lee3
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Banksy Kate Moss Print, by lee3 on Apr 12, 2009 16:43:05 GMT 1, >>>20k might get you a colourway, more like 25k though. Original 1 of 50 colour your be lucky to get for 35k.<<<
ยฃ20k sounds more than fair to me for one from either edition. The last one of 50 to come to auction did not sell at ยฃ30k and that was way back in October. Since then we've seen two complete sets of the 6 color ways (edition of 20) fail to sell at ยฃ250k (October) and more recently at ยฃ100k in February. Imho, it is no longer the buyer but rather the seller who is "lucky to get" anything for their inventory in this environment. My hunch is that if you contact the dealers and submit a few absentee bids at the various auction houses and have some patience, you will get your Kate sooner than you think.
>>>20k might get you a colourway, more like 25k though. Original 1 of 50 colour your be lucky to get for 35k.<<<
ยฃ20k sounds more than fair to me for one from either edition. The last one of 50 to come to auction did not sell at ยฃ30k and that was way back in October. Since then we've seen two complete sets of the 6 color ways (edition of 20) fail to sell at ยฃ250k (October) and more recently at ยฃ100k in February. Imho, it is no longer the buyer but rather the seller who is "lucky to get" anything for their inventory in this environment. My hunch is that if you contact the dealers and submit a few absentee bids at the various auction houses and have some patience, you will get your Kate sooner than you think.
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lee3
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Your latest Art Purchase?, by lee3 on Apr 11, 2009 6:50:37 GMT 1, Wow, bravo to the compositions by Luke Cheuh and Russ Mills above.
Wow, bravo to the compositions by Luke Cheuh and Russ Mills above.
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lee3
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Andy Warhol ๐บ๐ธ Real or Fake? โข Sunday B. Morning Print, by lee3 on Apr 9, 2009 17:06:33 GMT 1, >>>Would sell some/all of these insolent puppies should a realistically priced Warhol suppe come along<<<
There have been plenty on artnet as of late and am sure that both Christie's and Sotheby's will have a few in their upcoming April print auction. They've been getting bought in at $12k US with regularity as of late. If I were a buyer, I wouldn't pay more than $8k for anything other than Tomato which gets a hefty premium but nowhere near the $30-50k it once traded for. My *guess* is Tomato would cost you around $20k these days.
>>>Would sell some/all of these insolent puppies should a realistically priced Warhol suppe come along<<<
There have been plenty on artnet as of late and am sure that both Christie's and Sotheby's will have a few in their upcoming April print auction. They've been getting bought in at $12k US with regularity as of late. If I were a buyer, I wouldn't pay more than $8k for anything other than Tomato which gets a hefty premium but nowhere near the $30-50k it once traded for. My *guess* is Tomato would cost you around $20k these days.
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lee3
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Banksy โข Andipa Gallery, by lee3 on Apr 9, 2009 16:24:37 GMT 1, I was surprised to see Are you using that chair/Nighthawk's Cafe included in this show. Unless Acoris bought that outright from Laz (which is possible) then one can speculate that perhaps the two galleries are helping one another out. Laz was offering it at ยฃ1M last year but believe they had reduced the price to ยฃ850k in December or January. As for pricing of the rest of the work, I think many here will be pleasantly surprised. I've bought Banksy's from both galleries and both are priced rather well imho given the current environment and will work with able and willing buyers. I have nothing but praise for each gallery and both have been proactive getting prices in line with reality whereas I know plenty of dealers that are still listing inventory at '07/'08 highs. Should be a nice show and I'd love to get it into my schedule to get over there for it.
>>>Are the pieces in the Andipa exhibtion built up from their own collection or have they 'borrowed' pieces from other galleries/owners for this?<<<
I don't know that there is a 100% answer to this but it is no secret that Andipa have been major buyers of Banksy at auction for years now and are on the short list of galleries one would contact sourcing a specific image as next to Laz they have the most inventory for that artist that I've seen. I doubt much, if any is borrowed from other galleries and would speculate that most is probably owned outright by Andipa with perhaps a few on consignment.
>> Are pieces not put onto their website as they are held back for serious collectors/buyers or is it Andipa stockpiling Banksys to see what happens price wise in the future? <<<
There are very few galleries the world over that will list prices on a website for original works of art of substantial value. This is the norm and not out of the ordinary.
