Jaylove
Junior Member
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November 2016
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by Jaylove on Jan 5, 2020 2:59:23 GMT 1, I'm seeing more and more sellers using this. I automatically ignore those auctions. My question is...why? Especially from UK sellers who know what it's like to pay duty through the nose. I don't use it when I sell. I've also heard of buyers paying for it and still getting charged duty. I figure let the courier/mailer handle the duty part?
Maybe there's a reason that I haven't thought of?
I'm seeing more and more sellers using this. I automatically ignore those auctions. My question is...why? Especially from UK sellers who know what it's like to pay duty through the nose. I don't use it when I sell. I've also heard of buyers paying for it and still getting charged duty. I figure let the courier/mailer handle the duty part?
Maybe there's a reason that I haven't thought of?
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stelio
New Member
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May 2014
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by stelio on Jan 5, 2020 3:10:27 GMT 1, For insurance purposes. If damaged in transit, global shipping covers it with little to no hassle since they shipped it from their local hub.
For insurance purposes. If damaged in transit, global shipping covers it with little to no hassle since they shipped it from their local hub.
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LJCal
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,984
👍🏻 4,523
December 2019
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by LJCal on Jan 5, 2020 3:19:10 GMT 1, Yes it’s utter bollocks. They charge duty up front on items that are often exempt. I was going to buy a Jonas Wood book and print and they wanted me to pay 400usd of duty when the duty is zero. Presumably you could claim it back but it was such a faf I just didn’t bother.
Yes it’s utter bollocks. They charge duty up front on items that are often exempt. I was going to buy a Jonas Wood book and print and they wanted me to pay 400usd of duty when the duty is zero. Presumably you could claim it back but it was such a faf I just didn’t bother.
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Jaylove
Junior Member
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November 2016
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by Jaylove on Jan 5, 2020 3:19:15 GMT 1, For insurance purposes. If damaged in transit, global shipping covers it with little to no hassle since they shipped it from their local hub. I see. But can't you just insure the package through the shipper? You can buy insurance. At least I have some reasoning as to why it's growing in popularity. Not fun for buyers outside of the UK or US.
For insurance purposes. If damaged in transit, global shipping covers it with little to no hassle since they shipped it from their local hub. I see. But can't you just insure the package through the shipper? You can buy insurance. At least I have some reasoning as to why it's growing in popularity. Not fun for buyers outside of the UK or US.
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Jaylove
Junior Member
🗨️ 1,599
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November 2016
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by Jaylove on Jan 5, 2020 3:20:47 GMT 1, Yes it’s utter bollocks. They charge duty up front on items that are often exempt. I was going to buy a Jonas Wood book and print and they wanted me to pay 400usd of duty when the duty is zero. Presumably you could claim it back but it was such a faf I just didn’t bother. I've seen that too. Which is why I have a problem with it. It's not accurate and buyers get gouged.
I wouldn't even want to go through the process of claiming it back...you never know. They may find a way to not give it to you.
Yes it’s utter bollocks. They charge duty up front on items that are often exempt. I was going to buy a Jonas Wood book and print and they wanted me to pay 400usd of duty when the duty is zero. Presumably you could claim it back but it was such a faf I just didn’t bother. I've seen that too. Which is why I have a problem with it. It's not accurate and buyers get gouged. I wouldn't even want to go through the process of claiming it back...you never know. They may find a way to not give it to you.
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stelio
New Member
🗨️ 391
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May 2014
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by stelio on Jan 5, 2020 3:59:09 GMT 1, For insurance purposes. If damaged in transit, global shipping covers it with little to no hassle since they shipped it from their local hub. I see. But can't you just insure the package through the shipper? You can buy insurance. At least I have some reasoning as to why it's growing in popularity. Not fun for buyers outside of the UK or US.
Sometimes claims can be a pain to get paid on a value of the print. With that global shipping program, from my personal experience, they don’t even ask. Whatever it sold for on ebay is what they pay out. No hassle. Can’t say that for us insurance through USPS, the most common used because of price. They like deny claims at first if they can.
