tsteve
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 93
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February 2012
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FS: BAST Original, KAWS, Beejoir, Stinkfish +, by tsteve on Feb 17, 2012 0:38:07 GMT 1, So a piece moves 3 times in 6 months Of its original purchase - does anyone actually have a view on this? From what Harveyn said it has moved twice, whether a piece move's several times in 6 weeks 6 months or 6years, what gives anybody the right to make moral judgments over somebody else's property.
I generally have to agree with the above. Other than a sale by the artist to someone for less than the going rate, with the understanding that it is for their collection, any other sales on the open market--whether here, in a gallery, on ebay or elsewhere are really no one else's business.
So a piece moves 3 times in 6 months Of its original purchase - does anyone actually have a view on this? From what Harveyn said it has moved twice, whether a piece move's several times in 6 weeks 6 months or 6years, what gives anybody the right to make moral judgments over somebody else's property. I generally have to agree with the above. Other than a sale by the artist to someone for less than the going rate, with the understanding that it is for their collection, any other sales on the open market--whether here, in a gallery, on ebay or elsewhere are really no one else's business. |
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mmmike
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March 2010
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FS: BAST Original, KAWS, Beejoir, Stinkfish +, by mmmike on Feb 17, 2012 1:24:56 GMT 1, From my understanding pricing usually includes VAT. Some refund overseas VAT and some don't. Laz IMO does the sneakiest thing in that it provides two different receipts one to domestic buyers which show the portion of the total cost that is VAT, and for international buyers shows the whole amount as cost. That way they are about to essentially charge international buyers VAT and keep it themselves rather than submitting it to the tax man. This is how it works with the editions at least. It has been posted here that at least one person has been refunded VAT. I would guess on a large purchase. I was not so lucky when I made a purchase of a modest print. I've bought numerous pieces through Laz over the years, VAT has always, always, been deducted.
Originals or editions? Maybe that is the difference or maybe it is a new thing. Bought a Zevs print and they confirmed they were not charging VAT but were charging the same price as the VAT included price for locals. It was like pulling teeth to get the information from them but they finally confirmed that to be the case.
From my understanding pricing usually includes VAT. Some refund overseas VAT and some don't. Laz IMO does the sneakiest thing in that it provides two different receipts one to domestic buyers which show the portion of the total cost that is VAT, and for international buyers shows the whole amount as cost. That way they are about to essentially charge international buyers VAT and keep it themselves rather than submitting it to the tax man. This is how it works with the editions at least. It has been posted here that at least one person has been refunded VAT. I would guess on a large purchase. I was not so lucky when I made a purchase of a modest print. I've bought numerous pieces through Laz over the years, VAT has always, always, been deducted. Originals or editions? Maybe that is the difference or maybe it is a new thing. Bought a Zevs print and they confirmed they were not charging VAT but were charging the same price as the VAT included price for locals. It was like pulling teeth to get the information from them but they finally confirmed that to be the case. |
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tsteve
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 93
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February 2012
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FS: BAST Original, KAWS, Beejoir, Stinkfish +, by tsteve on Feb 17, 2012 3:04:42 GMT 1, I've bought numerous pieces through Laz over the years, VAT has always, always, been deducted. Originals or editions? Maybe that is the difference or maybe it is a new thing. Bought a Zevs print and they confirmed they were not charging VAT but were charging the same price as the VAT included price for locals. It was like pulling teeth to get the information from them but they finally confirmed that to be the case.
I am not sure that I understand this last post. Are you saying that if the VAT inclusive price was 1,175, which would equate to a price of 1,000, with 17.5% VAT added, that they would charge a higher price to foreigners who are not liable for VAT? It would seem to me that this is rather despicable, in that the gallery is not liable for the VAT, and is just taking advantage of and overcharging foreign customers.
I would appreciate any clarification. Is there any UK law that regulates whether posted prices must include VAT, or that a clear disclosure in a shop or on a website is required as to whether prices are or are not VAT inclusive?
