spirit
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FS: Banksy print for sale - at cost , by spirit on Oct 8, 2014 18:53:51 GMT 1, What i do for charity is of no concern to you, nor do i have to prove anything to anyone - if you had guessed correctly, you would have seen if it was real or not. Was anyone hurt? Did any puppies die as a consequence of this thread? I stand corrected this forum gets more moronic by the hour
For someone who claims to try and make the forum a better place, you seem to spend a lot of time insulting it.
What i do for charity is of no concern to you, nor do i have to prove anything to anyone - if you had guessed correctly, you would have seen if it was real or not. Was anyone hurt? Did any puppies die as a consequence of this thread? I stand corrected this forum gets more moronic by the hour For someone who claims to try and make the forum a better place, you seem to spend a lot of time insulting it.
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spirit
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Isis
Oct 8, 2014 14:46:30 GMT 1
Isis, by spirit on Oct 8, 2014 14:46:30 GMT 1, DAESH is the (derogatory) arabic acronym for the group. You speak arabic do you? ISIS is the English translation of it. I know very well what DAESH means and its origin. And yes, I think it is better to use the derogatory arabic acronym for the group than ISIS for many many reasons, some already explained in lenght by the French government. Do you speak French ? No I don't speak arabic, but does it make a difference, tell me I am really curious here ?? Does it make a different I speak arabic, please elaborate ? Because to me it doesn't... and such remark shows that you are as prompt as ISIS to attack people. I leave you in peace now, I have a rack sale thread to organise and Allฤhu Akbar
I speak a little French, not a lot. But then I don't go around telling people they should use the French words for things instead of the English.
It was you who tried to tell people their terminology was wrong, not me."Daesh, not ISIS, DAESH, not ISIS". Given that ISIS is the most commonly accepted and used English version of the name, I legitimately enquired why you felt that was wrong and that the arabic acronym should be used instead. I asked if you spoke arabic which is a reasonable and logical question given your stance that arabic names should be used.
As yet you have not given any explanation of why you think we should all be using DAESH instead of ISIS other than some vague assertion that the reasons have been explained in french by the french government...
You managed to twist my legitimate question into a personal attack and then compared me to ISIS. Funny.
I'm afraid with that absurd comparison you just lost all and any credibility you had.
Right - off to get some fresh heads to stick on the railings outside my house...
DAESH is the (derogatory) arabic acronym for the group. You speak arabic do you? ISIS is the English translation of it. I know very well what DAESH means and its origin. And yes, I think it is better to use the derogatory arabic acronym for the group than ISIS for many many reasons, some already explained in lenght by the French government. Do you speak French ? No I don't speak arabic, but does it make a difference, tell me I am really curious here ?? Does it make a different I speak arabic, please elaborate ? Because to me it doesn't... and such remark shows that you are as prompt as ISIS to attack people. I leave you in peace now, I have a rack sale thread to organise and Allฤhu Akbar I speak a little French, not a lot. But then I don't go around telling people they should use the French words for things instead of the English. It was you who tried to tell people their terminology was wrong, not me."Daesh, not ISIS, DAESH, not ISIS". Given that ISIS is the most commonly accepted and used English version of the name, I legitimately enquired why you felt that was wrong and that the arabic acronym should be used instead. I asked if you spoke arabic which is a reasonable and logical question given your stance that arabic names should be used. As yet you have not given any explanation of why you think we should all be using DAESH instead of ISIS other than some vague assertion that the reasons have been explained in french by the french government... You managed to twist my legitimate question into a personal attack and then compared me to ISIS. Funny. I'm afraid with that absurd comparison you just lost all and any credibility you had. Right - off to get some fresh heads to stick on the railings outside my house...
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spirit
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Isis
Oct 8, 2014 14:05:36 GMT 1
Isis, by spirit on Oct 8, 2014 14:05:36 GMT 1, Yes bomb the emplacements around the town gives immediate relief. But in winning the battle you are loosing the war. Because your actions will be interpreted as anti Arab, and that is going to be good recruitment for ISIS or the like, so every one you kill will be replaced by many others. Because of actions in the past there is no trust without building up trust anything you do will be interpreted as evil, and as such builds the forces against you.
So you'd prefer just leaving the Kurds to be raped and slaughtered? Really - what would you do?
And ISIS is far from a purely Arabic group - so not sure how fighting it can be considered as anti-arab per se.
Yes bomb the emplacements around the town gives immediate relief. But in winning the battle you are loosing the war. Because your actions will be interpreted as anti Arab, and that is going to be good recruitment for ISIS or the like, so every one you kill will be replaced by many others. Because of actions in the past there is no trust without building up trust anything you do will be interpreted as evil, and as such builds the forces against you. So you'd prefer just leaving the Kurds to be raped and slaughtered? Really - what would you do? And ISIS is far from a purely Arabic group - so not sure how fighting it can be considered as anti-arab per se.
