Stonetown
New Member
Posts โข 224
Likes โข 154
July 2019
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by Stonetown on Feb 19, 2020 23:44:09 GMT 1, Effectively I am suggesting that anything after the first 500 will be like the box sets. Cheaper and in great numbers. Nobody is hassling the Walled Off hotel about them because well... they dont need to.ย That would be like a big f*ck you to anyone that buys in the second round though, I'm sure Banksy ain't that much of an arse. I will keep my fingers crossed for you๐ค
Not if the second and subsequent rounds were priced cheaper. More in line with what's being done with the box set from the hotel. Which is conveniently ending. Again... I dont know s^*t. Just having fun trying to guess.
Effectively I am suggesting that anything after the first 500 will be like the box sets. Cheaper and in great numbers. Nobody is hassling the Walled Off hotel about them because well... they dont need to.ย That would be like a big f*ck you to anyone that buys in the second round though, I'm sure Banksy ain't that much of an arse. I will keep my fingers crossed for you๐ค Not if the second and subsequent rounds were priced cheaper. More in line with what's being done with the box set from the hotel. Which is conveniently ending. Again... I dont know s^*t. Just having fun trying to guess.
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Majestic
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,030
Likes โข 1,432
January 2016
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by Majestic on Feb 19, 2020 23:59:58 GMT 1, The beauty for me is the fact they're all slightly different from one another.
Each of these ladies has left their own mark, their own signature and story on each. A piece of of them.
Treasure it.
The beauty for me is the fact they're all slightly different from one another.
Each of these ladies has left their own mark, their own signature and story on each. A piece of of them.
Treasure it.
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pellets
New Member
Posts โข 758
Likes โข 751
October 2018
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by pellets on Feb 20, 2020 0:38:22 GMT 1, Do you think the form of the mats will change as the creators hone their mat sowing skills? Will #998 have a much tighter appearance than number 2?
Do you think the form of the mats will change as the creators hone their mat sowing skills? Will #998 have a much tighter appearance than number 2?
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Stonetown
New Member
Posts โข 224
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July 2019
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by Stonetown on Feb 20, 2020 0:59:48 GMT 1, Do you think the form of the mats will change as the creators hone their mat sowing skills? Will #998 have a much tighter appearance than number 2?
Yes. Very much.
Do you think the form of the mats will change as the creators hone their mat sowing skills? Will #998 have a much tighter appearance than number 2? Yes. Very much.
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by Duke Down Stairs on Feb 20, 2020 1:35:34 GMT 1, I'd like to buy the demo model. That one is tight!
Maybe can get a discount as it's a floor sample.
(Banksy GDP peeps reading: if that's possible, hit me up via PM! Cash waiting.) (> _ <) Thanks!
I'd like to buy the demo model. That one is tight!
Maybe can get a discount as it's a floor sample.
(Banksy GDP peeps reading: if that's possible, hit me up via PM! Cash waiting.) (> _ <) Thanks!
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cest
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,725
Likes โข 1,160
September 2018
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by cest on Feb 20, 2020 1:52:45 GMT 1, Not that I have one but I'm trying :-)
I've seen a couple of images of people trying to fit these in frames. I wonder if there's an issue with light degradation and if not why even frame it? Maybe instead mount it on wood, somehow "stretch" the clips , and hang it without an exposed frame/ not have it under glass
Not that I have one but I'm trying :-)
I've seen a couple of images of people trying to fit these in frames. I wonder if there's an issue with light degradation and if not why even frame it? Maybe instead mount it on wood, somehow "stretch" the clips , and hang it without an exposed frame/ not have it under glass
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Gentle Mental
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,826
Likes โข 863
May 2007
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by Gentle Mental on Feb 20, 2020 4:43:37 GMT 1, Banksy's beautiful social/sales/marketing experiment by gentlemental
If the Mats were stated as โEdition of 1000โ at launch, they would either: 1. be part of the lottery (at ยฃ500 each) 2. OR priced to market (for maximum donations)
The lottery isn't good - as it won't drive traffic to Love Welcomes - raising awareness for the cause.