I was surprised to see Are you using that chair/Nighthawk's Cafe included in this show. Unless Acoris bought that outright from Laz (which is possible) then one can speculate that perhaps the two galleries are helping one another out. Laz was offering it at ยฃ1M last year but believe they had reduced the price to ยฃ850k in December or January. As for pricing of the rest of the work, I think many here will be pleasantly surprised. I've bought Banksy's from both galleries and both are priced rather well imho given the current environment and will work with able and willing buyers. I have nothing but praise for each gallery and both have been proactive getting prices in line with reality whereas I know plenty of dealers that are still listing inventory at '07/'08 highs. Should be a nice show and I'd love to get it into my schedule to get over there for it.
>>>Are the pieces in the Andipa exhibtion built up from their own collection or have they 'borrowed' pieces from other galleries/owners for this?<<<
I don't know that there is a 100% answer to this but it is no secret that Andipa have been major buyers of Banksy at auction for years now and are on the short list of galleries one would contact sourcing a specific image as next to Laz they have the most inventory for that artist that I've seen. I doubt much, if any is borrowed from other galleries and would speculate that most is probably owned outright by Andipa with perhaps a few on consignment.
>> Are pieces not put onto their website as they are held back for serious collectors/buyers or is it Andipa stockpiling Banksys to see what happens price wise in the future? <<<
There are very few galleries the world over that will list prices on a website for original works of art of substantial value. This is the norm and not out of the ordinary.
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lee3
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Recession Nearly Over?, by lee3 on Apr 7, 2009 18:05:55 GMT 1, >>>I pray that we return to the lows we recently saw so I can buy more but am rather skeptical it will happen<<<<
Be careful what you wish for. I believe this bear market rally has run its course and not only do I suspect we will return to the lows in short order but also violate them drastically and make new lows. Yes, it's a good time to buy (just as it was in 1930 compared with '29). However, the most damage was done to the markets and the public at large following the '30 bear market correction which finally bottomed in '32 (there were a few more corrections along the way) wiping out a staggering 90% of the market peak to trough. Yes, assets of all kinds look cheap relative to the past 5 or 10 years but we all should be cautioned and very careful as they may look very expensive comparably 5 years from now.
We need to ask ourselves "what if we are wrong" when buying anything of substantial value. What if this global bear market still has 3 or 4 years until it bottoms (which i believe is quite possible)? If so, just about everything any of us is considering buying today will be substanitally cheaper by then. I'm as guilty as anyone for continuing to buy art habitually but they are purchases that I can afford to withstand a write down to zero. I caution anyone who is considering real estate today as more often than not one has to lever themselves up to acquire that asset class and if things continue to move south can easily wipe out one's entire net worth "if they are wrong."
>>>I pray that we return to the lows we recently saw so I can buy more but am rather skeptical it will happen<<<<
Be careful what you wish for. I believe this bear market rally has run its course and not only do I suspect we will return to the lows in short order but also violate them drastically and make new lows. Yes, it's a good time to buy (just as it was in 1930 compared with '29). However, the most damage was done to the markets and the public at large following the '30 bear market correction which finally bottomed in '32 (there were a few more corrections along the way) wiping out a staggering 90% of the market peak to trough. Yes, assets of all kinds look cheap relative to the past 5 or 10 years but we all should be cautioned and very careful as they may look very expensive comparably 5 years from now.
We need to ask ourselves "what if we are wrong" when buying anything of substantial value. What if this global bear market still has 3 or 4 years until it bottoms (which i believe is quite possible)? If so, just about everything any of us is considering buying today will be substanitally cheaper by then. I'm as guilty as anyone for continuing to buy art habitually but they are purchases that I can afford to withstand a write down to zero. I caution anyone who is considering real estate today as more often than not one has to lever themselves up to acquire that asset class and if things continue to move south can easily wipe out one's entire net worth "if they are wrong."
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lee3
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Banksy โข Mild Mild West, Street Art in Bristol, by lee3 on Apr 6, 2009 16:03:46 GMT 1, What a bummer. That's the price of fame these days I suppose. I suppose one can rule out Vermin as a suspect, though perhaps their services in restoration of all things Banksy could be useful as long as they sign a waiver promissing to leave it in place.
