Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
|
|
|
jonb
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 82
๐๐ป 90
July 2014
|
Isis
Oct 9, 2014 2:50:42 GMT 1
Isis, by jonb on Oct 9, 2014 2:50:42 GMT 1, So an alternative initiation for young men to enter adulthood may be required, is this saying that all boys should join Amateur Rugby clubs? Well it might have taught a few posters on this thread to play the ball and not the man.
So an alternative initiation for young men to enter adulthood may be required, is this saying that all boys should join Amateur Rugby clubs? Well it might have taught a few posters on this thread to play the ball and not the man.
|
|
love
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,649
๐๐ป 391
October 2009
|
Isis
Oct 9, 2014 20:14:22 GMT 1
Isis, by love on Oct 9, 2014 20:14:22 GMT 1, Can't believe that we are still discussing if military intervention is the right answer to terrorism.
Can't believe that we are still discussing if military intervention is the right answer to terrorism.
|
|
johnnyh
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 4,492
๐๐ป 2,102
March 2011
|
Isis
Oct 10, 2014 0:56:56 GMT 1
Isis, by johnnyh on Oct 10, 2014 0:56:56 GMT 1, No nor me Love their such a polite bunch pretty sure as Curious George said they would be happy to negotiate.
Anyway who cares what they will do to the Kurds ...particularly their female soldiers...
But then again I am not sure why but I fear for the Kurds and how little is being done to help them.......
Not sure why?
but some people just don't sit round and negotiate..
No nor me Love their such a polite bunch pretty sure as Curious George said they would be happy to negotiate. Anyway who cares what they will do to the Kurds ...particularly their female soldiers... But then again I am not sure why but I fear for the Kurds and how little is being done to help them....... Not sure why? but some people just don't sit round and negotiate.. |
|
Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
|
Isis, by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 1:36:56 GMT 1, No one is disputing the evil that man does no one NO ONE
However the discussion is about a long term solution
I really despair at the shallow approach of front page hysteria to a problem that is so complex and so fcuking hideous for so many innocents
Whilst that shallowness continues politicians and their like will never properly be held to account
No one is disputing the evil that man does no one NO ONE
However the discussion is about a long term solution
I really despair at the shallow approach of front page hysteria to a problem that is so complex and so fcuking hideous for so many innocents
Whilst that shallowness continues politicians and their like will never properly be held to account
|
|
jonb
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 82
๐๐ป 90
July 2014
|
Isis
Oct 10, 2014 1:58:11 GMT 1
Isis, by jonb on Oct 10, 2014 1:58:11 GMT 1, Yes I understand there are those who want the bombing, but of who?
Do you agree with Turkey that Assad should also be bombed as his forces seem to be using the opportunity to now concentrate their attacks on the 'Moderate Arabs' while the west holds back ISIS. On the other hand as Iran is backing Assad who are holding back ISIS in other areas do you think we should not bomb his forces? These Moderate Arabs also contest and fight with Kurds in other areas and kill Kurds for being Kurdish. So do you think as these 'Moderate Arabs' kill Kurds that we should bomb them as well?
Now the 'moderate Arabs' can be defined into two main camps those backed by Iran and those backed by Saudi Arabia you might not want to bomb those of Saudi Arabia and that would be difficult because Saudi Arabia is supplying some of your forces it might be difficult to get them to bomb their own side, So I would understand If you thought we should not bomb them, however the strange thing about that is it is these groups that are supposed to have organised 9 11 and the London bombings and Madrid etc, so the group which has most attacked the west and would be presumed to be the largest threat is the one we do not attack.
However you might think as the Kurdish fighters are part of the PKK or allied organisation realise that the PKK is still a proscribed terrorist organisation and think we should bomb them as well.
Or you might say we should restrict the bombings to only those under the ISIS banner, which is fine but in the fluid nature of this region if you were successful in bombing the ISIS influence back, would the people of this group not just change banners just as has happened in the past so that after all your bombing what would you have won?
So what will be the cost in lives,
who are you bombing, and how would you win?
Yes I understand there are those who want the bombing, but of who?
