lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Banksy NYC Auction - Forum Auctions, by lee3 on Dec 10, 2017 18:35:18 GMT 1, I know the premise of low estimates create interest and involvement. What happens with high estimates? Does that detract from people being involved? I just cant wrap my head around that orange Choose Your Weapon estimate. If it comes in much lower or doesnt reach a reserve, does this blow up in their face as supposed banksy experts? It's impossible to say with any certainty. A high estimate might suggest that the house wanted the piece and bowed to the consignor with a hefty reserve. That or the house did a favor for a friend or perhaps to win other consignments. There are countless reasons why a house might reach on any individual lot at any time and one would need to be privy to the private deal of each lot to truly understand. Hell, the house might have hated negotiation with this particular consignment and agreed to accept it with the high reserve and held steadfast to any buy-in fees to the consignor should it fail to hammer which would in effect stick it to them. Regardless, it's rare as you noted because the knee jerk reaction is to question the house and generally the primary houses avoid such a scenario.
I know the premise of low estimates create interest and involvement. What happens with high estimates? Does that detract from people being involved? I just cant wrap my head around that orange Choose Your Weapon estimate. If it comes in much lower or doesnt reach a reserve, does this blow up in their face as supposed banksy experts? It's impossible to say with any certainty. A high estimate might suggest that the house wanted the piece and bowed to the consignor with a hefty reserve. That or the house did a favor for a friend or perhaps to win other consignments. There are countless reasons why a house might reach on any individual lot at any time and one would need to be privy to the private deal of each lot to truly understand. Hell, the house might have hated negotiation with this particular consignment and agreed to accept it with the high reserve and held steadfast to any buy-in fees to the consignor should it fail to hammer which would in effect stick it to them. Regardless, it's rare as you noted because the knee jerk reaction is to question the house and generally the primary houses avoid such a scenario.
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Banksy Bomb Hugger Print, by lee3 on Dec 10, 2017 18:27:30 GMT 1, Great read, Cside. Sept '06 was Barely Legal which served as a launching pad price wise and would fit in well with your memory no matter how many rapids passed under the bridge. Have a grand time visiting Walled Off.
Great read, Cside. Sept '06 was Barely Legal which served as a launching pad price wise and would fit in well with your memory no matter how many rapids passed under the bridge. Have a grand time visiting Walled Off.
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Banksy โข Sale Ends Today, by lee3 on Nov 25, 2017 2:46:39 GMT 1, This image is 10 years old, i am guessing the discussion about meaning was done back then. Perhaps someone can find the thread but i bet you ยฃ10 its exactly the same patter though about prices. A few have rose tinted glasses to what it was like here akin like some geriatric, self righteous art expert. From my vantage point there was more educated passion on average here 10 years ago unless I'm confusing time and the exodus to wallkandy hastened from heavy banning had already begun by that point. There were intelligent and dedicated collectors whose voices were silenced both reasonably and unreasonably at times. An unintended consequence of which results in muted and narrowed discussion with fewer dissenting opinions that change anyone's mind or open new doors of perception. It's certainly not the fault of the artists discussed but it's hardly the same as it ever was at this site.
I don't consider sale ends to be among the best work in his cannon visually as I often struggle with religious references in art. However, it's certainly timely and no denying the meaning is more true today on a number of levels of interpretation than when it was first released. That adds weight of impact to the image that I enjoy.
This image is 10 years old, i am guessing the discussion about meaning was done back then. Perhaps someone can find the thread but i bet you ยฃ10 its exactly the same patter though about prices. A few have rose tinted glasses to what it was like here akin like some geriatric, self righteous art expert. From my vantage point there was more educated passion on average here 10 years ago unless I'm confusing time and the exodus to wallkandy hastened from heavy banning had already begun by that point. There were intelligent and dedicated collectors whose voices were silenced both reasonably and unreasonably at times. An unintended consequence of which results in muted and narrowed discussion with fewer dissenting opinions that change anyone's mind or open new doors of perception. It's certainly not the fault of the artists discussed but it's hardly the same as it ever was at this site. I don't consider sale ends to be among the best work in his cannon visually as I often struggle with religious references in art. However, it's certainly timely and no denying the meaning is more true today on a number of levels of interpretation than when it was first released. That adds weight of impact to the image that I enjoy.
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Banksy โข Sale Ends Today, by lee3 on Nov 21, 2017 18:05:14 GMT 1, Can someone offer some advice on framing this please? It will be the first print I've gone all out to conserve from the start, so would appreciate some pointers. I'd like to have it so there's no mount, to show off the deckled bottom and to hopefully prevent uneven fading. Any recommendations gratefully received I would go black frame (gallery style), floated on a black mount, with matching red spacer (same red as the sale sign on the print), museum glass and conversation spec. Great minds, I hope. I was at the framers yesterday pretty much copied your way of thinking. I don't see how you matte these, they have to be floated. Black frame only worked for me too and I tried a red spacer but my eyes focused on the red rectangle spacer as opposed to the print so I just went black frame with slight red polished hints in it leaving the print floated on black mount and museum glass.
Can someone offer some advice on framing this please? It will be the first print I've gone all out to conserve from the start, so would appreciate some pointers. I'd like to have it so there's no mount, to show off the deckled bottom and to hopefully prevent uneven fading. Any recommendations gratefully received I would go black frame (gallery style), floated on a black mount, with matching red spacer (same red as the sale sign on the print), museum glass and conversation spec. Great minds, I hope. I was at the framers yesterday pretty much copied your way of thinking. I don't see how you matte these, they have to be floated. Black frame only worked for me too and I tried a red spacer but my eyes focused on the red rectangle spacer as opposed to the print so I just went black frame with slight red polished hints in it leaving the print floated on black mount and museum glass.
