend to forget one thing, I am a foreigner living in this country for many years, I have eyes and a brain and I make up my opinion as I witness events unfold. I speak 4 languages and read the press from 4 or 5 different countries but unlike you cannot tell you the headline of 'The Sun' today. So yeah, that's that.
I have had some totally surreal conversations with British people who argued GB is still ruling the world, somehow. Also, every leaver I spoke to is very quick to mention it was not a racist vote. Err, right, then why is it the first thing you mention to me? To be fair, because all the remainer media has repeated a million times that the real motives from brexiters are racisms and low level education. So, your point is not really significative. You tend to forget one thing, I am a foreigner living in this country for many years, I have eyes and a brain and I make up my opinion as I witness events unfold. I speak 4 languages and read the press from 4 or 5 different countries but unlike you cannot tell you the headline of 'The Sun' today. So yeah, that's that.
|
|
Masong
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,223
๐๐ป 2,887
March 2017
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 1:00:22 GMT 1
via mobile
Brexit, by Masong on Dec 6, 2018 1:00:22 GMT 1, To be fair, because all the remainer media has repeated a million times that the real motives from brexiters are racisms and low level education. So, your point is not really significative. You tend to forget one thing, I am a foreigner living in this country for many years, I have eyes and a brain and I make up my opinion as I witness events unfold. I speak 4 languages and read the press from 4 or 5 different countries, so yeah, that's that.
Wow you remainers are so far more superior than those morons that voted leave. If only they were all like you.
To be fair, because all the remainer media has repeated a million times that the real motives from brexiters are racisms and low level education. So, your point is not really significative. You tend to forget one thing, I am a foreigner living in this country for many years, I have eyes and a brain and I make up my opinion as I witness events unfold. I speak 4 languages and read the press from 4 or 5 different countries, so yeah, that's that. Wow you remainers are so far more superior than those morons that voted leave. If only they were all like you.
|
|
|
Leo Boyd
Artist
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,475
๐๐ป 2,088
June 2016
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 2:36:50 GMT 1
Brexit, by Leo Boyd on Dec 6, 2018 2:36:50 GMT 1, Iโll just leave this here It was only a matter of time before fking Peterson got brought into it. Sweet lord we are doomed.
Iโll just leave this here It was only a matter of time before fking Peterson got brought into it. Sweet lord we are doomed.
|
|
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 5:55:51 GMT 1
via mobile
Brexit, by Daylight Robber on Dec 6, 2018 5:55:51 GMT 1, You tend to forget one thing, I am a foreigner living in this country for many years, I have eyes and a brain and I make up my opinion as I witness events unfold. I speak 4 languages and read the press from 4 or 5 different countries, so yeah, that's that. Wow you remainers are so far more superior than those morons that voted leave. If only they were all like you.
Most popular UK search terms on Google, the day AFTER the referendum - 'What is the EU?' & 'What is Brexit?'
You tend to forget one thing, I am a foreigner living in this country for many years, I have eyes and a brain and I make up my opinion as I witness events unfold. I speak 4 languages and read the press from 4 or 5 different countries, so yeah, that's that. Wow you remainers are so far more superior than those morons that voted leave. If only they were all like you. Most popular UK search terms on Google, the day AFTER the referendum - 'What is the EU?' & 'What is Brexit?'
|
|
caruso
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,181
๐๐ป 818
August 2017
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 8:53:32 GMT 1
via mobile
Brexit, by caruso on Dec 6, 2018 8:53:32 GMT 1, You tend to forget one thing, I am a foreigner living in this country for many years, I have eyes and a brain and I make up my opinion as I witness events unfold. I speak 4 languages and read the press from 4 or 5 different countries, so yeah, that's that. Wow you remainers are so far more superior than those morons that voted leave. If only they were all like you.
Dude, you guys are fucked, I'm not: I have a EU passport.
You tend to forget one thing, I am a foreigner living in this country for many years, I have eyes and a brain and I make up my opinion as I witness events unfold. I speak 4 languages and read the press from 4 or 5 different countries, so yeah, that's that. Wow you remainers are so far more superior than those morons that voted leave. If only they were all like you. Dude, you guys are fucked, I'm not: I have a EU passport.
|
|
Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 9:29:46 GMT 1
Brexit, by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 9:29:46 GMT 1, Wow you remainers are so far more superior than those morons that voted leave. If only they were all like you. Dude, you guys are fucked, I'm not: I have a EU passport.
just reminded me to get an irish passport
Wow you remainers are so far more superior than those morons that voted leave. If only they were all like you. Dude, you guys are fucked, I'm not: I have a EU passport. just reminded me to get an irish passport
|
|
25127096
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 570
๐๐ป 402
December 2013
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 10:08:57 GMT 1
via mobile
Brexit, by 25127096 on Dec 6, 2018 10:08:57 GMT 1, Iโll just leave this here It was only a matter of time before fking Peterson got brought into it. Sweet lord we are doomed.
It was just an example from a clinical psychology to show that Brexit cannot be summed up as just xenophobic. The man is a legend, he offers a great insight into the psychological and social warfare between the left, right and everything in between.
Iโll just leave this here It was only a matter of time before fking Peterson got brought into it. Sweet lord we are doomed. It was just an example from a clinical psychology to show that Brexit cannot be summed up as just xenophobic. The man is a legend, he offers a great insight into the psychological and social warfare between the left, right and everything in between.
|
|
Chris JL
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,766
๐๐ป 1,852
March 2017
|
Brexit, by Chris JL on Dec 6, 2018 10:44:07 GMT 1, It was only a matter of time before fking Peterson got brought into it. Sweet lord we are doomed. It was just an example from a clinical psychology to show that Brexit cannot be summed up as just xenophobic. The man is a legend, he offers a great insight into the psychological and social warfare between the left, right and everything in between.