For insurance purposes. If damaged in transit, global shipping covers it with little to no hassle since they shipped it from their local hub. I see. But can't you just insure the package through the shipper? You can buy insurance. At least I have some reasoning as to why it's growing in popularity. Not fun for buyers outside of the UK or US. Sometimes claims can be a pain to get paid on a value of the print. With that global shipping program, from my personal experience, they don’t even ask. Whatever it sold for on ebay is what they pay out. No hassle. Can’t say that for us insurance through USPS, the most common used because of price. They like deny claims at first if they can.
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by Happy Shopper on Jan 5, 2020 11:15:40 GMT 1, Yep, the one good thing about it is Buyer and Seller both get their money back automatically. Bad part is the delivery they use isn’t usually “signed for”. They just leave things on the doorstep, like amazon. And the high import duty on things that should be lower or none!
Yep, the one good thing about it is Buyer and Seller both get their money back automatically. Bad part is the delivery they use isn’t usually “signed for”. They just leave things on the doorstep, like amazon. And the high import duty on things that should be lower or none!
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andi
New Member
🗨️ 190
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December 2013
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by andi on Jan 6, 2020 21:49:20 GMT 1, Yep, the one good thing about it is Buyer and Seller both get their money back automatically. Bad part is the delivery they use isn’t usually “signed for”. They just leave things on the doorstep, like amazon. And the high import duty on things that should be lower or none! I can confirm that - I recently bought a print from the UK, tube was opened because they checked it and they did not close it properly. The print had a few really small dents, they just replaced the 1k and I can keep the print, the seller also can keep his money. I bought quite a few things over GSP (but only within the EU) and never had any issue.
Yep, the one good thing about it is Buyer and Seller both get their money back automatically. Bad part is the delivery they use isn’t usually “signed for”. They just leave things on the doorstep, like amazon. And the high import duty on things that should be lower or none! I can confirm that - I recently bought a print from the UK, tube was opened because they checked it and they did not close it properly. The print had a few really small dents, they just replaced the 1k and I can keep the print, the seller also can keep his money. I bought quite a few things over GSP (but only within the EU) and never had any issue.
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winston
New Member
🗨️ 222
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August 2014
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by winston on Jan 8, 2020 14:48:31 GMT 1, It’s an awful system.... hate it
It’s an awful system.... hate it
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by Banksy Matrix on Jan 8, 2020 15:39:06 GMT 1, I agree - a terrible system full of flaws. Sending prints from the USA to UK they always add at least 20% for import and duties when it should be 5%. I've tried multiple times to have them check and lower prices/make a claim but they won't listen - seems like a right con! I'd rather deal directly with the shipping agent.
I agree - a terrible system full of flaws. Sending prints from the USA to UK they always add at least 20% for import and duties when it should be 5%. I've tried multiple times to have them check and lower prices/make a claim but they won't listen - seems like a right con! I'd rather deal directly with the shipping agent.
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by christiangul on Jan 9, 2020 13:12:43 GMT 1, Sellers on ebay miss a lot of potential buyers using this system. I never buy anything with that program because it adds a lot of unnecessary costs on top of the item.
Sellers on ebay miss a lot of potential buyers using this system. I never buy anything with that program because it adds a lot of unnecessary costs on top of the item.
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by Charlesworth on Jan 9, 2020 14:21:02 GMT 1, I have sold a few cheap prints on ebay recently and when they sold the shipping address was to the GSP warehouse in the uk. I hadnt even heard of it until then so i guessed it was something the buyer aranged? I wasnt given an option in the listing to use GSP
I have sold a few cheap prints on ebay recently and when they sold the shipping address was to the GSP warehouse in the uk. I hadnt even heard of it until then so i guessed it was something the buyer aranged? I wasnt given an option in the listing to use GSP
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Jaylove
Junior Member
🗨️ 1,599
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November 2016
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by Jaylove on Jan 9, 2020 14:29:22 GMT 1, I have sold a few cheap prints on ebay recently and when they sold the shipping address was to the GSP warehouse in the uk. I hadnt even heard of it until then so i guessed it was something the buyer aranged? I wasnt given an option in the listing to use GSP Interesting. I have a feeling it will go this way in the future. Just another way to rip people off.
