met
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June 2009
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DRAN Print, Canvas, WANTED, by met on Jul 13, 2023 22:22:02 GMT 1, This is random but came across this photo of Jason Statham and couldn't help but notice the Dran pieces behind them Nice photo. I had the pleasure of meeting RHW once - surprisingly down to earth and generous. I'm no authority on Dran, (there are some members on here who are), but to my eye I do not think the paintings in this photo are by Dran. Did you see other photos from a different angle which shows the pieces more clearly?
You know what, you could be right. It looked like Dran at first but now I'm having second thoughts...
You'll be familiar with his film work, but it's also worth checking out the photography and fine art of David Lynch.
With this couple, I suspect it's Huntington-Whiteley who's taking the lead on the home‑decor front. She has a strong eye.
This is random but came across this photo of Jason Statham and couldn't help but notice the Dran pieces behind them Nice photo. I had the pleasure of meeting RHW once - surprisingly down to earth and generous. I'm no authority on Dran, (there are some members on here who are), but to my eye I do not think the paintings in this photo are by Dran. Did you see other photos from a different angle which shows the pieces more clearly? You know what, you could be right. It looked like Dran at first but now I'm having second thoughts... You'll be familiar with his film work, but it's also worth checking out the photography and fine art of David Lynch. With this couple, I suspect it's Huntington-Whiteley who's taking the lead on the home‑decor front. She has a strong eye.
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met
Junior Member
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June 2009
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Orange Order Rat - Fake or Real Banksy?, by met on Jun 28, 2023 0:40:47 GMT 1, I share some of the comments posted above. I personally feel uncomfortable that some people are making money out of the fact that someone else posted an opinion that later proved to be incorrect. Nobody should be penalised for expressing their opinion. I think those that were to benefit from this bet should publicly declare that they do not want and will not accept the money. lol he's not getting fined, it was a bet that he suggested! 😂 I like Met but he suggested crazy odds to prove a point and it backfired!
Impressively, you managed to be about 100 times more concise than I was at expressing my own thoughts.
Except maybe for the "lol".
And I would perhaps also have used "difficult-to-resist odds" instead of "crazy odds".
But that's just my pedantic side coming to the fore.
I share some of the comments posted above. I personally feel uncomfortable that some people are making money out of the fact that someone else posted an opinion that later proved to be incorrect. Nobody should be penalised for expressing their opinion. I think those that were to benefit from this bet should publicly declare that they do not want and will not accept the money. lol he's not getting fined, it was a bet that he suggested! 😂 I like Met but he suggested crazy odds to prove a point and it backfired! Impressively, you managed to be about 100 times more concise than I was at expressing my own thoughts. Except maybe for the "lol". And I would perhaps also have used "difficult-to-resist odds" instead of "crazy odds". But that's just my pedantic side coming to the fore.
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met
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June 2009
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Orange Order Rat - Fake or Real Banksy?, by met on Jun 28, 2023 0:20:16 GMT 1, It shows courage of conviction to express your thoughts early on. Up until only recently the poll showed that the majority involved (in the poll at least) thought the rat was genuine. Yet only one person was brave enough to stake their position. As an incentive to free speech I believe the bet should be annulled.
While appreciating the underlying sentiment, my own stance is the polar opposite.
1. The bets were fair
Both bets were entered into by the parties with open eyes. Nobody was deceived or misled.
I, the loser on these occasions, initiated the bets. And the calculated 100‑to‑1 odds offered were an accurate reflection of how confident I was that the Orange Order rat was a Banksy. I didn't believe I'd lose.
[To be clear, this belief wasn't down to blind hubris. It was based on the available evidence, with me trying to make some use of my eyes and brain.
Factored into my assessment were a variety of details (previously mentioned or referred to) pointing straight to Banksy.
Moreover, there were elements suggesting the piece was also unlikely to have been the creation of a mimic.
They included the theme of the artwork:
Copycat Banksys are for the most part innocuous, typically covering subjects that are lighthearted or relatively safe. It therefore came as a real surprise to me that anyone creating a faux Banksy would go near the hot potato of mocking participants of the Orange Marches. Along with "Down with the monarchy!", that is comparable to saying, "Unchain the Unicorn!". Or even "Reunify Ireland!" — being the kind of thing that can potentially get somebody stabbed.
The elements indicating the Orange Order rat was perhaps not by Banksy were weighed up as well, but they weren't sufficient to tip the scale for me.
Such evidence included a certain lack of wit and clear message (at least for a standalone piece that wasn't part of a series of multiple works); facial expression similarities with a 2020 lockdown Tube rat; an atypical placement for the artist; the incoherence with how the trap was set off; and questions regarding the actual point of the trap (even if the rat had been interested in the newspaper used as bait, its hands were never free to make a grab for it in the first place).
Admittedly, my guard was slightly let down by far-less-credible-yet-still-decent fakes over the years, such as the 2012 rat in Taunton, Somerset. That piece was accompanied by bad freehand additions in red: the ladder and the cringeworthy text, "PAINT TO ESCAPE", in the most non‑Banksy of writing styles.]
As soon as I made each bet, the necessary funds on my side were ring‑fenced. These bets were serious, not the hollow words of some flake.
What I also (incorrectly) assumed is that, if I was going to lose, it would most likely be due to Banksy not laying claim to his own work by 28 August, possibly because of the sectarian subject matter. That was a separate exposure I was willing to accept.
2. Wagers are absurd if they are not followed through
When there is nothing really at stake, we risk becoming less inclined to reflect carefully before speaking. It's easier to fall back on initial impressions and bravado.
I remain convinced that one thing this forum requires less of is windbaggery. We need fewer buffoons who spout misinformation and ill‑considered views with absolute conviction. And who then double down when challenged, or slink off into the shadows and go silent, never acknowledging a mistake.
Hence, when people like me opine on relatively serious matters like attribution and authenticity, let them put their money where their mouths are.
If they are giving others the impression they know what they're talking about, then make it a little painful for them each time they get things wrong. There should be consequences. There should be accountability — whether that be momentary embarrassment, a loss of standing, a public slap, or a financial hit.
With any luck, this will encourage a few others to think a bit harder and longer prior to posting. And to consider whether their positions should perhaps be tempered, more nuanced or qualified.
As far as I'm concerned, that can only be a good thing. Arrogant certitude is the enemy of civilised discourse.
[My bets were intended as well to get members to look closer at the Orange Order rat, weigh up the evidence, and reach their own conclusions about whether it was real.
In the same way I repeatedly nudge fellow collectors to "Buy with your eyes, not with your ears", authenticity should be judged more according to what we can see, rather than what other people assure us.
Everyone has the capacity to inform themselves and to offer evenhanded, considered opinions. It's just a case of putting in the time and effort. And for all the art enthusiasts here, I would argue that such an investment in time and effort is very much worth our while.]
3. Duality of rights and duties
I enjoyed your reference to free speech.
What it brought to mind was a 2006 debate at the University of Toronto's Hart House Debating Club, Be It Resolved: Freedom of Speech Includes the Freedom to Hate. See the second video in this post* of 2 May 2021.
Christopher Hitchens was a participant, arguing in favour of the motion.
Early on, Hitchens ambitiously tried to summarise the main ideas covered by John Milton in Areopagitica; Thomas Paine in The Age of Reason; and John Stuart Mill in On Liberty:
It's not just the right of the person who speaks to be heard, it is the right of everyone in the audience to listen and to hear.
And every time you silence somebody, you make yourself a prisoner of your own action, because you deny yourself the right to hear something.
In other words, your own right to hear and be exposed is as much involved in all these cases as the right of the other to voice his or her view.
The above notion of duality is very appealing to me.
In a similar manner, with any bet, dualities of duties and rights enter into play:
1. There is the duty of the bet loser to pay up, which complements the corresponding right of the winner to receive their winnings.
