jonb
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 82
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July 2014
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Isis
Oct 6, 2014 21:34:07 GMT 1
Isis, by jonb on Oct 6, 2014 21:34:07 GMT 1, For me those are not the questions to start with that is to big and to far off, Also in the use of bombing it is not just about what is happening in the middle east, but rather our societies involvement in it.
So the first question is my society is bombing and as an Englishman that is being done in my name. I do not believe in that action because my knowledge of history tells me it has never produced the results that it is supposed to produce.
Now to say I am against the bombing means I can have the accusation rightly thrown at me of 'Well what would you do?'
To answer that I have to argue that action of itself, is not a solution, you do not play chess by just moving bits around a board, you have an objective. I would also argue that bombing is what ISIS desire because it validates their position that all things western are evil, they do not mind some of their number being killed because the collateral damage brings them far more volunteers than their losses. Just as on the chess board I am more than happy to sacrifice a pawn if it means I can then take your queen. So we see why they use beheadings because it provokes a response and a response they want. Also they can then point to the fact that somewhere about a million Iraqis have died because of/since the Bush Blair invasion and very little in the western media has been said about it, but one or two westerners beheaded and the media goes to town, as such they can say with some evidence look the west don't give a monkeys about you 3/4 of them are more important than a million of us.
Then because we have enabled them to show us as enemies they are then able to point to anybody that is against them and say well that's just a puppet of the evil west support them and you will continued to be bombed.
Then again suppose in the use of force it was managed to rip ISIS apart, all that would happen is there would be a new banner raised to fight the western imperialism, as has been the experience of western intervention for a long time and each time just that bit more extreme.
I would say we have done so much damage now even the role of global policeman is beyond anything we can do because our mere presence is now seen by so many as a provocation. If the west desires to have influence again which is not just at the point of a gun, it has to stand back, if we want to show the world there is an alternative to tyranny we have to put our own house back in order. This will be far harder than dropping bombs, because forces like ISIS would loose creditability if we did and as such would increase their provocation to get us back fighting, and it will be very hard for any government to explain to their voters why the government they voted for is so impotent.
I say because of this first question is: Can we stop digging?
Or
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."
For me those are not the questions to start with that is to big and to far off, Also in the use of bombing it is not just about what is happening in the middle east, but rather our societies involvement in it.
So the first question is my society is bombing and as an Englishman that is being done in my name. I do not believe in that action because my knowledge of history tells me it has never produced the results that it is supposed to produce.
Now to say I am against the bombing means I can have the accusation rightly thrown at me of 'Well what would you do?'
To answer that I have to argue that action of itself, is not a solution, you do not play chess by just moving bits around a board, you have an objective. I would also argue that bombing is what ISIS desire because it validates their position that all things western are evil, they do not mind some of their number being killed because the collateral damage brings them far more volunteers than their losses. Just as on the chess board I am more than happy to sacrifice a pawn if it means I can then take your queen. So we see why they use beheadings because it provokes a response and a response they want. Also they can then point to the fact that somewhere about a million Iraqis have died because of/since the Bush Blair invasion and very little in the western media has been said about it, but one or two westerners beheaded and the media goes to town, as such they can say with some evidence look the west don't give a monkeys about you 3/4 of them are more important than a million of us.
Then because we have enabled them to show us as enemies they are then able to point to anybody that is against them and say well that's just a puppet of the evil west support them and you will continued to be bombed.
Then again suppose in the use of force it was managed to rip ISIS apart, all that would happen is there would be a new banner raised to fight the western imperialism, as has been the experience of western intervention for a long time and each time just that bit more extreme.
I would say we have done so much damage now even the role of global policeman is beyond anything we can do because our mere presence is now seen by so many as a provocation. If the west desires to have influence again which is not just at the point of a gun, it has to stand back, if we want to show the world there is an alternative to tyranny we have to put our own house back in order. This will be far harder than dropping bombs, because forces like ISIS would loose creditability if we did and as such would increase their provocation to get us back fighting, and it will be very hard for any government to explain to their voters why the government they voted for is so impotent.
I say because of this first question is: Can we stop digging?
Or
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."