What a bummer. That's the price of fame these days I suppose. I suppose one can rule out Vermin as a suspect, though perhaps their services in restoration of all things Banksy could be useful as long as they sign a waiver promissing to leave it in place.
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lee3
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Photos: David Choe new Show in China, by lee3 on Apr 5, 2009 23:14:36 GMT 1, Every time I see a bunch of his new work I pull out my computer and keep looking it over and today is no different. Another thought that has come to mind as I continue to pour over some of the works on bags and especially the sculptures (love the bike with water bottles and the one with the badminton birdie) and works on found wood is whether or not this was deliberate, subconscious, or completely unrelated to Rauschenberg's recent passing? Choe is certainly carrying on the dirty art baton in a fashion that is all his own but this is on another level and I really can't help but wonder. Why the F did I decide to stay home and not fly over there for this?
And I realize that Mao has been done a million times thanks to Warhol but I'm enjoying him in a pink cardigan with that crazy white paint.
Every time I see a bunch of his new work I pull out my computer and keep looking it over and today is no different. Another thought that has come to mind as I continue to pour over some of the works on bags and especially the sculptures (love the bike with water bottles and the one with the badminton birdie) and works on found wood is whether or not this was deliberate, subconscious, or completely unrelated to Rauschenberg's recent passing? Choe is certainly carrying on the dirty art baton in a fashion that is all his own but this is on another level and I really can't help but wonder. Why the F did I decide to stay home and not fly over there for this?
And I realize that Mao has been done a million times thanks to Warhol but I'm enjoying him in a pink cardigan with that crazy white paint.
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lee3
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Photos: David Choe new Show in China, by lee3 on Apr 5, 2009 19:40:07 GMT 1, The more i look at this body of work, I really have to wonder- is he begging to have this show shut down? At the very least it seems he is pushing his luck by defacing their currency and the woman giving head on chinese propaganda with plenty of nudity. I personally love it but I have the impression (perhaps wrongly) that the Chinese government has had very little patience for things in the past that I consider far more tame.
The more i look at this body of work, I really have to wonder- is he begging to have this show shut down? At the very least it seems he is pushing his luck by defacing their currency and the woman giving head on chinese propaganda with plenty of nudity. I personally love it but I have the impression (perhaps wrongly) that the Chinese government has had very little patience for things in the past that I consider far more tame.
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lee3
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Photos: David Choe new Show in China, by lee3 on Apr 5, 2009 18:03:21 GMT 1, Wow. Most, if not all, of that work was done in the past 3 months too. thx for posting
Wow. Most, if not all, of that work was done in the past 3 months too. thx for posting
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lee3
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David Choe - "Dark Circles", by lee3 on Apr 5, 2009 17:36:31 GMT 1, Some far out work from Choe opening in China....
davechoe.blogspot.com/
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lee3
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Show of the year... so far, by lee3 on Apr 5, 2009 0:39:46 GMT 1, For me undoubtedly it is the current Wayne Thiebaud show, Confection Memories, that opened this past Wednesday at his son's gallery. I was more than skeptical since he's close to 90 that he could still pull off his compositions given the required skill. Sure he's lost a step but who hasn't at that age? I was floored walking amongst it yesterday afternoon (sadly missed the opening). A living legend and great to see him still painting and lecturing about his craft. I'll return with my camera and take some photos but most of it is at the link below (click on exhibitions and then view show) albeit in tiny photos. My faves are Cake bell, Chocolate cake, heart candy box, and the one with the wine glasses.
www.paulthiebaudgallery.com/
For me undoubtedly it is the current Wayne Thiebaud show, Confection Memories, that opened this past Wednesday at his son's gallery. I was more than skeptical since he's close to 90 that he could still pull off his compositions given the required skill. Sure he's lost a step but who hasn't at that age? I was floored walking amongst it yesterday afternoon (sadly missed the opening). A living legend and great to see him still painting and lecturing about his craft. I'll return with my camera and take some photos but most of it is at the link below (click on exhibitions and then view show) albeit in tiny photos. My faves are Cake bell, Chocolate cake, heart candy box, and the one with the wine glasses. www.paulthiebaudgallery.com/
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lee3
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Banksy Charity "Pants" Painting, by lee3 on Apr 3, 2009 17:29:41 GMT 1, I am definitely not a bidder. Imho (and no offense to anyone who owns them) the 3 pieces he has donated to charity that are unique in the past month do nothing for me. Perhaps that's why he donated them to charity in the first place? Though i do like this one the best of the 3 (ballg games and flockers being the other two- and if memory serves one of them did not sell?). Neither did that big Nola at Bonham's which i thought was better than all 3 of these.