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spirit
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Isis
Oct 8, 2014 14:04:21 GMT 1
Isis, by spirit on Oct 8, 2014 14:04:21 GMT 1, This ISIS thread is dashing my spirit, people dash one stone against another, they dash off emotive notes, they dash wine with water... DAESH not ISIS... I repeat DAESH not ISIS.
DAESH is the (derogatory) arabic acronym for the group.
You speak arabic do you?
ISIS is the English translation of it.
This ISIS thread is dashing my spirit, people dash one stone against another, they dash off emotive notes, they dash wine with water... DAESH not ISIS... I repeat DAESH not ISIS. DAESH is the (derogatory) arabic acronym for the group. You speak arabic do you? ISIS is the English translation of it.
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spirit
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Isis
Oct 8, 2014 12:53:09 GMT 1
Isis, by spirit on Oct 8, 2014 12:53:09 GMT 1, The problem for me is that we simply do not have any tools that could help, because with only bombs they will be hitting not just ISIS but the people we are supposed to be there to help. Oh we do have tools that can help. Ask any Kurd in Kobane right now what their favourite tool is and they'll tell you it's the B1 Bomber.
They have been praying for weeks for one of these tools to turn up. And now it's there. Which means quite a few Kurdish women will get to live today as opposed to being raped and beheaded - or having to blow themselves up to avoid that fate.
If you want to follow what's happening in Kobane right now, check this guys twitter:
twitter.com/cahitstorm/with_replies
The problem for me is that we simply do not have any tools that could help, because with only bombs they will be hitting not just ISIS but the people we are supposed to be there to help. Oh we do have tools that can help. Ask any Kurd in Kobane right now what their favourite tool is and they'll tell you it's the B1 Bomber. They have been praying for weeks for one of these tools to turn up. And now it's there. Which means quite a few Kurdish women will get to live today as opposed to being raped and beheaded - or having to blow themselves up to avoid that fate. If you want to follow what's happening in Kobane right now, check this guys twitter: twitter.com/cahitstorm/with_replies
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spirit
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Isis
Oct 8, 2014 12:47:18 GMT 1
Isis, by spirit on Oct 8, 2014 12:47:18 GMT 1, I agree. Frankly they aren't discussions at all - definitely not constructive - just shouting for attention and name calling. Is there any way to delete or hide threads? I am familiar with how to ignore members. Thank you for your expert opinion expressed here. If you have anything else to add, please consider saying it in this political forum - www.politicsforum.org Lot of people, you will definitely get attention and responses. Kill ISIS, kill the thread !! I really don't get these kill/delete the thread arguments.
No one is forcing you to read it. If you don't like it, just ignore it. Move along. Simple.
What on earth makes you think you have the right to try and stop others discussing things as they see fit?
I agree. Frankly they aren't discussions at all - definitely not constructive - just shouting for attention and name calling. Is there any way to delete or hide threads? I am familiar with how to ignore members. Thank you for your expert opinion expressed here. If you have anything else to add, please consider saying it in this political forum - www.politicsforum.org Lot of people, you will definitely get attention and responses. Kill ISIS, kill the thread !! I really don't get these kill/delete the thread arguments. No one is forcing you to read it. If you don't like it, just ignore it. Move along. Simple. What on earth makes you think you have the right to try and stop others discussing things as they see fit?
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spirit
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Isis
Oct 8, 2014 1:22:37 GMT 1
Isis, by spirit on Oct 8, 2014 1:22:37 GMT 1, I don't think anyone's disputing the evil on display? But rather the way to tackle this moving forward in a manner that may actually work ...
There are basically 2 potential solutions with situations like this: Fight or Talk.
(If you have any other potential solutions I'm all ears)
The problem in this particular situation with the talking option is that any negotiator you send will probably be returned to you in two pieces.
ISIS kills all infidels. Full stop. And they have a VERY broad definition of infidel which as well as everyone in the west, also includes a lot of other muslims. The kurds they are fighting now are, like them, mostly Sunni muslims. But they are secular. Therefore apostate. Therefore in need of their heads being separated from their bodies.
The talking solution requires there to be the possibility of finding some common ground. Give and take. A solution that both sides can find mutually acceptable. I honestly don't think there is one that involves infidels still breathing. This is because Islamic extremists cannot deviate in any way whatsoever from their interpretation of the Qur'an. It is the absolute word of God. Either you see things 100% their way, or they kill you. End of.