I have sold a few cheap prints on ebay recently and when they sold the shipping address was to the GSP warehouse in the uk. I hadnt even heard of it until then so i guessed it was something the buyer aranged? I wasnt given an option in the listing to use GSP Interesting. I have a feeling it will go this way in the future. Just another way to rip people off.
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by Charlesworth on Jan 9, 2020 14:45:31 GMT 1, I forgot to add the buyers were in Europe
I have sold a few cheap prints on ebay recently and when they sold the shipping address was to the GSP warehouse in the uk. I hadnt even heard of it until then so i guessed it was something the buyer aranged? I wasnt given an option in the listing to use GSP Interesting. I have a feeling it will go this way in the future. Just another way to rip people off.
I forgot to add the buyers were in Europe I have sold a few cheap prints on ebay recently and when they sold the shipping address was to the GSP warehouse in the uk. I hadnt even heard of it until then so i guessed it was something the buyer aranged? I wasnt given an option in the listing to use GSP Interesting. I have a feeling it will go this way in the future. Just another way to rip people off.
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by Terry Fuckwitt on Jan 9, 2020 15:11:27 GMT 1, I forgot to add the buyers were in Europe Interesting. I have a feeling it will go this way in the future. Just another way to rip people off.
I think everyone is enrolled into GSP, but you have the option to opt out...or at least it used to be like that.
I forgot to add the buyers were in Europe Interesting. I have a feeling it will go this way in the future. Just another way to rip people off. I think everyone is enrolled into GSP, but you have the option to opt out...or at least it used to be like that.
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by Happy Shopper on Jan 9, 2020 15:12:44 GMT 1, I have sold a few cheap prints on ebay recently and when they sold the shipping address was to the GSP warehouse in the uk. I hadnt even heard of it until then so i guessed it was something the buyer aranged? I wasnt given an option in the listing to use GSP It's a default when you make a new listing. You have to change it to another shipping method.
I have sold a few cheap prints on ebay recently and when they sold the shipping address was to the GSP warehouse in the uk. I hadnt even heard of it until then so i guessed it was something the buyer aranged? I wasnt given an option in the listing to use GSP It's a default when you make a new listing. You have to change it to another shipping method.
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by forcedtojoin on Jan 9, 2020 15:34:21 GMT 1, I have sold a few cheap prints on ebay recently and when they sold the shipping address was to the GSP warehouse in the uk. I hadnt even heard of it until then so i guessed it was something the buyer aranged? I wasnt given an option in the listing to use GSP It's a default when you make a new listing. You have to change it to another shipping method.
Yep. It brings in a lot of sales from people who are happily paying what’s asked. You also don’t have to worry about buyers not picking up their packages to avoid the import tax. It’s extremely convenient.
As a seller it’s amazing because your only responsible to get your package to the global shipping hub. Once they have it your job is done. Doesn’t matter if it gets destroyed on the other half of the journey, you’re covered and so is your buyer.
Like he said it’s also default setting on all listings created on a mobile phone.
I have sold a few cheap prints on ebay recently and when they sold the shipping address was to the GSP warehouse in the uk. I hadnt even heard of it until then so i guessed it was something the buyer aranged? I wasnt given an option in the listing to use GSP It's a default when you make a new listing. You have to change it to another shipping method. Yep. It brings in a lot of sales from people who are happily paying what’s asked. You also don’t have to worry about buyers not picking up their packages to avoid the import tax. It’s extremely convenient. As a seller it’s amazing because your only responsible to get your package to the global shipping hub. Once they have it your job is done. Doesn’t matter if it gets destroyed on the other half of the journey, you’re covered and so is your buyer. Like he said it’s also default setting on all listings created on a mobile phone.
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by Terry Fuckwitt on Jan 9, 2020 15:42:53 GMT 1, It does state on the terms that 'fine arts' are prohibited. Surely screen prints would come under fine arts, but a member here said that they received a damaged print and got fully reimbursed. Certainly would have to be careful shipping prints or other art if its in their t&c's.