To me, this is not the environment to be buying haphazardly. My wife and I are only buying pieces we adore at prices we can't refuse. The silver lining being that the market has brought pieces into our price range that 2 years ago we could have only dreamed about.
Nonetheless, good luck to those bidding.
I am definitely not a bidder. Imho (and no offense to anyone who owns them) the 3 pieces he has donated to charity that are unique in the past month do nothing for me. Perhaps that's why he donated them to charity in the first place? Though i do like this one the best of the 3 (ballg games and flockers being the other two- and if memory serves one of them did not sell?). Neither did that big Nola at Bonham's which i thought was better than all 3 of these.
To me, this is not the environment to be buying haphazardly. My wife and I are only buying pieces we adore at prices we can't refuse. The silver lining being that the market has brought pieces into our price range that 2 years ago we could have only dreamed about.
Nonetheless, good luck to those bidding.
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lee3
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Banksy Charity "Pants" Painting, by lee3 on Apr 3, 2009 16:08:05 GMT 1, Sorry for the confusion, i didn't mean that the auction was complete. Rather, my point was that it finally got a bid so it is sold. i suspect it will get more bids in the final 5 minutes.
Sorry for the confusion, i didn't mean that the auction was complete. Rather, my point was that it finally got a bid so it is sold. i suspect it will get more bids in the final 5 minutes.
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lee3
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Banksy Charity "Pants" Painting, by lee3 on Apr 2, 2009 23:18:47 GMT 1, and it's sold with one day to go
and it's sold with one day to go
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lee3
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Recession Nearly Over?, by lee3 on Apr 2, 2009 17:55:52 GMT 1, imho, this bear rally will top out between 9kand 10.3k on the dow. Historically bear market rallies recover 1/3 to 1/2 of the previous decline (and do so in MUCH faster order than the decline itself which is exactly what we are experiencing). I am mentally (and financially) positoned for a worst case resumption of the bear market and a violation of the previous lows taking the dow to historic bear market bottoms (p/e in the single digits with dividend yields around 7%) which is somewhere between dow 3500-5k. To me, that is when you get out of gold in concentration and begin buying stocks in earnest. Art has already taken a 50-75% haricut on the great stuff so a much different market there.
As Ricahrd Russell wisely recalled yesterday "Come into my web" said the spider to the fly. "I'd rather not, cause I'm afraid I'm going to die." "Come and join me" said the market to the crowd. "I never looked better" said the market out loud.
We all need to be careful here and make sure we're not in debt of any kind as "in a bear market everyone loses and the winner is the one who loses the least."
imho, this bear rally will top out between 9kand 10.3k on the dow. Historically bear market rallies recover 1/3 to 1/2 of the previous decline (and do so in MUCH faster order than the decline itself which is exactly what we are experiencing). I am mentally (and financially) positoned for a worst case resumption of the bear market and a violation of the previous lows taking the dow to historic bear market bottoms (p/e in the single digits with dividend yields around 7%) which is somewhere between dow 3500-5k. To me, that is when you get out of gold in concentration and begin buying stocks in earnest. Art has already taken a 50-75% haricut on the great stuff so a much different market there.
As Ricahrd Russell wisely recalled yesterday "Come into my web" said the spider to the fly. "I'd rather not, cause I'm afraid I'm going to die." "Come and join me" said the market to the crowd. "I never looked better" said the market out loud.
We all need to be careful here and make sure we're not in debt of any kind as "in a bear market everyone loses and the winner is the one who loses the least."