I have read the VAT sticky on the main page, but it does not address these issues.
I've bought numerous pieces through Laz over the years, VAT has always, always, been deducted. Originals or editions? Maybe that is the difference or maybe it is a new thing. Bought a Zevs print and they confirmed they were not charging VAT but were charging the same price as the VAT included price for locals. It was like pulling teeth to get the information from them but they finally confirmed that to be the case. I am not sure that I understand this last post. Are you saying that if the VAT inclusive price was 1,175, which would equate to a price of 1,000, with 17.5% VAT added, that they would charge a higher price to foreigners who are not liable for VAT? It would seem to me that this is rather despicable, in that the gallery is not liable for the VAT, and is just taking advantage of and overcharging foreign customers. I would appreciate any clarification. Is there any UK law that regulates whether posted prices must include VAT, or that a clear disclosure in a shop or on a website is required as to whether prices are or are not VAT inclusive? I have read the VAT sticky on the main page, but it does not address these issues. |
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mmmike
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,421
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March 2010
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FS: BAST Original, KAWS, Beejoir, Stinkfish +, by mmmike on Feb 17, 2012 4:30:17 GMT 1, Originals or editions? Maybe that is the difference or maybe it is a new thing. Bought a Zevs print and they confirmed they were not charging VAT but were charging the same price as the VAT included price for locals. It was like pulling teeth to get the information from them but they finally confirmed that to be the case. I am not sure that I understand this last post. Are you saying that if the VAT inclusive price was 1,175, which would equate to a price of 1,000, with 17.5% VAT added, that they would charge a higher price to foreigners who are not liable for VAT? It would seem to me that this is rather despicable, in that the gallery is not liable for the VAT, and is just taking advantage of and overcharging foreign customers. I would appreciate any clarification. Is there any UK law that regulates whether posted prices must include VAT, or that a clear disclosure in a shop or on a website is required as to whether prices are or are not VAT inclusive? I have read the VAT sticky on the main page, but it does not address these issues.
You got it. Not sure what the law is terms of including VAT or not. But when the latest Zevs prints came out people posted copies of the receipts. Both UK and international buys paid the same (before shipping charges) but the international receipt showed the before VAT price as the same as the final price and the UK receipt showed the before VAT price as lower, then showed the VAT and the totals were the same. I emailed Laz and after several emails they confirmed that international buyers were not charged VAT the price was the price and if you don't like it you didn't have to buy it.
It is a great scam if you can get away with it I suppose.
Originals or editions? Maybe that is the difference or maybe it is a new thing. Bought a Zevs print and they confirmed they were not charging VAT but were charging the same price as the VAT included price for locals. It was like pulling teeth to get the information from them but they finally confirmed that to be the case. I am not sure that I understand this last post. Are you saying that if the VAT inclusive price was 1,175, which would equate to a price of 1,000, with 17.5% VAT added, that they would charge a higher price to foreigners who are not liable for VAT? It would seem to me that this is rather despicable, in that the gallery is not liable for the VAT, and is just taking advantage of and overcharging foreign customers. I would appreciate any clarification. Is there any UK law that regulates whether posted prices must include VAT, or that a clear disclosure in a shop or on a website is required as to whether prices are or are not VAT inclusive? I have read the VAT sticky on the main page, but it does not address these issues. You got it. Not sure what the law is terms of including VAT or not. But when the latest Zevs prints came out people posted copies of the receipts. Both UK and international buys paid the same (before shipping charges) but the international receipt showed the before VAT price as the same as the final price and the UK receipt showed the before VAT price as lower, then showed the VAT and the totals were the same. I emailed Laz and after several emails they confirmed that international buyers were not charged VAT the price was the price and if you don't like it you didn't have to buy it. It is a great scam if you can get away with it I suppose. |
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misterx
Junior Member
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December 2010
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FS: BAST Original, KAWS, Beejoir, Stinkfish +, by misterx on Feb 17, 2012 4:56:40 GMT 1, mmmikes spot on.