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spirit
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,956
๐๐ป 516
August 2007
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Isis
Oct 6, 2014 22:10:08 GMT 1
Isis, by spirit on Oct 6, 2014 22:10:08 GMT 1, For me those are not the questions to start with that is to big and to far off, Also in the use of bombing it is not just about what is happening in the middle east, but rather our societies involvement in it. So the first question is my society is bombing and as an Englishman that is being done in my name. I do not believe in that action because my knowledge of history tells me it has never produced the results that it is supposed to produce. Now to say I am against the bombing means I can have the accusation rightly thrown at me of 'Well what would you do?' To answer that I have to argue that action of itself, is not a solution, you do not play chess by just moving bits around a board, you have an objective. I would also argue that bombing is what ISIS desire because it validates their position that all things western are evil, they do not mind some of their number being killed because the collateral damage brings them far more volunteers than their losses. Just as on the chess board I am more than happy to sacrifice a pawn if it means I can then take your queen. So we see why they use beheadings because it provokes a response and a response they want. Also they can then point to the fact that somewhere about a million Iraqis have died because of/since the Bush Blair invasion and very little in the western media has been said about it, but one or two westerners beheaded and the media goes to town, as such they can say with some evidence look the west don't give a monkeys about you 3/4 of them are more important than a million of us. Then because we have enabled them to show us as enemies they are then able to point to anybody that is against them and say well that's just a puppet of the evil west support them and you will continued to be bombed. Then again suppose in the use of force it was managed to rip ISIS apart, all that would happen is there would be a new banner raised to fight the western imperialism, as has been the experience of western intervention for a long time and each time just that bit more extreme. I would say we have done so much damage now even the role of global policeman is beyond anything we can do because our mere presence is now seen by so many as a provocation. If the west desires to have influence again which is not just at the point of a gun, it has to stand back, if we want to show the world there is an alternative to tyranny we have to put our own house back in order. This will be far harder than dropping bombs, because forces like ISIS would loose creditability if we did and as such would increase their provocation to get us back fighting, and it will be very hard for any government to explain to their voters why the government they voted for is so impotent. I say because of this first question is: Can we stop digging? Or "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."
You make some very good points.
However, I do not believe that stepping back and putting our own house in order is the solution here.
If you can bear to watch some of ISIS's own propaganda/recruitment videos (Clashing of the Swords/Flames of War etc) you will hear in their own words that they intend nothing less than the takeover of the entire planet. One big Islamic World Ummah. This is their mission. They recognise no borders. And like terminator - they will not stop until they either succeed or are killed. This is what we are dealing with.
Every day we sit back and do nothing, they get stronger. As one American politician whose name currently escapes me said - Fighting them is inevitable - it is a case of when, not if - and therefore the sooner the better.
I did not support the first or second Iraq wars. They were fought for very questionable reasons. And now most people, even those who supported them at the time, consider them to have been a mistake. However while it was wrong to take action then, I strongly believe that it would be wrong not to take action now. And we must not let our fears of making another mistake prevent us from doing so.
Imo the world has not faced an enemy of such unquestionable evil since the Nazis. In fact I'd say ISIS has the potential over time to be considerably worse - they are certainly more brutal.
Difficult as it is to say, I think the endgame here is going to have to be something very big. In WW2 the Americans were fighting the Japanese who were similarly fanatical - they could not conceive losing and they would rather die than surrender. The answer then? Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Did the survivors/relatives of the dead of those cities swear endless revenge and fight the US for the next century? No - they said sod that for a game of soldiers, we need to fundamentally change our culture to survive - and thats what they did.
Sometimes bombs do work...
I'm not suggesting we nuke the Middle East... but something needs to happen so that the muslim world starts policing radicalisation itself. Where radicalisation becomes completely unacceptable within Islam as a whole. The problem is that right now way too many muslims privately sympathise with many of the aims of groups like ISIS, even if they do not support with the way they are going about it. To many, the ends can justify the means. That needs to change.
To cut a long story short, I believe the solution will eventually come from the muslim world, not the west. But the west will probably need to provide the catalyst. And it won't be pleasant.