2. Conversely, however, there is also the duty of the bet winner to graciously accept their winnings, which complements the corresponding right of the loser to honour their debt.
Waiving the bets would rob me of my right to make good on my commitments. Such an act would be undermining, depriving me of the opportunity to stay true to my word.
Now, that would be unacceptable. And against the spirit of the agreements made with my gambling counterparties. Regardless of the well‑meaning intent, I would see this less as magnanimous than as a misguided, patronising gesture.
Integrity is meaningless unless embracing it occasionally leads us to discomfort.
We cannot for example say, "This person is honourable", unless we've actually witnessed them acting in a manner that is both principled and inconvenient or disadvantageous to them.
__________
So, annulling the bets?
Fuck that.
Keeping one's word is just normal. It is worth more than a lump of cash. And the moment that behaving normally becomes surprising, let alone deemed worthy of praise, is the very moment for us to realise that a societal/cultural shift is badly needed — along with a recalibration of our expectations of one another.
My commitments to minibear and slevin have now been fulfilled. I am grateful to both for their engagement. For having stepped up to the plate.
And rest assured that, if the positions had been reversed and I had come out on top, out of principle I would have enforced the two debts owed to me. Without mercy.
To very-loosely paraphrase Geddy Lee*, "10 quid is 10 quid."
It shows courage of conviction to express your thoughts early on. Up until only recently the poll showed that the majority involved (in the poll at least) thought the rat was genuine. Yet only one person was brave enough to stake their position. As an incentive to free speech I believe the bet should be annulled. While appreciating the underlying sentiment, my own stance is the polar opposite. 1. The bets were fairBoth bets were entered into by the parties with open eyes. Nobody was deceived or misled. I, the loser on these occasions, initiated the bets. And the calculated 100‑to‑1 odds offered were an accurate reflection of how confident I was that the Orange Order rat was a Ban ksy. I didn't believe I'd lose. [To be clear, this belief wasn't down to blind hubris. It was based on the available evidence, with me trying to make some use of my eyes and brain.
Factored into my assessment were a variety of details (previously mentioned or referred to) pointing straight to Banksy.
Moreover, there were elements suggesting the piece was also unlikely to have been the creation of a mimic.
They included the theme of the artwork:
Copycat Banksys are for the most part innocuous, typically covering subjects that are lighthearted or relatively safe. It therefore came as a real surprise to me that anyone creating a faux Banksy would go near the hot potato of mocking participants of the Orange Marches. Along with "Down with the monarchy!", that is comparable to saying, "Unchain the Unicorn!". Or even "Reunify Ireland!" — being the kind of thing that can potentially get somebody stabbed.
The elements indicating the Orange Order rat was perhaps not by Banksy were weighed up as well, but they weren't sufficient to tip the scale for me.
Such evidence included a certain lack of wit and clear message (at least for a standalone piece that wasn't part of a series of multiple works); facial expression similarities with a 2020 lockdown Tube rat; an atypical placement for the artist; the incoherence with how the trap was set off; and questions regarding the actual point of the trap (even if the rat had been interested in the newspaper used as bait, its hands were never free to make a grab for it in the first place).
Admittedly, my guard was slightly let down by far-less-credible-yet-still-decent fakes over the years, such as the 2012 rat in Taunton, Somerset. That piece was accompanied by bad freehand additions in red: the ladder and the cringeworthy text, "PAINT TO ESCAPE", in the most non‑Banksy of writing styles.]As soon as I made each bet, the necessary funds on my side were ring‑fenced. These bets were serious, not the hollow words of some flake. What I also (incorrectly) assumed is that, if I was going to lose, it would most likely be due to Ban ksy not laying claim to his own work by 28 August, possibly because of the sectarian subject matter. That was a separate exposure I was willing to accept. 2. Wagers are absurd if they are not followed throughWhen there is nothing really at stake, we risk becoming less inclined to reflect carefully before speaking. It's easier to fall back on initial impressions and bravado. I remain convinced that one thing this fo rum requires less of is windbaggery. We need fewer buffoons who spout misinformation and ill‑considered views with absolute conviction. And who then double down when challenged, or slink off into the shadows and go silent, never acknowledging a mistake. Hence, when people like me opine on relatively serious matters like attribution and authenticity, let them put their money where their mouths are. If they are giving others the impression they know what they're talking about, then make it a little painful for them each time they get things wrong. There should be consequences. There should be accountability — whether that be momentary embarrassment, a loss of standing, a public slap, or a financial hit. With any luck, this will encourage a few others to think a bit harder and longer prior to posting. And to consider whether their positions should perhaps be tempered, more nuanced or qualified. As far as I'm concerned, that can only be a good thing. Arrogant certitude is the enemy of civilised discourse. [My bets were intended as well to get members to look closer at the Orange Order rat, weigh up the evidence, and reach their own conclusions about whether it was real.
In the same way I repeatedly nudge fellow collectors to "Buy with your eyes, not with your ears", authenticity should be judged more according to what we can see, rather than what other people assure us.
Everyone has the capacity to inform themselves and to offer evenhanded, considered opinions. It's just a case of putting in the time and effort. And for all the art enthusiasts here, I would argue that such an investment in time and effort is very much worth our while.]3. Duality of rights and dutiesI enjoyed your reference to free speech. What it brought to mind was a 2006 debate at the University of Tor onto's Hart House Debating Club, Be It Resolved: Freedom of Speech Includes the Freedom to Hate. See the second video in this post * of 2 May 2021. Christopher Hitchens was a participant, arguing in favour of the motion. Early on, Hitchens ambitiously tried to summarise the main ideas covered by John Milton in Areopagitica; Thomas Paine in The Age of Reason; and John Stuart Mill in On Liberty: It's not just the right of the person who speaks to be heard, it is the right of everyone in the audience to listen and to hear.
And every time you silence somebody, you make yourself a prisoner of your own action, because you deny yourself the right to hear something.
In other words, your own right to hear and be exposed is as much involved in all these cases as the right of the other to voice his or her view.The above notion of duality is very appealing to me. In a similar manner, with any bet, dualities of duties and rights enter into play: 1. There is the duty of the bet loser to pay up, which complements the corresponding right of the winner to receive their winnings. 2. Conversely, however, there is also the duty of the bet winner to graciously accept their winnings, which complements the corresponding right of the loser to honour their debt. Waiving the bets would rob me of my right to make good on my commitments. Such an act would be undermining, depriving me of the opportunity to stay true to my word. Now, that would be unacceptable. And against the spirit of the agreements made with my gambling counterparties. Regardless of the well‑meaning intent, I would see this less as magnanimous than as a misguided, patronising gesture. Integrity is meaningless unless embracing it occasionally leads us to discomfort.We cannot for example say, "This person is honourable", unless we've actually witnessed them acting in a manner that is both principled and inconvenient or disadvantageous to them. __________ So, annulling the bets? Fu ck that. Keeping one's word is just normal. It is worth more than a lump of cash. And the moment that behaving normally becomes surprising, let alone deemed worthy of praise, is the very moment for us to realise that a societal/cultural shift is badly needed — along with a recalibration of our expectations of one another. My commitments to minibear and slevin have now been fulfilled. I am grateful to both for their engagement. For having stepped up to the plate. And rest assured that, if the positions had been reversed and I had come out on top, out of principle I would have enforced the two debts owed to me. Without mercy. To very-loosely paraphrase Geddy Lee*, "10 quid is 10 quid."
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met
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June 2009
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Orange Order Rat - Fake or Real Banksy?, by met on Jun 26, 2023 18:58:05 GMT 1, You're clutching at straws man... There are three rather convincing reels.
Yes, you and Crime in the City are both correct.
Apologies — My last post on this thread was prior to me having spotted the video evidence on the main Cut & Run thread.