Labelling it LIMITED will only drive tens of thousands of flippers there - turning the conversation away from Refugees' plight to flipping market valuations etc.
"Unlimited and NO COA" - instantly turned thousands of flippers off - as Unlimited/No COA items have no resale value. You would have to take a ยฃ500 gamble!
Which explains why it took an hour to sell out 500 pieces of Banksy.
Buyers during that hour - are likely a hard core Banksy fan, or someone who wants to help โ or a bit of both. There are some flippers who gambled, they are up on Ebay now - but far, far lesser than usual.
Everyday folks would've stood no chance - had it been sold as "limited" above the ADD TO CART.
If the Mats were genuinely unlimited: there really is no need to number them.
Numbering an unlimited ed to prevent knockoffs wouldn't make sense. There will be very little demand for knock offs โ if it were unlimited. These Mats, unlike KAWS toys, are no design dรฉcor eye candy pieces. They are crude and rudimentary doormats โ the value is in the concept. There is no value in the actual (material/aesthetic aspect of the) thing.
Which leads to what's going to happen with the next 500.
As it is aligned with the Sales Strategy of GDP โ the first batch goes to the โmassesโ โ the second to โthe collectorsโ.
The next 500 should be priced to market. This will raise enough money to last a long while โ very possibly much more than you would if it were unlimited.
At 3k each โ it wouldโve raise ยฃ1.5 million. KAWS showed it can be done for an ed of 750. I'm sure the "waiting list" is a mile long.
If they were unlimited, they would need to make 3,000 x ยฃ500 to make that same amount money. Keeping the workers busy for the sake of keeping them busy is just cruel. When each hour could bring in so much more money.
This is why - there isn't a mention of "Don't worry, you'll get yours at ยฃ500, it's unlimited" messaging out at all.
Finally - the demand is not unlimited. There are only so many hard core Banksy+Charity fans who are willing to pay ยฃ500 for a permanently unlimited, no COA piece.
At last count โ that small number was around 500 ish.
Thank you. Rant over. time for toasts, half boiled eggs and extra sweet coffee.
Banksy's beautiful social/sales/marketing experiment by gentlemental If the Mats were stated as โEdition of 1000โ at launch, they would either: 1. be part of the lottery (at ยฃ500 each) 2. OR priced to market (for maximum donations) The lottery isn't good - as it won't drive traffic to Love Welcomes - raising awareness for the cause. Labelling it LIMITED will only drive tens of thousands of flippers there - turning the conversation away from Refugees' plight to flipping market valuations etc. "Unlimited and NO COA" - instantly turned thousands of flippers off - as Unlimited/No COA items have no resale value. You would have to take a ยฃ500 gamble! Which explains why it took an hour to sell out 500 pieces of Banksy. Buyers during that hour - are likely a hard core Banksy fan, or someone who wants to help โ or a bit of both. There are some flippers who gambled, they are up on Ebay now - but far, far lesser than usual. Everyday folks would've stood no chance - had it been sold as "limited" above the ADD TO CART. If the Mats were genuinely unlimited: there really is no need to number them. Numbering an unlimited ed to prevent knockoffs wouldn't make sense. There will be very little demand for knock offs โ if it were unlimited. These Mats, unlike KAWS toys, are no design dรฉcor eye candy pieces. They are crude and rudimentary doormats โ the value is in the concept. There is no value in the actual (material/aesthetic aspect of the) thing. Which leads to what's going to happen with the next 500. As it is aligned with the Sales Strategy of GDP โ the first batch goes to the โmassesโ โ the second to โthe collectorsโ. The next 500 should be priced to market. This will raise enough money to last a long while โ very possibly much more than you would if it were unlimited. At 3k each โ it wouldโve raise ยฃ1.5 million. KAWS showed it can be done for an ed of 750. I'm sure the "waiting list" is a mile long. If they were unlimited, they would need to make 3,000 x ยฃ500 to make that same amount money. Keeping the workers busy for the sake of keeping them busy is just cruel. When each hour could bring in so much more money. This is why - there isn't a mention of "Don't worry, you'll get yours at ยฃ500, it's unlimited" messaging out at all. Finally - the demand is not unlimited. There are only so many hard core Banksy+Charity fans who are willing to pay ยฃ500 for a permanently unlimited, no COA piece. At last count โ that small number was around 500 ish. Thank you. Rant over. time for toasts, half boiled eggs and extra sweet coffee.