For me those are not the questions to start with that is to big and to far off, Also in the use of bombing it is not just about what is happening in the middle east, but rather our societies involvement in it. So the first question is my society is bombing and as an Englishman that is being done in my name. I do not believe in that action because my knowledge of history tells me it has never produced the results that it is supposed to produce. Now to say I am against the bombing means I can have the accusation rightly thrown at me of 'Well what would you do?' To answer that I have to argue that action of itself, is not a solution, you do not play chess by just moving bits around a board, you have an objective. I would also argue that bombing is what ISIS desire because it validates their position that all things western are evil, they do not mind some of their number being killed because the collateral damage brings them far more volunteers than their losses. Just as on the chess board I am more than happy to sacrifice a pawn if it means I can then take your queen. So we see why they use beheadings because it provokes a response and a response they want. Also they can then point to the fact that somewhere about a million Iraqis have died because of/since the Bush Blair invasion and very little in the western media has been said about it, but one or two westerners beheaded and the media goes to town, as such they can say with some evidence look the west don't give a monkeys about you 3/4 of them are more important than a million of us. Then because we have enabled them to show us as enemies they are then able to point to anybody that is against them and say well that's just a puppet of the evil west support them and you will continued to be bombed. Then again suppose in the use of force it was managed to rip ISIS apart, all that would happen is there would be a new banner raised to fight the western imperialism, as has been the experience of western intervention for a long time and each time just that bit more extreme. I would say we have done so much damage now even the role of global policeman is beyond anything we can do because our mere presence is now seen by so many as a provocation. If the west desires to have influence again which is not just at the point of a gun, it has to stand back, if we want to show the world there is an alternative to tyranny we have to put our own house back in order. This will be far harder than dropping bombs, because forces like ISIS would loose creditability if we did and as such would increase their provocation to get us back fighting, and it will be very hard for any government to explain to their voters why the government they voted for is so impotent. I say because of this first question is: Can we stop digging? Or "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." You make some very good points. However, I do not believe that stepping back and putting our own house in order is the solution here. If you can bear to watch some of ISIS's own propaganda/recruitment videos (Clashing of the Swords/Flames of War etc) you will hear in their own words that they intend nothing less than the takeover of the entire planet. One big Islamic World Ummah. This is their mission. They recognise no borders. And like terminator - they will not stop until they either succeed or are killed. This is what we are dealing with. Every day we sit back and do nothing, they get stronger. As one American politician whose name currently escapes me said - Fighting them is inevitable - it is a case of when, not if - and therefore the sooner the better. I did not support the first or second Iraq wars. They were fought for very questionable reasons. And now most people, even those who supported them at the time, consider them to have been a mistake. However while it was wrong to take action then, I strongly believe that it would be wrong not to take action now. And we must not let our fears of making another mistake prevent us from doing so. Imo the world has not faced an enemy of such unquestionable evil since the Nazis. In fact I'd say ISIS has the potential over time to be considerably worse - they are certainly more brutal. Difficult as it is to say, I think the endgame here is going to have to be something very big. In WW2 the Americans were fighting the Japanese who were similarly fanatical - they could not conceive losing and they would rather die than surrender. The answer then? Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Did the survivors/relatives of the dead of those cities swear endless revenge and fight the US for the next century? No - they said sod that for a game of soldiers, we need to fundamentally change our culture to survive - and thats what they did. Sometimes bombs do work... I'm not suggesting we nuke the Middle East... but something needs to happen so that the muslim world starts policing radicalisation itself. Where radicalisation becomes completely unacceptable within Islam as a whole. The problem is that right now way too many muslims privately sympathise with many of the aims of groups like ISIS, even if they do not support with the way they are going about it. To many, the ends can justify the means. That needs to change. To cut a long story short, I believe the solution will eventually come from the muslim world, not the west. But the west will probably need to provide the catalyst. And it won't be pleasant. |
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iamzero
Full Member
๐จ๏ธ 9,190
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May 2011
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Isis
Oct 6, 2014 22:30:21 GMT 1
Isis, by iamzero on Oct 6, 2014 22:30:21 GMT 1, See... Now it's a discussion, with well thought out and reasonable arguments. Good.
See... Now it's a discussion, with well thought out and reasonable arguments. Good.
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Isis
Oct 6, 2014 22:44:40 GMT 1
via mobile
Isis, by Jeezuz Jones Snr on Oct 6, 2014 22:44:40 GMT 1, Fishing for bites!! Did someone say you can ignore or block forum members.. How do I do this.. Cheers Profile --> Edit Profile --> Privacy --> scroll down to "Member Block List"
Thanks, I'm on it 
Fishing for bites!! Did someone say you can ignore or block forum members.. How do I do this.. Cheers Profile --> Edit Profile --> Privacy --> scroll down to "Member Block List" Thanks, I'm on it |
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jonb
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 82
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July 2014
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Isis
Oct 6, 2014 22:49:53 GMT 1
Isis, by jonb on Oct 6, 2014 22:49:53 GMT 1, If you are advocating war the first question is; Is the west powerful enough on its own to win when groups can move from territory to another.
If we have not got the capability of policing a relatively small area like Afghanistan How are we to control the Muslim world from London to China?
If you imagine we have allies who are they going to be, the tin pot dictators that are in place now that hold their power with brutal force and western help?
Will China and Russia sit back and not exploit a situation with an overstretched West?
Who is the enemy? just ISIS, or every anti western group, how anti western?
Is Iran on our side? if you defeat ISIS Iran's influence becomes stronger in the region.
Six months ago or so we nearly went to war against Asad in Syria, now its his enemies.
If we go to war just against ISIS who is going to believe we will just stop there and not turn to attacking Al Qaeda, the Taliban, Boko Haram, Hamas, etc?
Why would if we just went to war with ISIS, the fighters not just change allegiance, and continue just under another banner?
If you are advocating war the first question is; Is the west powerful enough on its own to win when groups can move from territory to another.
If we have not got the capability of policing a relatively small area like Afghanistan How are we to control the Muslim world from London to China?