And the best example of it is a short video with misleading platitudes as the only content... ainโt impressed by your โlegendโ at all tbh
It was only a matter of time before fking Peterson got brought into it. Sweet lord we are doomed. It was just an example from a clinical psychology to show that Brexit cannot be summed up as just xenophobic. The man is a legend, he offers a great insight into the psychological and social warfare between the left, right and everything in between. And the best example of it is a short video with misleading platitudes as the only content... ainโt impressed by your โlegendโ at all tbh
|
|
silvermyn
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,612
๐๐ป 781
April 2008
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 10:53:39 GMT 1
Brexit, by silvermyn on Dec 6, 2018 10:53:39 GMT 1, You tend to forget one thing, I am a foreigner living in this country for many years, I have eyes and a brain and I make up my opinion as I witness events unfold. I speak 4 languages and read the press from 4 or 5 different countries, so yeah, that's that. Wow you remainers are so far more superior than those morons that voted leave. If only they were all like you. IMHO Caruso is making a valid point but perhaps hasn't quite gone about it the right way.
The underlying issue, I think, is that Leavers were generally less well educated than Remainers. Independent research supports this view. This doesn't mean that Leavers are "morons" but it would suggest that they would generally have a less developed understanding of international and economic issues.
You tend to forget one thing, I am a foreigner living in this country for many years, I have eyes and a brain and I make up my opinion as I witness events unfold. I speak 4 languages and read the press from 4 or 5 different countries, so yeah, that's that. Wow you remainers are so far more superior than those morons that voted leave. If only they were all like you. IMHO Caruso is making a valid point but perhaps hasn't quite gone about it the right way.
The underlying issue, I think, is that Leavers were generally less well educated than Remainers. Independent research supports this view. This doesn't mean that Leavers are "morons" but it would suggest that they would generally have a less developed understanding of international and economic issues.
|
|
25127096
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 570
๐๐ป 402
December 2013
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 10:57:57 GMT 1
via mobile
Brexit, by 25127096 on Dec 6, 2018 10:57:57 GMT 1, It was just an example from a clinical psychology to show that Brexit cannot be summed up as just xenophobic. The man is a legend, he offers a great insight into the psychological and social warfare between the left, right and everything in between. And the best example of it is a short video with misleading platitudes as the only content... ainโt impressed by you โlegendโ at all tbh
I wasnโt trying to impress anyone and why would it have to be the best example, it was just an example a short example but still it backs up my point that itโs not just xenophobia that caused people to vote leave, nothing else . And I didnโt say the video is legendary, I said Jordon Peterson is a legend, I firmly think he is. How was i misleading? The video gives one reason why people on both sides of the spectrum voted Brexit.
It was just an example from a clinical psychology to show that Brexit cannot be summed up as just xenophobic. The man is a legend, he offers a great insight into the psychological and social warfare between the left, right and everything in between. And the best example of it is a short video with misleading platitudes as the only content... ainโt impressed by you โlegendโ at all tbh I wasnโt trying to impress anyone and why would it have to be the best example, it was just an example a short example but still it backs up my point that itโs not just xenophobia that caused people to vote leave, nothing else . And I didnโt say the video is legendary, I said Jordon Peterson is a legend, I firmly think he is. How was i misleading? The video gives one reason why people on both sides of the spectrum voted Brexit.
|
|
|
Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 11:54:58 GMT 1
Brexit, by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 11:54:58 GMT 1, We all know lies were spread during the run up to the Brexit referendum. But, strange as it may seem, most Brexiters still want to leave the EU. They don't care about the lies. They just want us to leave and be an independent country again. Even if it means the UK will be poorer, they still want to leave. I am a Remainer, by the way. I only say these things as I think many people don't realise the mindset of Brexiters. Several millions have changed their mind according to most reliable estimates (but I guess not in your local pub). The most recent polls seem to suggest that it's about 52% Remain. So even with the huge mess we are in, it's still about half and half. My fear is what will happen if we have a second referendum and Remain just scrape through (which seems a good possibility)? How will the Brexiters react when they feel they have been cheated out of their dream? Will we have riots in the street like in Paris at the moment?
We all know lies were spread during the run up to the Brexit referendum. But, strange as it may seem, most Brexiters still want to leave the EU. They don't care about the lies. They just want us to leave and be an independent country again. Even if it means the UK will be poorer, they still want to leave. I am a Remainer, by the way. I only say these things as I think many people don't realise the mindset of Brexiters. Several millions have changed their mind according to most reliable estimates (but I guess not in your local pub). The most recent polls seem to suggest that it's about 52% Remain. So even with the huge mess we are in, it's still about half and half. My fear is what will happen if we have a second referendum and Remain just scrape through (which seems a good possibility)? How will the Brexiters react when they feel they have been cheated out of their dream? Will we have riots in the street like in Paris at the moment?
|
|
cogitobcn
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 159
๐๐ป 97
August 2017
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 12:35:46 GMT 1
Brexit, by cogitobcn on Dec 6, 2018 12:35:46 GMT 1, It seems that I'm not the only one with reading comprehension issues, so I will re-explain my post in a more verbose way:
Also, every leaver I spoke to is very quick to mention it was not a racist vote. Err, right, then why is it the first thing you mention to me? Caruso said that the fact that a brexiter denies being racists at the beginning of most discussions is a proof that the brexiter is a racist.