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Banksy Artwork, VALUATION, by lee3 on Nov 21, 2017 16:54:19 GMT 1, This auction is technically after the season which closes in NYC the previous week. They know this lot will go higher but best to have a teaser range to generate interest not only in this specific lot, but also the wider auction at a point in time that most eyes simply aren't paying any attention whatsoever. The fact that it's on cardboard with a few fold lines isn't doing it any favors either from Sotheby's perspective so if I put myself in their shoes i would be conservative estimate wise too. I'm not so sure that 100 would be a low estimate; gun to my head I would guess it sells between 100-150. I would be stunned if it did 200+ for all of the reasons above.
ยฃ156k all in.
Given the image, size, condition and provenance I think someone got that at a very good price. Probably ยฃ30/40k light of what I expected.
I guess the medium of cardboard is not for everyone.
It is for me.......
Mines a bit smaller at 45" x 42".
Nice chucker, sir. Looking over the rest of the results, they look fairly uninspiring with few fireworks. The art market has gone to sleep as it always does after the NY sales through the end of January and most simply aren't paying attention unlike last week. 2 rare prints for this artist or a large, hulking monkey in a foreign language on cardboard. I know which I prefer. To be honest, I went to bed last night expecting the monkey to do more given the result earlier in the day of the edition 10 heavy weaponry canvas at nearly $170k.
This auction is technically after the season which closes in NYC the previous week. They know this lot will go higher but best to have a teaser range to generate interest not only in this specific lot, but also the wider auction at a point in time that most eyes simply aren't paying any attention whatsoever. The fact that it's on cardboard with a few fold lines isn't doing it any favors either from Sotheby's perspective so if I put myself in their shoes i would be conservative estimate wise too. I'm not so sure that 100 would be a low estimate; gun to my head I would guess it sells between 100-150. I would be stunned if it did 200+ for all of the reasons above.
ยฃ156k all in.
Given the image, size, condition and provenance I think someone got that at a very good price. Probably ยฃ30/40k light of what I expected.
I guess the medium of cardboard is not for everyone.
It is for me.......
Mines a bit smaller at 45" x 42".
Nice chucker, sir. Looking over the rest of the results, they look fairly uninspiring with few fireworks. The art market has gone to sleep as it always does after the NY sales through the end of January and most simply aren't paying attention unlike last week. 2 rare prints for this artist or a large, hulking monkey in a foreign language on cardboard. I know which I prefer. To be honest, I went to bed last night expecting the monkey to do more given the result earlier in the day of the edition 10 heavy weaponry canvas at nearly $170k.
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Auction Result Databases, by lee3 on Nov 4, 2017 0:20:55 GMT 1, I use Artnet as well and it is expensive at 10 searches per month plus additional fees if you go over. That being said, one search encompasses the last 100 auction results for the artist... If you search an additional 100 results (last 200) that counts as 2 searches out of 10 for the month. Just something to be aware of. You can pay more for about 30 searches a month which is the plan I utilize or still more for unlimited searches. Pricey for sure, but the information learned has been worth every penny from my experience. I've also gotten into the habit of downloading most of my searches in pdf form for future reference plus I save many of the searches in their cloud database. It's fascinating to go back and looks at searches from 10+ years ago as most of those are not in that first 100 you alluded to above anymore. It's a wonderful resource.
I use Artnet as well and it is expensive at 10 searches per month plus additional fees if you go over. That being said, one search encompasses the last 100 auction results for the artist... If you search an additional 100 results (last 200) that counts as 2 searches out of 10 for the month. Just something to be aware of. You can pay more for about 30 searches a month which is the plan I utilize or still more for unlimited searches. Pricey for sure, but the information learned has been worth every penny from my experience. I've also gotten into the habit of downloading most of my searches in pdf form for future reference plus I save many of the searches in their cloud database. It's fascinating to go back and looks at searches from 10+ years ago as most of those are not in that first 100 you alluded to above anymore. It's a wonderful resource.
|
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
POW CLOSING DOWN - SALE ENDS 31ST DECEMBER 2017, by lee3 on Nov 1, 2017 17:12:47 GMT 1, Loving the Banksy peace dove colouring book pages handed out to the children at the street party: While it's "nice", I find it a bit distasteful involving children in this whole thing. It would be much better if adults were used that understood the issues, and the kids were given the type of party or treat that might actually like. Letisss, no disrespect intended your way but I don't think those kids are enjoying the kind of childhood you and I and most everyone else reading this enjoyed. They are involved daily through no choice of their own and they understand the issues in a manner that you and I do not. We played with toy guns and sticks using our imagination at that age. They play with them emulating their older brothers and sisters in a never ending conflict from their perspective. A bit of coloring and cake isn't going to make a dent in the damage done but it's probably nice for a change even with the sinister surroundings.
Loving the Banksy peace dove colouring book pages handed out to the children at the street party: While it's "nice", I find it a bit distasteful involving children in this whole thing. It would be much better if adults were used that understood the issues, and the kids were given the type of party or treat that might actually like. Letisss, no disrespect intended your way but I don't think those kids are enjoying the kind of childhood you and I and most everyone else reading this enjoyed. They are involved daily through no choice of their own and they understand the issues in a manner that you and I do not. We played with toy guns and sticks using our imagination at that age. They play with them emulating their older brothers and sisters in a never ending conflict from their perspective. A bit of coloring and cake isn't going to make a dent in the damage done but it's probably nice for a change even with the sinister surroundings.