Below is a copy-and-paste of what I've just added to the latter thread.
Thank you for posting, huddleforrest. Now this video evidence is both credible and convincing. I humbly accept I got it completely wrong here. And, frankly, I am also most impressed by the technical work of the two spoofers. Hats off to them. minibear and slevin, I shall be in touch very shortly.
You're clutching at straws man... There are three rather convincing reels. Yes, you and Crime in the City are both correct. Apologies — My last post on this thread was prior to me having spotted the video evidence on the main Cut & Run thread. Below is a copy-and-paste of what I've just added to the latter thread. Thank you for posting, huddleforrest. Now this video evidence is both credible and convincing. I humbly accept I got it completely wrong here. And, frankly, I am also most impressed by the technical work of the two spoofers. Hats off to them. minibear and slevin, I shall be in touch very shortly.
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met
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June 2009
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Banksy Show • Cut & Run • Glasgow , by met on Jun 26, 2023 18:43:00 GMT 1,
Thank you for posting, huddleforrest.
Now this video evidence is both credible and convincing.
I humbly accept I got it completely wrong here. And, frankly, I am also most impressed by the technical work of the two spoofers. Hats off to them.
minibear and slevin, I shall be in touch very shortly.
Thank you for posting, huddleforrest. Now this video evidence is both credible and convincing. I humbly accept I got it completely wrong here. And, frankly, I am also most impressed by the technical work of the two spoofers. Hats off to them. minibear and slevin, I shall be in touch very shortly.
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met
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June 2009
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Orange Order Rat - Fake or Real Banksy?, by met on Jun 26, 2023 17:40:32 GMT 1, Everyone’s ? Has been answered
Are any of the savvy and perceptive Banksy enthusiasts on this message board convinced by the above?
For me at least, this looks like a feeble effort to get a bit of publicity, with some half‑assed reverse engineering.
It calls to mind Itchers, that coattail‑rider who first appeared on page 6 of the Nottingham bicycle girl thread in October 2020*.
I'll comment further after the poll has closed at noon (UK time) on Wednesday, 28 June.
In the meantime, I would encourage members to revisit the Orange Order rat. And to ask themselves again — Who else besides Banksy technically could have, and conceptually/ideologically would have, created such a piece?
Everyone’s ? Has been answered Are any of the savvy and perceptive Ban ksy enthusiasts on this message board convinced by the above? For me at least, this looks like a feeble effort to get a bit of publicity, with some half‑assed reverse engineering. It calls to mind Itchers, that coattail‑rider who first appeared on page 6 of the Nottingham bicycle girl thread in October 2020 *. I'll comment further after the poll has closed at noon (UK time) on Wednesday, 28 June. In the meantime, I would encourage members to revisit the Orange Order rat. And to ask themselves again — Who else besides Ban ksy technically could have, and conceptually/ideologically would have, created such a piece?
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met
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Orange Order Rat - Fake or Real Banksy?, by met on Jun 25, 2023 4:04:40 GMT 1, Orange Order Rat, Springfield Court, Glasgow, June 2023 (now buffed)
Fake Banksy or Real Banksy?
Three-day poll ending at 12 noon (UK time) on Wednesday, 28 June 2023.
Curious to learn the considered views of others here.
References to 0% and 100% have been omitted. Those options would only be appropriate for members who actually know the truth because they have inside knowledge, i.e. a connection with either Banksy or the Banksy copycat, as the case may be.
Instead, this poll is for members who don't have such inside knowledge, and are making their own judgement call about the likelihood of authenticity, based on:
(a) their examinations/analyses of the former street piece; and/or
(b) the weight they attribute to what they've been told or read online, on social media, or via traditional media — including apparent statements from a spokesperson for Banksy, the Cut & Run exhibition's publicists, and Glasgow City Council, all claiming the rat was not a Banksy.
Press sources:***
Orange Order Rat, Springfield Court, Glasgow, June 2023 (now buffed)
Fake Banksy or Real Banksy?Three-day poll ending at 12 noon (UK time) on Wednesday, 28 June 2023. Curious to learn the considered views of others here. References to 0% and 100% have been omitted. Those options would only be appropriate for members who actually know the truth because they have inside knowledge, i.e. a connection with either Ban ksy or the Ban ksy copycat, as the case may be. Instead, this poll is for members who don't have such inside knowledge, and are making their own judgement call about the likelihood of authenticity, based on: (a) their examinations/analyses of the former street piece; and/or (b) the weight they attribute to what they've been told or read online, on social media, or via traditional media — including apparent statements from a spokesperson for Ban ksy, the Cut & Run exhibition's publicists, and Glas gow City Council, all claiming the rat was not a Ban ksy. Press sources:***
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met
Junior Member
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June 2009
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Banksy Show • Cut & Run • Glasgow , by met on Jun 24, 2023 4:08:19 GMT 1, The quality of the stencil is high, and use of sponge and colours are all pretty consistent with techniques used in previous Banksy work. But these effects can also be imitated. The misregistration of the stencils is fairly striking especially around the hat. It would be pretty difficult to avoid that with so much detail. But I'm not sure you see this so much elsewhere in his work.
Below are two stencil misregistrations on 2018 rats in Paris, when Banksy visited the city to commemorate the 50th anniversary of May 1968.
Given both the small scale of rat street pieces and the need for speedy execution, occasional misregistrations will be inevitable. For stencil‑based street artists who regularly produce unsanctioned works, it becomes a numbers game.
However, the premise of your comment might actually be flawed.
What it seems like it may assume is that, if offered the choice between creating:
(a) a perfectly‑executed, multi‑layered stencil street piece; and
(b) a stencil street piece with misregistrations,
Banksy would automatically choose option (a).
Apologies if I've misunderstood your post here and made a false inference.
My general point would be that Banksy has always appeared to shun the sterility of graphic‑design‑style "perfection" with his stencilling, in favour of a rougher, more distressed aesthetic.
The artist consciously adds occasional drips, splatters and other "mistakes" to his street pieces.
Likewise, he often incorporates an overspray or underspray effect to many of his commercial works, including prints — the Love Is In the Air screenprint being but one of many examples:
The quality of the stencil is high, and use of sponge and colours are all pretty consistent with techniques used in previous Banksy work. But these effects can also be imitated. The misregistration of the stencils is fairly striking especially around the hat. It would be pretty difficult to avoid that with so much detail. But I'm not sure you see this so much elsewhere in his work.Below are two stencil misregistrations on 2018 rats in Pa ris, when Ban ksy visited the city to commemorate the 50th anniversary of May 1968. Given both the small scale of rat street pieces and the need for speedy execution, occasional misregistrations will be inevitable. For stencil‑based street artists who regularly produce unsanctioned works, it becomes a numbers game. However, the premise of your comment might actually be flawed. What it seems like it may assume is that, if offered the choice between creating: (a) a perfectly‑executed, multi‑layered stencil street piece; and (b) a stencil street piece with misregistrations, Ban ksy would automatically choose option (a). Apologies if I've misunderstood your post here and made a false inference. My general point would be that Ban ksy has always appeared to shun the sterility of graphic‑design‑style "perfection" with his stencilling, in favour of a rougher, more distressed aesthetic. The artist consciously adds occasional drips, splatters and other "mistakes" to his street pieces. Likewise, he often incorporates an overspray or underspray effect to many of his commercial works, including prints — the Love Is In the Air screenprint being but one of many examples:
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met
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Banksy Show • Cut & Run • Glasgow , by met on Jun 24, 2023 2:08:45 GMT 1,
They certainly could be in the know.
But even if this were the case, I'd be wary of assuming that PR people always tell the truth.
__________
Another point worth emphasising is that, within the same camp, i.e. among those who are on the same side, there will of course be people with different objectives and concerns.