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lee3
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recommend a good fine art/pop art forum, by lee3 on Mar 31, 2009 18:27:22 GMT 1, There are none that I'm aware of. As a collector of pop art myself i too looked for one and there is nothing of any frequency or knowledge that you might look for as opposed to this site, WK, and giant for street/urban. It makes sense as most Pop art collectors are over 60 and have radically different web habits. Further, it's so much more expensive to buy quality Pop pieces than this movement so you're talking about a different level of net worth on average which further limits web usage. Pop's day has come and gone and matured relative to this scene but if you find anything, please let me know. There are a few blogs that I follow (Richard Polsky) and artnet.com probably has the best concentration that I've found of articles on shows, prices, and oddities relevant to that movement. Unfortunately, there are precious few Pop artists left among us.
There are none that I'm aware of. As a collector of pop art myself i too looked for one and there is nothing of any frequency or knowledge that you might look for as opposed to this site, WK, and giant for street/urban. It makes sense as most Pop art collectors are over 60 and have radically different web habits. Further, it's so much more expensive to buy quality Pop pieces than this movement so you're talking about a different level of net worth on average which further limits web usage. Pop's day has come and gone and matured relative to this scene but if you find anything, please let me know. There are a few blogs that I follow (Richard Polsky) and artnet.com probably has the best concentration that I've found of articles on shows, prices, and oddities relevant to that movement. Unfortunately, there are precious few Pop artists left among us.
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lee3
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shepard fairy at LAT very interesting, by lee3 on Mar 30, 2009 23:20:17 GMT 1, I own none of his work though by any standards it is remarkably inexpensive for the level of attention he has achieved. I wish this piece was a part of my collection.
Some day I will grab one and must say that I have enjoyed his shows and have really had fun driving around San Fran over the past few months and noticing different compositions he decorated the city with.
I own none of his work though by any standards it is remarkably inexpensive for the level of attention he has achieved. I wish this piece was a part of my collection. Some day I will grab one and must say that I have enjoyed his shows and have really had fun driving around San Fran over the past few months and noticing different compositions he decorated the city with.
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lee3
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Josh Keyes - Scorch - Flutter, by lee3 on Mar 30, 2009 1:10:06 GMT 1, >>It's hard to say lee. a few months back you'd be talking about $2-3k.<<<
Well then I can see why there is a list unless you are talking about print prices. If those are for originals, i'd be happy to pay more than that for the shark one. I've seen much of his work and like some of it a lot. The one with the white shark's dorsal fin burning oil is one that I would love to own. If someone here has that piece and would consider selling, please PM me. if not, another bus will come along in 15 minutes.
>>>. I have been on a list since Sept 2007 with still not a sniff a<<<
That's somewhat remarkable to me as one would think a pretty clear secondary market would form like any other high demand artist. You've been on there for 18 months for an artist whose originals cost less than $5k? I'm failing to understand the logic behind this.
>>It's hard to say lee. a few months back you'd be talking about $2-3k.<<<
Well then I can see why there is a list unless you are talking about print prices. If those are for originals, i'd be happy to pay more than that for the shark one. I've seen much of his work and like some of it a lot. The one with the white shark's dorsal fin burning oil is one that I would love to own. If someone here has that piece and would consider selling, please PM me. if not, another bus will come along in 15 minutes.
>>>. I have been on a list since Sept 2007 with still not a sniff a<<<
That's somewhat remarkable to me as one would think a pretty clear secondary market would form like any other high demand artist. You've been on there for 18 months for an artist whose originals cost less than $5k? I'm failing to understand the logic behind this.
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lee3
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Josh Keyes - Scorch - Flutter, by lee3 on Mar 29, 2009 18:46:24 GMT 1, i do like that scorch 1. i'm not one for lists but what are rough prices of his work?
i do like that scorch 1. i'm not one for lists but what are rough prices of his work?
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Banksy Charity "Pants" Painting, by lee3 on Mar 28, 2009 20:41:06 GMT 1, i believe it will get a few bids and sell. it will probably be an interesting last 5 minutes that it's for sale.
i believe it will get a few bids and sell. it will probably be an interesting last 5 minutes that it's for sale.
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Francis Bacon ๐ฎ๐ช Print Release โข Show News โข Art For Sale, by lee3 on Mar 26, 2009 17:20:49 GMT 1, >>>How do you amass a collection like that, simply incredible. <<<
That collection has been put together VERY quickly. Cohen has made his billions in hedge funds and has built that collection mostly over the past 7 or 8 years. The Turquoise Marilyn was purchased for $80 million in '07 froma Chicago collector. Many of the others were purchased from Wynn and David Geffen. Cohen has not been shy and gone guns a blazing building that remarakable collection in very short order.