I don't think anyone's disputing the evil on display? But rather the way to tackle this moving forward in a manner that may actually work ... There are basically 2 potential solutions with situations like this: Fight or Talk. (If you have any other potential solutions I'm all ears) The problem in this particular situation with the talking option is that any negotiator you send will probably be returned to you in two pieces. ISIS kills all infidels. Full stop. And they have a VERY broad definition of infidel which as well as everyone in the west, also includes a lot of other muslims. The kurds they are fighting now are, like them, mostly Sunni muslims. But they are secular. Therefore apostate. Therefore in need of their heads being separated from their bodies. The talking solution requires there to be the possibility of finding some common ground. Give and take. A solution that both sides can find mutually acceptable. I honestly don't think there is one that involves infidels still breathing. This is because Islamic extremists cannot deviate in any way whatsoever from their interpretation of the Qur'an. It is the absolute word of God. Either you see things 100% their way, or they kill you. End of.
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spirit
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Isis
Oct 8, 2014 1:00:31 GMT 1
Isis, by spirit on Oct 8, 2014 1:00:31 GMT 1, Is ISIS a real threat to us ? Its hard to say, it harder to work through the bluster in the media.It takea a bit of work to discover who they are and how they relate to the Syria situation
If you've got the stomach for it watch Clashing of the swords IV (the only one with an English translation I think) and Flames of War. Will tell you a lot about who they are and what they want.
Is ISIS a real threat to us ? Its hard to say, it harder to work through the bluster in the media.It takea a bit of work to discover who they are and how they relate to the Syria situation If you've got the stomach for it watch Clashing of the swords IV (the only one with an English translation I think) and Flames of War. Will tell you a lot about who they are and what they want.
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spirit
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Isis
Oct 8, 2014 0:56:11 GMT 1
Isis, by spirit on Oct 8, 2014 0:56:11 GMT 1, Correct me if I'm wrong but this current situation has developed from our previous interventions surely? Doesn't that clear link at least basically suggest our policies have not worked? (I'm also not sure why this is an either/or situation)
Completely agree. It's a mess of our own making. We should have left Iraq alone. We should have left Libya alone. Afghanistan...harder to say.
Nevertheless, we are where we are.
Correct me if I'm wrong but this current situation has developed from our previous interventions surely? Doesn't that clear link at least basically suggest our policies have not worked? (I'm also not sure why this is an either/or situation) Completely agree. It's a mess of our own making. We should have left Iraq alone. We should have left Libya alone. Afghanistan...harder to say. Nevertheless, we are where we are.
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spirit
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Isis
Oct 7, 2014 23:29:09 GMT 1
Isis, by spirit on Oct 7, 2014 23:29:09 GMT 1, One would hope that they do make the correct beaurocratic moves. Efforts to encourage an inclusive government in Baghdad suggest they understand that this is necessary if peace is eventually to come there.
The situation we are facing now with ISIS is completely different to the earlier wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya etc. It's not about US hegemony, resources or the war economy. It's not about "intervention" and "invented" enemies. This is the real deal. A clashing of two completely incompatible global cultures, both of whom, in different ways, want to control the planet.
One would hope that they do make the correct beaurocratic moves. Efforts to encourage an inclusive government in Baghdad suggest they understand that this is necessary if peace is eventually to come there.
The situation we are facing now with ISIS is completely different to the earlier wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya etc. It's not about US hegemony, resources or the war economy. It's not about "intervention" and "invented" enemies. This is the real deal. A clashing of two completely incompatible global cultures, both of whom, in different ways, want to control the planet.
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spirit
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Isis
Oct 7, 2014 22:07:55 GMT 1
Isis, by spirit on Oct 7, 2014 22:07:55 GMT 1, After offering only half-hearted support at best for the Kurds fighting for their lives in Kobane over last 3 weeks, US finally pulled its finger out today and sent in the B1. Better late than never. Thanks Uncle Sam and well done.
ISIS = Is Something In Sky?
After offering only half-hearted support at best for the Kurds fighting for their lives in Kobane over last 3 weeks, US finally pulled its finger out today and sent in the B1. Better late than never. Thanks Uncle Sam and well done.
ISIS = Is Something In Sky?
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spirit
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Bast 'Carnegie Yellow' *BARGAIN FOR SOMEONE*, by spirit on Oct 7, 2014 10:08:38 GMT 1, Good piece. Good price. Good Luck.
Good piece. Good price. Good Luck.
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spirit
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Isis
Oct 7, 2014 0:14:40 GMT 1
Isis, by spirit on Oct 7, 2014 0:14:40 GMT 1, jonb
I hadn't seen that Cameron speech but it doesn't bother me at all.
The "prophecies of a global war of religion pitting Muslims against the rest of the world" does not relate to comments like mine. It refers to Islamic prophecies which state exactly that.