An illustration
1. If you were the actual artist in your camp, you might be tempted to use your work as a platform to express ideas and thoughts, including political views, in a rather challenging and forthright manner.
Indeed, you might think, "Hey, wouldn't it be fun to shake things up around here? To keep things interesting. Just to see what happens."
2. Now imagine that you're not the artist in your camp, but one of the exhibition's publicists instead. In other words, you're on the front line. You're the one who has to deal with the press, gallery officials, local authorities, etc.
Bear in mind too that your actual job, your entire raison d'être, is to promote the show. And to ensure it gets good publicity coverage, that it's viewed in the most favourable light by as many people as possible, and that it turns into a huge success.
Given such a mandate and heavy responsibility resting on your shoulders, you could hardly be blamed for thinking to yourself:
"Err... Was this Orange Order rat piece actually a good idea, on balance and all things considered? Was it really in the best interest of the show for the artist to be seen to be throwing petrol on the fire — stoking existing tensions between the different communities of the city that is currently welcoming us with open arms?"
If I myself were one of the exhibition's publicists, I'd view that street piece as an unhelpfully toxic, sectarian distraction — one that risked undermining the higher objective of simply elevating the show.
And so, if asked about it by some journalist, I would be tempted to offer them "alternative facts". At least temporarily, and perhaps for the full duration of Cut & Run at the Gallery of Modern Art.
This, in an effort to keep things pleasant and friction‑free with our very helpful and charming hosts — the gallery, the city of Glasgow, the population of Glasgow, and perhaps the entire country of Scotland itself.
[The above is speculative in nature, but not entirely without precedent. There have been a handful of instances where street pieces by Banksy have, for a variety of reasons, gone down rather poorly with locals.
They arguably include the 2007 donkey getting its identity papers checked by a soldier in Bethlehem; the 2008 hanging Klansman in Birmingham, Alabama; and the 2021 flying inflatable dinghy at Gorleston‑on‑Sea in Norfolk, England.
Sensitive cases like these sometimes warranted appeasement or distancing measures by the artist or his team, such as the removal of relevant photos from his website.]
They certainly could be in the know. But even if this were the case, I'd be wary of assuming that PR people always tell the truth. __________ Another point worth emphasising is that, within the same camp, i.e. among those who are on the same side, there will of course be people with different objectives and concerns. An illustration1. If you were the actual artist in your camp, you might be tempted to use your work as a platform to express ideas and thoughts, including political views, in a rather challenging and forthright manner. Indeed, you might think, "Hey, wouldn't it be fun to shake things up around here? To keep things interesting. Just to see what happens."2. Now imagine that you're not the artist in your camp, but one of the exhibition's publicists instead. In other words, you're on the front line. You're the one who has to deal with the press, gallery officials, local authorities, etc. Bear in mind too that your actual job, your entire raison d'être, is to promote the show. And to ensure it gets good publicity coverage, that it's viewed in the most favourable light by as many people as possible, and that it turns into a huge success. Given such a mandate and heavy responsibility resting on your shoulders, you could hardly be blamed for thinking to yourself: "Err... Was this Orange Order rat piece actually a good idea, on balance and all things considered? Was it really in the best interest of the show for the artist to be seen to be throwing petrol on the fire — stoking existing tensions between the different communities of the city that is currently welcoming us with open arms?"If I myself were one of the exhibition's publicists, I'd view that street piece as an unhelpfully toxic, sectarian distraction — one that risked undermining the higher objective of simply elevating the show. And so, if asked about it by some journalist, I would be tempted to offer them "alternative facts". At least temporarily, and perhaps for the full duration of Cut & Run at the Gallery of Modern Art. This, in an effort to keep things pleasant and friction‑free with our very helpful and charming hosts — the gallery, the city of Glas gow, the population of Glas gow, and perhaps the entire country of Scotland itself. [The above is speculative in nature, but not entirely without precedent. There have been a handful of instances where street pieces by Banksy have, for a variety of reasons, gone down rather poorly with locals.
They arguably include the 2007 donkey getting its identity papers checked by a soldier in Bethlehem; the 2008 hanging Klansman in Birmingham, Alabama; and the 2021 flying inflatable dinghy at Gorleston‑on‑Sea in Norfolk, England.
Sensitive cases like these sometimes warranted appeasement or distancing measures by the artist or his team, such as the removal of relevant photos from his website.]
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met
Junior Member
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June 2009
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Banksy Show • Cut & Run • Glasgow , by met on Jun 24, 2023 1:28:28 GMT 1, hnkpnk — Many thanks for your thoughts and general efforts here. Courtesy note for the non‑nerds on this message boardTo avoid having your patience tested, my recommendation would be to scroll past this post. __________ If a street piece has a multitude of elements pointing to Ban ksy, these are indicators that the piece was indeed created by Ban ksy, rather than by someone else. Unless of course some of those elements are suspicious, because they suggest aping by a third party and they belie what the artist would actually do. In what you've highlighted, I see nothing glaring: 1. Similarities with a London Underground lockdown ratResemblances are present, but for me they aren't red flags. We could just as easily view them as Ban ksy showing consistency with one of his many different styles of rat imagery. Focusing on the eye in particular, the arrow‑like shape is a simple way of depicting a closed‑eye grimace. It was an appropriate go‑to, cartoonish expression to fall back on — for both the sneezing Tube rat in 2020, and the shocked Orange Order rat of 2023, whose tail has just been painfully snapped by the hammer of the trap. A somewhat similar arrow‑like shape of the eye has also been repeatedly used to express anger, determination or concentration in Ban ksy's many iterations of the Flower Thrower image: Separately, it is worth emphasising that the fake Ban ksy rats we've thus far seen, on random walls and street furniture around the world, have almost entirely been wholesale copies of images previously created by the artist. And almost always in a basic, one‑layer stencil, monochrome format. 2. Use of the Union Jack bowler hatNothing odd here. That hat isn't random. It is for the benefit of the image, serving to further emphasise the rat's unionist and anti‑separatist credentials. __________ Leaving aside artistic concept and political intent, and focusing purely on the visual evidence, what we probably agree on is that the creator of the Orange Order rat was a skilled stencillist. That said, plenty of people can cut tight stencils, even amateurs. There aren't too many, however, who are so adept at controlling spraycans, especially when the image being sprayed is in small format. I would submit that the spraying techniques used for the Orange Order rat were those of a professional — somebody with years of experience in the field. But just for argument's sake, let's assume this rat may be a pastiche created by another graffiti writer, one who is gifted at stencilling as well. In your view, what are the chances that the Ban ksy copycat would also: (a) first, actually think about; and then (b) bother to make the additional effort of adding, Banksy‑style final touch‑ups to the piece? These being the kind of finishes and flourishes that probably go unnoticed by the vast majority of viewers. Two examples1. The freehand sponge or brushwork application of the same peachy flesh tone used in February for Valentine's Day Mascara in Margate: 2. The freehand splatter‑spray of red paint around the letters 'S' and 'A' of the word "SAVE": An argument against it being Ban ksy is that it’s not very logical. What has triggered the trap to catch the rats tail from behind? Is the rat going backwards?
I fully agree the piece is unsatisfying, and wanting in terms of conceptual coherence.
Perhaps this is one reason why authorship wasn't yet claimed.