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Price of framing!!!!, by lee3 on Oct 30, 2017 19:12:24 GMT 1, For me, and I don't know if this is logical, I've always considered a work framed from gallery or artist as 'as issued'. The framing is 'right', as that is what the artist/gallery intended and the paperwork from the gallery shows it was sold already framed. May not end up being logical, but for now it helps me sleep at night. Lol. The above position is reasonable but also merits qualification. What I've found is that many galleries regularly cut corners and make real compromises on framing. This is to keep their own costs down, to make the art more financially attractive to buyers (many of whom will be relatively ignorant when it comes to framing), and because galleries know framing tastes are so personal that a percentage of buyers will always reframe anyway. It's one reason you'll often encounter the ridiculous scenario (at least to my mind) of expensive pieces displayed behind regular glass. When these are then shown in brightly-lit venues like art fairs, viewers can end up seeing their own reflections โ and everything else behind them โ just as much as the art itself. For an art enthusiast, it's irritating. And for an art photographer, it's infuriating. ______________ If money were of no concern to galleries and artists, I believe the framing choices they'd make would in many cases be different. Especially from an archival perspective, and for works that don't fall within the high-end category. So it is arguable that a better-quality framing job could also be "right" where the artist or gallery is likely to have made a similar choice if they'd been financially freer to do so. I have no problem swapping out glass in those instances. If the COA reads framed by the artist, then leave the frame as is. Similarly, I have stuff purchased through Gagosian that was "framed by the artist" (late career artist) and like you, I loathe reflections. I take those to the framer and swap out the plexi in favor of museum glass and it's still framed by the artist (at least to me) and merely improved upon by the collector for their own and others enjoyment. Even when galleries and artist alike are free to do whatever they want, it's not necessarily best for viewing but rather protection of the art work. UV plex is never going to shatter which is in the art's best interest from one point of view (protection) but it's awful for my enjoyment compared with museum glass. One man's trash I guess.
Before the Picasso museum in Paris had its most recent renovation, all of the canvases were there uncovered which made connecting with the works delightful and one could walk among the sculptures in the garden though touching was frowned upon save for certain tours. Fast forward 20 years and the garden is gone, the sculptures inside and most of the work is behind plexi now to preserve for generations to come. It's not an improvement to my eyes but I understand the reasoning as the value has increased exponentially.
For me, and I don't know if this is logical, I've always considered a work framed from gallery or artist as 'as issued'. The framing is 'right', as that is what the artist/gallery intended and the paperwork from the gallery shows it was sold already framed. May not end up being logical, but for now it helps me sleep at night. Lol. The above position is reasonable but also merits qualification. What I've found is that many galleries regularly cut corners and make real compromises on framing. This is to keep their own costs down, to make the art more financially attractive to buyers (many of whom will be relatively ignorant when it comes to framing), and because galleries know framing tastes are so personal that a percentage of buyers will always reframe anyway. It's one reason you'll often encounter the ridiculous scenario (at least to my mind) of expensive pieces displayed behind regular glass. When these are then shown in brightly-lit venues like art fairs, viewers can end up seeing their own reflections โ and everything else behind them โ just as much as the art itself. For an art enthusiast, it's irritating. And for an art photographer, it's infuriating. ______________ If money were of no concern to galleries and artists, I believe the framing choices they'd make would in many cases be different. Especially from an archival perspective, and for works that don't fall within the high-end category. So it is arguable that a better-quality framing job could also be "right" where the artist or gallery is likely to have made a similar choice if they'd been financially freer to do so. I have no problem swapping out glass in those instances. If the COA reads framed by the artist, then leave the frame as is. Similarly, I have stuff purchased through Gagosian that was "framed by the artist" (late career artist) and like you, I loathe reflections. I take those to the framer and swap out the plexi in favor of museum glass and it's still framed by the artist (at least to me) and merely improved upon by the collector for their own and others enjoyment. Even when galleries and artist alike are free to do whatever they want, it's not necessarily best for viewing but rather protection of the art work. UV plex is never going to shatter which is in the art's best interest from one point of view (protection) but it's awful for my enjoyment compared with museum glass. One man's trash I guess. Before the Picasso museum in Paris had its most recent renovation, all of the canvases were there uncovered which made connecting with the works delightful and one could walk among the sculptures in the garden though touching was frowned upon save for certain tours. Fast forward 20 years and the garden is gone, the sculptures inside and most of the work is behind plexi now to preserve for generations to come. It's not an improvement to my eyes but I understand the reasoning as the value has increased exponentially.
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Banksy Artwork, VALUATION, by lee3 on Oct 25, 2017 22:54:21 GMT 1, Given the size, subject and the fact it has PC why would the estimate be so low. Surely a low estimate would be ยฃ100k never mind ยฃ30k. This defies even the logic of tempting buyers in. Surely the seller is taking a unnecessary risk.
This auction is technically after the season which closes in NYC the previous week. They know this lot will go higher but best to have a teaser range to generate interest not only in this specific lot, but also the wider auction at a point in time that most eyes simply aren't paying any attention whatsoever. The fact that it's on cardboard with a few fold lines isn't doing it any favors either from Sotheby's perspective so if I put myself in their shoes i would be conservative estimate wise too. I'm not so sure that 100 would be a low estimate; gun to my head I would guess it sells between 100-150. I would be stunned if it did 200+ for all of the reasons above.
Given the size, subject and the fact it has PC why would the estimate be so low. Surely a low estimate would be ยฃ100k never mind ยฃ30k. This defies even the logic of tempting buyers in. Surely the seller is taking a unnecessary risk.
This auction is technically after the season which closes in NYC the previous week. They know this lot will go higher but best to have a teaser range to generate interest not only in this specific lot, but also the wider auction at a point in time that most eyes simply aren't paying any attention whatsoever. The fact that it's on cardboard with a few fold lines isn't doing it any favors either from Sotheby's perspective so if I put myself in their shoes i would be conservative estimate wise too. I'm not so sure that 100 would be a low estimate; gun to my head I would guess it sells between 100-150. I would be stunned if it did 200+ for all of the reasons above.
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Julien's to Auction Street Invaders, Banksy, by lee3 on Oct 25, 2017 18:22:22 GMT 1, Met:
>>>My own view however is that a few high-profile, high-value sales of works later discovered to be indisputable forgeries may be more effective at undermining and destabilising whatever market still exists for unauthenticated works attributed to Banksy<<<<
In my mind, anything without a COA is the equivalent of a forgery which is precisely the position the vast majority of potential buyers side on. That's why these tier 4 or grade F auction houses are happy to accept a "Vermin" authenticated street piece whether the artist painted it or not. The primary houses would never tarnish their names steeping to that level so if one buys at auction, make sure you do so at Bonhams, Phillips, Sotheby's and Christie's.