See:
reut.rs/WOlCSj
Oddly enough I first came across these prophecies when I met some JKLF (Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front) and Hizbul Mujahideen militants in Kasmir in 1994. Back in the good old days when as a UK citizen you could hang out with some Kashmiri Jihadi's without getting your head lopped off... (that all changed in 1995).
jonbI hadn't seen that Cameron speech but it doesn't bother me at all. The "prophecies of a global war of religion pitting Muslims against the rest of the world" does not relate to comments like mine. It refers to Islamic prophecies which state exactly that. See: reut.rs/WOlCSjOddly enough I first came across these prophecies when I met some JKLF (Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front) and Hizbul Mujahideen militants in Kasmir in 1994. Back in the good old days when as a UK citizen you could hang out with some Kashmiri Jihadi's without getting your head lopped off... (that all changed in 1995).
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spirit
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Isis
Oct 6, 2014 23:50:03 GMT 1
Isis, by spirit on Oct 6, 2014 23:50:03 GMT 1, If you are advocating war the first question is; Is the west powerful enough on its own to win when groups can move from territory to another.
Yes - I think there is no question that the west is powerful enough militarily and there is nowhere the arm of the US cannot reach. And we are not on our own.
I'd like to make the distinction between policing the world, taking and holding territory, and fighting people who openly declare themselves to be our enemies.
Trying to police the world generally does not work. I believe we should mind our own business where we are not directly threatened.
Taking and holding large amounts of territory like we tried to do in Afghanistan doesn't work either. We get into a war of attrition and losses that the public won't stand for. We need intelligence led operations where we can get in, destroy targets and get out again. This means airstrikes, drones and special quick reaction/special forces.
To a certain extent, locally, yes. That's the nature of the region. But the main allies as ever are US, Canada, Australia and most of Europe.
China and Russia have their own problems with Islamic extremism. Russia has been very quiet about our airstrikes in Syria (considering Syria is is close ally). And China has not said a word. I think in the long term China and Russia will become allies to some extent in this war.
Put simply, we fight those that pose a credible threat against us whoever and wherever they are. If they don't threaten us, leave them be. If they do, smash them.
Our interests and Iran's are currently coming more into alignment. I think this is probably a good thing - after decades of bad relations a thaw with Iran is overdue. By ousting Saddam and putting a puppet sectarian Shia government in control of Iraq we did more to bolster Iran's regional power than fighting ISIS ever will.
Thank goodness we didn't. Our recent efforts at regime change in Libya and Iraq have backfired big time. We have ousted secular dictators who were no danger to us - even though they were brutal to their own people - and the power vacuums we left behind have been filled by radical Islamists who mean us harm. We have ended up with something far worse than what we started with.
If you are advocating war the first question is; Is the west powerful enough on its own to win when groups can move from territory to another. Yes - I think there is no question that the west is powerful enough militarily and there is nowhere the arm of the US cannot reach. And we are not on our own. I'd like to make the distinction between policing the world, taking and holding territory, and fighting people who openly declare themselves to be our enemies. Trying to police the world generally does not work. I believe we should mind our own business where we are not directly threatened. Taking and holding large amounts of territory like we tried to do in Afghanistan doesn't work either. We get into a war of attrition and losses that the public won't stand for. We need intelligence led operations where we can get in, destroy targets and get out again. This means airstrikes, drones and special quick reaction/special forces. To a certain extent, locally, yes. That's the nature of the region. But the main allies as ever are US, Canada, Australia and most of Europe. China and Russia have their own problems with Islamic extremism. Russia has been very quiet about our airstrikes in Syria (considering Syria is is close ally). And China has not said a word. I think in the long term China and Russia will become allies to some extent in this war. Put simply, we fight those that pose a credible threat against us whoever and wherever they are. If they don't threaten us, leave them be. If they do, smash them. Our interests and Iran's are currently coming more into alignment. I think this is probably a good thing - after decades of bad relations a thaw with Iran is overdue. By ousting Saddam and putting a puppet sectarian Shia government in control of Iraq we did more to bolster Iran's regional power than fighting ISIS ever will. Thank goodness we didn't. Our recent efforts at regime change in Libya and Iraq have backfired big time. We have ousted secular dictators who were no danger to us - even though they were brutal to their own people - and the power vacuums we left behind have been filled by radical Islamists who mean us harm. We have ended up with something far worse than what we started with.
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spirit
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Isis
Oct 6, 2014 22:50:55 GMT 1
Isis, by spirit on Oct 6, 2014 22:50:55 GMT 1, What a clusterfcuk this latest offensive is going to become Bombs heal complex situations always Someone will have to remind me who are the good guys and who are the bad, because it's getting fcuking blurry for clarity I am not saying isis are the good guys, They clearly are not, the problem comes with the Wests policy, those we decide to fight alongside and the evil we create with the poor decisions we make ... Why is one evil dictatorship suddenly acceptable under the right conditions? Why is one extreme militia suddenly our allie to be armed ? Why is violence always the answer?