It does state on the terms that 'fine arts' are prohibited. Surely screen prints would come under fine arts, but a member here said that they received a damaged print and got fully reimbursed. Certainly would have to be careful shipping prints or other art if its in their t&c's.
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by Charlesworth on Jan 9, 2020 17:09:04 GMT 1, I listed all my items on my phone so its prob why it was an option for the buyer
It's a default when you make a new listing. You have to change it to another shipping method. Yep. It brings in a lot of sales from people who are happily paying what’s asked. You also don’t have to worry about buyers not picking up their packages to avoid the import tax. It’s extremely convenient. As a seller it’s amazing because your only responsible to get your package to the global shipping hub. Once they have it your job is done. Doesn’t matter if it gets destroyed on the other half of the journey, you’re covered and so is your buyer. Like he said it’s also default setting on all listings created on a mobile phone.
I listed all my items on my phone so its prob why it was an option for the buyer It's a default when you make a new listing. You have to change it to another shipping method. Yep. It brings in a lot of sales from people who are happily paying what’s asked. You also don’t have to worry about buyers not picking up their packages to avoid the import tax. It’s extremely convenient. As a seller it’s amazing because your only responsible to get your package to the global shipping hub. Once they have it your job is done. Doesn’t matter if it gets destroyed on the other half of the journey, you’re covered and so is your buyer. Like he said it’s also default setting on all listings created on a mobile phone.
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moron
Junior Member
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September 2017
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by moron on Jan 19, 2020 16:37:32 GMT 1, It's better to ship direct rather than send to a shipping center and wait for them to send it to a buyer. Ship direct well packed with full tracking and insurance.
The Global Shipping Center workers have the right to open packages before sending them out.
It's better to ship direct rather than send to a shipping center and wait for them to send it to a buyer. Ship direct well packed with full tracking and insurance.
The Global Shipping Center workers have the right to open packages before sending them out.
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by That Print Guy on Jan 19, 2020 16:45:59 GMT 1, It's better to ship direct rather than send to a shipping center and wait for them to send it to a buyer. Ship direct well packed with full tracking and insurance. The Global Shipping Center workers have the right to open packages before sending them out.
First class no insurance low declared value gift with bomb proof packaging. Works every time.
Or just use GSP to sell and like others have said, if something goes wrong both sides get compensated. I don't see how that's sustainable but that's the way it works now.
It's better to ship direct rather than send to a shipping center and wait for them to send it to a buyer. Ship direct well packed with full tracking and insurance. The Global Shipping Center workers have the right to open packages before sending them out. First class no insurance low declared value gift with bomb proof packaging. Works every time. Or just use GSP to sell and like others have said, if something goes wrong both sides get compensated. I don't see how that's sustainable but that's the way it works now.
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by Art Fan 2011 on Jan 19, 2020 17:19:01 GMT 1, US based sellers are missing out on alot of sales to the UK / EU by using the GSP programme. I like many others ignore any seller using this: the shipping takes forever (usually week`s instead of days), they use poor quality couriers (Yodel / Hermes in the UK - who are both amongst the worst), and worst of all the crazy 20% blanket import charges upfront even if the item is exempt from charges or is eligible for reduced charges.
I am unsure if the US sellers are aware of these issues and that they are missing out on countless sales from non-US based buyers.
Buyers are protected when buying through ebay, providing things are correctly packed and items are genuine then seller`s should have no issues either. The GSP is open to abuse and id be wary about buying from seller`s using it (even if you ignore its obvious flaws)
US based sellers are missing out on alot of sales to the UK / EU by using the GSP programme. I like many others ignore any seller using this: the shipping takes forever (usually week`s instead of days), they use poor quality couriers (Yodel / Hermes in the UK - who are both amongst the worst), and worst of all the crazy 20% blanket import charges upfront even if the item is exempt from charges or is eligible for reduced charges.
I am unsure if the US sellers are aware of these issues and that they are missing out on countless sales from non-US based buyers.