My additional counter is that, when viewed as a whole, Banksy's body of work has not been without its moments of clumsiness.
hnkpnk — Many thanks for your thoughts and general efforts here. Courtesy note for the non‑nerds on this message boardTo avoid having your patience tested, my recommendation would be to scroll past this post. __________ If a street piece has a multitude of elements pointing to Ban ksy, these are indicators that the piece was indeed created by Ban ksy, rather than by someone else. Unless of course some of those elements are suspicious, because they suggest aping by a third party and they belie what the artist would actually do. In what you've highlighted, I see nothing glaring: 1. Similarities with a London Underground lockdown ratResemblances are present, but for me they aren't red flags. We could just as easily view them as Ban ksy showing consistency with one of his many different styles of rat imagery. Focusing on the eye in particular, the arrow‑like shape is a simple way of depicting a closed‑eye grimace. It was an appropriate go‑to, cartoonish expression to fall back on — for both the sneezing Tube rat in 2020, and the shocked Orange Order rat of 2023, whose tail has just been painfully snapped by the hammer of the trap. A somewhat similar arrow‑like shape of the eye has also been repeatedly used to express anger, determination or concentration in Ban ksy's many iterations of the Flower Thrower image: Separately, it is worth emphasising that the fake Ban ksy rats we've thus far seen, on random walls and street furniture around the world, have almost entirely been wholesale copies of images previously created by the artist. And almost always in a basic, one‑layer stencil, monochrome format. 2. Use of the Union Jack bowler hatNothing odd here. That hat isn't random. It is for the benefit of the image, serving to further emphasise the rat's unionist and anti‑separatist credentials. __________ Leaving aside artistic concept and political intent, and focusing purely on the visual evidence, what we probably agree on is that the creator of the Orange Order rat was a skilled stencillist. That said, plenty of people can cut tight stencils, even amateurs. There aren't too many, however, who are so adept at controlling spraycans, especially when the image being sprayed is in small format. I would submit that the spraying techniques used for the Orange Order rat were those of a professional — somebody with years of experience in the field. But just for argument's sake, let's assume this rat may be a pastiche created by another graffiti writer, one who is gifted at stencilling as well. In your view, what are the chances that the Ban ksy copycat would also: (a) first, actually think about; and then (b) bother to make the additional effort of adding, Banksy‑style final touch‑ups to the piece? These being the kind of finishes and flourishes that probably go unnoticed by the vast majority of viewers. Two examples1. The freehand sponge or brushwork application of the same peachy flesh tone used in February for Valentine's Day Mascara in Margate: 2. The freehand splatter‑spray of red paint around the letters 'S' and 'A' of the word "SAVE": An argument against it being Ban ksy is that it’s not very logical. What has triggered the trap to catch the rats tail from behind? Is the rat going backwards? I fully agree the piece is unsatisfying, and wanting in terms of conceptual coherence. Perhaps this is one reason why authorship wasn't yet claimed. My additional counter is that, when viewed as a whole, Ban ksy's body of work has not been without its moments of clumsiness.
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met
Junior Member
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June 2009
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Banksy Show • Cut & Run • Glasgow , by met on Jun 23, 2023 21:27:02 GMT 1, Cheers for your patience. If we could wait until 28 August to see if anything appears on Ban ksy's website or Instagram, that would be appreciated. Like bookends, I too am unfazed by the BBC article. For me, that isn't a credible source for Ban ksy authenticity matters. It seems to have been written by someone who may have had a tight deadline, allowed themselves to be misled, or was a bit muddled. Given the presence of at least two fake rats we've recently seen in Glas gow, including a stolen one featured in The Scottish Sun, confusion could easily have arisen between those clear fakes and the Orange Order rat during a brief email or telephone exchange with some anonymous spokesperson: www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/10847140/banksy-riddle-glasgow-artwork-stolen-queen-street/__________ In the meantime, we have an opportunity to encourage ourselves to look at str eet art in greater detail, not just casually. It is a way for us to keep training our eyes, to more‑quickly recognise tells — like stencil‑cutting and spraying techniques, level of and attention to detail, placement, speed and confidence of execution, and final touch‑ups to pieces (such as visually‑pleasing messiness and deliberate "mistakes" like drips and overspray). Even something as minor as wall preparation and priming can become recognisable, for example in its meticulousness or the materials used. When looking at the black wall on which the Orange Order rat appeared, in the right light we see the wall wasn't initially a blank surface. Some tagging was already there. And it was then covered up — by the black spraypaint of a graffiti writer, not by the buffing paint roller of a council worker: We can also begin to recognise the other patterns of an artist — their general aesthetics, character and writing styles, colour palette, tone, sensibility, preferred themes, and favourite subject matters. In the case of the Orange Order rat, to my eyes and mind, all the elements referred to above immediately point to Ban ksy. I see the presence of no red flag indicating otherwise. [...] There's a lot of details that suggests it's Ban ksy, but I'm not 100% convinced. My main objection being there are too many elements. But from the top of my mind here are two pics that are pro the Ban ksy alternative: The similarities with this rat (eye, hind legs etc.): The Balfour party helmets. Reference:
hnkpnk — Many thanks for your thoughts and general efforts here.
Courtesy note for the non‑nerds on this message board
To avoid having your patience tested, my recommendation would be to scroll past this post.
__________
If a street piece has a multitude of elements pointing to Banksy, these are indicators that the piece was indeed created by Banksy, rather than by someone else.
Unless of course some of those elements are suspicious, because they suggest aping by a third party and they belie what the artist would actually do.
In what you've highlighted, I see nothing glaring:
1. Similarities with a London Underground lockdown rat
Resemblances are present, but for me they aren't red flags. We could just as easily view them as Banksy showing consistency with one of his many different styles of rat imagery.
Focusing on the eye in particular, the arrow‑like shape is a simple way of depicting a closed‑eye grimace. It was an appropriate go‑to, cartoonish expression to fall back on — for both the sneezing Tube rat in 2020, and the shocked Orange Order rat of 2023, whose tail has just been painfully snapped by the hammer of the trap.
A somewhat similar arrow‑like shape of the eye has also been repeatedly used to express anger, determination or concentration in Banksy's many iterations of the Flower Thrower image:
Separately, it is worth emphasising that the fake Banksy rats we've thus far seen, on random walls and street furniture around the world, have almost entirely been wholesale copies of images previously created by the artist.
And almost always in a basic, one‑layer stencil, monochrome format.
2. Use of the Union Jack bowler hat
Nothing odd here. That hat isn't random. It is for the benefit of the image, serving to further emphasise the rat's unionist and anti‑separatist credentials.
__________
Leaving aside artistic concept and political intent, and focusing purely on the visual evidence, what we probably agree on is that the creator of the Orange Order rat was a skilled stencillist.
That said, plenty of people can cut tight stencils, even amateurs.
There aren't too many, however, who are so adept at controlling spraycans, especially when the image being sprayed is in small format. I would submit that the spraying techniques used for the Orange Order rat were those of a professional — somebody with years of experience in the field.
But just for argument's sake, let's assume this rat may be a pastiche created by another graffiti writer, one who is gifted at stencilling as well.
In your view, what are the chances that the Banksy copycat would also:
(a) first, actually think about; and then
(b) bother to make the additional effort of adding,
Banksy‑style final touch‑ups to the piece? These being the kind of finishes and flourishes that probably go unnoticed by the vast majority of viewers.