Do you agree with Turkey that Assad should also be bombed as his forces seem to be using the opportunity to now concentrate their attacks on the 'Moderate Arabs' while the west holds back ISIS. On the other hand as Iran is backing Assad who are holding back ISIS in other areas do you think we should not bomb his forces? These Moderate Arabs also contest and fight with Kurds in other areas and kill Kurds for being Kurdish. So do you think as these 'Moderate Arabs' kill Kurds that we should bomb them as well?
Now the 'moderate Arabs' can be defined into two main camps those backed by Iran and those backed by Saudi Arabia you might not want to bomb those of Saudi Arabia and that would be difficult because Saudi Arabia is supplying some of your forces it might be difficult to get them to bomb their own side, So I would understand If you thought we should not bomb them, however the strange thing about that is it is these groups that are supposed to have organised 9 11 and the London bombings and Madrid etc, so the group which has most attacked the west and would be presumed to be the largest threat is the one we do not attack.
However you might think as the Kurdish fighters are part of the PKK or allied organisation realise that the PKK is still a proscribed terrorist organisation and think we should bomb them as well.
Or you might say we should restrict the bombings to only those under the ISIS banner, which is fine but in the fluid nature of this region if you were successful in bombing the ISIS influence back, would the people of this group not just change banners just as has happened in the past so that after all your bombing what would you have won?
So what will be the cost in lives,
who are you bombing, and how would you win?
|
|
|
|
Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
|
Isis, by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 2:09:47 GMT 1, No that's to complex !!!
I need to beat my chest, kill someone and feel better !!!
No that's to complex !!!
I need to beat my chest, kill someone and feel better !!!
|
|
johnnyh
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 4,492
๐๐ป 2,102
March 2011
|
Isis
Oct 10, 2014 6:48:49 GMT 1
Isis, by johnnyh on Oct 10, 2014 6:48:49 GMT 1, But your wrong it is not my ideal to bomb anyone. But with the imminent annihilation / genocide / atrocities about to happen to the Kurds it seems to me the only choice and yes I would have troops on the ground also.
There will be no talks with ISIS they would not want any.
you can say this is a discussion about a long term solution Badrobot.Jonb,CGrorge.....but this is happening now it's not a theorey it's taking place...what happens now what are you going to do?
Yep I have given actions of what I would want you disagree fine. But what are your actions what are you going to do? You can say it's complex but that alters nothing. What are you going to do?
Or do you just let the atrocities continue...note the photos above are polite ones!! This is not shallow hysteria BR you may dis pair of it but this is what's happening....I dispair of your want to let this barbarism continue....that's what happens if you do nothing.
you want to negotiate. Ok what do you assume they want? What do you assume you will have to offer?
remembering that anyone under their control and it is control with just about other than life if their lucky will have every basic human right to expression withdrawn.
these are not freedom fighters this is the most violent form of suppression seen for along while it's up there with the best.
sorry they ain't gonna sit round a table in my view if you think they will ...what are you offering?........
So let's hear it..what are you going to do or are you just going to let them take the city now then get a map out where do you think they will go next?
what is you next action in your long term solution? Because people are being butchered, women are being raped and enslaved while you think about it..children being crucified,stoned for using FaceTime etc.
But your wrong it is not my ideal to bomb anyone. But with the imminent annihilation / genocide / atrocities about to happen to the Kurds it seems to me the only choice and yes I would have troops on the ground also.
There will be no talks with ISIS they would not want any.
you can say this is a discussion about a long term solution Badrobot.Jonb,CGrorge.....but this is happening now it's not a theorey it's taking place...what happens now what are you going to do?
Yep I have given actions of what I would want you disagree fine. But what are your actions what are you going to do? You can say it's complex but that alters nothing. What are you going to do?
Or do you just let the atrocities continue...note the photos above are polite ones!! This is not shallow hysteria BR you may dis pair of it but this is what's happening....I dispair of your want to let this barbarism continue....that's what happens if you do nothing.
you want to negotiate. Ok what do you assume they want? What do you assume you will have to offer?
remembering that anyone under their control and it is control with just about other than life if their lucky will have every basic human right to expression withdrawn.
these are not freedom fighters this is the most violent form of suppression seen for along while it's up there with the best.
sorry they ain't gonna sit round a table in my view if you think they will ...what are you offering?........