Eventually it becomes a buyer beware scenario and if one is foolish enough to shop at a house that preys upon its customers so be it. We can't stop everyone who decides to step into the street without looking both ways either (i did that as a moronic 11 year old and the result taught me a fine lesson). Long winded point being I don't believe education is the answer at that level of stupidity and some of us need to learn the hard way.
Met:
>>>My own view however is that a few high-profile, high-value sales of works later discovered to be indisputable forgeries may be more effective at undermining and destabilising whatever market still exists for unauthenticated works attributed to Banksy<<<<
In my mind, anything without a COA is the equivalent of a forgery which is precisely the position the vast majority of potential buyers side on. That's why these tier 4 or grade F auction houses are happy to accept a "Vermin" authenticated street piece whether the artist painted it or not. The primary houses would never tarnish their names steeping to that level so if one buys at auction, make sure you do so at Bonhams, Phillips, Sotheby's and Christie's.
Eventually it becomes a buyer beware scenario and if one is foolish enough to shop at a house that preys upon its customers so be it. We can't stop everyone who decides to step into the street without looking both ways either (i did that as a moronic 11 year old and the result taught me a fine lesson). Long winded point being I don't believe education is the answer at that level of stupidity and some of us need to learn the hard way.
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Andy Warhol ๐บ๐ธ Real or Fake? โข Sunday B. Morning Print, by lee3 on Oct 24, 2017 20:02:35 GMT 1, This thread has taken on a life of its own and some of the thoughts above are exactly what have been have been bouncing around in my head for over a decade now. i'll side step the money question portion of the thread and just give 2 cents about logic and artistic enjoyment on the wall as these two artists are the ones that have spoken the loudest to to my wife and I both (them and yves klein). The generous folks that mentored us in the art pursuit 20 years ago were warhol focused and it was wonderful learning from them which in turn made us want to collect warhol. But due to affordability issues, we could only acquire grade D & F works comparatively with their collections yet it us delighted for about 10 years. Somewhere in '05/'06 our level of satisfaction with those works on the wall declined as we felt like that work was before our time as others have stated above (although we're both children of the early 70s) but before our eyes were opened to art anyway.
I fondly recall conversations over wine in the evening and eventually concluding that we wanted the artist of our time on the wall. It was a natural and easy decision in hindsight to trade out the works from warhol that weren't as captivating as they once seemed for Banksy and to this day we are both much happier with the works on the wall from what we believe to be the artist of our day. One family's evolution so take it for what it's worth.
Unrelated side note, we watched a wonderful documentary last night called Tim's Vermeer that I'm sure many of you have seen but I'm often late to the party. Great story about an inventor who was influenced by the words of Hockney to dig deeper into Vermeer's oeuvre which resulted in a 5 year all consuming pursuit. I was reading reviews today and see that the critic Jonathan Jones (hater of all things Banksy) did not agree with the conclusions so you know that Tim Jenison is most likely correct. If you haven't seen it, definitely worth your time.
This thread has taken on a life of its own and some of the thoughts above are exactly what have been have been bouncing around in my head for over a decade now. i'll side step the money question portion of the thread and just give 2 cents about logic and artistic enjoyment on the wall as these two artists are the ones that have spoken the loudest to to my wife and I both (them and yves klein). The generous folks that mentored us in the art pursuit 20 years ago were warhol focused and it was wonderful learning from them which in turn made us want to collect warhol. But due to affordability issues, we could only acquire grade D & F works comparatively with their collections yet it us delighted for about 10 years. Somewhere in '05/'06 our level of satisfaction with those works on the wall declined as we felt like that work was before our time as others have stated above (although we're both children of the early 70s) but before our eyes were opened to art anyway.
I fondly recall conversations over wine in the evening and eventually concluding that we wanted the artist of our time on the wall. It was a natural and easy decision in hindsight to trade out the works from warhol that weren't as captivating as they once seemed for Banksy and to this day we are both much happier with the works on the wall from what we believe to be the artist of our day. One family's evolution so take it for what it's worth.
Unrelated side note, we watched a wonderful documentary last night called Tim's Vermeer that I'm sure many of you have seen but I'm often late to the party. Great story about an inventor who was influenced by the words of Hockney to dig deeper into Vermeer's oeuvre which resulted in a 5 year all consuming pursuit. I was reading reviews today and see that the critic Jonathan Jones (hater of all things Banksy) did not agree with the conclusions so you know that Tim Jenison is most likely correct. If you haven't seen it, definitely worth your time.
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Banksy โข Sale Ends Today, by lee3 on Oct 22, 2017 18:32:07 GMT 1, mose "way off his peak"? Using Google trends (which I would never use) is word specific. So 'banksy' and 'Banksy street art' give different (higher) results. You are also forgetting that people are more likely to type in specific words, so a search for Banksys work may not even include the word 'banksy' it may be an abbreviation of one of his prints, street pieces or 'exit through the gift shop' for example. Your data of 'banksy' shown only shows till April '16, and he's only gone and built a hotel since then, which, when put into this google trends thingy 'walled off hotel' would 'match your Banksy peak @2014 at 100 (whatever that means) so defo not passed peak. If this google trends is to be true, I had a play-around on it, then mr brainwash is killing it whilst Harland Miller is at rock bottom. Google trends data on Banksy does go until present day, showing that he is 14% of what he was at peak(comparing that term to itself over time since 2004). You didn't follow the graph itself and just stopped at the last label. The graph continues past that label. And on your last statement, I don't see how you are getting that. Google trends shows that Mr. Brainwash activity is 4% of what it was at his peak as of this month. 100 means the term's peak. That is 100% of it's all-time high. Every other number assigned is what percentage of that peak a term was at at any specific time. That information was available on the Google Trend page. "Numbers represent search interest relative to the highest point on the chart for the given region and time. A value of 100 is the peak popularity for the term. A value of 50 means that the term is half as popular. Likewise a score of 0 means the term was less than 1% as popular as the peak." But, more importantly if you can, please do provide some data pointing to trends in Banksy's popularity, as of right now, we are kinda relying on 'I think' here which is very dangerous in a potential echo chamber. Mose, (sorry to go backwards in this thread but i'm way off compared with most peoples time zones here), I'm reading this and enjoying some coffee and a couple things worth mentioning. That 100 peak in your google charts is October of '13. In October of '13 Banksy was doing his residency and revealing a new piece every day of that month in NYC. I think it's fair to suggest that searches with his name in google would be far higher than average during that one month. Further, I don't believe you can draw much of any conclusion from that graph except that each of those search peaks on that chart coincide precisely with activity from the artist (sep '06 barely legal, june '09 museum, oct '10 exit thru, feb '11 oscars, oct '13 residency, oct '14 hitting the streets and aug '15 dismaland).