To be fair, because all the remainer media has repeated a million times that the real motives from brexiters are racisms and low-level education. So, your point is not really significative. Caruso's logic clearly fails, because there are a lot of alternative explanations that would cause this self-defensive attitude, so I just explain an easier explanation: the hostile context of name-calling that just assumes racisms is the only motive of all brexiters.
In fact Caruso's "argument" it's just an subtle ad-hominem fallacy, where instead of pointing the weak points of brexiter's arguments and/or offering positive arguments about its position, he just label the brexiters as "morally inferior" and, implicitly, himself as "virtuous and intellectually superior".
Not everyone who voted for Brexit was a racist but you can pretty much guarantee every racist who voted, voted for Brexit. The education factor has been researched substantially by the University of Leicester and they established that those with low levels of education were more likely to vote leave and those with higher levels, remain. All that said, the 'remainer media' has been pretty much none existent. 1) I was not saying anything about these well-researched fact, but about the wrong use by caruso in its fallacy.
2) I know about the correlation, but not about what are you implying? that low educated people votes must have a lower weight in a democracy?
3) the 'remainer media' has been dominant, from The Guardian to BBC, to the point that even me (a European immigrant living in UK that believes that the Brexit decision is harmful ftothis country) ended tired about the caricature that depicts brexiters as poor-uneducated-racists, reality (and, even more, human groups) are a lot more complex than that.
You tend to forget one thing, I am a foreigner living in this country for many years, I have eyes and a brain and I make up my opinion as I witness events unfold. I speak 4 languages and read the press from 4 or 5 different countries but unlike you cannot tell you the headline of 'The Sun' today. So yeah, that's that. I don't get the relation between your answer and my critique of your fallacy. In fact, just proves my last assertion about your "intellectual and moral superiority" argument.
I'm also a foreigner living in this country, like you "I have eyes and a brain and I make up my opinions as I witness events unfold". I only speak 3 languages, but I have two degrees and a PhD, and I also read the press from several countries. But unlike you, even I wished that UK remained in EU, I'm open to understand that brexiter's motivations can be more complex and go beyond simple labels as 'racisms'.
It seems that I'm not the only one with reading comprehension issues, so I will re-explain my post in a more verbose way: Also, every leaver I spoke to is very quick to mention it was not a racist vote. Err, right, then why is it the first thing you mention to me?Caruso said that the fact that a brexiter denies being racists at the beginning of most discussions is a proof that the brexiter is a racist. To be fair, because all the remainer media has repeated a million times that the real motives from brexiters are racisms and low-level education. So, your point is not really significative. Caruso's logic clearly fails, because there are a lot of alternative explanations that would cause this self-defensive attitude, so I just explain an easier explanation: the hostile context of name-calling that just assumes racisms is the only motive of all brexiters. In fact Caruso's "argument" it's just an subtle ad-hominem fallacy, where instead of pointing the weak points of brexiter's arguments and/or offering positive arguments about its position, he just label the brexiters as "morally inferior" and, implicitly, himself as "virtuous and intellectually superior". Not everyone who voted for Brexit was a racist but you can pretty much guarantee every racist who voted, voted for Brexit. The education factor has been researched substantially by the University of Leicester and they established that those with low levels of education were more likely to vote leave and those with higher levels, remain. All that said, the 'remainer media' has been pretty much none existent. 1) I was not saying anything about these well-researched fact, but about the wrong use by caruso in its fallacy. 2) I know about the correlation, but not about what are you implying? that low educated people votes must have a lower weight in a democracy? 3) the 'remainer media' has been dominant, from The Guardian to BBC, to the point that even me (a European immigrant living in UK that believes that the Brexit decision is harmful ftothis country) ended tired about the caricature that depicts brexiters as poor-uneducated-racists, reality (and, even more, human groups) are a lot more complex than that. You tend to forget one thing, I am a foreigner living in this country for many years, I have eyes and a brain and I make up my opinion as I witness events unfold. I speak 4 languages and read the press from 4 or 5 different countries but unlike you cannot tell you the headline of 'The Sun' today. So yeah, that's that. I don't get the relation between your answer and my critique of your fallacy. In fact, just proves my last assertion about your "intellectual and moral superiority" argument. I'm also a foreigner living in this country, like you "I have eyes and a brain and I make up my opinions as I witness events unfold". I only speak 3 languages, but I have two degrees and a PhD, and I also read the press from several countries. But unlike you, even I wished that UK remained in EU, I'm open to understand that brexiter's motivations can be more complex and go beyond simple labels as 'racisms'.
|
|
cogitobcn
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 159
๐๐ป 97
August 2017
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 12:42:15 GMT 1
Brexit, by cogitobcn on Dec 6, 2018 12:42:15 GMT 1, The most recent polls seem to suggest that it's about 52% Remain. So even with the huge mess we are in, it's still about half and half. My fear is what will happen if we have a second referendum and Remain just scrape through (which seems a good possibility)? How will the Brexiters react when they feel they have been cheated out of their dream? Will we have riots in the street like in Paris at the moment? Well, in this case (52% Remain - 48% Leave) the leavers would have the same reasons to ask for a third referendum...
More seriously, my fear is that repeating a referendum because the result is "wrong" (and I honestly think that leaving is wrong from the point of view of British citizens' interests) would incredibly damage the democracy, and it just will deep the fascism trend that is thriving in Europe (including UK). So, in the long term, accepting the result of the referendum is the least bad option for this country.