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19818914
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,337
Likes โข 1,029
October 2018
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by 19818914 on Feb 20, 2020 5:05:41 GMT 1, United Conspiracy Association.
United Conspiracy Association.
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Inknart
Junior Member
Posts โข 3,490
Likes โข 3,288
April 2015
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by Inknart on Feb 20, 2020 5:19:11 GMT 1, Is it actually a "Banksy" when it was created by refugees and just had a GDP label on it? It makes sense why it wouldn't come with a COA? It would be similar to the wall pieces in the hotel. Is an unsigned print, designed by banksy and screened by Joe Schmoe still a banksy ?
Is it actually a "Banksy" when it was created by refugees and just had a GDP label on it? It makes sense why it wouldn't come with a COA? It would be similar to the wall pieces in the hotel. Is an unsigned print, designed by banksy and screened by Joe Schmoe still a banksy ?
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Inknart
Junior Member
Posts โข 3,490
Likes โข 3,288
April 2015
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by Inknart on Feb 20, 2020 5:33:23 GMT 1, Is an unsigned print, designed by banksy and screened by Joe Schmoe still a banksy ? Was it sold directly from POW or GDP? If not, it might be a west country prince. its labeled as an official GDP item, marketed on GDP, so yes.
pretty sure itโs registered by number with GDP as well.
has a label that says banksy x Love welcomes
was featured piece in GDP store
anyone saying that โoh is it really a banksy if it was designed and made by a refugeeโ the answer is YES, banksy designs the pieces, but youโre out of your mind if you think banksy is sitting in Santaโs work shop cranking out all these edition items and not his little elves placing those itty bitty tiles on riot helmets and screening prints
Is an unsigned print, designed by banksy and screened by Joe Schmoe still a banksy ? Was it sold directly from POW or GDP? If not, it might be a west country prince. its labeled as an official GDP item, marketed on GDP, so yes. pretty sure itโs registered by number with GDP as well. has a label that says banksy x Love welcomes was featured piece in GDP store anyone saying that โoh is it really a banksy if it was designed and made by a refugeeโ the answer is YES, banksy designs the pieces, but youโre out of your mind if you think banksy is sitting in Santaโs work shop cranking out all these edition items and not his little elves placing those itty bitty tiles on riot helmets and screening prints
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teabaggins
New Member
Posts โข 930
Likes โข 1,559
November 2018
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by teabaggins on Feb 20, 2020 5:50:01 GMT 1, Is it actually a "Banksy" when it was created by refugees and just had a GDP label on it? It makes sense why it wouldn't come with a COA? It would be similar to the wall pieces in the hotel. Its is a Banksy. That can not possibly be up for debate.
This thread has truly gone mental at this point. Breakout the tin foil hats
Is it actually a "Banksy" when it was created by refugees and just had a GDP label on it? It makes sense why it wouldn't come with a COA? It would be similar to the wall pieces in the hotel. Its is a Banksy. That can not possibly be up for debate. This thread has truly gone mental at this point. Breakout the tin foil hats
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goodfish
New Member
Posts โข 115
Likes โข 178
November 2019
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by goodfish on Feb 20, 2020 6:34:39 GMT 1, You lot are f**kingmentalists Haha! I feel like shaking every one of them and shouting, "IT'S A BLOODY MAT WITH 'WELCOME' STITCHED ON IT!"
You lot are f**kingmentalists Haha! I feel like shaking every one of them and shouting, "IT'S A BLOODY MAT WITH 'WELCOME' STITCHED ON IT!"
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eliopp
New Member
Posts โข 216
Likes โข 244
September 2019
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by eliopp on Feb 20, 2020 7:42:22 GMT 1, Is it actually a "Banksy" when it was created by refugees and just had a GDP label on it? It makes sense why it wouldn't come with a COA? It would be similar to the wall pieces in the hotel.