As for popularity measures for whatever they are worth, it's interesting for me to look at the number of # references at a simple site like instagram. When you search high brow artists, you'll have comparatively fewer references than popular ones for obvious reasons. Last time I looked he trailed only picasso on that site and was double that of warhol or dali. Ruscha and Richter will give you almost nothing yet kaws is on par with Warhol and as far as I know only Banksy and Picasso having over a million references a piece. It's a curiosity and nothing more but one that I find interesting.
edit: here is the link to the chart mose posted previously: trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=banksy
mose "way off his peak"? Using Google trends (which I would never use) is word specific. So 'banksy' and 'Banksy street art' give different (higher) results. You are also forgetting that people are more likely to type in specific words, so a search for Banksys work may not even include the word 'banksy' it may be an abbreviation of one of his prints, street pieces or 'exit through the gift shop' for example. Your data of 'banksy' shown only shows till April '16, and he's only gone and built a hotel since then, which, when put into this google trends thingy 'walled off hotel' would 'match your Banksy peak @2014 at 100 (whatever that means) so defo not passed peak. If this google trends is to be true, I had a play-around on it, then mr brainwash is killing it whilst Harland Miller is at rock bottom. Google trends data on Banksy does go until present day, showing that he is 14% of what he was at peak(comparing that term to itself over time since 2004). You didn't follow the graph itself and just stopped at the last label. The graph continues past that label. And on your last statement, I don't see how you are getting that. Google trends shows that Mr. Brainwash activity is 4% of what it was at his peak as of this month. 100 means the term's peak. That is 100% of it's all-time high. Every other number assigned is what percentage of that peak a term was at at any specific time. That information was available on the Google Trend page. "Numbers represent search interest relative to the highest point on the chart for the given region and time. A value of 100 is the peak popularity for the term. A value of 50 means that the term is half as popular. Likewise a score of 0 means the term was less than 1% as popular as the peak." But, more importantly if you can, please do provide some data pointing to trends in Banksy's popularity, as of right now, we are kinda relying on 'I think' here which is very dangerous in a potential echo chamber. Mose, (sorry to go backwards in this thread but i'm way off compared with most peoples time zones here), I'm reading this and enjoying some coffee and a couple things worth mentioning. That 100 peak in your google charts is October of '13. In October of '13 Banksy was doing his residency and revealing a new piece every day of that month in NYC. I think it's fair to suggest that searches with his name in google would be far higher than average during that one month. Further, I don't believe you can draw much of any conclusion from that graph except that each of those search peaks on that chart coincide precisely with activity from the artist (sep '06 barely legal, june '09 museum, oct '10 exit thru, feb '11 oscars, oct '13 residency, oct '14 hitting the streets and aug '15 dismaland). As for popularity measures for whatever they are worth, it's interesting for me to look at the number of # references at a simple site like instagram. When you search high brow artists, you'll have comparatively fewer references than popular ones for obvious reasons. Last time I looked he trailed only picasso on that site and was double that of warhol or dali. Ruscha and Richter will give you almost nothing yet kaws is on par with Warhol and as far as I know only Banksy and Picasso having over a million references a piece. It's a curiosity and nothing more but one that I find interesting. edit: here is the link to the chart mose posted previously: trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=banksy
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Julien's to Auction Street Invaders, Banksy, by lee3 on Oct 21, 2017 18:01:18 GMT 1, >>>In my opinion, Julien's Auctions is not a "good house" <<<
Met, i concur. Any house that preys on potential customers is not a good house.
>>>In this respect, I was actually pleased Drill Rat looks to have found a buyer last week for $57,600.<<<
Given the previous point, I have no idea why you would believe Julien's when they tell you something purportedly sold for $57k. Better to dismiss these results as fabricated like the lot itself as this nonsense merely helps their scheme in the future.
>>>In my opinion, Julien's Auctions is not a "good house" <<<
Met, i concur. Any house that preys on potential customers is not a good house.
>>>In this respect, I was actually pleased Drill Rat looks to have found a buyer last week for $57,600.<<<
Given the previous point, I have no idea why you would believe Julien's when they tell you something purportedly sold for $57k. Better to dismiss these results as fabricated like the lot itself as this nonsense merely helps their scheme in the future.
|
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
POW CLOSING DOWN - SALE ENDS 31ST DECEMBER 2017, by lee3 on Oct 19, 2017 4:41:31 GMT 1, Great stroll down memory lane there Fuzzed- thanks kindly for your reminder post. It's all gotten so big that it boggles the mind and yet you could feel it back then (rereading it today) that it we were all watching something explosive. Sad to see pow go but they reached the no good deed goes unpunished level so many years ago. Selfless planning and events that mesmerized us all. And with that stable of artists, they delivered the rest of us more childlike Christmas morning feelings than we deserved. They'll be missed.
Great stroll down memory lane there Fuzzed- thanks kindly for your reminder post. It's all gotten so big that it boggles the mind and yet you could feel it back then (rereading it today) that it we were all watching something explosive. Sad to see pow go but they reached the no good deed goes unpunished level so many years ago. Selfless planning and events that mesmerized us all. And with that stable of artists, they delivered the rest of us more childlike Christmas morning feelings than we deserved. They'll be missed.