The most recent polls seem to suggest that it's about 52% Remain. So even with the huge mess we are in, it's still about half and half. My fear is what will happen if we have a second referendum and Remain just scrape through (which seems a good possibility)? How will the Brexiters react when they feel they have been cheated out of their dream? Will we have riots in the street like in Paris at the moment? Well, in this case (52% Remain - 48% Leave) the leavers would have the same reasons to ask for a third referendum... More seriously, my fear is that repeating a referendum because the result is "wrong" (and I honestly think that leaving is wrong from the point of view of British citizens' interests) would incredibly damage the democracy, and it just will deep the fascism trend that is thriving in Europe (including UK). So, in the long term, accepting the result of the referendum is the least bad option for this country.
|
|
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 13:34:52 GMT 1
Brexit, by Daylight Robber on Dec 6, 2018 13:34:52 GMT 1, Not everyone who voted for Brexit was a racist but you can pretty much guarantee every racist who voted, voted for Brexit. The education factor has been researched substantially by the University of Leicester and they established that those with low levels of education were more likely to vote leave and those with higher levels, remain. All that said, the 'remainer media' has been pretty much none existent. 1) I was not saying anything about these well-researched fact, but about the wrong use by caruso in its fallacy. 2) I know about the correlation, but not about what are you implying? that low educated people votes must have a lower weight in a democracy? 3) the 'remainer media' has been dominant, from The Guardian to BBC, to the point that even me (a European immigrant living in UK that believes that the Brexit decision is harmful ftothis country) ended tired about the caricature that depicts brexiters as poor-uneducated-racists, reality (and, even more, human groups) are a lot more complex than that. The Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism would disagree massively with you in regards to the direction of Media Bias. This is backed up by the Universtiy of Loughborough who did studies into the tone of coverage of the EU Referendum in the papers. They established that, weighted by circulation, Leave had an 82% to 18% advantage over Remain.
The Mail, The Sun, The Telegraph, The Express, The Metro, The Star, The Times - All Pro Brexit.
The BBC News - Jury is out, but when it comes to Question Time, The Today Program, Daily Politics and This Week, all flagship political programs, they're all firmly Leave biased.
In regards to your bizarre illogical conclusion that I'm implying the lesser educated should carry lesser weight in the democratic process, I was simply pointing out that as a country, we weren't equipped to make any kind of decision of this nature. It was beyond most of us. Yet here we are, our destiny chosen by people who believe that experts aren't worth listening to, and that bendy bananas will not only be making a comeback, but will be enhancing our lives because they are!
Not everyone who voted for Brexit was a racist but you can pretty much guarantee every racist who voted, voted for Brexit. The education factor has been researched substantially by the University of Leicester and they established that those with low levels of education were more likely to vote leave and those with higher levels, remain. All that said, the 'remainer media' has been pretty much none existent. 1) I was not saying anything about these well-researched fact, but about the wrong use by caruso in its fallacy. 2) I know about the correlation, but not about what are you implying? that low educated people votes must have a lower weight in a democracy? 3) the 'remainer media' has been dominant, from The Guardian to BBC, to the point that even me (a European immigrant living in UK that believes that the Brexit decision is harmful ftothis country) ended tired about the caricature that depicts brexiters as poor-uneducated-racists, reality (and, even more, human groups) are a lot more complex than that. The Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism would disagree massively with you in regards to the direction of Media Bias. This is backed up by the Universtiy of Loughborough who did studies into the tone of coverage of the EU Referendum in the papers. They established that, weighted by circulation, Leave had an 82% to 18% advantage over Remain. The Mail, The Sun, The Telegraph, The Express, The Metro, The Star, The Times - All Pro Brexit. The BBC News - Jury is out, but when it comes to Question Time, The Today Program, Daily Politics and This Week, all flagship political programs, they're all firmly Leave biased. In regards to your bizarre illogical conclusion that I'm implying the lesser educated should carry lesser weight in the democratic process, I was simply pointing out that as a country, we weren't equipped to make any kind of decision of this nature. It was beyond most of us. Yet here we are, our destiny chosen by people who believe that experts aren't worth listening to, and that bendy bananas will not only be making a comeback, but will be enhancing our lives because they are!
|
|
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 13:46:18 GMT 1
via mobile
Brexit, by Coach on Dec 6, 2018 13:46:18 GMT 1, 1) I was not saying anything about these well-researchedย fact, but about the wrong use by carusoย in its fallacy. 2) I know about the correlation, but not about what are you implying? that low educated people votes must have a lower weight in a democracy? 3) the 'remainer media' has been dominant, from The Guardian to BBC, to the point that even me (a European immigrant living in UKย that believes that the Brexit decision is harmful ftothis country) ended tired about the caricature that depicts brexiters as poor-uneducated-racists, reality (and, even more, human groups) are a lot more complex than that. The Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism would disagree massively with you in regards to the direction of Media Bias. This is backed up by the Universtiy of Loughborough who did studies into the tone of coverage of the EU Referendum in the papers. They established that, weighted by circulation, Leave had an 82% to 18% advantage over Remain. The Mail, The Sun, The Telegraph, The Express, The Metro, The Star, The Times - All Pro Brexit.ย The BBC News - Jury is out, but when it comes to Question Time, The Today Program, Daily Politics and This Week, all flagship political programs, they're all firmly Leave biased. In regards to your bizarre illogical conclusion that I'm implying the lesser educated should carry lesser weight in the democratic process, I was simply pointing out that as a country, we weren't equipped to make any kind of decision of this nature. It was beyond most of us. Yet here we are, our destiny chosen by people who believe that experts aren't worth listening to, and that bendy bananas will not only be making a comeback, but will be enhancing our lives because they are!