Buyers are protected when buying through ebay, providing things are correctly packed and items are genuine then seller`s should have no issues either. The GSP is open to abuse and id be wary about buying from seller`s using it (even if you ignore its obvious flaws)
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moron
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,711
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September 2017
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by moron on Jan 19, 2020 17:56:03 GMT 1, The big problem with international selling is the high in comparison postage charges when sending low value items with tracking. When being paid via Paypal, tracking and signed for delivery is a must becaus eof the scammer buyers who receive the package and then make a Paypal claim when it is sent without tracking and as always the onus is on the seller to prove delivery.
The big problem with international selling is the high in comparison postage charges when sending low value items with tracking. When being paid via Paypal, tracking and signed for delivery is a must becaus eof the scammer buyers who receive the package and then make a Paypal claim when it is sent without tracking and as always the onus is on the seller to prove delivery.
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jimmyjam
New Member
🗨️ 578
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October 2019
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by jimmyjam on Jan 19, 2020 17:57:50 GMT 1, You can bulletproof a package all you want but if it's lost... it's lost and the seller is screwed. Also, too many sketchy customers which ebay will not protect you from.
GSP is the only safeguard for selling internationally right now through Ebay; which is unfortunate. Sure lose a little money on the result but better than losing the entire amount in transit (damaged/lost) which happens way too much. Little nick to a print or anything during transit and you are screwed without GSP.
This is more of a problem with Ebay in general than sellers/buyers. Ebay needs to protect the sellers a little better in general. If they protected the sellers at all, no one would use this service but they don't.
Do worry people in the US will now have to deal with a 25% tariff on all art from the UK. So GSP isn't the worst thing.
You can bulletproof a package all you want but if it's lost... it's lost and the seller is screwed. Also, too many sketchy customers which ebay will not protect you from.
GSP is the only safeguard for selling internationally right now through Ebay; which is unfortunate. Sure lose a little money on the result but better than losing the entire amount in transit (damaged/lost) which happens way too much. Little nick to a print or anything during transit and you are screwed without GSP.
This is more of a problem with Ebay in general than sellers/buyers. Ebay needs to protect the sellers a little better in general. If they protected the sellers at all, no one would use this service but they don't.
Do worry people in the US will now have to deal with a 25% tariff on all art from the UK. So GSP isn't the worst thing.
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moron
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,711
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September 2017
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by moron on Jan 19, 2020 18:07:23 GMT 1, What about the Thunberg global climate wombat change that each package sent to Global Shipping center adds more carbon to the equation.
It's very hard though competing with Chinese sellers who offer free shipping with sales because the Chinese gov subsidises postage costs.
Whereas shipping from US to Europe and vice versa is very expensive.
What about the Thunberg global climate wombat change that each package sent to Global Shipping center adds more carbon to the equation.
It's very hard though competing with Chinese sellers who offer free shipping with sales because the Chinese gov subsidises postage costs.
Whereas shipping from US to Europe and vice versa is very expensive.
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Jaylove
Junior Member
🗨️ 1,599
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November 2016
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by Jaylove on Jan 19, 2020 19:08:23 GMT 1, You can bulletproof a package all you want but if it's lost... it's lost and the seller is screwed. Also, too many sketchy customers which ebay will not protect you from. GSP is the only safeguard for selling internationally right now through Ebay; which is unfortunate. Sure lose a little money on the result but better than losing the entire amount in transit (damaged/lost) which happens way too much. Little nick to a print or anything during transit and you are screwed without GSP. This is more of a problem with Ebay in general than sellers/buyers. Ebay needs to protect the sellers a little better in general. If they protected the sellers at all, no one would use this service but they don't. Do worry people in the US will now have to deal with a 25% tariff on all art from the UK. So GSP isn't the worst thing. If that's the case, the seller should sell the item for less. Your buyer is paying an arm and a leg in duties often times more than required. I'll see sellers with overpriced stuff and also have GSP. The problem with ebay and paypal are there are no other sidely available competitors so they are able to jack up everything.