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Andy Warhol ๐บ๐ธ Real or Fake? โข Sunday B. Morning Print, by lee3 on Oct 8, 2017 4:02:40 GMT 1, I love both of those artists and have studied them deeply. The only point I wish to add to correct some of the information above is that there are dozens and dozens of original Warhol images available on canvases for $100k or less. Many of the toys, most of the '85 ad images (be a somebody with a body, wholesome and delicious hamburger, keys, beatle boots, etc in 20x16 inch sizes). You could even get an iconic '65 flowers image in a tiny size for that price. Piss/oxidation paintings, camouflage, lobsters and crabs, shadows, champagne glasses/committee 2k, poinsettias, nudes/ladies and gentlemen, gems, the list goes on and on. You will even find some of the least desirable portrait paintings at auction for under $100k and those are usually 100 cm/sq. For my eyes, there truly are some very nice paintings in that price range for Warhol. I've long been a sucker for the wholesome and delicious hamburgers (never owned one) and there was one on yellow this week at christie's or sotheby's that sold for ~$80k which is where they've traded for 10-15 years now. It may be worth looking into for some, good luck.
I love both of those artists and have studied them deeply. The only point I wish to add to correct some of the information above is that there are dozens and dozens of original Warhol images available on canvases for $100k or less. Many of the toys, most of the '85 ad images (be a somebody with a body, wholesome and delicious hamburger, keys, beatle boots, etc in 20x16 inch sizes). You could even get an iconic '65 flowers image in a tiny size for that price. Piss/oxidation paintings, camouflage, lobsters and crabs, shadows, champagne glasses/committee 2k, poinsettias, nudes/ladies and gentlemen, gems, the list goes on and on. You will even find some of the least desirable portrait paintings at auction for under $100k and those are usually 100 cm/sq. For my eyes, there truly are some very nice paintings in that price range for Warhol. I've long been a sucker for the wholesome and delicious hamburgers (never owned one) and there was one on yellow this week at christie's or sotheby's that sold for ~$80k which is where they've traded for 10-15 years now. It may be worth looking into for some, good luck.
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Banksy, Basquiat and the Barbican, by lee3 on Sept 18, 2017 3:07:48 GMT 1, 9 hours and the paint is still wet? These pieces continue to confuse! I'd guess those crowns are oil stick in the same manner that Basquiat often painted them back in his day and if so, one will be able to rub that off the wall for some time. Banksy has utilized oil stick in the past with other street works too. He saluted similar logic with Choose Your Weapon where the dog walker is spray paint stencil while the dog was hand painted with sumi ink and dark acrylic just as Haring painted them in his day.
9 hours and the paint is still wet? These pieces continue to confuse! I'd guess those crowns are oil stick in the same manner that Basquiat often painted them back in his day and if so, one will be able to rub that off the wall for some time. Banksy has utilized oil stick in the past with other street works too. He saluted similar logic with Choose Your Weapon where the dog walker is spray paint stencil while the dog was hand painted with sumi ink and dark acrylic just as Haring painted them in his day.
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Framers in SAN FRANCISCO ๐บ๐ฒ Who do you Recommend?, by lee3 on Sept 13, 2017 3:40:23 GMT 1, Lee - I hope you've been well and a pleasure to see you posting again. I almost always learn something from your input. That's lovely to read, thank you. We have been well thanks, and hope you have too. We relocated to hawaii a day before that shocking election outcome last year and really digging it here. But, with a family to manage, exploring a new way of life and moving both in and out of a rental house into a permanent home (been moving for nearly a month now which is a younger man's sport) we've been distracted albeit in a nice way. Alls well though thanks and hope to have more spare time going forward. I hope those of you in SF that have the means have considered hitting up walled off. It's a 15 hour direct flight to and from which was fairly easy all things considered and an eye opening experience. Apologies for diverting the thread...
Lee - I hope you've been well and a pleasure to see you posting again. I almost always learn something from your input. That's lovely to read, thank you. We have been well thanks, and hope you have too. We relocated to hawaii a day before that shocking election outcome last year and really digging it here. But, with a family to manage, exploring a new way of life and moving both in and out of a rental house into a permanent home (been moving for nearly a month now which is a younger man's sport) we've been distracted albeit in a nice way. Alls well though thanks and hope to have more spare time going forward. I hope those of you in SF that have the means have considered hitting up walled off. It's a 15 hour direct flight to and from which was fairly easy all things considered and an eye opening experience. Apologies for diverting the thread...
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Framers in SAN FRANCISCO ๐บ๐ฒ Who do you Recommend?, by lee3 on Sept 13, 2017 3:13:01 GMT 1, It's worth checking up in marin about 10 mins over the GG in tiburon with Tom Craig at Dimitroff's. I lived in town for nearly 20 years (my family left town last november) and must have framed 75-100 works with his help over the years. His work was outstanding and there was a lot of stuff I went overboard and I never approached the prices you're suggesting above. Large 4x3 foot museum glass, corner-less hand made Roma frames were ~$4k from memory and that was for spare no expense, over the top framing. Most of the stuff was knockout work, framed for a fraction of the above and always to archival with museum glass. He's got an eye that I loved and a wonderful taste in art and music. Just a perfect gent and a dear friend that I highly recommend. He's revered in the grateful dead community with a strong sense of family and simply my kind of guy. Sincere and never going to overcharge and a very talented tradesman. If you happen to stop in please tell him I said hello. Good luck
It's worth checking up in marin about 10 mins over the GG in tiburon with Tom Craig at Dimitroff's. I lived in town for nearly 20 years (my family left town last november) and must have framed 75-100 works with his help over the years. His work was outstanding and there was a lot of stuff I went overboard and I never approached the prices you're suggesting above. Large 4x3 foot museum glass, corner-less hand made Roma frames were ~$4k from memory and that was for spare no expense, over the top framing. Most of the stuff was knockout work, framed for a fraction of the above and always to archival with museum glass. He's got an eye that I loved and a wonderful taste in art and music. Just a perfect gent and a dear friend that I highly recommend. He's revered in the grateful dead community with a strong sense of family and simply my kind of guy. Sincere and never going to overcharge and a very talented tradesman. If you happen to stop in please tell him I said hello. Good luck
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Give it a rest..., by lee3 on Sept 1, 2017 19:04:44 GMT 1, This is why Stik is popular. He's stripped out all this nonsense people are hating. I'm surprised no one has mentioned balaclava's Balaclava a bit of an icon for Banksy, no? Personally, I'm drawn to that imagery across his oeuvre.