Also bought the latest ZEVS LV print, was charged full price ala the English buyers even though I am in OZ.
mmmikes spot on.
Also bought the latest ZEVS LV print, was charged full price ala the English buyers even though I am in OZ.
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baznyc
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October 2008
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FS: BAST Original, KAWS, Beejoir, Stinkfish +, by baznyc on Feb 17, 2012 13:52:26 GMT 1, Purely in the interest of balance, I have bought 5 micallef pieces of art, Conor Harrington and Bast works from the Lazarides Gallery. I've also visited the various exhibitions in New york, London and the one in that part of the world where all of the chicks wear t Shirts in minus temperatures. On every occasion the staff have been easy to deal with and genuinely helpful.
Don't get me wrong you would want and expect gallery staff to be this way, just as they are at New Image Art, Stolen space, Elms and all of the others that I've been to. However one of two posts seem a little subjective in their criticism so in the interests of a balanced debate I thought I'd put my 2 cents in.
Purely in the interest of balance, I have bought 5 micallef pieces of art, Conor Harrington and Bast works from the Lazarides Gallery. I've also visited the various exhibitions in New york, London and the one in that part of the world where all of the chicks wear t Shirts in minus temperatures. On every occasion the staff have been easy to deal with and genuinely helpful.
Don't get me wrong you would want and expect gallery staff to be this way, just as they are at New Image Art, Stolen space, Elms and all of the others that I've been to. However one of two posts seem a little subjective in their criticism so in the interests of a balanced debate I thought I'd put my 2 cents in.
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jusdeep
Junior Member
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October 2007
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FS: BAST Original, KAWS, Beejoir, Stinkfish +, by jusdeep on Feb 17, 2012 14:02:23 GMT 1, I too have bought several pieces from the gallery and have attended numerous events over the years and always found the staff to be helpful and informative. Although I have witnessed certain members of staff at The Outsiders pidgeon-holing and tarring buyers with the flipper tag, slagging off members on this forum, whether it be for having an opinion of their own or selling their wares on the secondary market. Hardly a very professional way of acting for a business.
I too have bought several pieces from the gallery and have attended numerous events over the years and always found the staff to be helpful and informative. Although I have witnessed certain members of staff at The Outsiders pidgeon-holing and tarring buyers with the flipper tag, slagging off members on this forum, whether it be for having an opinion of their own or selling their wares on the secondary market. Hardly a very professional way of acting for a business.
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Harveyn
Full Member
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July 2007
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FS: BAST Original, KAWS, Beejoir, Stinkfish +, by Harveyn on Feb 18, 2012 13:18:34 GMT 1, Slight reduction on the Stinkfish & Beejoir originals.
Stinkfisk - ยฃ250 - ยฃ240 delivered to the UK which is below cost.
Beejoir "Cross" - Signed Original (Edition 3) - ยฃ275 - ยฃ230 delivered to the UK.
Slight reduction on the Stinkfish & Beejoir originals. Stinkfisk - ยฃ250 - ยฃ240 delivered to the UK which is below cost. Beejoir "Cross" - Signed Original (Edition 3) - ยฃ275 - ยฃ230 delivered to the UK. |
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MGK1
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Member is Online
May 2010
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FS: BAST Original, KAWS, Beejoir, Stinkfish +, by MGK1 on Feb 19, 2012 1:54:25 GMT 1, I've also visited the various exhibitions in New york, London and the one in that part of the world where all of the chicks wear t Shirts in minus temperatures.
i think t-shirts is a bit generous mate!
i think we just all have to hope all this malarkey does'nt put BAST off releasing his art at the prices he does - he does a sterling service to collectors of his work!