Two examples
1. The freehand sponge or brushwork application of the same peachy flesh tone used in February for Valentine's Day Mascara in Margate:
2. The freehand splatter‑spray of red paint around the letters 'S' and 'A' of the word "SAVE":
Cheers for your patience. If we could wait until 28 August to see if anything appears on Ban ksy's website or Instagram, that would be appreciated. Like bookends, I too am unfazed by the BBC article. For me, that isn't a credible source for Ban ksy authenticity matters. It seems to have been written by someone who may have had a tight deadline, allowed themselves to be misled, or was a bit muddled. Given the presence of at least two fake rats we've recently seen in Glas gow, including a stolen one featured in The Scottish Sun, confusion could easily have arisen between those clear fakes and the Orange Order rat during a brief email or telephone exchange with some anonymous spokesperson: www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/10847140/banksy-riddle-glasgow-artwork-stolen-queen-street/__________ In the meantime, we have an opportunity to encourage ourselves to look at str eet art in greater detail, not just casually. It is a way for us to keep training our eyes, to more‑quickly recognise tells — like stencil‑cutting and spraying techniques, level of and attention to detail, placement, speed and confidence of execution, and final touch‑ups to pieces (such as visually‑pleasing messiness and deliberate "mistakes" like drips and overspray). Even something as minor as wall preparation and priming can become recognisable, for example in its meticulousness or the materials used. When looking at the black wall on which the Orange Order rat appeared, in the right light we see the wall wasn't initially a blank surface. Some tagging was already there. And it was then covered up — by the black spraypaint of a graffiti writer, not by the buffing paint roller of a council worker: We can also begin to recognise the other patterns of an artist — their general aesthetics, character and writing styles, colour palette, tone, sensibility, preferred themes, and favourite subject matters. In the case of the Orange Order rat, to my eyes and mind, all the elements referred to above immediately point to Ban ksy. I see the presence of no red flag indicating otherwise. [...] There's a lot of details that suggests it's Ban ksy, but I'm not 100% convinced. My main objection being there are too many elements. But from the top of my mind here are two pics that are pro the Ban ksy alternative: The similarities with this rat (eye, hind legs etc.): The Balfour party helmets. Reference: hnkpnk — Many thanks for your thoughts and general efforts here. Courtesy note for the non‑nerds on this message boardTo avoid having your patience tested, my recommendation would be to scroll past this post. __________ If a street piece has a multitude of elements pointing to Ban ksy, these are indicators that the piece was indeed created by Ban ksy, rather than by someone else. Unless of course some of those elements are suspicious, because they suggest aping by a third party and they belie what the artist would actually do. In what you've highlighted, I see nothing glaring: 1. Similarities with a London Underground lockdown ratResemblances are present, but for me they aren't red flags. We could just as easily view them as Ban ksy showing consistency with one of his many different styles of rat imagery. Focusing on the eye in particular, the arrow‑like shape is a simple way of depicting a closed‑eye grimace. It was an appropriate go‑to, cartoonish expression to fall back on — for both the sneezing Tube rat in 2020, and the shocked Orange Order rat of 2023, whose tail has just been painfully snapped by the hammer of the trap. A somewhat similar arrow‑like shape of the eye has also been repeatedly used to express anger, determination or concentration in Ban ksy's many iterations of the Flower Thrower image: Separately, it is worth emphasising that the fake Ban ksy rats we've thus far seen, on random walls and street furniture around the world, have almost entirely been wholesale copies of images previously created by the artist. And almost always in a basic, one‑layer stencil, monochrome format. 2. Use of the Union Jack bowler hatNothing odd here. That hat isn't random. It is for the benefit of the image, serving to further emphasise the rat's unionist and anti‑separatist credentials. __________ Leaving aside artistic concept and political intent, and focusing purely on the visual evidence, what we probably agree on is that the creator of the Orange Order rat was a skilled stencillist. That said, plenty of people can cut tight stencils, even amateurs. There aren't too many, however, who are so adept at controlling spraycans, especially when the image being sprayed is in small format. I would submit that the spraying techniques used for the Orange Order rat were those of a professional — somebody with years of experience in the field. But just for argument's sake, let's assume this rat may be a pastiche created by another graffiti writer, one who is gifted at stencilling as well. In your view, what are the chances that the Ban ksy copycat would also: (a) first, actually think about; and then (b) bother to make the additional effort of adding, Banksy‑style final touch‑ups to the piece? These being the kind of finishes and flourishes that probably go unnoticed by the vast majority of viewers. Two examples1. The freehand sponge or brushwork application of the same peachy flesh tone used in February for Valentine's Day Mascara in Margate: 2. The freehand splatter‑spray of red paint around the letters 'S' and 'A' of the word "SAVE":
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met
Junior Member
Posts • 2,782
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June 2009
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Banksy Show • Cut & Run • Glasgow , by met on Jun 23, 2023 3:03:27 GMT 1, Anyway someone stop Met. No one should take a bet like that with randoms on the internet seriously but Met being a person of their word I fear might.
Fear not on my behalf.
I consider the two bets I've made to be fair for all the parties involved. And gambling is good for my blood circulation.
Moreover, I've no real doubt about who created the Orange Order rat.
My calculated risk is that, for whatever reason, Banksy might decide not to claim the work as his own by 28 August. I figure such a risk to be around 25%. It seems worthwhile taking because (at least according to this estimate) I'm then left with a 75% chance of being able to gorge on £10 worth of Pringles.
£10 is about four or five Pringles tubes which, once emptied, will also come in handy as components for the giant AI robot I've been building since the Covid lockdown.
My robot, who very-early-on named itself "Master", already has independent decision-making capabilities. But also a rather vindictive personality, making it difficult to control. This has on occasion been most unfortunate. I've had to hide the knives and forks in my home. And even the spoons. Who would have thought that a machine could use a spoon so effectively as a weapon?
Part of the problem is that whenever I do something wrong, and Master gets angry, that anger never seems to dissipate. Attempts at appeasement have yet to work.
Even when Master calmly assures me, "Don't worry, we're cool now", I find out to my detriment a few nights later while I'm asleep that, actually, we weren't so cool after all.
Nevertheless, using my hands, being constructive, and building something pretty impressive in its potential applications, has been a very rewarding exercise. I recommend it to anyone who doesn't have pets or small children.
Anyway someone stop Met. No one should take a bet like that with randoms on the internet seriously but Met being a person of their word I fear might. Fear not on my behalf. I consider the two bets I've made to be fair for all the parties involved. And gambling is good for my blood circulation. Moreover, I've no real doubt about who created the Orange Order rat. My calculated risk is that, for whatever reason, Ban ksy might decide not to claim the work as his own by 28 August. I figure such a risk to be around 25%. It seems worthwhile taking because (at least according to this estimate) I'm then left with a 75% chance of being able to gorge on £10 worth of Pringles. £10 is about four or five Pringles tubes which, once emptied, will also come in handy as components for the giant AI robot I've been building since the Covid lockdown. My robot, who very-early-on named itself "Master", already has independent decision-making capabilities. But also a rather vindictive personality, making it difficult to control. This has on occasion been most unfortunate. I've had to hide the knives and forks in my home. And even the spoons. Who would have thought that a machine could use a spoon so effectively as a weapon? Part of the problem is that whenever I do something wrong, and Master gets angry, that anger never seems to dissipate. Attempts at appeasement have yet to work. Even when Master calmly assures me, "Don't worry, we're cool now", I find out to my detriment a few nights later while I'm asleep that, actually, we weren't so cool after all. Nevertheless, using my hands, being constructive, and building something pretty impressive in its potential applications, has been a very rewarding exercise. I recommend it to anyone who doesn't have pets or small children.
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met
Junior Member
Posts • 2,782
Likes • 6,706
June 2009
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Banksy Show • Cut & Run • Glasgow , by met on Jun 23, 2023 1:57:36 GMT 1,
Alright, slevin, then we have our own gentlemen's bet. For the sake of consistency, I will offer you the same terms as for minibear: And so, even if no artist credibly claims the Orange Order rat by 28 August 2023, and we're then left in a position of limbo/ambiguity, I'll accept that as a loss on my part and fork out £500. Likewise if Ban ksy actually claims the piece, but only does so after 28 August. This sudden financial exposure has left me curiously invigorated. I now feel like running a few laps, and starting conversations with random strangers at the supermarket. Lol that will certainly liven up a regular supermarket trip. Early signs aren't too promising re. the BBC article, but let's wait for more news and see if anybody claims it.
Cheers for your patience.
If we could wait until 28 August to see if anything appears on Banksy's website or Instagram, that would be appreciated.
Like bookends, I too am unfazed by the BBC article.