If you imagine we have allies who are they going to be, the tin pot dictators that are in place now that hold their power with brutal force and western help?
Will China and Russia sit back and not exploit a situation with an overstretched West?
Who is the enemy? just ISIS, or every anti western group, how anti western?
Is Iran on our side? if you defeat ISIS Iran's influence becomes stronger in the region.
Six months ago or so we nearly went to war against Asad in Syria, now its his enemies.
If we go to war just against ISIS who is going to believe we will just stop there and not turn to attacking Al Qaeda, the Taliban, Boko Haram, Hamas, etc?
Why would if we just went to war with ISIS, the fighters not just change allegiance, and continue just under another banner?
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spirit
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,956
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August 2007
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Isis
Oct 6, 2014 22:50:55 GMT 1
Isis, by spirit on Oct 6, 2014 22:50:55 GMT 1, What a clusterfcuk this latest offensive is going to become Bombs heal complex situations always Someone will have to remind me who are the good guys and who are the bad, because it's getting fcuking blurry for clarity I am not saying isis are the good guys, They clearly are not, the problem comes with the Wests policy, those we decide to fight alongside and the evil we create with the poor decisions we make ... Why is one evil dictatorship suddenly acceptable under the right conditions? Why is one extreme militia suddenly our allie to be armed ? Why is violence always the answer?
FWIW I think some people misunderstood your original post. Personally I saw nothing wrong with it at all and I'm a little surprised there wasn't a thread running about ISIS already given its doubtless the biggest cultural/political/military issue of the day.
Roll on the Mickey Mouse AK47 Grenade prints!
What a clusterfcuk this latest offensive is going to become Bombs heal complex situations always Someone will have to remind me who are the good guys and who are the bad, because it's getting fcuking blurry for clarity I am not saying isis are the good guys, They clearly are not, the problem comes with the Wests policy, those we decide to fight alongside and the evil we create with the poor decisions we make ... Why is one evil dictatorship suddenly acceptable under the right conditions? Why is one extreme militia suddenly our allie to be armed ? Why is violence always the answer? FWIW I think some people misunderstood your original post. Personally I saw nothing wrong with it at all and I'm a little surprised there wasn't a thread running about ISIS already given its doubtless the biggest cultural/political/military issue of the day. Roll on the Mickey Mouse AK47 Grenade prints! |
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Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
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Isis, by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 23:12:44 GMT 1, Let's remember somewhere deep in it's heart an element of this forum is an illegal art form, carried out to question the world around us
arguably one of its most famous exponents still to this day touches on subjects that make people feel uncomfortable and want removed...
Let's remember somewhere deep in it's heart an element of this forum is an illegal art form, carried out to question the world around us
arguably one of its most famous exponents still to this day touches on subjects that make people feel uncomfortable and want removed...
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Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
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January 1970
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Isis, by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 23:16:08 GMT 1, I do wonder about the sanctity of human life at the heart of this, one death reported across the front pages .... Hundreds not even mentioned.... Which life is more important? Is the death of one innocent more acceptable than another?
I do wonder about the sanctity of human life at the heart of this, one death reported across the front pages .... Hundreds not even mentioned.... Which life is more important? Is the death of one innocent more acceptable than another?
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johnnyh
Junior Member
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March 2011
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Isis
Oct 6, 2014 23:32:32 GMT 1
Isis, by johnnyh on Oct 6, 2014 23:32:32 GMT 1, I do wonder about the sanctity of human life at the heart of this, one death reported across the front pages .... Hundreds not even mentioned.... Which life is more important? Is the death of one innocent more acceptable than another?  ??
instead of blah blah blah
I do wonder about the sanctity of human life at the heart of this, one death reported across the front pages .... Hundreds not even mentioned.... Which life is more important? Is the death of one innocent more acceptable than another? And your point is.....your just posting and saying nothing. What's your point what's your position and what's your solution? ?? instead of blah blah blah |
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jonb
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 82
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July 2014
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Isis
Oct 6, 2014 23:47:54 GMT 1
Isis, by jonb on Oct 6, 2014 23:47:54 GMT 1, Every day we sit back and do nothing, they get stronger. As one American politician whose name currently escapes me said - Fighting them is inevitable - it is a case of when, not if - and therefore the sooner the better.
link
Sections that might worry you
You see what you quoted could be identified as extremism. That matters because it is proposed that the next conservative government that;
Theresa May said
The home Secretary will have the right to decide what is or is not extreme in their view, so would your statement cross the line?
What is not being noticed is that in these east west conflicts, our traditional rights of free speech are gently being stamped on.