I have done the low value with tracking thing and have had no issues with lost packages. I do acknowledge that it's possible though. If your print is opened by some jackass at customs and he/she damages it, you're screwed. That actually happened to me, luckily the damage wasn't too bad, but I couldn't get compensated since I told the seller to put a low value. I guess it's the risk you're willing to take. You have to hope the seller packages the print properly and uses direct shipping.
You can bulletproof a package all you want but if it's lost... it's lost and the seller is screwed. Also, too many sketchy customers which ebay will not protect you from. GSP is the only safeguard for selling internationally right now through Ebay; which is unfortunate. Sure lose a little money on the result but better than losing the entire amount in transit (damaged/lost) which happens way too much. Little nick to a print or anything during transit and you are screwed without GSP. This is more of a problem with Ebay in general than sellers/buyers. Ebay needs to protect the sellers a little better in general. If they protected the sellers at all, no one would use this service but they don't. Do worry people in the US will now have to deal with a 25% tariff on all art from the UK. So GSP isn't the worst thing. If that's the case, the seller should sell the item for less. Your buyer is paying an arm and a leg in duties often times more than required. I'll see sellers with overpriced stuff and also have GSP. The problem with ebay and paypal are there are no other sidely available competitors so they are able to jack up everything. I have done the low value with tracking thing and have had no issues with lost packages. I do acknowledge that it's possible though. If your print is opened by some jackass at customs and he/she damages it, you're screwed. That actually happened to me, luckily the damage wasn't too bad, but I couldn't get compensated since I told the seller to put a low value. I guess it's the risk you're willing to take. You have to hope the seller packages the print properly and uses direct shipping.
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by Art Fan 2011 on Jan 19, 2020 19:36:29 GMT 1, If the seller correctly packs the art / item (those Yazoo tubes you guys have are pretty bullet proof!) and sends it with insurance then its highly unlikely any problems will be faced. The amount of items that actually go missing is tiny so a total loss would be very unusual. Making UK/EU buyers pay 20% in taxes even when they are often not applicable is crazy, hence why they are now put off from buying anything from US buyers via ebay.
I know prices to ship US - UK are a little higher than the other way around, but id rather pay the actaul shipping costs than use GSP any day.
Imagine what will happen if US buyers do actually end up facing 25% taxes when buying from the UK - I suspect they will be less keen to buy too say the least
If the seller correctly packs the art / item (those Yazoo tubes you guys have are pretty bullet proof!) and sends it with insurance then its highly unlikely any problems will be faced. The amount of items that actually go missing is tiny so a total loss would be very unusual. Making UK/EU buyers pay 20% in taxes even when they are often not applicable is crazy, hence why they are now put off from buying anything from US buyers via ebay.
I know prices to ship US - UK are a little higher than the other way around, but id rather pay the actaul shipping costs than use GSP any day.
Imagine what will happen if US buyers do actually end up facing 25% taxes when buying from the UK - I suspect they will be less keen to buy too say the least
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Jaylove
Junior Member
🗨️ 1,599
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November 2016
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by Jaylove on Jan 19, 2020 20:09:43 GMT 1, Not just UK buyers. Canadians have to pay those ridiculous charges too.
Not just UK buyers. Canadians have to pay those ridiculous charges too.
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by Rouen Cathedral on Jan 20, 2020 0:53:10 GMT 1, As others have said it’s really the only way to feel protected as a US seller shipping internationally to someone you don’t know.
As others have said it’s really the only way to feel protected as a US seller shipping internationally to someone you don’t know.
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NYart
Junior Member
🗨️ 1,221
👍🏻 844
January 2016
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More ebay sellers using Global Shipping Program Why?, by NYart on Jan 20, 2020 2:37:59 GMT 1, US seller here.. I don’t use GSP cause I know you guys hate it. Afraid between that and honoring “declare low value” requests I’m going to take a big loss one day. Just hope if the day comes you guys appreciate I’m just trying to help and don’t make me eat the loss 😂
US seller here.. I don’t use GSP cause I know you guys hate it. Afraid between that and honoring “declare low value” requests I’m going to take a big loss one day. Just hope if the day comes you guys appreciate I’m just trying to help and don’t make me eat the loss 😂
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