I've also visited the various exhibitions in New york, London and the one in that part of the world where all of the chicks wear t Shirts in minus temperatures. i think t-shirts is a bit generous mate! i think we just all have to hope all this malarkey does'nt put BAST off releasing his art at the prices he does - he does a sterling service to collectors of his work! |
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johnnyh
Junior Member
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March 2011
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FS: BAST Original, KAWS, Beejoir, Stinkfish +, by johnnyh on Feb 19, 2012 4:03:36 GMT 1, That I think is true as so nice to see an artist who does that. I also think people who get them at those prices should not trade them on. So I think whoever had it first was wrong in my book to buy it and trade it when it could have went to someone who wanted it. Harvey got it from the first owner so what he did with it is his business. Same as myself.
However very glad it's found a safe and loving home now. It wil not see the market again unless I snuff it !!!!!
That I think is true as so nice to see an artist who does that. I also think people who get them at those prices should not trade them on. So I think whoever had it first was wrong in my book to buy it and trade it when it could have went to someone who wanted it. Harvey got it from the first owner so what he did with it is his business. Same as myself.
However very glad it's found a safe and loving home now. It wil not see the market again unless I snuff it !!!!!
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FS: BAST Original, KAWS, Beejoir, Stinkfish +, by dlton on Feb 19, 2012 5:17:41 GMT 1, I don't know what the big fuss is about, its obvious that most people on this forum don't keep a piece on their wall for more than a year before flogging it on, especially Harveyn.
Fuck the ''Art for Sale - Swap'' thread has more posts than ANY of the other forum threads, does that not tell you something about the people on here.
I do find it sad that pieces are sold so quickly, yes I understand that you have no room for all of the art that you buy, but it does seem like theres a lot of blatant profiteering.
I don't know what the big fuss is about, its obvious that most people on this forum don't keep a piece on their wall for more than a year before flogging it on, especially Harveyn.
Fuck the ''Art for Sale - Swap'' thread has more posts than ANY of the other forum threads, does that not tell you something about the people on here.
I do find it sad that pieces are sold so quickly, yes I understand that you have no room for all of the art that you buy, but it does seem like theres a lot of blatant profiteering.
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loucastel
Junior Member
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October 2007
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FS: BAST Original, KAWS, Beejoir, Stinkfish +, by loucastel on Feb 19, 2012 11:04:10 GMT 1, I don't know what the big fuss is about, its obvious that most people on this forum don't keep a piece on their wall for more than a year before flogging it on, especially Harveyn. f**k the ''Art for Sale - Swap'' thread has more posts than ANY of the other forum threads, does that not tell you something about the people on here. I do find it sad that pieces are sold so quickly, yes I understand that you have no room for all of the art that you buy, but it does seem like theres a lot of blatant profiteering.
Let's start with closing all the gallery's shall we !!!
ps, good luck with you're sale Harveyn.
I don't know what the big fuss is about, its obvious that most people on this forum don't keep a piece on their wall for more than a year before flogging it on, especially Harveyn. f**k the ''Art for Sale - Swap'' thread has more posts than ANY of the other forum threads, does that not tell you something about the people on here. I do find it sad that pieces are sold so quickly, yes I understand that you have no room for all of the art that you buy, but it does seem like theres a lot of blatant profiteering. Let's start with closing all the gallery's shall we !!! ps, good luck with you're sale Harveyn. |
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maadbeats
Junior Member
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September 2007
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FS: BAST Original, KAWS, Beejoir, Stinkfish +, by maadbeats on Feb 19, 2012 18:11:16 GMT 1, gotta say i'm a little shocked by all this. I have never had a problem with people buying and selling/filpping or whatever you want to call it. if art didn't carry some sort of monetary value these forums, galleries and most collectors would be obsolete. its not like the original buyer promised nor signed anything preventing him/her from selling/trading or whatever. Not that he/she wouldn't have the right to do whatever they hell they pleased with something they purchased. This is all part of collecting. You get in the game small and have huge aspirations to a bigger, better and more valuable pieces. If I didn't sell or collect certain pieces I wouldn't have the collection I have today. And yes I still want more originals that are better and more valuable. I am always trying to lock down the collection I always wanted so I can enjoy it and share with friends and family in our home.