Now I'm feeling sorry for kaws building all those thousands of toys himself
Is it actually a "Banksy" when it was created by refugees and just had a GDP label on it? It makes sense why it wouldn't come with a COA? It would be similar to the wall pieces in the hotel. Now I'm feeling sorry for kaws building all those thousands of toys himself
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mint
New Member
Posts โข 611
Likes โข 730
August 2007
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by mint on Feb 20, 2020 7:51:55 GMT 1, This site has become entertaining and really boring at the same time.
This site has become entertaining and really boring at the same time.
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by Yeah Yeah Yeah Round2 on Feb 20, 2020 8:10:36 GMT 1, This site has become entertaining and really boring at the same time.
Iโm trying to find a middle ground on the site, but itโs very difficult.
This site has become entertaining and really boring at the same time. Iโm trying to find a middle ground on the site, but itโs very difficult.
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pellets
New Member
Posts โข 758
Likes โข 751
October 2018
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by pellets on Feb 20, 2020 8:16:02 GMT 1, Banksy's beautiful social/sales/marketing experiment by gentlemental If the Mats were stated as โEdition of 1000โ at launch, they would either: 1. be part of the lottery (at ยฃ500 each) 2. OR priced to market (for maximum donations) The lottery isn't good - as it won't drive traffic to Love Welcomes - raising awareness for the cause. Labelling it LIMITED will only drive tens of thousands of flippers there - turning the conversation away from Refugees' plight to flipping market valuations etc. "Unlimited and NO COA" - instantly turned thousands of flippers off - as Unlimited/No COA items have no resale value. You would have to take a ยฃ500 gamble! Which explains why it took an hour to sell out 500 pieces of Banksy. Buyers during that hour - are likely a hard core Banksy fan, or someone who wants to help โ or a bit of both. There are some flippers who gambled, they are up on Ebay now - but far, far lesser than usual. Everyday folks would've stood no chance - had it been sold as "limited" above the ADD TO CART. If the Mats were genuinely unlimited: there really is no need to number them. Numbering an unlimited ed to prevent knockoffs wouldn't make sense. There will be very little demand for knock offs โ if it were unlimited. These Mats, unlike KAWS toys, are no design dรฉcor eye candy pieces. They are crude and rudimentary doormats โ the value is in the concept. There is no value in the actual (material/aesthetic aspect of the) thing. Which leads to what's going to happen with the next 500. As it is aligned with the Sales Strategy of GDP โ the first batch goes to the โmassesโ โ the second to โthe collectorsโ. The next 500 should be priced to market. This will raise enough money to last a long while โ very possibly much more than you would if it were unlimited. At 3k each โ it wouldโve raise ยฃ1.5 million. KAWS showed it can be done for an ed of 750. I'm sure the "waiting list" is a mile long. If they were unlimited, they would need to make 3,000 x ยฃ500 to make that same amount money. Keeping the workers busy for the sake of keeping them busy is just cruel. When each hour could bring in so much more money. This is why - there isn't a mention of "Don't worry, you'll get yours at ยฃ500, it's unlimited" messaging out at all. Finally - the demand is not unlimited. There are only so many hard core Banksy+Charity fans who are willing to pay ยฃ500 for a permanently unlimited, no COA piece. At last count โ that small number was around 500 ish. Thank you. Rant over. time for toasts, half boiled eggs and extra sweet coffee.
Out of interest, which half of the eggs did you boil?