Every day we sit back and do nothing, they get stronger. As one American politician whose name currently escapes me said - Fighting them is inevitable - it is a case of when, not if - and therefore the sooner the better. Have you seen David Cameron's Speech to the UN linkSections that might worry you You see what you quoted could be identified as extremism. That matters because it is proposed that the next conservative government that; Theresa May said The home Secretary will have the right to decide what is or is not extreme in their view, so would your statement cross the line? What is not being noticed is that in these east west conflicts, our traditional rights of free speech are gently being stamped on. |
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spirit
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,956
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August 2007
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Isis
Oct 6, 2014 23:50:03 GMT 1
Isis, by spirit on Oct 6, 2014 23:50:03 GMT 1, If you are advocating war the first question is; Is the west powerful enough on its own to win when groups can move from territory to another.
Yes - I think there is no question that the west is powerful enough militarily and there is nowhere the arm of the US cannot reach. And we are not on our own.
I'd like to make the distinction between policing the world, taking and holding territory, and fighting people who openly declare themselves to be our enemies.
Trying to police the world generally does not work. I believe we should mind our own business where we are not directly threatened.
Taking and holding large amounts of territory like we tried to do in Afghanistan doesn't work either. We get into a war of attrition and losses that the public won't stand for. We need intelligence led operations where we can get in, destroy targets and get out again. This means airstrikes, drones and special quick reaction/special forces.
To a certain extent, locally, yes. That's the nature of the region. But the main allies as ever are US, Canada, Australia and most of Europe.
China and Russia have their own problems with Islamic extremism. Russia has been very quiet about our airstrikes in Syria (considering Syria is is close ally). And China has not said a word. I think in the long term China and Russia will become allies to some extent in this war.
Put simply, we fight those that pose a credible threat against us whoever and wherever they are. If they don't threaten us, leave them be. If they do, smash them.
Our interests and Iran's are currently coming more into alignment. I think this is probably a good thing - after decades of bad relations a thaw with Iran is overdue. By ousting Saddam and putting a puppet sectarian Shia government in control of Iraq we did more to bolster Iran's regional power than fighting ISIS ever will.
Thank goodness we didn't. Our recent efforts at regime change in Libya and Iraq have backfired big time. We have ousted secular dictators who were no danger to us - even though they were brutal to their own people - and the power vacuums we left behind have been filled by radical Islamists who mean us harm. We have ended up with something far worse than what we started with.
If you are advocating war the first question is; Is the west powerful enough on its own to win when groups can move from territory to another. Yes - I think there is no question that the west is powerful enough militarily and there is nowhere the arm of the US cannot reach. And we are not on our own. I'd like to make the distinction between policing the world, taking and holding territory, and fighting people who openly declare themselves to be our enemies. Trying to police the world generally does not work. I believe we should mind our own business where we are not directly threatened. Taking and holding large amounts of territory like we tried to do in Afghanistan doesn't work either. We get into a war of attrition and losses that the public won't stand for. We need intelligence led operations where we can get in, destroy targets and get out again. This means airstrikes, drones and special quick reaction/special forces. To a certain extent, locally, yes. That's the nature of the region. But the main allies as ever are US, Canada, Australia and most of Europe. China and Russia have their own problems with Islamic extremism. Russia has been very quiet about our airstrikes in Syria (considering Syria is is close ally). And China has not said a word. I think in the long term China and Russia will become allies to some extent in this war. Put simply, we fight those that pose a credible threat against us whoever and wherever they are. If they don't threaten us, leave them be. If they do, smash them. Our interests and Iran's are currently coming more into alignment. I think this is probably a good thing - after decades of bad relations a thaw with Iran is overdue. By ousting Saddam and putting a puppet sectarian Shia government in control of Iraq we did more to bolster Iran's regional power than fighting ISIS ever will. Thank goodness we didn't. Our recent efforts at regime change in Libya and Iraq have backfired big time. We have ousted secular dictators who were no danger to us - even though they were brutal to their own people - and the power vacuums we left behind have been filled by radical Islamists who mean us harm. We have ended up with something far worse than what we started with. |
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Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
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Isis, by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 23:52:21 GMT 1, Ah yes security laws another facet - curtailment if freedom to make us 'safe', sometime I wonder who from? Ourselves? Sorry that's another question.
Ah yes security laws another facet - curtailment if freedom to make us 'safe', sometime I wonder who from? Ourselves? Sorry that's another question.
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misterx
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,433
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December 2010
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Isis
Oct 6, 2014 23:55:00 GMT 1
Isis, by misterx on Oct 6, 2014 23:55:00 GMT 1, I do wonder about the sanctity of human life at the heart of this, one death reported across the front pages .... Hundreds not even mentioned.... Which life is more important? Is the death of one innocent more acceptable than another? And your point is.....your just posting and saying nothing. What's your point what's your position and what's your solution? ?? instead of blah blah blah
I know I am.