So let's hear it..what are you going to do or are you just going to let them take the city now then get a map out where do you think they will go next?
what is you next action in your long term solution? Because people are being butchered, women are being raped and enslaved while you think about it..children being crucified,stoned for using FaceTime etc.
|
|
jonb
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 82
๐๐ป 90
July 2014
|
Isis
Oct 10, 2014 9:12:18 GMT 1
Isis, by jonb on Oct 10, 2014 9:12:18 GMT 1, To do something you have to know what you are doing, that is the central problem.
I was listening to the BBC world service last night there were two reports.
One had a Turkish government representative, who said, that it was pointless bombing the town now as all the women and children had left and there were only terrorists there now so the bombing was doing nothing.
No doubt this view is coloured by the way successive Turkish governments have seen the Kurds as no more than a sub race of terrorists.
But that is an important problem you can back one group, and help it gain control, but the loosing group is not going to disappear, and so has to turn to more extreme methods of fighting back because across this whole region nobody has given quarter to a loosing side for a very long time.
The second report I heard was from a school for Syrian refugees, 5000 children and 75 teachers which was all that could be afforded even though many of the teachers had not been paid for many months. The interviewer talked to the parents who said ISIS is not the enemy they are a problem but would easily be dealt with if their groups were given guns and Assad was removed. Remember Assad has used gas to kill these people on mass. At the moment though because there have been no talks we cannot attack Assad because we will loose support or might even actively force Iran and Russia to take up arms or underhandedly work against us. These parents were pleading for Obama to intervene against Assad, and were voicing the view if the west only fights ISIS then the west is not for them in that it only deals with those that cause it a problem and is not interested in anyone else. Thus even to solve a problem in one area is a recruitment call for ISIS or the like because so many will then ask why we sorted out that problem in that area but ignored their problems.
Lets me just make that clear even if we harm nobody by not helping a group we are creating enemies!
This I would say is because for so long our politicians have said do this and we will solve the situation, and the people see how powerful the west is with weapons and technology and unfortunately they believe the lie. So when the situation is not solved the only conclusion that is reasonable for them to draw from it is that the west either cannot be bothered to solve things or is actually causing the problem.
At the moment we have cobbled together a group of allies to bomb ISIS, but even that group want different results from each other as an outcome so even at the end nobody within the group of allies is going to be satisfied because there is no common objective. If we cannot even satisfy our direct allies in the area what hope is there of creating any sort of stable situation.
This is the creation of a war that simply cannot be won, because there is no agreement on what a win would look like.
This points to the problem being the short term objectives Western politicians, It is hard for a democratic politician to stand up and say I am not powerful enough to deal with this; so they don't, what they do do is say we will bomb these fanatics because they only understand force and it will take till just after the next election to defeat them. In this way our politicians look nice and strong and although what they are doing is of itself causing deaths for no gain has at least pushed the problem to a time when somebody else will have to deal with it and they will be long gone.
There is only one solution we have to grow up, realise that even though we pay huge amounts in Taxes no army can be big enough to do everything. Realise our politicians are not gods and cannot solve every problem easily and vote against liars who say they can. Then we might get people who can admit their impotence and start jaw jaw instead of war war.
It does not matter if or if not ISIS will enter talks, we are not even talking to our Allies at the moment.
So before entering war we need first to sort out.
If the enemy is removed from an area who takes it over, in areas of mixed populations how are they going to be administered so that the groups within can stop fighting each other and who is going to arbitrate? and what is expected from and given to interested parties, and who are we fighting.
This is very basic stuff, that it has not been done is incredible.
And the reason why we should work against the present administrations of our countries.
PS as for the pictures I suggest you look at Goya disasters of war. It is what war looks like once the Hollywood play-station guff is removed.
To do something you have to know what you are doing, that is the central problem.
I was listening to the BBC world service last night there were two reports.