Banksy's beautiful social/sales/marketing experiment by gentlemental If the Mats were stated as โEdition of 1000โ at launch, they would either: 1. be part of the lottery (at ยฃ500 each) 2. OR priced to market (for maximum donations) The lottery isn't good - as it won't drive traffic to Love Welcomes - raising awareness for the cause. Labelling it LIMITED will only drive tens of thousands of flippers there - turning the conversation away from Refugees' plight to flipping market valuations etc. "Unlimited and NO COA" - instantly turned thousands of flippers off - as Unlimited/No COA items have no resale value. You would have to take a ยฃ500 gamble! Which explains why it took an hour to sell out 500 pieces of Banksy. Buyers during that hour - are likely a hard core Banksy fan, or someone who wants to help โ or a bit of both. There are some flippers who gambled, they are up on Ebay now - but far, far lesser than usual. Everyday folks would've stood no chance - had it been sold as "limited" above the ADD TO CART. If the Mats were genuinely unlimited: there really is no need to number them. Numbering an unlimited ed to prevent knockoffs wouldn't make sense. There will be very little demand for knock offs โ if it were unlimited. These Mats, unlike KAWS toys, are no design dรฉcor eye candy pieces. They are crude and rudimentary doormats โ the value is in the concept. There is no value in the actual (material/aesthetic aspect of the) thing. Which leads to what's going to happen with the next 500. As it is aligned with the Sales Strategy of GDP โ the first batch goes to the โmassesโ โ the second to โthe collectorsโ. The next 500 should be priced to market. This will raise enough money to last a long while โ very possibly much more than you would if it were unlimited. At 3k each โ it wouldโve raise ยฃ1.5 million. KAWS showed it can be done for an ed of 750. I'm sure the "waiting list" is a mile long. If they were unlimited, they would need to make 3,000 x ยฃ500 to make that same amount money. Keeping the workers busy for the sake of keeping them busy is just cruel. When each hour could bring in so much more money. This is why - there isn't a mention of "Don't worry, you'll get yours at ยฃ500, it's unlimited" messaging out at all. Finally - the demand is not unlimited. There are only so many hard core Banksy+Charity fans who are willing to pay ยฃ500 for a permanently unlimited, no COA piece. At last count โ that small number was around 500 ish. Thank you. Rant over. time for toasts, half boiled eggs and extra sweet coffee. Out of interest, which half of the eggs did you boil?
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Deleted
Posts โข 0
Likes โข
January 1970
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by Deleted on Feb 20, 2020 8:16:33 GMT 1, Just wondering is anyone using the welcome mat for its intended purpose?
You mean as a door mat? Thatโs not its intended purpose.
Just wondering is anyone using the welcome mat for its intended purpose? You mean as a door mat? Thatโs not its intended purpose.
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Deleted
Posts โข 0
Likes โข
January 1970
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by Deleted on Feb 20, 2020 8:26:03 GMT 1, Just wondering is anyone using the welcome mat for its intended purpose?
These are almost remind me of the readymades of Marcel Duchamp, but obviously more of em.
Just wondering is anyone using the welcome mat for its intended purpose? These are almost remind me of the readymades of Marcel Duchamp, but obviously more of em.
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Dungle
Junior Member
Posts โข 4,007
Likes โข 5,172
June 2011
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by Dungle on Feb 20, 2020 8:26:36 GMT 1, You mean as a door mat? Thatโs not its intended purpose. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they are actually a doormat albeit a very expensive one.
Thatโs like saying is anyone using that piece of paper with a Banksy printed on it for its intended purpose? Do a drawing on it.
You mean as a door mat? Thatโs not its intended purpose. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they are actually a doormat albeit a very expensive one. Thatโs like saying is anyone using that piece of paper with a Banksy printed on it for its intended purpose? Do a drawing on it.
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Deleted
Posts โข 0
Likes โข
January 1970
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by Deleted on Feb 20, 2020 8:30:35 GMT 1, You mean as a door mat? Thatโs not its intended purpose. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they are actually a doormat albeit a very expensive one.
Youโre not wrong, but also youโre not right
You mean as a door mat? Thatโs not its intended purpose. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they are actually a doormat albeit a very expensive one. Youโre not wrong, but also youโre not right
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Deleted
Posts โข 0
Likes โข
January 1970
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by Deleted on Feb 20, 2020 8:36:37 GMT 1, You mean as a door mat? Thatโs not its intended purpose. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they are actually a doormat albeit a very expensive one. Look up Banksy's statement about them.
You mean as a door mat? Thatโs not its intended purpose. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they are actually a doormat albeit a very expensive one. Look up Banksy's statement about them.