FWIW I think some people misunderstood your original post. Personally I saw nothing wrong with it at all and I'm a little surprised there wasn't a thread running about ISIS already given its doubtless the biggest cultural/political/military issue of the day.
Roll on the Mickey Mouse AK47 Grenade prints!
What a clusterfcuk this latest offensive is going to become Bombs heal complex situations always Someone will have to remind me who are the good guys and who are the bad, because it's getting fcuking blurry for clarity I am not saying isis are the good guys, They clearly are not, the problem comes with the Wests policy, those we decide to fight alongside and the evil we create with the poor decisions we make ... Why is one evil dictatorship suddenly acceptable under the right conditions? Why is one extreme militia suddenly our allie to be armed ? Why is violence always the answer? FWIW I think some people misunderstood your original post. Personally I saw nothing wrong with it at all and I'm a little surprised there wasn't a thread running about ISIS already given its doubtless the biggest cultural/political/military issue of the day. Roll on the Mickey Mouse AK47 Grenade prints!
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spirit
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Isis
Oct 6, 2014 22:10:08 GMT 1
Isis, by spirit on Oct 6, 2014 22:10:08 GMT 1, For me those are not the questions to start with that is to big and to far off, Also in the use of bombing it is not just about what is happening in the middle east, but rather our societies involvement in it. So the first question is my society is bombing and as an Englishman that is being done in my name. I do not believe in that action because my knowledge of history tells me it has never produced the results that it is supposed to produce. Now to say I am against the bombing means I can have the accusation rightly thrown at me of 'Well what would you do?' To answer that I have to argue that action of itself, is not a solution, you do not play chess by just moving bits around a board, you have an objective. I would also argue that bombing is what ISIS desire because it validates their position that all things western are evil, they do not mind some of their number being killed because the collateral damage brings them far more volunteers than their losses. Just as on the chess board I am more than happy to sacrifice a pawn if it means I can then take your queen. So we see why they use beheadings because it provokes a response and a response they want. Also they can then point to the fact that somewhere about a million Iraqis have died because of/since the Bush Blair invasion and very little in the western media has been said about it, but one or two westerners beheaded and the media goes to town, as such they can say with some evidence look the west don't give a monkeys about you 3/4 of them are more important than a million of us. Then because we have enabled them to show us as enemies they are then able to point to anybody that is against them and say well that's just a puppet of the evil west support them and you will continued to be bombed. Then again suppose in the use of force it was managed to rip ISIS apart, all that would happen is there would be a new banner raised to fight the western imperialism, as has been the experience of western intervention for a long time and each time just that bit more extreme. I would say we have done so much damage now even the role of global policeman is beyond anything we can do because our mere presence is now seen by so many as a provocation. If the west desires to have influence again which is not just at the point of a gun, it has to stand back, if we want to show the world there is an alternative to tyranny we have to put our own house back in order. This will be far harder than dropping bombs, because forces like ISIS would loose creditability if we did and as such would increase their provocation to get us back fighting, and it will be very hard for any government to explain to their voters why the government they voted for is so impotent. I say because of this first question is: Can we stop digging? Or "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."
You make some very good points.
However, I do not believe that stepping back and putting our own house in order is the solution here.
If you can bear to watch some of ISIS's own propaganda/recruitment videos (Clashing of the Swords/Flames of War etc) you will hear in their own words that they intend nothing less than the takeover of the entire planet. One big Islamic World Ummah. This is their mission. They recognise no borders. And like terminator - they will not stop until they either succeed or are killed. This is what we are dealing with.
Every day we sit back and do nothing, they get stronger. As one American politician whose name currently escapes me said - Fighting them is inevitable - it is a case of when, not if - and therefore the sooner the better.
I did not support the first or second Iraq wars. They were fought for very questionable reasons. And now most people, even those who supported them at the time, consider them to have been a mistake. However while it was wrong to take action then, I strongly believe that it would be wrong not to take action now. And we must not let our fears of making another mistake prevent us from doing so.
Imo the world has not faced an enemy of such unquestionable evil since the Nazis. In fact I'd say ISIS has the potential over time to be considerably worse - they are certainly more brutal.
Difficult as it is to say, I think the endgame here is going to have to be something very big. In WW2 the Americans were fighting the Japanese who were similarly fanatical - they could not conceive losing and they would rather die than surrender. The answer then? Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Did the survivors/relatives of the dead of those cities swear endless revenge and fight the US for the next century? No - they said sod that for a game of soldiers, we need to fundamentally change our culture to survive - and thats what they did.