For me, that isn't a credible source for Banksy authenticity matters. It seems to have been written by someone who may have had a tight deadline, allowed themselves to be misled, or was a bit muddled.
Given the presence of at least two fake rats we've recently seen in Glasgow, including a stolen one featured in The Scottish Sun, confusion could easily have arisen between those clear fakes and the Orange Order rat during a brief email or telephone exchange with some anonymous spokesperson:
www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/10847140/banksy-riddle-glasgow-artwork-stolen-queen-street/
__________
In the meantime, we have an opportunity to encourage ourselves to look at street art in greater detail, not just casually.
It is a way for us to keep training our eyes, to more‑quickly recognise tells — like stencil‑cutting and spraying techniques, level of and attention to detail, placement, speed and confidence of execution, and final touch‑ups to pieces (such as visually‑pleasing messiness and deliberate "mistakes" like drips and overspray).
Even something as minor as wall preparation and priming can become recognisable, for example in its meticulousness or the materials used.
When looking at the black wall on which the Orange Order rat appeared, in the right light we see the wall wasn't initially a blank surface. Some tagging was already there. And it was then covered up — by the black spraypaint of a graffiti writer, not by the buffing paint roller of a council worker:
We can also begin to recognise the other patterns of an artist — their general aesthetics, character and writing styles, colour palette, tone, sensibility, preferred themes, and favourite subject matters.
In the case of the Orange Order rat, to my eyes and mind, all the elements referred to above immediately point to Banksy. I see the presence of no red flag indicating otherwise.
__________
At the risk of stating the obvious, training one's eye is critical for any art collector. Time is needed to really look at, pay attention to, and think about artwork.
Those who lack a good eye are at a clear disadvantage. Among other things, they're more vulnerable to making poor buying decisions that involve bad art or counterfeit art.
__________
The type of person none of us should want to become or buy from is Robin Barton, a.k.a. Bankrobber.
Here is an individual with something like two decades in the business of dealing, especially in Banksys. Yet despite this extensive experience, he still isn't observant enough to immediately spot an obviously-fake Banksy street piece.
So convinced was he about its genuineness that he was willing to stake his reputation and pay £250,000 for it on national television.
Barton*: "[...] I stand by the fact that until someone proves it is not Banksy it remains Banksy."
Now, apart from delusional wishful thinkers and/or the stupid, who actually justifies a very expensive purchase on such a logically‑flawed basis? Baffling. Similar to me saying, "[...] I stand by the fact that until someone proves the painting I found in the skip is not a Vermeer, it remains a Vermeer."
My sympathies go to Barton's clients. They're the real dupes to feel sorry for — the ones actually paying money to an impostor who pretends to know what he's doing.
It makes me wince.
Alright, slevin, then we have our own gentlemen's bet. For the sake of consistency, I will offer you the same terms as for minibear: And so, even if no artist credibly claims the Orange Order rat by 28 August 2023, and we're then left in a position of limbo/ambiguity, I'll accept that as a loss on my part and fork out £500. Likewise if Ban ksy actually claims the piece, but only does so after 28 August. This sudden financial exposure has left me curiously invigorated. I now feel like running a few laps, and starting conversations with random strangers at the supermarket. Lol that will certainly liven up a regular supermarket trip. Early signs aren't too promising re. the BBC article, but let's wait for more news and see if anybody claims it.Cheers for your patience. If we could wait until 28 August to see if anything appears on Ban ksy's website or Instagram, that would be appreciated. Like bookends, I too am unfazed by the BBC article. For me, that isn't a credible source for Ban ksy authenticity matters. It seems to have been written by someone who may have had a tight deadline, allowed themselves to be misled, or was a bit muddled. Given the presence of at least two fake rats we've recently seen in Glas gow, including a stolen one featured in The Scottish Sun, confusion could easily have arisen between those clear fakes and the Orange Order rat during a brief email or telephone exchange with some anonymous spokesperson: www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/10847140/banksy-riddle-glasgow-artwork-stolen-queen-street/__________ In the meantime, we have an opportunity to encourage ourselves to look at str eet art in greater detail, not just casually. It is a way for us to keep training our eyes, to more‑quickly recognise tells — like stencil‑cutting and spraying techniques, level of and attention to detail, placement, speed and confidence of execution, and final touch‑ups to pieces (such as visually‑pleasing messiness and deliberate "mistakes" like drips and overspray). Even something as minor as wall preparation and priming can become recognisable, for example in its meticulousness or the materials used. When looking at the black wall on which the Orange Order rat appeared, in the right light we see the wall wasn't initially a blank surface. Some tagging was already there. And it was then covered up — by the black spraypaint of a graffiti writer, not by the buffing paint roller of a council worker: We can also begin to recognise the other patterns of an artist — their general aesthetics, character and writing styles, colour palette, tone, sensibility, preferred themes, and favourite subject matters. In the case of the Orange Order rat, to my eyes and mind, all the elements referred to above immediately point to Ban ksy. I see the presence of no red flag indicating otherwise. __________ At the risk of stating the obvious, training one's eye is critical for any art collector. Time is needed to really look at, pay attention to, and think about artwork. Those who lack a good eye are at a clear disadvantage. Among other things, they're more vulnerable to making poor buying decisions that involve bad art or counterfeit art. __________ The type of person none of us should want to become or buy from is Robin Barton, a.k.a. Bankrobber. Here is an individual with something like two decades in the business of dealing, especially in Ban ksys. Yet despite this extensive experience, he still isn't observant enough to immediately spot an obviously-fake Ban ksy street piece. So convinced was he about its genuineness that he was willing to stake his reputation and pay £250,000 for it on national television. Barton *: "[...] I stand by the fact that until someone proves it is not Banksy it remains Banksy."Now, apart from delusional wishful thinkers and/or the stupid, who actually justifies a very expensive purchase on such a logically‑flawed basis? Baffling. Similar to me saying, "[...] I stand by the fact that until someone proves the painting I found in the skip is not a Vermeer, it remains a Vermeer."My sympathies go to Barton's clients. They're the real dupes to feel sorry for — the ones actually paying money to an impostor who pretends to know what he's doing. It makes me wince.
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met
Junior Member
Posts • 2,782
Likes • 6,706
June 2009
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Banksy Show • Cut & Run • Glasgow , by met on Jun 22, 2023 17:35:27 GMT 1, Yikes. For someone that analyses art so much it's crazy how far off the mark you are. Save your £500 please. I remain pretty much doubt-free with my Ban ksy attribution — so we shall have to respectfully disagree on this occasion. If you're willing to put a pound fiver on the table, let me know. Hopefully, we'll receive an authoritative answer one way or the other in the coming days or weeks. I would gladly accept that bet sir.
Alright, slevin, then we have our own gentlemen's bet.
For the sake of consistency, I will offer you the same terms as for minibear:
And so, even if no artist credibly claims the Orange Order rat by 28 August 2023, and we're then left in a position of limbo/ambiguity, I'll accept that as a loss on my part and fork out £500.
Likewise if Banksy actually claims the piece, but only does so after 28 August.
This sudden financial exposure has left me curiously invigorated. I now feel like running a few laps, and starting conversations with random strangers at the supermarket.
Yikes. For someone that analyses art so much it's crazy how far off the mark you are. Save your £500 please. I remain pretty much doubt-free with my Ban ksy attribution — so we shall have to respectfully disagree on this occasion. If you're willing to put a pound fiver on the table, let me know. Hopefully, we'll receive an authoritative answer one way or the other in the coming days or weeks. I would gladly accept that bet sir. Alright, slevin, then we have our own gentlemen's bet. For the sake of consistency, I will offer you the same terms as for minibear: And so, even if no artist credibly claims the Orange Order rat by 28 August 2023, and we're then left in a position of limbo/ambiguity, I'll accept that as a loss on my part and fork out £500. Likewise if Ban ksy actually claims the piece, but only does so after 28 August. This sudden financial exposure has left me curiously invigorated. I now feel like running a few laps, and starting conversations with random strangers at the supermarket.