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cnrdvln
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,404
Likes โข 1,489
February 2017
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by cnrdvln on Feb 20, 2020 9:50:20 GMT 1, anyone outside of UK received yet let me know...all quiet in Ireland
anyone outside of UK received yet let me know...all quiet in Ireland
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eyectopus
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,104
Likes โข 793
June 2008
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by eyectopus on Feb 20, 2020 10:04:19 GMT 1, anyone outside of UK received yet let me know...all quiet in Ireland
I'm in Ireland aswell and heard nothing yet either.
anyone outside of UK received yet let me know...all quiet in Ireland I'm in Ireland aswell and heard nothing yet either.
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by Coach on Feb 20, 2020 10:24:57 GMT 1, Just wondering is anyone using the welcome mat for its intended purpose? These are almost remind me of the readymades of Marcel Duchamp, but obviously more of em.
I can see the similarity in that an everyday object becomes a work of art. Unlike the mat though, the readymades were inordinate objects to begin with and were turned into art by being signed and exhibited, thereby declaring them works of art. And, as you say, they were usually one-offs. This is probably why you said โalmostโ; so Iโm not disagreeing with you. Quite the contrary, i think you make a valid comparison.
Just wondering is anyone using the welcome mat for its intended purpose? These are almost remind me of the readymades of Marcel Duchamp, but obviously more of em. I can see the similarity in that an everyday object becomes a work of art. Unlike the mat though, the readymades were inordinate objects to begin with and were turned into art by being signed and exhibited, thereby declaring them works of art. And, as you say, they were usually one-offs. This is probably why you said โalmostโ; so Iโm not disagreeing with you. Quite the contrary, i think you make a valid comparison.
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cnrdvln
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,404
Likes โข 1,489
February 2017
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by cnrdvln on Feb 20, 2020 10:59:57 GMT 1,
for anyone who missed out and wants to give to charity
for anyone who missed out and wants to give to charity
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withnail69
New Member
Posts โข 531
Likes โข 391
April 2018
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by withnail69 on Feb 20, 2020 11:45:55 GMT 1, United Conspiracy Association. I do sometimes feel like I have stumbled onto a forum for the criminally insane/mentally unstable
United Conspiracy Association. I do sometimes feel like I have stumbled onto a forum for the criminally insane/mentally unstable
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withnail69
New Member
Posts โข 531
Likes โข 391
April 2018
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by withnail69 on Feb 20, 2020 11:52:00 GMT 1, You mean as a door mat? Thatโs not its intended purpose. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they are actually a doormat albeit a very expensive one. I don't think the riot/disco hat wearers are wearing it to a riot or a disco
You mean as a door mat? Thatโs not its intended purpose. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they are actually a doormat albeit a very expensive one. I don't think the riot/disco hat wearers are wearing it to a riot or a disco
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Deleted
Posts โข 0
Likes โข
January 1970
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by Deleted on Feb 20, 2020 12:06:21 GMT 1, United Conspiracy Association. I do sometimes feel like I have stumbled onto a forum for the criminally insane/mentally unstable I mean, I think you may have...
United Conspiracy Association. I do sometimes feel like I have stumbled onto a forum for the criminally insane/mentally unstable I mean, I think you may have...
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Majestic
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,030
Likes โข 1,432
January 2016
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by Majestic on Feb 20, 2020 12:08:54 GMT 1, for anyone who missed out and wants to give to charity Really nice example too.
for anyone who missed out and wants to give to charity Really nice example too.
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Banksy Welcome Mat, by Duke Down Stairs on Feb 20, 2020 12:44:34 GMT 1, You mean as a door mat? Thatโs not its intended purpose. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they are actually a doormat albeit a very expensive one.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jeff Koons New Shelton Wet/Dry Doubledecker 1981 (collection MoMA) is just 2 vacuum cleaners, albeit very expensive ones.
You mean as a door mat? Thatโs not its intended purpose. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they are actually a doormat albeit a very expensive one. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jeff Koons New Shelton Wet/Dry Doubledecker 1981 (collection MoMA) is just 2 vacuum cleaners, albeit very expensive ones.
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