I do wonder about the sanctity of human life at the heart of this, one death reported across the front pages .... Hundreds not even mentioned.... Which life is more important? Is the death of one innocent more acceptable than another? And your point is.....your just posting and saying nothing. What's your point what's your position and what's your solution? ?? instead of blah blah blah I think BRs point is clear. He/ she is rightly pissed off with the State of Play at the moment, how the media manipulates news to follow an agenda and how Western life is valued more greatly than that of a non westerner. I know I am. |
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spirit
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,956
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August 2007
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Isis
Oct 7, 2014 0:14:40 GMT 1
Isis, by spirit on Oct 7, 2014 0:14:40 GMT 1, jonb
I hadn't seen that Cameron speech but it doesn't bother me at all.
The "prophecies of a global war of religion pitting Muslims against the rest of the world" does not relate to comments like mine. It refers to Islamic prophecies which state exactly that.
See:
reut.rs/WOlCSj
Oddly enough I first came across these prophecies when I met some JKLF (Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front) and Hizbul Mujahideen militants in Kasmir in 1994. Back in the good old days when as a UK citizen you could hang out with some Kashmiri Jihadi's without getting your head lopped off... (that all changed in 1995).
jonbI hadn't seen that Cameron speech but it doesn't bother me at all. The "prophecies of a global war of religion pitting Muslims against the rest of the world" does not relate to comments like mine. It refers to Islamic prophecies which state exactly that. See: reut.rs/WOlCSjOddly enough I first came across these prophecies when I met some JKLF (Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front) and Hizbul Mujahideen militants in Kasmir in 1994. Back in the good old days when as a UK citizen you could hang out with some Kashmiri Jihadi's without getting your head lopped off... (that all changed in 1995).
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curiousgeorge
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 5,833
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March 2007
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Isis
Oct 7, 2014 0:21:21 GMT 1
Isis, by curiousgeorge on Oct 7, 2014 0:21:21 GMT 1, I can't be the only member here sick to death of BadRobot being called a troll for questioning anything/everything?? Not to sidetrack the thread but it really shows the limits of intelligence when that's all people can say.
More than once BR has pointed out the Artists name of the forum and what he stands for (question everything,accept nothing!!) Yet still gets called out as a trouble maker
What an age to bring our children up in!! At school they promote(or should) tolerance and understanding. Yet look at the state of the news/media.
I can't be the only member here sick to death of BadRobot being called a troll for questioning anything/everything?? Not to sidetrack the thread but it really shows the limits of intelligence when that's all people can say.
More than once BR has pointed out the Artists name of the forum and what he stands for (question everything,accept nothing!!) Yet still gets called out as a trouble maker
What an age to bring our children up in!! At school they promote(or should) tolerance and understanding. Yet look at the state of the news/media.
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jonb
New Member
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July 2014
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Isis
Oct 7, 2014 0:35:28 GMT 1
Isis, by jonb on Oct 7, 2014 0:35:28 GMT 1, Like the actions that are being done in Pakistan, is that going well? What about the Gaza strip forty five square miles, has the resistance stopped?
As for China and Russia having their own problems the re taking of Taiwan, moving America out of South Korea and claiming Back Japanese Islands would be great ways of solidifying the Chinese governments position at home and the Russian position on the Ukraine has helped Putin's place as top dog, and what about other small states which were part of the USSR?
If the west gained complete control of south Eurasia, Russia and China would have to accept they were no more than satellite states, that will not happen without a fight. They will use every power they have to stop that from happening.
It is an old story the more force a power uses the more important it becomes to resist them.
PS sorry cannot get your quote in the right place spirit.
' This means airstrikes, drones and special quick reaction/special forces
.'
Like the actions that are being done in Pakistan, is that going well? What about the Gaza strip forty five square miles, has the resistance stopped? As for China and Russia having their own problems the re taking of Taiwan, moving America out of South Korea and claiming Back Japanese Islands would be great ways of solidifying the Chinese governments position at home and the Russian position on the Ukraine has helped Putin's place as top dog, and what about other small states which were part of the USSR? If the west gained complete control of south Eurasia, Russia and China would have to accept they were no more than satellite states, that will not happen without a fight. They will use every power they have to stop that from happening. It is an old story the more force a power uses the more important it becomes to resist them. PS sorry cannot get your quote in the right place spirit. ' This means airstrikes, drones and special quick reaction/special forces .' |
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jonb
New Member
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July 2014
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Isis
Oct 7, 2014 0:45:00 GMT 1
Isis, by jonb on Oct 7, 2014 0:45:00 GMT 1, jonbI hadn't seen that Cameron speech but it doesn't bother me at all. The "prophecies of a global war of religion pitting Muslims against the rest of the world" does not relate to comments like mine. It refers to Islamic prophecies which state exactly that.