I take no issue with what you say about the press (though have no knowledge of the studies or statistics you mention). But Iโm surprised at what you say regarding the bbc. The Today programme for example. I listen to at least an hour of it every working day. I have never had the impression that it is Leave biaised. And as a remoaner, I think I would have noticed.
1) I was not saying anything about these well-researchedย fact, but about the wrong use by carusoย in its fallacy. 2) I know about the correlation, but not about what are you implying? that low educated people votes must have a lower weight in a democracy? 3) the 'remainer media' has been dominant, from The Guardian to BBC, to the point that even me (a European immigrant living in UKย that believes that the Brexit decision is harmful ftothis country) ended tired about the caricature that depicts brexiters as poor-uneducated-racists, reality (and, even more, human groups) are a lot more complex than that. The Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism would disagree massively with you in regards to the direction of Media Bias. This is backed up by the Universtiy of Loughborough who did studies into the tone of coverage of the EU Referendum in the papers. They established that, weighted by circulation, Leave had an 82% to 18% advantage over Remain. The Mail, The Sun, The Telegraph, The Express, The Metro, The Star, The Times - All Pro Brexit.ย The BBC News - Jury is out, but when it comes to Question Time, The Today Program, Daily Politics and This Week, all flagship political programs, they're all firmly Leave biased. In regards to your bizarre illogical conclusion that I'm implying the lesser educated should carry lesser weight in the democratic process, I was simply pointing out that as a country, we weren't equipped to make any kind of decision of this nature. It was beyond most of us. Yet here we are, our destiny chosen by people who believe that experts aren't worth listening to, and that bendy bananas will not only be making a comeback, but will be enhancing our lives because they are! I take no issue with what you say about the press (though have no knowledge of the studies or statistics you mention). But Iโm surprised at what you say regarding the bbc. The Today programme for example. I listen to at least an hour of it every working day. I have never had the impression that it is Leave biaised. And as a remoaner, I think I would have noticed.
|
|
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 14:02:47 GMT 1
via mobile
Brexit, by Daylight Robber on Dec 6, 2018 14:02:47 GMT 1, The Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism would disagree massively with you in regards to the direction of Media Bias. This is backed up by the Universtiy of Loughborough who did studies into the tone of coverage of the EU Referendum in the papers. They established that, weighted by circulation, Leave had an 82% to 18% advantage over Remain. The Mail, The Sun, The Telegraph, The Express, The Metro, The Star, The Times - All Pro Brexit.ย The BBC News - Jury is out, but when it comes to Question Time, The Today Program, Daily Politics and This Week, all flagship political programs, they're all firmly Leave biased. In regards to your bizarre illogical conclusion that I'm implying the lesser educated should carry lesser weight in the democratic process, I was simply pointing out that as a country, we weren't equipped to make any kind of decision of this nature. It was beyond most of us. Yet here we are, our destiny chosen by people who believe that experts aren't worth listening to, and that bendy bananas will not only be making a comeback, but will be enhancing our lives because they are! I take no issue with what you say about the press (though have no knowledge of the studies or statistics you mention). But Iโm surprised at what you say regarding the bbc. The Today programme for example. I listen to at least an hour of it every working day. I have never had the impression that it is Leave biaised. And as a remoaner, I think I would have noticed.
I don't have access to the figures right now, but there are stats on how many Leavers and Remainers were on each of these programmes, as guests, panelists,etc. in the run up to the vote. Each were leave heavy.
The Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism would disagree massively with you in regards to the direction of Media Bias. This is backed up by the Universtiy of Loughborough who did studies into the tone of coverage of the EU Referendum in the papers. They established that, weighted by circulation, Leave had an 82% to 18% advantage over Remain. The Mail, The Sun, The Telegraph, The Express, The Metro, The Star, The Times - All Pro Brexit.ย The BBC News - Jury is out, but when it comes to Question Time, The Today Program, Daily Politics and This Week, all flagship political programs, they're all firmly Leave biased. In regards to your bizarre illogical conclusion that I'm implying the lesser educated should carry lesser weight in the democratic process, I was simply pointing out that as a country, we weren't equipped to make any kind of decision of this nature. It was beyond most of us. Yet here we are, our destiny chosen by people who believe that experts aren't worth listening to, and that bendy bananas will not only be making a comeback, but will be enhancing our lives because they are! I take no issue with what you say about the press (though have no knowledge of the studies or statistics you mention). But Iโm surprised at what you say regarding the bbc. The Today programme for example. I listen to at least an hour of it every working day. I have never had the impression that it is Leave biaised. And as a remoaner, I think I would have noticed. I don't have access to the figures right now, but there are stats on how many Leavers and Remainers were on each of these programmes, as guests, panelists,etc. in the run up to the vote. Each were leave heavy.