Sometimes bombs do work...
I'm not suggesting we nuke the Middle East... but something needs to happen so that the muslim world starts policing radicalisation itself. Where radicalisation becomes completely unacceptable within Islam as a whole. The problem is that right now way too many muslims privately sympathise with many of the aims of groups like ISIS, even if they do not support with the way they are going about it. To many, the ends can justify the means. That needs to change.
To cut a long story short, I believe the solution will eventually come from the muslim world, not the west. But the west will probably need to provide the catalyst. And it won't be pleasant.
For me those are not the questions to start with that is to big and to far off, Also in the use of bombing it is not just about what is happening in the middle east, but rather our societies involvement in it. So the first question is my society is bombing and as an Englishman that is being done in my name. I do not believe in that action because my knowledge of history tells me it has never produced the results that it is supposed to produce. Now to say I am against the bombing means I can have the accusation rightly thrown at me of 'Well what would you do?' To answer that I have to argue that action of itself, is not a solution, you do not play chess by just moving bits around a board, you have an objective. I would also argue that bombing is what ISIS desire because it validates their position that all things western are evil, they do not mind some of their number being killed because the collateral damage brings them far more volunteers than their losses. Just as on the chess board I am more than happy to sacrifice a pawn if it means I can then take your queen. So we see why they use beheadings because it provokes a response and a response they want. Also they can then point to the fact that somewhere about a million Iraqis have died because of/since the Bush Blair invasion and very little in the western media has been said about it, but one or two westerners beheaded and the media goes to town, as such they can say with some evidence look the west don't give a monkeys about you 3/4 of them are more important than a million of us. Then because we have enabled them to show us as enemies they are then able to point to anybody that is against them and say well that's just a puppet of the evil west support them and you will continued to be bombed. Then again suppose in the use of force it was managed to rip ISIS apart, all that would happen is there would be a new banner raised to fight the western imperialism, as has been the experience of western intervention for a long time and each time just that bit more extreme. I would say we have done so much damage now even the role of global policeman is beyond anything we can do because our mere presence is now seen by so many as a provocation. If the west desires to have influence again which is not just at the point of a gun, it has to stand back, if we want to show the world there is an alternative to tyranny we have to put our own house back in order. This will be far harder than dropping bombs, because forces like ISIS would loose creditability if we did and as such would increase their provocation to get us back fighting, and it will be very hard for any government to explain to their voters why the government they voted for is so impotent. I say because of this first question is: Can we stop digging? Or "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." You make some very good points. However, I do not believe that stepping back and putting our own house in order is the solution here. If you can bear to watch some of ISIS's own propaganda/recruitment videos (Clashing of the Swords/Flames of War etc) you will hear in their own words that they intend nothing less than the takeover of the entire planet. One big Islamic World Ummah. This is their mission. They recognise no borders. And like terminator - they will not stop until they either succeed or are killed. This is what we are dealing with. Every day we sit back and do nothing, they get stronger. As one American politician whose name currently escapes me said - Fighting them is inevitable - it is a case of when, not if - and therefore the sooner the better. I did not support the first or second Iraq wars. They were fought for very questionable reasons. And now most people, even those who supported them at the time, consider them to have been a mistake. However while it was wrong to take action then, I strongly believe that it would be wrong not to take action now. And we must not let our fears of making another mistake prevent us from doing so. Imo the world has not faced an enemy of such unquestionable evil since the Nazis. In fact I'd say ISIS has the potential over time to be considerably worse - they are certainly more brutal. Difficult as it is to say, I think the endgame here is going to have to be something very big. In WW2 the Americans were fighting the Japanese who were similarly fanatical - they could not conceive losing and they would rather die than surrender. The answer then? Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Did the survivors/relatives of the dead of those cities swear endless revenge and fight the US for the next century? No - they said sod that for a game of soldiers, we need to fundamentally change our culture to survive - and thats what they did. Sometimes bombs do work... I'm not suggesting we nuke the Middle East... but something needs to happen so that the muslim world starts policing radicalisation itself. Where radicalisation becomes completely unacceptable within Islam as a whole. The problem is that right now way too many muslims privately sympathise with many of the aims of groups like ISIS, even if they do not support with the way they are going about it. To many, the ends can justify the means. That needs to change. To cut a long story short, I believe the solution will eventually come from the muslim world, not the west. But the west will probably need to provide the catalyst. And it won't be pleasant.