This is why Stik is popular. He's stripped out all this nonsense people are hating. I'm surprised no one has mentioned balaclava's Balaclava a bit of an icon for Banksy, no? Personally, I'm drawn to that imagery across his oeuvre.
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel โ
โ
โ
, by lee3 on Jul 28, 2017 15:42:40 GMT 1, Ha ha, thx that was mild in the grand scheme but a first for me and it made my eyes cry like a little child. My first reaction was to wipe my eyes and at the same time I hear my tour guide say "don't touch your face". Too late but makes for a good story. I had to laugh as I had tears running down my face and we past 3 older kids walking right into it with nary a tear. I guess you get used to it?
Ha ha, thx that was mild in the grand scheme but a first for me and it made my eyes cry like a little child. My first reaction was to wipe my eyes and at the same time I hear my tour guide say "don't touch your face". Too late but makes for a good story. I had to laugh as I had tears running down my face and we past 3 older kids walking right into it with nary a tear. I guess you get used to it?
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel โ
โ
โ
, by lee3 on Jul 28, 2017 15:31:10 GMT 1, At the airport finishing up my 20 hour air time return over a few days which has given me a lot of time to edit photos and video and put a highlight clip together. I had a wonderful time despite apprehensions on going with latest clashes. The level of detail on a 3 story hotel is unbelievable and I can't imagine how much time went into setting this up. It's run incredibly well and was great to get that feeling back jumping into his art. I can honestly say that every person I met over there had a smile on their face and a willingness to open up and discuss in detail the adversity of their daily lives. A healthy dose of perspective is a huge understatement. If you're going to the hotel later on don't watch this vid
At the airport finishing up my 20 hour air time return over a few days which has given me a lot of time to edit photos and video and put a highlight clip together. I had a wonderful time despite apprehensions on going with latest clashes. The level of detail on a 3 story hotel is unbelievable and I can't imagine how much time went into setting this up. It's run incredibly well and was great to get that feeling back jumping into his art. I can honestly say that every person I met over there had a smile on their face and a willingness to open up and discuss in detail the adversity of their daily lives. A healthy dose of perspective is a huge understatement. If you're going to the hotel later on don't watch this vid
|
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Sotheby's contemporary art day auction , by lee3 on Jun 29, 2017 17:57:07 GMT 1, ^those are very old photos bud with vomit yellow interior that lasted about a month and the framing on that other piece is horrific. Monkey looks good tho
^those are very old photos bud with vomit yellow interior that lasted about a month and the framing on that other piece is horrific. Monkey looks good tho
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Sotheby's contemporary art day auction , by lee3 on Jun 29, 2017 17:42:53 GMT 1, The cracking everyone is highlighting is very common in the colored early works. Even the red laugh now at bonhams today has it up and down the left side. I had a green one that suffered the same. The reason for the cracking is that many of the early colored canvases through '02 were painted on unprimed canvases so they continue to expand and contract as temperatures increase and decrease in the environment they reside. I believe by '03 he had remedied this but always important to look with a keen eye at the early ones and it has nothing to do with the storage or care given to these by the artist or owners. I spoke with pest control at length about it and they recommended a restorer (Julia Nagel conversation). The solution is to heat the canvas up carefully which will expand the canvas and then glue it (she used honeycomb) to a hard wood or metal surface. Mine was far worse than the pink above and she did an amazing job removing all of the visible cracks.
But, then the owner is left with a canvas that is hard as a rock which depending on how you look at it can make resale more difficult. If it is not remedied, then these canvases will continue to degrade over time so slightly a case of damned if you do/don't but certainly more problematic if ignored. My fix over a decade ago cost about ~$3.5k from memory. Excuse the poor photos but all of those cracks disappeared and the paint looked uniform even from a distance of a few cm:
The cracking everyone is highlighting is very common in the colored early works. Even the red laugh now at bonhams today has it up and down the left side. I had a green one that suffered the same. The reason for the cracking is that many of the early colored canvases through '02 were painted on unprimed canvases so they continue to expand and contract as temperatures increase and decrease in the environment they reside. I believe by '03 he had remedied this but always important to look with a keen eye at the early ones and it has nothing to do with the storage or care given to these by the artist or owners. I spoke with pest control at length about it and they recommended a restorer (Julia Nagel conversation). The solution is to heat the canvas up carefully which will expand the canvas and then glue it (she used honeycomb) to a hard wood or metal surface. Mine was far worse than the pink above and she did an amazing job removing all of the visible cracks. But, then the owner is left with a canvas that is hard as a rock which depending on how you look at it can make resale more difficult. If it is not remedied, then these canvases will continue to degrade over time so slightly a case of damned if you do/don't but certainly more problematic if ignored. My fix over a decade ago cost about ~$3.5k from memory. Excuse the poor photos but all of those cracks disappeared and the paint looked uniform even from a distance of a few cm:
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Forum Auctions โข Banksy Marketplace ๐ฌ๐ง, by lee3 on Jun 14, 2017 17:20:03 GMT 1, Thanks printguru for that clarification. Odd that the feet look different from the signed counterpart but no worry. I have never seen another unsigned so I wonder if that is the lone unsigned example due to the correction despite the noted edition of 25?
Thanks printguru for that clarification. Odd that the feet look different from the signed counterpart but no worry. I have never seen another unsigned so I wonder if that is the lone unsigned example due to the correction despite the noted edition of 25?