jonbI hadn't seen that Cameron speech but it doesn't bother me at all. The "prophecies of a global war of religion pitting Muslims against the rest of the world" does not relate to comments like mine. It refers to Islamic prophecies which state exactly that. No you are wrong, it is also, the questioning of 9/11, not just Islamacists, but right wing christians who talk about a clash of civilisations, or anybody the Home secretary decides is extreme. It does not matter if you or I think we are extreme or not. |
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curiousgeorge
Junior Member
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March 2007
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Isis
Oct 7, 2014 0:51:07 GMT 1
Isis, by curiousgeorge on Oct 7, 2014 0:51:07 GMT 1, Next logical step is a war against Islamโฆ
Seems legit to me
Scary,scary times!
Next logical step is a war against Islamโฆ
Seems legit to me
Scary,scary times!
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misterx
Junior Member
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December 2010
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Isis
Oct 7, 2014 3:16:57 GMT 1
Isis, by misterx on Oct 7, 2014 3:16:57 GMT 1, I don't think it has anything to do with being extreme.
I can rattle off plenty of examples of murderous regimes that the West turns a blind eye too, the US included.
I don't think this has anything to do with the beheadings and everything to do with US hegemony.
The beheadings have been the excuse... Not the reason IMO.
I don't think it has anything to do with being extreme.
I can rattle off plenty of examples of murderous regimes that the West turns a blind eye too, the US included.
I don't think this has anything to do with the beheadings and everything to do with US hegemony.
The beheadings have been the excuse... Not the reason IMO.
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johnnyh
Junior Member
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March 2011
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Isis
Oct 7, 2014 6:53:06 GMT 1
Isis, by johnnyh on Oct 7, 2014 6:53:06 GMT 1, And your point is.....your just posting and saying nothing. What's your point what's your position and what's your solution? ?? instead of blah blah blah I think BRs point is clear. He/ she is rightly pissed off with the State of Play at the moment, how the media manipulates news to follow an agenda and how Western life is valued more greatly than that of a non westerner. I know I am.
in my view sick animals should be put down
And your point is.....your just posting and saying nothing. What's your point what's your position and what's your solution? ?? instead of blah blah blah I think BRs point is clear. He/ she is rightly pissed off with the State of Play at the moment, how the media manipulates news to follow an agenda and how Western life is valued more greatly than that of a non westerner. I know I am. Well may be you and Badrobot are judging things by the front pages rather than the numbers of lives being lost to ISIS and the atrocities committed in Iraq and Syria. There's a lot more going on with them than the odd execution of a re porter or aid worker. There mass killing of Iraqi soldiers also made the front pages as I recall if that makes things more palatable for you both. However the fact that they they are videoing and circulating these horrific murders does in someway highlight their love of human life. I am sure they are touched by you and Badrobots support. in my view sick animals should be put down |
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Isis
Oct 7, 2014 6:54:47 GMT 1
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johnnyh
Junior Member
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March 2011
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Isis
Oct 7, 2014 7:02:12 GMT 1
Isis, by johnnyh on Oct 7, 2014 7:02:12 GMT 1, I can't be the only member here sick to death of BadRobot being called a troll for questioning anything/everything?? Not to sidetrack the thread but it really shows the limits of intelligence when that's all people can say. More than once BR has pointed out the Artists name of the forum and what he stands for (question everything,accept nothing!!) Yet still gets called out as a trouble maker What an age to bring our children up in!! At school they promote(or should) tolerance and understanding. Yet look at the state of the news/media.
ISIS have entered Kobane this morning I am sure they will look after the Kurds there
I can't be the only member here sick to death of BadRobot being called a troll for questioning anything/everything?? Not to sidetrack the thread but it really shows the limits of intelligence when that's all people can say. More than once BR has pointed out the Artists name of the forum and what he stands for (question everything,accept nothing!!) Yet still gets called out as a trouble maker What an age to bring our children up in!! At school they promote(or should) tolerance and understanding. Yet look at the state of the news/media. I think your the only one using the word troll....I was just questioning his point and asking what his solution was..... ISIS have entered Kobane this morning I am sure they will look after the Kurds there |
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Isis
Oct 7, 2014 7:29:04 GMT 1
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Deleted
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Isis
Oct 7, 2014 8:20:38 GMT 1
Isis, by Deleted on Oct 7, 2014 8:20:38 GMT 1, I can't be the only member here sick to death of BadRobot being called a troll for questioning anything/everything?? Not to sidetrack the thread but it really shows the limits of intelligence when that's all people can say. More than once BR has pointed out the Artists name of the forum and what he stands for (question everything,accept nothing!!) Yet still gets called out as a trouble maker What an age to bring our children up in!! At school they promote(or should) tolerance and understanding. Yet look at the state of the news/media.