One had a Turkish government representative, who said, that it was pointless bombing the town now as all the women and children had left and there were only terrorists there now so the bombing was doing nothing.
No doubt this view is coloured by the way successive Turkish governments have seen the Kurds as no more than a sub race of terrorists.
But that is an important problem you can back one group, and help it gain control, but the loosing group is not going to disappear, and so has to turn to more extreme methods of fighting back because across this whole region nobody has given quarter to a loosing side for a very long time.
The second report I heard was from a school for Syrian refugees, 5000 children and 75 teachers which was all that could be afforded even though many of the teachers had not been paid for many months. The interviewer talked to the parents who said ISIS is not the enemy they are a problem but would easily be dealt with if their groups were given guns and Assad was removed. Remember Assad has used gas to kill these people on mass. At the moment though because there have been no talks we cannot attack Assad because we will loose support or might even actively force Iran and Russia to take up arms or underhandedly work against us. These parents were pleading for Obama to intervene against Assad, and were voicing the view if the west only fights ISIS then the west is not for them in that it only deals with those that cause it a problem and is not interested in anyone else. Thus even to solve a problem in one area is a recruitment call for ISIS or the like because so many will then ask why we sorted out that problem in that area but ignored their problems.
Lets me just make that clear even if we harm nobody by not helping a group we are creating enemies!
This I would say is because for so long our politicians have said do this and we will solve the situation, and the people see how powerful the west is with weapons and technology and unfortunately they believe the lie. So when the situation is not solved the only conclusion that is reasonable for them to draw from it is that the west either cannot be bothered to solve things or is actually causing the problem.
At the moment we have cobbled together a group of allies to bomb ISIS, but even that group want different results from each other as an outcome so even at the end nobody within the group of allies is going to be satisfied because there is no common objective. If we cannot even satisfy our direct allies in the area what hope is there of creating any sort of stable situation.
This is the creation of a war that simply cannot be won, because there is no agreement on what a win would look like.
This points to the problem being the short term objectives Western politicians, It is hard for a democratic politician to stand up and say I am not powerful enough to deal with this; so they don't, what they do do is say we will bomb these fanatics because they only understand force and it will take till just after the next election to defeat them. In this way our politicians look nice and strong and although what they are doing is of itself causing deaths for no gain has at least pushed the problem to a time when somebody else will have to deal with it and they will be long gone.
There is only one solution we have to grow up, realise that even though we pay huge amounts in Taxes no army can be big enough to do everything. Realise our politicians are not gods and cannot solve every problem easily and vote against liars who say they can. Then we might get people who can admit their impotence and start jaw jaw instead of war war.
It does not matter if or if not ISIS will enter talks, we are not even talking to our Allies at the moment.
So before entering war we need first to sort out.
If the enemy is removed from an area who takes it over, in areas of mixed populations how are they going to be administered so that the groups within can stop fighting each other and who is going to arbitrate? and what is expected from and given to interested parties, and who are we fighting.
This is very basic stuff, that it has not been done is incredible.
And the reason why we should work against the present administrations of our countries.
PS as for the pictures I suggest you look at Goya disasters of war. It is what war looks like once the Hollywood play-station guff is removed.
|
|
johnnyh
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 4,492
๐๐ป 2,102
March 2011
|
Isis
Oct 10, 2014 9:33:22 GMT 1
Isis, by johnnyh on Oct 10, 2014 9:33:22 GMT 1, That's all very well Jonb but you have said what cannot happen in your view again but not what can....big rant but no solutions.
But actually most of what you say can be solved through force...not a bit of bombing here and there but force.
You on the other hand have said nothing.
Ps if you think that's what war looks like you are very much mistaken
That's all very well Jonb but you have said what cannot happen in your view again but not what can....big rant but no solutions.
But actually most of what you say can be solved through force...not a bit of bombing here and there but force.
You on the other hand have said nothing.
Ps if you think that's what war looks like you are very much mistaken
|
|
Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
|
Isis
Oct 10, 2014 9:36:50 GMT 1
Isis, by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 9:36:50 GMT 1, But actually most of what you say can be solved through force...not a bit of bombing here and there but force.