>>>How do you amass a collection like that, simply incredible. <<<
That collection has been put together VERY quickly. Cohen has made his billions in hedge funds and has built that collection mostly over the past 7 or 8 years. The Turquoise Marilyn was purchased for $80 million in '07 froma Chicago collector. Many of the others were purchased from Wynn and David Geffen. Cohen has not been shy and gone guns a blazing building that remarakable collection in very short order.
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lee3
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Francis Bacon ๐ฎ๐ช Print Release โข Show News โข Art For Sale, by lee3 on Mar 25, 2009 16:20:52 GMT 1, Any NY friends would do themselves well to check out this exhibit too. I'm currently trying to work it into my work schedule as my eyes have never stood in front of a 40 inch Turquoise Marilyn and this would be on the short list of must sees in the art world for me personally.
www.sothebys.com/liveauctions/event/Women_FINAL.pdf
Any NY friends would do themselves well to check out this exhibit too. I'm currently trying to work it into my work schedule as my eyes have never stood in front of a 40 inch Turquoise Marilyn and this would be on the short list of must sees in the art world for me personally. www.sothebys.com/liveauctions/event/Women_FINAL.pdf
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lee3
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Banksy Charity "Pants" Painting, by lee3 on Mar 25, 2009 16:03:05 GMT 1, Who am I to judge anyone donating anything to the charity of their choice? My shallow question is where on the front of the painting is that signature? I can't seem to find it anywhere and presume it's in the bottom right but my eye can't discern for sure even when I expand the image.
Who am I to judge anyone donating anything to the charity of their choice? My shallow question is where on the front of the painting is that signature? I can't seem to find it anywhere and presume it's in the bottom right but my eye can't discern for sure even when I expand the image.
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by lee3 on Mar 25, 2009 3:40:34 GMT 1, >>>I wonder if the seller has any early Pollocks?<<<<
These are more affordable than one might believe. Early in Pollock's career as I'm sure many here are aware he was heavily consumed and overcome by Picasso. His early stuff (late 30s and early 40s) is just dominated with Picasso influences and like an idiot I stand by and watch these pieces come and go at auction. These works on paper come up at auction once a year or so and are very detailed and intricate works in magnificent condition measuring roughly 8x10 inches will run $25-50k. They are certainly atypical as they have nothing to do with the drip paintings yet they are still mesmerizing (at least to me). There were a pair of these offered last September at what I believed were teaser rates (as similar compositions had sold in that range 3 or 4 years prior) and yet they happened to sell at the low end of the estimate range and there i was kicking myself for having not submitted an absentee bid. Given the weakness of the art market since then, it's not out of the imagination to believe you could get a nice work on paper for $20k and while that is outrageous to most people, it is affordable by his standards. Unlike most atypical work for A list artists, I find these quite compelling.
>>>I wonder if the seller has any early Pollocks?<<<<
These are more affordable than one might believe. Early in Pollock's career as I'm sure many here are aware he was heavily consumed and overcome by Picasso. His early stuff (late 30s and early 40s) is just dominated with Picasso influences and like an idiot I stand by and watch these pieces come and go at auction. These works on paper come up at auction once a year or so and are very detailed and intricate works in magnificent condition measuring roughly 8x10 inches will run $25-50k. They are certainly atypical as they have nothing to do with the drip paintings yet they are still mesmerizing (at least to me). There were a pair of these offered last September at what I believed were teaser rates (as similar compositions had sold in that range 3 or 4 years prior) and yet they happened to sell at the low end of the estimate range and there i was kicking myself for having not submitted an absentee bid. Given the weakness of the art market since then, it's not out of the imagination to believe you could get a nice work on paper for $20k and while that is outrageous to most people, it is affordable by his standards. Unlike most atypical work for A list artists, I find these quite compelling.
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lee3
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November 2009
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Francis Bacon and Adam Neate., by lee3 on Mar 24, 2009 0:16:28 GMT 1, >>>Lee, then why comment at all?<<<
i made a joke at an outlandish comment and then got sucked into this.