|
|
Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 14:16:40 GMT 1
Brexit, by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 14:16:40 GMT 1, The Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism would disagree massively with you in regards to the direction of Media Bias. This is backed up by the Universtiy of Loughborough who did studies into the tone of coverage of the EU Referendum in the papers. They established that, weighted by circulation, Leave had an 82% to 18% advantage over Remain. The Mail, The Sun, The Telegraph, The Express, The Metro, The Star, The Times - All Pro Brexit. The BBC News - Jury is out, but when it comes to Question Time, The Today Program, Daily Politics and This Week, all flagship political programs, they're all firmly Leave biased. In regards to your bizarre illogical conclusion that I'm implying the lesser educated should carry lesser weight in the democratic process, I was simply pointing out that as a country, we weren't equipped to make any kind of decision of this nature. It was beyond most of us. Yet here we are, our destiny chosen by people who believe that experts aren't worth listening to, and that bendy bananas will not only be making a comeback, but will be enhancing our lives because they are! I take no issue with what you say about the press (though have no knowledge of the studies or statistics you mention). But Iโm surprised at what you say regarding the bbc. The Today programme for example. I listen to at least an hour of it every working day. I have never had the impression that it is Leave biaised. And as a remoaner, I think I would have noticed. I'm not sure about the BBC but the British press and the most popular newspapers were overwhelmingly pro-Brexit. Perhaps it's down to the fact that change is always perceived as 'sexy' whereas more-of-the-same is always rather dull. 'Sexy' sells newspapers; 'dull' does not.
The Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism would disagree massively with you in regards to the direction of Media Bias. This is backed up by the Universtiy of Loughborough who did studies into the tone of coverage of the EU Referendum in the papers. They established that, weighted by circulation, Leave had an 82% to 18% advantage over Remain. The Mail, The Sun, The Telegraph, The Express, The Metro, The Star, The Times - All Pro Brexit. The BBC News - Jury is out, but when it comes to Question Time, The Today Program, Daily Politics and This Week, all flagship political programs, they're all firmly Leave biased. In regards to your bizarre illogical conclusion that I'm implying the lesser educated should carry lesser weight in the democratic process, I was simply pointing out that as a country, we weren't equipped to make any kind of decision of this nature. It was beyond most of us. Yet here we are, our destiny chosen by people who believe that experts aren't worth listening to, and that bendy bananas will not only be making a comeback, but will be enhancing our lives because they are! I take no issue with what you say about the press (though have no knowledge of the studies or statistics you mention). But Iโm surprised at what you say regarding the bbc. The Today programme for example. I listen to at least an hour of it every working day. I have never had the impression that it is Leave biaised. And as a remoaner, I think I would have noticed. I'm not sure about the BBC but the British press and the most popular newspapers were overwhelmingly pro-Brexit. Perhaps it's down to the fact that change is always perceived as 'sexy' whereas more-of-the-same is always rather dull. 'Sexy' sells newspapers; 'dull' does not.
|
|
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 14:21:09 GMT 1
via mobile
Brexit, by Coach on Dec 6, 2018 14:21:09 GMT 1, I take no issue with what you say about the press (though have no knowledge of the studies or statistics you mention). But Iโm surprised at what you say regarding the bbc. The Today programme for example. I listen to at least an hour of it every working day. I have never had the impression that it is Leave biaised. And as a remoaner, I think I would have noticed. I don't have access to the figures right now, but there are stats on how many Leavers and Remainers were on each of these programmes, as guests, panelists,etc. in the run up to the vote. Each were leave heavy.
Ok. No need to find the figures. I have no reason to doubt you. But on a programme like Today I would think that the reaction of the presenters is more important. The political guests are given a grilling. This may be the cause of my overall impression - I heard lots of Brexiteers being subjected to tough questioning. Rest assured, they were not able to just pontificate on the advantages of leaving without being challenged.
I take no issue with what you say about the press (though have no knowledge of the studies or statistics you mention). But Iโm surprised at what you say regarding the bbc. The Today programme for example. I listen to at least an hour of it every working day. I have never had the impression that it is Leave biaised. And as a remoaner, I think I would have noticed. I don't have access to the figures right now, but there are stats on how many Leavers and Remainers were on each of these programmes, as guests, panelists,etc. in the run up to the vote. Each were leave heavy. Ok. No need to find the figures. I have no reason to doubt you. But on a programme like Today I would think that the reaction of the presenters is more important. The political guests are given a grilling. This may be the cause of my overall impression - I heard lots of Brexiteers being subjected to tough questioning. Rest assured, they were not able to just pontificate on the advantages of leaving without being challenged.
|
|
|
cogitobcn
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 159
๐๐ป 97
August 2017
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 14:32:25 GMT 1
Brexit, by cogitobcn on Dec 6, 2018 14:32:25 GMT 1, The Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism would disagree massively with you in regards to the direction of Media Bias. This is backed up by the Universtiy of Loughborough who did studies into the tone of coverage of the EU Referendum in the papers. They established that, weighted by circulation, Leave had an 82% to 18% advantage over Remain.
It's all about perception, beyond quantitative analysis about the news, for me it's clear that the qualitative tone from most published opinions subtly depicted leavers motivations as just "uneducated racists".
In regards to your bizarre illogical conclusion that I'm implying the lesser educated should carry lesser weight in the democratic process, I was simply pointing out that as a country, we weren't equipped to make any kind of decision of this nature. It was beyond most of us. Yet here we are, our destiny chosen by people who believe that experts aren't worth listening to, and that bendy bananas will not only be making a comeback, but will be enhancing our lives because they are!
I apologize, I was not sure about what were you implying, for this reason, I asked you directly. In this case, I agree with your implication, but it's not the voters' fault but from the politician that called the referendum.
I think that it's sad that your last sentences seem tainted with the same self-superiority and coarse generalization about leavers than some leavers have about immigrants.
In any case, it's a pity that you picked a collateral argument and precisely ignored the core of my critique to caruso's fallacy. Probably this subject is too sensitive to discuss it objectively and avoid taking sides.
The Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism would disagree massively with you in regards to the direction of Media Bias. This is backed up by the Universtiy of Loughborough who did studies into the tone of coverage of the EU Referendum in the papers. They established that, weighted by circulation, Leave had an 82% to 18% advantage over Remain. It's all about perception, beyond quantitative analysis about the news, for me it's clear that the qualitative tone from most published opinions subtly depicted leavers motivations as just "uneducated racists". In regards to your bizarre illogical conclusion that I'm implying the lesser educated should carry lesser weight in the democratic process, I was simply pointing out that as a country, we weren't equipped to make any kind of decision of this nature. It was beyond most of us. Yet here we are, our destiny chosen by people who believe that experts aren't worth listening to, and that bendy bananas will not only be making a comeback, but will be enhancing our lives because they are! I apologize, I was not sure about what were you implying, for this reason, I asked you directly. In this case, I agree with your implication, but it's not the voters' fault but from the politician that called the referendum. I think that it's sad that your last sentences seem tainted with the same self-superiority and coarse generalization about leavers than some leavers have about immigrants. In any case, it's a pity that you picked a collateral argument and precisely ignored the core of my critique to caruso's fallacy. Probably this subject is too sensitive to discuss it objectively and avoid taking sides.
|
|
Chris JL
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,766
๐๐ป 1,852
March 2017
|
Brexit, by Chris JL on Dec 6, 2018 16:02:14 GMT 1, I take no issue with what you say about the press (though have no knowledge of the studies or statistics you mention). But Iโm surprised at what you say regarding the bbc. The Today programme for example. I listen to at least an hour of it every working day. I have never had the impression that it is Leave biaised. And as a remoaner, I think I would have noticed. I don't have access to the figures right now, but there are stats on how many Leavers and Remainers were on each of these programmes, as guests, panelists,etc. in the run up to the vote. Each were leave heavy.
Indeed, thatโs a fact (partially because the โleaversโ were more โcolourfulโ hence good for the ratings).
But even more important than the biased representation of views is the problem of misunderstanding what it means to give balanced coverage. The BBC especially failed over and over to call BS when their panelists were (basically all the time) stating that the planet is flat and the sun rotates around the earth. Giving a free pass over and over and over to blatant falsehood is NOT balanced journalism. A balanced journalism is the one that calls BS whenever it faces it, independently from the political colour of the BS. Balanced journalism for instance is the one that states clearly that the (very hard to find) โexpertsโ supporting brexit have some of the worst credentials we have ever seen (maybe bar the Trump administration) in the public policy discourse, and some of the most blatant conflicts of interest. Balanced journalism, to nod at the good old times, is the one of a republican journalist bringing down a republican president he had once endorsed because, well, we used to believe that blatant liars have no legitimacy for ruling the land - as a vote based on now clearly debunked lies has no legitimacy. And that should be stated sound and clear.
I take no issue with what you say about the press (though have no knowledge of the studies or statistics you mention). But Iโm surprised at what you say regarding the bbc. The Today programme for example. I listen to at least an hour of it every working day. I have never had the impression that it is Leave biaised. And as a remoaner, I think I would have noticed. I don't have access to the figures right now, but there are stats on how many Leavers and Remainers were on each of these programmes, as guests, panelists,etc. in the run up to the vote. Each were leave heavy. Indeed, thatโs a fact (partially because the โleaversโ were more โcolourfulโ hence good for the ratings). But even more important than the biased representation of views is the problem of misunderstanding what it means to give balanced coverage. The BBC especially failed over and over to call BS when their panelists were (basically all the time) stating that the planet is flat and the sun rotates around the earth. Giving a free pass over and over and over to blatant falsehood is NOT balanced journalism. A balanced journalism is the one that calls BS whenever it faces it, independently from the political colour of the BS. Balanced journalism for instance is the one that states clearly that the (very hard to find) โexpertsโ supporting brexit have some of the worst credentials we have ever seen (maybe bar the Trump administration) in the public policy discourse, and some of the most blatant conflicts of interest. Balanced journalism, to nod at the good old times, is the one of a republican journalist bringing down a republican president he had once endorsed because, well, we used to believe that blatant liars have no legitimacy for ruling the land - as a vote based on now clearly debunked lies has no legitimacy. And that should be stated sound and clear.
|
|
Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 16:53:47 GMT 1
Brexit, by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 16:53:47 GMT 1, I think the problem over the Brexit debates was that they were predictions. People either said "Brexit will be wonderful" or "Brexit will be bloody awful". Both were just guesses - and still are, to be honest. Of course, some guesses are more educated than others ...but they are still not much more than guesses. Nobody can say for certain what life will be like outside the EU.
I think the problem over the Brexit debates was that they were predictions. People either said "Brexit will be wonderful" or "Brexit will be bloody awful". Both were just guesses - and still are, to be honest. Of course, some guesses are more educated than others ...but they are still not much more than guesses. Nobody can say for certain what life will be like outside the EU.
|
|
.dappy
Full Member
๐จ๏ธ 9,841
๐๐ป 9,462
December 2010
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 17:15:09 GMT 1
via mobile
Brexit, by .dappy on Dec 6, 2018 17:15:09 GMT 1,
|
|
Masong
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,223
๐๐ป 2,887
March 2017
|
Brexit
Dec 6, 2018 22:40:44 GMT 1
Brexit, by Masong on Dec 6, 2018 22:40:44 GMT 1,
|
|
Chris JL
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,766
๐๐ป 1,852
March 2017
|
Brexit, by Chris JL on Dec 7, 2018 0:41:50 GMT 1, I think the problem over the Brexit debates was that they were predictions. People either said "Brexit will be wonderful" or "Brexit will be bloody awful". Both were just guesses - and still are, to be honest. Of course, some guesses are more educated than others ...but they are still not much more than guesses. Nobody can say for certain what life will be like outside the EU.