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spirit
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Isis
Oct 6, 2014 21:26:34 GMT 1
Isis, by spirit on Oct 6, 2014 21:26:34 GMT 1, 1 - How do you fight, or re-educate a group of people who truly believe that death is their salvation, and that this is an absolute fact? (Religious Radicals, I say this because this is not a belief held singularly to Islam... think the rapture...) 2 - How do you make up for decades of economic enslavement, marginalization, and murder? (Not exclusive to the middle east, but all nations across the world except for those small enough and lucky enough to be able to provide a high standard of living for all of it's people) 3 - Once the above two have been addressed, how do you setup a GLOBAL society in which not all people are necessarily equal, but at least have the ability to achieve as much as any other member of society? To me these are the three starting questions which inevitably will lead to sub discussions and so on which would address the entirety of this matter.
1. You can't re-educate that kind of twisted belief. Therefore only answer is to kill them if they threaten you. You do need to try to stop the next generation thinking like that.
2. You can't really. However poverty does not necessarily breed violence.
3. Some people don't want a global society and many of those that do, do not have altruistic reasons for wanting one.
My view is that these questions (apart from 1) are not really central to the issue.
1 - How do you fight, or re-educate a group of people who truly believe that death is their salvation, and that this is an absolute fact? (Religious Radicals, I say this because this is not a belief held singularly to Islam... think the rapture...) 2 - How do you make up for decades of economic enslavement, marginalization, and murder? (Not exclusive to the middle east, but all nations across the world except for those small enough and lucky enough to be able to provide a high standard of living for all of it's people) 3 - Once the above two have been addressed, how do you setup a GLOBAL society in which not all people are necessarily equal, but at least have the ability to achieve as much as any other member of society? To me these are the three starting questions which inevitably will lead to sub discussions and so on which would address the entirety of this matter. 1. You can't re-educate that kind of twisted belief. Therefore only answer is to kill them if they threaten you. You do need to try to stop the next generation thinking like that. 2. You can't really. However poverty does not necessarily breed violence. 3. Some people don't want a global society and many of those that do, do not have altruistic reasons for wanting one. My view is that these questions (apart from 1) are not really central to the issue.
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spirit
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FS: Banksy print for sale - at cost , by spirit on Oct 5, 2014 15:43:44 GMT 1, Silver flags No. 174
Silver flags No. 174
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spirit
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Interesting Times..., by spirit on Oct 3, 2014 12:48:54 GMT 1, I can assure you that back when you joined the forum in 2010, people were saying exactly the same thing. That comes across as a little snippy, Spirit -- but I apologise if I've misinterpreted. The point made no reference to when I joined, only what the forum is or might be now compared to what it was or might have been previously. I don't purport to be a founder member but I've enjoyed looking back over older forum posts including many from before I was a member and I feel I'm able to comment as such. If you feel it's always been this way then that's a fair point. Apologies - certainly didn't mean to be snippy - simply implying that its always been this way imo. People were saying the same thing when I joined in 2007 and I'm certainly not a founder member either. Back when I joined there was always a lot of hoohaa about the good members who were here for the artistic discussion leaving because it was turning into a flippers forum... 7 years ago...
People hark back to the idealised "golden years" of how it used to be and I'm not really sure they ever existed. Perhaps people didn't used to be quite so overt about their financial interest but it was probably always there in the background.
Eschiff hit the nail on the head when he pointed out that this forum started on ebay... which says everything really.
There was an alternate forum called Wallkandy that started up to offer an alternative venue for those more interested in true artistic discussion (and for those banned from here). It didn't last.... which also says a lot.
Edit: Pleased to see Wallkandy is no longer considered a dirty word.
I can assure you that back when you joined the forum in 2010, people were saying exactly the same thing. That comes across as a little snippy, Spirit -- but I apologise if I've misinterpreted. The point made no reference to when I joined, only what the forum is or might be now compared to what it was or might have been previously. I don't purport to be a founder member but I've enjoyed looking back over older forum posts including many from before I was a member and I feel I'm able to comment as such. If you feel it's always been this way then that's a fair point. Apologies - certainly didn't mean to be snippy - simply implying that its always been this way imo. People were saying the same thing when I joined in 2007 and I'm certainly not a founder member either. Back when I joined there was always a lot of hoohaa about the good members who were here for the artistic discussion leaving because it was turning into a flippers forum... 7 years ago... People hark back to the idealised "golden years" of how it used to be and I'm not really sure they ever existed. Perhaps people didn't used to be quite so overt about their financial interest but it was probably always there in the background. Eschiff hit the nail on the head when he pointed out that this forum started on ebay... which says everything really. There was an alternate forum called Wallkandy that started up to offer an alternative venue for those more interested in true artistic discussion (and for those banned from here). It didn't last.... which also says a lot. Edit: Pleased to see Wallkandy is no longer considered a dirty word.