>>>You now sound like a pompous d**k! <<<
my apologies, and if that's the case, then please put me on ignore if that is possible at this site.
i'll politely bow out of this "discussion"
>>>Lee, then why comment at all?<<<
i made a joke at an outlandish comment and then got sucked into this.
>>>You now sound like a pompous d**k! <<<
my apologies, and if that's the case, then please put me on ignore if that is possible at this site.
i'll politely bow out of this "discussion"
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lee3
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November 2009
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Francis Bacon and Adam Neate., by lee3 on Mar 23, 2009 23:46:49 GMT 1, >>>But I'm always wary of those who use prices as a absolute measuring stick for artistic quality<<<
For the 3rd time, I am not using price alone. I will argue however that for the upper echelon artists (however you want to describe it- I'll arbitrarily pick artists that have sold for $50 million or more) it is an EXCELLENT barometer with near 100% accuracy as to both talent and influence. That's not to suggest that there aren't artists that were more talented or influential that never achieved such pricing, but the ones that have were and/or are.
>>>It's sometimes worth remembering that an artist's images came first, and the hefty price tags came later, in many cases decades after the artist died.<<<
Which is why i can't believe i'm wasting my time in this thread. As I said in my previous post don't worry about it, enjoy the work on the walls, and let the generations after we have died decide.
>>>And Lee8 just out of interest would be interested in your view who will be remembered from 1990/2000<<<
Again, I have no idea as there is not one artist from that time period that I personally would suggest will ever reach the level that Bacon occupies within art history. Hirst imo could make a nice footnote for embracing and capitalizing on capitalism near its zenith (if in fact that was its zenith).
I'm sorry, no offense to anyone in this thread but this thing sounded like a giant joke to me and I've posted far more within it than I ever intended or desired.
>>>But I'm always wary of those who use prices as a absolute measuring stick for artistic quality<<<
For the 3rd time, I am not using price alone. I will argue however that for the upper echelon artists (however you want to describe it- I'll arbitrarily pick artists that have sold for $50 million or more) it is an EXCELLENT barometer with near 100% accuracy as to both talent and influence. That's not to suggest that there aren't artists that were more talented or influential that never achieved such pricing, but the ones that have were and/or are.
>>>It's sometimes worth remembering that an artist's images came first, and the hefty price tags came later, in many cases decades after the artist died.<<<
Which is why i can't believe i'm wasting my time in this thread. As I said in my previous post don't worry about it, enjoy the work on the walls, and let the generations after we have died decide.
>>>And Lee8 just out of interest would be interested in your view who will be remembered from 1990/2000<<<
Again, I have no idea as there is not one artist from that time period that I personally would suggest will ever reach the level that Bacon occupies within art history. Hirst imo could make a nice footnote for embracing and capitalizing on capitalism near its zenith (if in fact that was its zenith).
I'm sorry, no offense to anyone in this thread but this thing sounded like a giant joke to me and I've posted far more within it than I ever intended or desired.
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lee3
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November 2009
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Francis Bacon and Adam Neate., by lee3 on Mar 23, 2009 22:46:54 GMT 1, And to think someone paid around $15 million for that sperm boy/lonesome cowboy (if i recall correctly it's an edition of 5) just last May. I'd be shocked to see it bring in $4 million now, which is still ridiculously high.
And to think someone paid around $15 million for that sperm boy/lonesome cowboy (if i recall correctly it's an edition of 5) just last May. I'd be shocked to see it bring in $4 million now, which is still ridiculously high.
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lee3
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November 2009
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Francis Bacon and Adam Neate., by lee3 on Mar 23, 2009 22:07:36 GMT 1, >>>Just to remind you, the following artists are still alive:
Andreas Gursky Bruce Nauman Lucian Freud Ryan McGinley Cy Twombly Jeff Koons Gerhard Richter Ed Ruscha Frank Stella Shepard Fairey Richard Prince Anish Kapoor Takashi Murakami <<<
I was just going off the top of my head and yes Freud belongs in that group. Twombly, Richter, Ruscha, Kapoor and Stella (and for that matter Thiebaud, Close, etc as we could go on and on) in my mind are in a different class. One could well argue Richter but I'm not much for lists anyway.