But actually most of what you say can be solved through force...not a bit of bombing here and there but force. you honestly think every problem in the middle east and between supposed allies can actually be solved simply by force? |
|
johnnyh
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 4,492
๐๐ป 2,102
March 2011
|
Isis
Oct 10, 2014 9:50:00 GMT 1
Isis, by johnnyh on Oct 10, 2014 9:50:00 GMT 1, No but it does tend to bring people to the table so that talks happen....eg Yugoslavia, Bosnia etc
Doing nothing but wishing people were nicer to each other just does not work. As I say happy to listen to your solutions but we are 6 pages in not one has been put forward.
Who do you want ISIS etc to talk to? Why would they?
No but it does tend to bring people to the table so that talks happen....eg Yugoslavia, Bosnia etc
Doing nothing but wishing people were nicer to each other just does not work. As I say happy to listen to your solutions but we are 6 pages in not one has been put forward.
Who do you want ISIS etc to talk to? Why would they?
|
|
jonb
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 82
๐๐ป 90
July 2014
|
Isis
Oct 10, 2014 9:54:41 GMT 1
Isis, by jonb on Oct 10, 2014 9:54:41 GMT 1, Ps if you think that's what war looks like you are very much mistaken
Ps if you think that's what war looks like you are very much mistaken I do not understand this comment please elaborate? |
|
Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
|
Isis
Oct 10, 2014 10:12:50 GMT 1
|
|
|
|
johnnyh
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 4,492
๐๐ป 2,102
March 2011
|
Isis
Oct 10, 2014 10:26:05 GMT 1
Isis, by johnnyh on Oct 10, 2014 10:26:05 GMT 1, BB I can sign them for you if it helps!!
Jonb not sure what needs explaining seems pretty straight forward to me
Think you should be putting forward some actions you would take.....
BB I can sign them for you if it helps!!
Jonb not sure what needs explaining seems pretty straight forward to me
Think you should be putting forward some actions you would take.....
|
|
jonb
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 82
๐๐ป 90
July 2014
|
Isis
Oct 10, 2014 10:55:07 GMT 1
Isis, by jonb on Oct 10, 2014 10:55:07 GMT 1, Identify who the enemy is, would be a good start, what are we fighting for might be another starting point.
It is not straightforward why do you reject Goya's images of war, do you consider them too tame or too strong? Or is there another reason? Have just looked at one of the 82 prints and thought that does not some war up, go on tell me.
Identify who the enemy is, would be a good start, what are we fighting for might be another starting point.
It is not straightforward why do you reject Goya's images of war, do you consider them too tame or too strong? Or is there another reason? Have just looked at one of the 82 prints and thought that does not some war up, go on tell me.
|
|
johnnyh
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 4,492
๐๐ป 2,102
March 2011
|
Isis
Oct 10, 2014 12:08:42 GMT 1
via mobile
Isis, by johnnyh on Oct 10, 2014 12:08:42 GMT 1, Well more people have died while you pontificate jonb
It's an Isis thread so let's start there....what you going to do..while they take out the Kurds
The Goya images are old, black and white reflections and imply but in no way show the reality and true brutality.
Well more people have died while you pontificate jonb
It's an Isis thread so let's start there....what you going to do..while they take out the Kurds
The Goya images are old, black and white reflections and imply but in no way show the reality and true brutality.
|
|
jonb
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 82
๐๐ป 90
July 2014
|
Isis
Oct 10, 2014 12:36:47 GMT 1
Isis, by jonb on Oct 10, 2014 12:36:47 GMT 1, The Turkish government are saying that people are dying because of the bombing, They say Assad is using the relief from the lessening of attacks on his forces by ISIS to redirect his forces to attack 'moderate Arabs'.
So much for action without thought.
On Goya; so much for art then.
The Turkish government are saying that people are dying because of the bombing, They say Assad is using the relief from the lessening of attacks on his forces by ISIS to redirect his forces to attack 'moderate Arabs'.
So much for action without thought.
On Goya; so much for art then.
|
|
Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
|
Isis
Oct 13, 2014 12:21:27 GMT 1
|
|