I can't be the only member here sick to death of BadRobot being called a troll for questioning anything/everything?? Not to sidetrack the thread but it really shows the limits of intelligence when that's all people can say. More than once BR has pointed out the Artists name of the forum and what he stands for (question everything,accept nothing!!) Yet still gets called out as a trouble maker What an age to bring our children up in!! At school they promote(or should) tolerance and understanding. Yet look at the state of the news/media. Im with this. BR is a star. |
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Isis
Oct 7, 2014 10:11:23 GMT 1
Isis, by Deleted on Oct 7, 2014 10:11:23 GMT 1, I can't be the only member here sick to death of BadRobot being called a troll for questioning anything/everything?? Not to sidetrack the thread but it really shows the limits of intelligence when that's all people can say. More than once BR has pointed out the Artists name of the forum and what he stands for (question everything,accept nothing!!) Yet still gets called out as a trouble maker What an age to bring our children up in!! At school they promote(or should) tolerance and understanding. Yet look at the state of the news/media. Im with this. BR is a star.
Before this thread had a chance to get going, people like Iamzero wanted it deleted, coz they are insulted and offended by ISIS - I would be embarrased, disgusted and offended when a british made bullet or an american made grenade blows the head off a child in a territory that is illegally occupied.
I can't be the only member here sick to death of BadRobot being called a troll for questioning anything/everything?? Not to sidetrack the thread but it really shows the limits of intelligence when that's all people can say. More than once BR has pointed out the Artists name of the forum and what he stands for (question everything,accept nothing!!) Yet still gets called out as a trouble maker What an age to bring our children up in!! At school they promote(or should) tolerance and understanding. Yet look at the state of the news/media. Im with this. BR is a star. me too Before this thread had a chance to get going, people like Iamzero wanted it deleted, coz they are insulted and offended by ISIS - I would be embarrased, disgusted and offended when a british made bullet or an american made grenade blows the head off a child in a territory that is illegally occupied. |
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johnnyh
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 4,492
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March 2011
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Isis
Oct 7, 2014 15:50:09 GMT 1
Isis, by johnnyh on Oct 7, 2014 15:50:09 GMT 1, ISIS get away with it due to comments like that ...very foolish
ISIS get away with it due to comments like that ...very foolish
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angel41
Artist
New Member
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May 2013
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Isis
Oct 7, 2014 16:35:48 GMT 1
Isis, by angel41 on Oct 7, 2014 16:35:48 GMT 1, Had the world acted earlier against Nazi Germany then millions of innocent lives might have been saved.
Had the world acted earlier against Nazi Germany then millions of innocent lives might have been saved.
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jonb
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 82
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July 2014
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Isis
Oct 7, 2014 17:10:11 GMT 1
Isis, by jonb on Oct 7, 2014 17:10:11 GMT 1, An if the European powers had not cranked things up so much before 1914 there might not have been two world wars, so many ifs and buts,
just one fact
Nobody has won a war from the air.
An if the European powers had not cranked things up so much before 1914 there might not have been two world wars, so many ifs and buts,
just one fact
Nobody has won a war from the air.
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Isis
Oct 7, 2014 17:38:28 GMT 1
Isis, by Happy Shopper on Oct 7, 2014 17:38:28 GMT 1, I see people talking about this new conflict with Isis as if it's like the various Iraq Wars and other suspicious wars in the middle east.
To me this feels very different. It may be a problem we inadvertently created (creating hatred against the west, where there wasn't so much!)... but surely we have to step in and try to fix the mess.
Either way... Not good!
I see people talking about this new conflict with Isis as if it's like the various Iraq Wars and other suspicious wars in the middle east.
To me this feels very different. It may be a problem we inadvertently created (creating hatred against the west, where there wasn't so much!)... but surely we have to step in and try to fix the mess.
Either way... Not good!
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jonb
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 82
๐๐ป 90
July 2014
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Isis
Oct 7, 2014 18:15:56 GMT 1
Isis, by jonb on Oct 7, 2014 18:15:56 GMT 1, Problem is without an objective, stepping in will cause more mess. You could say the objective is to remove ISIS, but in the fluidity of the middle east even the most brutal action, could only at best stop these people calling themselves ISIS and they would then fight under a new banner. However the brutality of action needed to remove ISIS will recruit even more people into the strongly anti 'western' fold.
Problem is without an objective, stepping in will cause more mess. You could say the objective is to remove ISIS, but in the fluidity of the middle east even the most brutal action, could only at best stop these people calling themselves ISIS and they would then fight under a new banner. However the brutality of action needed to remove ISIS will recruit even more people into the strongly anti 'western' fold.
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