>>>It's not all about money. <<<
And I never said it was, but like it or not if you are in the upper echelon of the art world, the price of your work is going to be in another stratosphere because you are going to have won the collective desire of mankind and therefore be ridiculously expensive. So, in this case price is a pretty damn good reflection of talent at the top level like it or not. If you change the way the public looks at art or have a significant impact on the artists after you, your work will be expensive. Banksy has done quite well for a 30 something year old and his pricing reflects it. But to suggest him or any of the others on the lists above as ever being of equal importance as Bacon is just silly in my mind. Most likely that collective decision will be made long after we are all gone anyway so just enjoy the work on your walls.
And one more thing, spare me on Murukami. Turn your sarcasm meter on if that last statement hurt anyone's feelings.
>>>Just to remind you, the following artists are still alive:
Andreas Gursky Bruce Nauman Lucian Freud Ryan McGinley Cy Twombly Jeff Koons Gerhard Richter Ed Ruscha Frank Stella Shepard Fairey Richard Prince Anish Kapoor Takashi Murakami <<<
I was just going off the top of my head and yes Freud belongs in that group. Twombly, Richter, Ruscha, Kapoor and Stella (and for that matter Thiebaud, Close, etc as we could go on and on) in my mind are in a different class. One could well argue Richter but I'm not much for lists anyway.
>>>It's not all about money. <<<
And I never said it was, but like it or not if you are in the upper echelon of the art world, the price of your work is going to be in another stratosphere because you are going to have won the collective desire of mankind and therefore be ridiculously expensive. So, in this case price is a pretty damn good reflection of talent at the top level like it or not. If you change the way the public looks at art or have a significant impact on the artists after you, your work will be expensive. Banksy has done quite well for a 30 something year old and his pricing reflects it. But to suggest him or any of the others on the lists above as ever being of equal importance as Bacon is just silly in my mind. Most likely that collective decision will be made long after we are all gone anyway so just enjoy the work on your walls.
And one more thing, spare me on Murukami. Turn your sarcasm meter on if that last statement hurt anyone's feelings.
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lee3
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Posts โข 832
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November 2009
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Francis Bacon and Adam Neate., by lee3 on Mar 23, 2009 20:51:18 GMT 1, >>>Not for me it doesn't, thought that quote was a bit derogatory.<<<
Then my apologies but I inject humor at outlandish opportunities whenever possible.
>>>The original post was do you think he will ever reach the acclaim of Bacon, surely that will be judged in 20 to 30 years time. <<<
IOW, do you think that Neate (or for that matter anyone else on the scene today) will share the stage with Picasso, DeKooning, Renoir, Klimt, Johns, Warhol, Van Gogh, Cezzane, da Vinci, Miro, etc. as one of a handful of the most desirable artists to ever walk the earth? Having the artistic power to make thousands of people across the globe pay money each and every day to see their art while the wealthiest few of our species pay unimaginable prices to take possession of their work? My emphatic response is no. There is not one living artist (apart from Johns) that I would be so bold as to make such a claim. I would even say no to Hirst and Koons who are far more successful than anyone in this scene. I'm not trying to be derogatory, more a realist and an orchard/seed is simple reality.
We can all enjoy the ride, but this is getting WAY ahead of oursleves.
>>>Not for me it doesn't, thought that quote was a bit derogatory.<<<
Then my apologies but I inject humor at outlandish opportunities whenever possible.
>>>The original post was do you think he will ever reach the acclaim of Bacon, surely that will be judged in 20 to 30 years time. <<<
IOW, do you think that Neate (or for that matter anyone else on the scene today) will share the stage with Picasso, DeKooning, Renoir, Klimt, Johns, Warhol, Van Gogh, Cezzane, da Vinci, Miro, etc. as one of a handful of the most desirable artists to ever walk the earth? Having the artistic power to make thousands of people across the globe pay money each and every day to see their art while the wealthiest few of our species pay unimaginable prices to take possession of their work? My emphatic response is no. There is not one living artist (apart from Johns) that I would be so bold as to make such a claim. I would even say no to Hirst and Koons who are far more successful than anyone in this scene. I'm not trying to be derogatory, more a realist and an orchard/seed is simple reality.
We can all enjoy the ride, but this is getting WAY ahead of oursleves.
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