Everyone on here and every other forum is in it to win it. You have to look out for yourself to get to a point where you are 100% happy with the current collection you own. Which again may change over time.
What really bugs me is why is a gallery getting involved with a private sale between an artist and his client. In no way were they around to broker the deal so why get involved?? Now if the artist doesn't want to sell to this original collector anymore thats there business. Non of ours
love long and prosperous. BEATS OUT
gotta say i'm a little shocked by all this. I have never had a problem with people buying and selling/filpping or whatever you want to call it. if art didn't carry some sort of monetary value these forums, galleries and most collectors would be obsolete. its not like the original buyer promised nor signed anything preventing him/her from selling/trading or whatever. Not that he/she wouldn't have the right to do whatever they hell they pleased with something they purchased. This is all part of collecting. You get in the game small and have huge aspirations to a bigger, better and more valuable pieces. If I didn't sell or collect certain pieces I wouldn't have the collection I have today. And yes I still want more originals that are better and more valuable. I am always trying to lock down the collection I always wanted so I can enjoy it and share with friends and family in our home.
Everyone on here and every other forum is in it to win it. You have to look out for yourself to get to a point where you are 100% happy with the current collection you own. Which again may change over time.
What really bugs me is why is a gallery getting involved with a private sale between an artist and his client. In no way were they around to broker the deal so why get involved?? Now if the artist doesn't want to sell to this original collector anymore thats there business. Non of ours
love long and prosperous. BEATS OUT
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Wearology
Junior Member
Staff at FatFreeArt
๐จ๏ธ 3,596
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April 2008
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FS: BAST Original, KAWS, Beejoir, Stinkfish +, by Wearology on Feb 19, 2012 18:51:13 GMT 1, Let's look at this like it is a good old fashioned weed deal.
Bast is the supplier
Outsiders is the dealer
Harveyn is the buyer
The dealer (Outsiders) is upset that the buyer (Harveyn) went straight to the supplier (Bast) and paid less than the dealer's usual street price and the dealer didn't get his already established cut.
Let's look at this like it is a good old fashioned weed deal.
Bast is the supplier
Outsiders is the dealer
Harveyn is the buyer
The dealer (Outsiders) is upset that the buyer (Harveyn) went straight to the supplier (Bast) and paid less than the dealer's usual street price and the dealer didn't get his already established cut.
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FS: BAST Original, KAWS, Beejoir, Stinkfish +, by manty on Feb 19, 2012 19:02:49 GMT 1, Let's look at this like it is a good old fashioned weed deal. Bast is the supplier Outsiders is the dealer Harveyn is the buyer The dealer (Outsiders) is upset that the buyer (Harveyn) went straight to the supplier (Bast) and paid less than the dealer's usual street price and the dealer didn't get his already established cut.
no no no
Harveyn didn't buy this from the supplier, he traded it with another smoker for something else, and the other smoker had made the margin from his purchase from the supplier, so the smoker had taken the middle mans place, and now the middleman is pissed that there is some action happening in their manor that they are missing out on
i think? ;D
Let's look at this like it is a good old fashioned weed deal. Bast is the supplier Outsiders is the dealer Harveyn is the buyer The dealer (Outsiders) is upset that the buyer (Harveyn) went straight to the supplier (Bast) and paid less than the dealer's usual street price and the dealer didn't get his already established cut. no no no Harveyn didn't buy this from the supplier, he traded it with another smoker for something else, and the other smoker had made the margin from his purchase from the supplier, so the smoker had taken the middle mans place, and now the middleman is pissed that there is some action happening in their manor that they are missing out on i think? ;D |
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Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
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FS: BAST Original, KAWS, Beejoir, Stinkfish +, by Deleted on Feb 19, 2012 19:13:43 GMT 1, I think you got it all wrong Wearology
Harveyn didnt go straight to Bast in this instance. As far as I can make out, Outsiders isnt upset that Harveyn is selling a piece, or that Bast sells works direct, its because this piece, by an artist that they represent, has changed hands 3 times in the space of 6 months. Deputydawg made that point earlier, but it keeps getting lost in the thread.