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spirit
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Interesting Times..., by spirit on Oct 3, 2014 10:53:00 GMT 1, Not sure what my point isโฆ maybe that the forum is now less place less for discussing the true heritage of the work we buy and more about shiny material gains... I can assure you that back when you joined the forum in 2010, people were saying exactly the same thing.
Not sure what my point isโฆ maybe that the forum is now less place less for discussing the true heritage of the work we buy and more about shiny material gains... I can assure you that back when you joined the forum in 2010, people were saying exactly the same thing.
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spirit
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Interesting Times..., by spirit on Oct 3, 2014 10:49:45 GMT 1, Queue here to complain forum is not as good as it used to be.
Queue here to complain forum is not as good as it used to be.
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spirit
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Banksy for sale, by spirit on Jun 1, 2014 22:04:56 GMT 1, That must be some Fridge! GLWS.
That must be some Fridge! GLWS.
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spirit
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Show everyone your latest Art Purchase?, by spirit on May 31, 2014 16:38:27 GMT 1, Not really a new acquisition, but just got these back from the framer. 3/4 inch black frame, 5/8 inch black spacer, 1.25" gap to frame, Optium acrylic. Float mounted on a piece of foam core. Those are 2 very special pieces. Can't think of anyone with more pure talent than IK right now.
The framing is beautifully done, but if I may say, I find all the black a little heavy for the lightness of the drawings. Each to their own when it comes to framing though.
Congratulations - you must be very happy with them.
Not really a new acquisition, but just got these back from the framer. 3/4 inch black frame, 5/8 inch black spacer, 1.25" gap to frame, Optium acrylic. Float mounted on a piece of foam core. Those are 2 very special pieces. Can't think of anyone with more pure talent than IK right now. The framing is beautifully done, but if I may say, I find all the black a little heavy for the lightness of the drawings. Each to their own when it comes to framing though. Congratulations - you must be very happy with them.
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spirit
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How to release a print..., by spirit on May 30, 2014 18:46:11 GMT 1, Tell everyone your doing a Banksy collaboration without actually getting anything agreed. Give very high price but tell everyone image will be a surprise.
#not
Tell everyone your doing a Banksy collaboration without actually getting anything agreed. Give very high price but tell everyone image will be a surprise.
#not
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spirit
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It's a lot like record collecting!, by spirit on May 30, 2014 18:37:42 GMT 1, Used to have a lot more records but got rid of most of them a few years ago. Just kept the ones I can't live without. Now it's mostly Spotify...
Used to have a lot more records but got rid of most of them a few years ago. Just kept the ones I can't live without. Now it's mostly Spotify...
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spirit
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Artists You Might Not Know, by spirit on May 30, 2014 14:24:15 GMT 1, Vey interesting - thanks for posting.
Vey interesting - thanks for posting.
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spirit
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Adam Neate Edition 100 3D hug, by spirit on May 30, 2014 14:19:17 GMT 1, I've never flipped a thing and quit frankly I don't even care to profit. If someone offers more than I paid they an have it. If best offer is cost they can have it. I just need a new machine to keep my chicken cold. Fair enough. Sounds like you've got an offer already.
I've never flipped a thing and quit frankly I don't even care to profit. If someone offers more than I paid they an have it. If best offer is cost they can have it. I just need a new machine to keep my chicken cold. Fair enough. Sounds like you've got an offer already.
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spirit
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Adam Neate Edition 100 3D hug, by spirit on May 30, 2014 14:14:45 GMT 1, Is this the one thats not even being shipped to you for another 12 days yet?
Is this the one thats not even being shipped to you for another 12 days yet?
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spirit
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Banksy Kate Moss Print, by spirit on May 30, 2014 14:10:34 GMT 1, why do you need to see images many men? are you buying? if so PM him... i hate people who are just nosey...this is a VIP print and should not be shown around IMO If you are interested i take all that back Bit of silly thing to say being a gallery n'all I think what you meant to say was "This is a VIP print and should probably be sold in a discrete manner"?? Elitist Urban Art VIP prints...
whatever next... :-)
why do you need to see images many men? are you buying? if so PM him... i hate people who are just nosey...this is a VIP print and should not be shown around IMO If you are interested i take all that back Bit of silly thing to say being a gallery n'all I think what you meant to say was "This is a VIP print and should probably be sold in a discrete manner"?? Elitist Urban Art VIP prints... whatever next... :-)
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spirit
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Please finish this sentence: I like urban art because...., by spirit on May 30, 2014 13:51:36 GMT 1, Thats deep AP, are you by chance sipping a sherry and listening to Mahler whilst typing?. Nah, he's sipping a Muller and listening to Cheryl.
Thats deep AP, are you by chance sipping a sherry and listening to Mahler whilst typing?. Nah, he's sipping a Muller and listening to Cheryl.
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