Nope. The no BS ones were model and econometrics driven predictions, with attached confidence bands and posterior probabilities - ie there were good numbers and there was pure BS. The BS won the referendum thanks to the free passes in media coverage (and xenophobia and austerity - the latter sponsored at the EU level by the UK btw). The good numbers (eg IFSโs ones) were, and have ex post been confirmed so far, 100% accurate (on growth, on exchange rates, on labour market supply, on public finances etc etc).
Saying that it is, and was, all the same is not only blatantly wrong, it is also damaging since it helps the BSers get away with it. There are people that spend countless hours to come up with decent forecasts following 800 years of sound methodology of science, hard core modelling, serious theoretical thinking, and massive data crunching. And there are people that simply said, and still say, just BS (often knowingly so and mostly out of self interest). They are NOT the same - some are liars, some are not, sorry.
I think the problem over the Brexit debates was that they were predictions. People either said "Brexit will be wonderful" or "Brexit will be bloody awful". Both were just guesses - and still are, to be honest. Of course, some guesses are more educated than others ...but they are still not much more than guesses. Nobody can say for certain what life will be like outside the EU. Nope. The no BS ones were model and econometrics driven predictions, with attached confidence bands and posterior probabilities - ie there were good numbers and there was pure BS. The BS won the referendum thanks to the free passes in media coverage (and xenophobia and austerity - the latter sponsored at the EU level by the UK btw). The good numbers (eg IFSโs ones) were, and have ex post been confirmed so far, 100% accurate (on growth, on exchange rates, on labour market supply, on public finances etc etc). Saying that it is, and was, all the same is not only blatantly wrong, it is also damaging since it helps the BSers get away with it. There are people that spend countless hours to come up with decent forecasts following 800 years of sound methodology of science, hard core modelling, serious theoretical thinking, and massive data crunching. And there are people that simply said, and still say, just BS (often knowingly so and mostly out of self interest). They are NOT the same - some are liars, some are not, sorry.
|
|
Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
|
Brexit
Dec 7, 2018 11:56:12 GMT 1
Brexit, by Deleted on Dec 7, 2018 11:56:12 GMT 1, But we still don't know how well off / poor we will be after leaving the EU. I'm not dissing financial predictions. I am sure some are very well thought out but you are still left with the unknowns of, for example, what free trade deals with other countries will end up being like and how much they will influence GDP. There is no way you can predict what a free trade deal with, say, Australia will look like when there is no such thing in existence and not even basic preliminary principals have been agreed. I'm all for trusting experts but even experts can't predict total unknowns.
But we still don't know how well off / poor we will be after leaving the EU. I'm not dissing financial predictions. I am sure some are very well thought out but you are still left with the unknowns of, for example, what free trade deals with other countries will end up being like and how much they will influence GDP. There is no way you can predict what a free trade deal with, say, Australia will look like when there is no such thing in existence and not even basic preliminary principals have been agreed. I'm all for trusting experts but even experts can't predict total unknowns.
|
|
Chris JL
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,766
๐๐ป 1,852
March 2017
|
Brexit, by Chris JL on Dec 7, 2018 19:48:14 GMT 1, But we still don't know how well off / poor we will be after leaving the EU. I'm not dissing financial predictions. I am sure some are very well thought out but you are still left with the unknowns of, for example, what free trade deals with other countries will end up being like and how much they will influence GDP. There is no way you can predict what a free trade deal with, say, Australia will look like when there is no such thing in existence and not even basic preliminary principals have been agreed. I'm all for trusting experts but even experts can't predict total unknowns.
A lot poorer. Here is some good work (and thatโs far from the most negative results e.g. BoE ones): ukandeu.ac.uk/new-research-shows-economic-and-fiscal-consequences-of-the-brexit-deal/
And in terms of trade deals, what really matters itโs the deals with the EU since thatโs the biggest and (naturally) most relevant trading partner. From deals with other countries there is little to gain because 1) the UK is very unlikely to get much better deals than the EU itself (the bargaining power is a fraction of the EU one), 2) trade follows the gravity law (ie distance is the main force) hence doesnโt matter how good conditions the crazies dream one can get with eg Australia, itโs still will count for peanuts relative to the disaster of frictions in the trade with the EU.
But we still don't know how well off / poor we will be after leaving the EU. I'm not dissing financial predictions. I am sure some are very well thought out but you are still left with the unknowns of, for example, what free trade deals with other countries will end up being like and how much they will influence GDP. There is no way you can predict what a free trade deal with, say, Australia will look like when there is no such thing in existence and not even basic preliminary principals have been agreed. I'm all for trusting experts but even experts can't predict total unknowns. A lot poorer. Here is some good work (and thatโs far from the most negative results e.g. BoE ones): ukandeu.ac.uk/new-research-shows-economic-and-fiscal-consequences-of-the-brexit-deal/And in terms of trade deals, what really matters itโs the deals with the EU since thatโs the biggest and (naturally) most relevant trading partner. From deals with other countries there is little to gain because 1) the UK is very unlikely to get much better deals than the EU itself (the bargaining power is a fraction of the EU one), 2) trade follows the gravity law (ie distance is the main force) hence doesnโt matter how good conditions the crazies dream one can get with eg Australia, itโs still will count for peanuts relative to the disaster of frictions in the trade with the EU.
|
|