I suspect the consequences of such actions have yet to unfold. I can envisage several scenario's unfolding, now that the artist is aware of what has happened.
1. Bast doesnt give a s**t and its carry on as usual
2. Bast decides, enough is enough, and wont sell works direct any longer - and that any future works will be released via his gallerist
3. Bast hikes up his prices to true market value.
No doubt all will be revealed in due course
I think you got it all wrong Wearology
Harveyn didnt go straight to Bast in this instance. As far as I can make out, Outsiders isnt upset that Harveyn is selling a piece, or that Bast sells works direct, its because this piece, by an artist that they represent, has changed hands 3 times in the space of 6 months. Deputydawg made that point earlier, but it keeps getting lost in the thread.
I suspect the consequences of such actions have yet to unfold. I can envisage several scenario's unfolding, now that the artist is aware of what has happened.
1. Bast doesnt give a s**t and its carry on as usual
2. Bast decides, enough is enough, and wont sell works direct any longer - and that any future works will be released via his gallerist
3. Bast hikes up his prices to true market value.
No doubt all will be revealed in due course
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Wearology
Junior Member
Staff at FatFreeArt
๐จ๏ธ 3,596
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April 2008
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FS: BAST Original, KAWS, Beejoir, Stinkfish +, by Wearology on Feb 19, 2012 20:01:57 GMT 1, I now need to update my list of people that told me I am wrong today.
1. Wife
2. Child One
3. Child Two
4. Pet Dog
5. Joevalentino
I now need to update my list of people that told me I am wrong today.
1. Wife
2. Child One
3. Child Two
4. Pet Dog
5. Joevalentino
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cra66
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 174
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July 2011
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FS: BAST Original, KAWS, Beejoir, Stinkfish +, by cra66 on Feb 19, 2012 20:42:38 GMT 1, Check out the book "Beyond the Street" by Patrick Nguyen & Stuart Mackenzie page 120. In the interview, Bast basically doesn't really have an issue with flipping.
For the record, I don't flip! 
Check out the book "Beyond the Street" by Patrick Nguyen & Stuart Mackenzie page 120. In the interview, Bast basically doesn't really have an issue with flipping. For the record, I don't flip! |
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Harveyn
Full Member
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July 2007
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FS: BAST Original, KAWS, Beejoir, Stinkfish +, by Harveyn on Feb 19, 2012 21:00:45 GMT 1, Can I just make one point on this matter.
If the concern was about the fact that this piece was bought from source and being sold for triple the price then why were these details put in the public domain by the gallery.
Until these details were posted as far as anyone on here (except those who enquired) was concerned this piece could have been 10 years old, bought from a gallery and sold only twice.
Of course I was not the original owner as implied and I was selling it for under the value of the piece I traded never mind triple the price.
As I have said it is not ideal but by putting these details on the forum the situation has only been made worse.
Having spoken with BAST's people they agree that whilst its not ideal its also part of the whole art thing. I guess we are appearing to loose more sleep over this than them.
Can I just make one point on this matter.
If the concern was about the fact that this piece was bought from source and being sold for triple the price then why were these details put in the public domain by the gallery.
Until these details were posted as far as anyone on here (except those who enquired) was concerned this piece could have been 10 years old, bought from a gallery and sold only twice.
Of course I was not the original owner as implied and I was selling it for under the value of the piece I traded never mind triple the price.
As I have said it is not ideal but by putting these details on the forum the situation has only been made worse.
Having spoken with BAST's people they agree that whilst its not ideal its also part of the whole art thing. I guess we are appearing to loose more sleep over this than them.
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