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Forum Auctions โข Banksy Marketplace ๐ฌ๐ง, by lee3 on Jun 13, 2017 22:30:17 GMT 1, Radar Rat unigned ed.of 25 estimate 6000-8000ยฃ ... is there something wrong??? Were the Radar Rat only an edition of 75 all signed prints? I think they (Forum Auctions) need to do a bit more research on their prints. In the description of the signed Love Rat they've listed it as an edition of 75. Oddly though on the Radar Rat the print does seemingly have 16/25 written within the POW blind stamp. That radar rat looks suspect. As noted above the edition is 75 signed and in this case the blind stamp is located in the spot the signature is on the rest of the edition and this has no signature and is only numbered to 25? I suppose if it has a COA that reads unsigned (which would be news to anyone here), i'd still check with PC before bidding on that. Looking closer, the feet on that unsigned radar rat look much different than the feet on the signed edition.
Radar Rat unigned ed.of 25 estimate 6000-8000ยฃ ... is there something wrong??? Were the Radar Rat only an edition of 75 all signed prints? I think they (Forum Auctions) need to do a bit more research on their prints. In the description of the signed Love Rat they've listed it as an edition of 75. Oddly though on the Radar Rat the print does seemingly have 16/25 written within the POW blind stamp. That radar rat looks suspect. As noted above the edition is 75 signed and in this case the blind stamp is located in the spot the signature is on the rest of the edition and this has no signature and is only numbered to 25? I suppose if it has a COA that reads unsigned (which would be news to anyone here), i'd still check with PC before bidding on that. Looking closer, the feet on that unsigned radar rat look much different than the feet on the signed edition.
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
New Banksy - UK Election Souvenir Special, by lee3 on Jun 6, 2017 17:42:33 GMT 1, This offer was obviously never going to materialise -it's served it's purpose though as you can see by the 24 (and counting) pages worth of debate! Served what purpose? making a well respected artist look stupid? I do not believe there was anything more to it than a free print, people are reading into it too much I would hope many presumed it was conceptual from the beginning unless he was looking to be arrested and outed which would have been quite a leap as the penalty for actually going through with this would have been steep. I am somewhat surprised so many took this literally from the onset but I can appreciate placing reality aside in the hopes that it was true. It made me laugh and think differently for a bit and that's what i believe it was supposed to do a la the ny stall canvases but maybe I'm wrong.
This offer was obviously never going to materialise -it's served it's purpose though as you can see by the 24 (and counting) pages worth of debate! Served what purpose? making a well respected artist look stupid? I do not believe there was anything more to it than a free print, people are reading into it too much I would hope many presumed it was conceptual from the beginning unless he was looking to be arrested and outed which would have been quite a leap as the penalty for actually going through with this would have been steep. I am somewhat surprised so many took this literally from the onset but I can appreciate placing reality aside in the hopes that it was true. It made me laugh and think differently for a bit and that's what i believe it was supposed to do a la the ny stall canvases but maybe I'm wrong.
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
Banksy Prices Up or Down?, by lee3 on Jun 5, 2017 23:14:00 GMT 1, It's a bubble, clear as day. It will go down, and then slowly surpass the current prices over time. When a signed Girl With Balloon costs as much as a (lower end) Warhol Marilyn you know the prices are to high. Sell now or buy and hold for the long haul! There were 2500 signed Marilyn's on release excluding AP/TP's. There were 150 signed GWB's and another 80 odd APs. I think it's a worthy comparison as they are both arguably the worlds most popular artist during each of their lifetimes and for now, Girl With Balloon (like Marilyn) does carry the premium over the rest of the editioned oeuvre.
But, that price differential can be primarily explained by volume to my eyes. For example, if there are 2500 Marilyn's at an average cost of $150,000 than the edition is worth $375M excluding the ap's and tp's. In Banksy's case there are ~235 signed examples (inclusive of AP's -there are no TPs) worth an average $100k bringing the edition to $23.5M. So the comparison is flawed to me as on the whole the market is valuing GWB at less than 1/10th the price of Marilyn.
Further, Warhol collectors are beginning to get long in the tooth and his name has been heavy at auction for a year or two now. Whether his work continues to inflate price wise a la Picasso remains to be seen as his primary collectors pass away. Banksy is in an entirely different place. I'm not disagreeing with you that everything seems to be bubble like these days but I am disagreeing with the price comparison of one piece of paper versus another while ignoring volume. Nerd rant over, time to head out for a dive.
It's a bubble, clear as day. It will go down, and then slowly surpass the current prices over time. When a signed Girl With Balloon costs as much as a (lower end) Warhol Marilyn you know the prices are to high. Sell now or buy and hold for the long haul! There were 2500 signed Marilyn's on release excluding AP/TP's. There were 150 signed GWB's and another 80 odd APs. I think it's a worthy comparison as they are both arguably the worlds most popular artist during each of their lifetimes and for now, Girl With Balloon (like Marilyn) does carry the premium over the rest of the editioned oeuvre. But, that price differential can be primarily explained by volume to my eyes. For example, if there are 2500 Marilyn's at an average cost of $150,000 than the edition is worth $375M excluding the ap's and tp's. In Banksy's case there are ~235 signed examples (inclusive of AP's -there are no TPs) worth an average $100k bringing the edition to $23.5M. So the comparison is flawed to me as on the whole the market is valuing GWB at less than 1/10th the price of Marilyn. Further, Warhol collectors are beginning to get long in the tooth and his name has been heavy at auction for a year or two now. Whether his work continues to inflate price wise a la Picasso remains to be seen as his primary collectors pass away. Banksy is in an entirely different place. I'm not disagreeing with you that everything seems to be bubble like these days but I am disagreeing with the price comparison of one piece of paper versus another while ignoring volume. Nerd rant over, time to head out for a dive.
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
New Banksy - UK Election Souvenir Special, by lee3 on Jun 3, 2017 22:12:41 GMT 1,
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
|
|