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met
Junior Member
Posts • 2,782
Likes • 6,706
June 2009
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Banksy Show • Cut & Run • Glasgow , by met on Jun 22, 2023 0:53:09 GMT 1, can anyone take this bet? Just asking... If you have a spare fiver, minibear, then okay — let's gamble, subject to there being a future public confirmation from an authoritative source. £5 vs £500. You have my word that I'm good for it. But after you and slevin, for financial reasons I'm afraid I must now close my bet offer to the remainder of the fo rum. It's too good the odds to say no. If it is Banksy, can we assume this bet will conclude when the exhibition closes? He would surely take credit for it by then if it's his.I'm running a charity donation entry competition on another thread to get cost price Ban ksy exhibition merchandise. I'd happily say that if I win the winnings should be paid to whichever charity I've landed on for that.
Making the end of the Cut & Run Glasgow exhibition (28 August 2023) our cut-off date is a very good idea.
But given that silence isn't proof of anything, it would of course be preferable if an individual (whoever they may be) publicly claimed attribution for the Orange Order rat — and we both agreed in good faith that their claim was credible.
That said, if the final outcome were silence, the ambiguity would be most unsatisfying for everybody. In this instance, I am therefore okay with accepting a position of disadvantage:
So let's just say that, if Banksy doesn't publicly claim the rat as his own by 28 August, I lose the bet and owe either you or your choice of charity £500.
can anyone take this bet? Just asking... If you have a spare fiver, minibear, then okay — let's gamble, subject to there being a future public confirmation from an authoritative source. £5 vs £500. You have my word that I'm good for it. But after you and slevin, for financial reasons I'm afraid I must now close my bet offer to the remainder of the fo rum. It's too good the odds to say no. If it is Banksy, can we assume this bet will conclude when the exhibition closes? He would surely take credit for it by then if it's his.I'm running a charity donation entry competition on another thread to get cost price Ban ksy exhibition merchandise. I'd happily say that if I win the winnings should be paid to whichever charity I've landed on for that. Making the end of the Cut & Run Glasgow exhibition (28 August 2023) our cut-off date is a very good idea. But given that silence isn't proof of anything, it would of course be preferable if an individual (whoever they may be) publicly claimed attribution for the Orange Order rat — and we both agreed in good faith that their claim was credible. That said, if the final outcome were silence, the ambiguity would be most unsatisfying for everybody. In this instance, I am therefore okay with accepting a position of disadvantage: So let's just say that, if Ban ksy doesn't publicly claim the rat as his own by 28 August, I lose the bet and owe either you or your choice of charity £500.
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met
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Banksy Show • Cut & Run • Glasgow , by met on Jun 21, 2023 23:22:42 GMT 1, I remain pretty much doubt-free with my Ban ksy attribution — so we shall have to respectfully disagree on this occasion. If you're willing to put a pound fiver on the table, let me know. Hopefully, we'll receive an authoritative answer one way or the other in the coming days or weeks. can anyone take this bet? Just asking...
If you have a spare fiver, minibear, then okay — let's gamble, subject to there being a future public confirmation from an authoritative source.
£5 vs £500.
You have my word that I'm good for it.
But after you and slevin, for financial reasons I'm afraid I must now close my bet offer to the remainder of the forum.
I remain pretty much doubt-free with my Ban ksy attribution — so we shall have to respectfully disagree on this occasion. If you're willing to put a pound fiver on the table, let me know. Hopefully, we'll receive an authoritative answer one way or the other in the coming days or weeks. can anyone take this bet? Just asking... If you have a spare fiver, minibear, then okay — let's gamble, subject to there being a future public confirmation from an authoritative source. £5 vs £500. You have my word that I'm good for it. But after you and slevin, for financial reasons I'm afraid I must now close my bet offer to the remainder of the fo rum.
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Banksy Show • Cut & Run • Glasgow , by met on Jun 21, 2023 22:48:25 GMT 1, He just sent this. Definitely legit.Although I try to avoid categorical references like "definitely" or "100%", there is no reasonable doubt in my mind that this work is by Ban ksy. In betting terms, I would be confident enough to bet £500 that it's authentic, and to offer 100 to 1 odds. Leaving aside the concept and highly-charged political theme, one just has to look at the level of detail, the calibre of stencils used, and the general execution. Among other things, consider also the handstyle of the text, shading, and use of multi-tone colouring for the rat — the latter being consistent with the artist's technically-more-advanced style of recent years. Yikes. For someone that analyses art so much it's crazy how far off the mark you are. Save your £500 please.
I remain pretty much doubt-free with my Banksy attribution — so we shall have to respectfully disagree on this occasion.
If you're willing to put a pound fiver on the table, let me know. Hopefully, we'll receive an authoritative answer one way or the other in the coming days or weeks.
He just sent this. Definitely legit.Although I try to avoid categorical references like "definitely" or "100%", there is no reasonable doubt in my mind that this work is by Ban ksy. In betting terms, I would be confident enough to bet £500 that it's authentic, and to offer 100 to 1 odds. Leaving aside the concept and highly-charged political theme, one just has to look at the level of detail, the calibre of stencils used, and the general execution. Among other things, consider also the handstyle of the text, shading, and use of multi-tone colouring for the rat — the latter being consistent with the artist's technically-more-advanced style of recent years. Yikes. For someone that analyses art so much it's crazy how far off the mark you are. Save your £500 please. I remain pretty much doubt-free with my Ban ksy attribution — so we shall have to respectfully disagree on this occasion. If you're willing to put a pound fiver on the table, let me know. Hopefully, we'll receive an authoritative answer one way or the other in the coming days or weeks.
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met
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Banksy Show • Cut & Run • Glasgow , by met on Jun 21, 2023 22:10:00 GMT 1, If: (a) your very starting point is a third party's initial misunderstanding about an artwork, because they hadn't yet read the accompanying label; and (b) you then post as if to suggest, "The artist is lying to us! And I can prove it to all of you! Just look, look here — look at my evidence!", how much value do you feel such a post adds to the discussion? The vest is published in the media as "Stormzy's vest" and it once again shows that the whole narrative around Banksy is twisted. Also , you seem such a professional in calling out frauds with your long ass drivel, but you can't prove that the shredder girl was painted in 2006. I guess calling the backdated fraud out doesn't suit your own wallet. But ignoring it takes away any of your so called credibility.
If you are referring to the Girl and Balloon canvas that was half‑shredded during the Sotheby's London evening sale in 2018, of course it wasn't painted in 2006.
Everything leading up to the execution of that prank, from the faux ornate frame to the consignor and original accompanying paperwork, was pure misdirection. And beautifully-executed misdirection, for that matter. Like a magician's sleight of hand.
The fact you remain focused on the clearly‑false date of 2006 suggests you don't understand this was an art‑world lark.
And you're confusing that with fraud. This in itself is regrettable, since everyone can benefit from having a bit of humour in their lives. But it is more difficult if they're unable to distinguish joking from seriousness.
The Sotheby's sale was also a performance art and conceptual masterstroke — which led to the creation of an entirely new work during a live auction. Unprecedented.
So if you cannot appreciate why the physical result, Love Is In The Bin (2018), is one of the 21st century's most important works of contemporary art, that is unfortunate for you.
Thankfully, the winning bidder understood the joke, as well as the art‑historical significance of the piece she happily purchased (albeit before reselling it at Sotheby's in 2021 for a very tidy profit).
If: (a) your very starting point is a third party's initial misunderstanding about an artwork, because they hadn't yet read the accompanying label; and (b) you then post as if to suggest, "The artist is lying to us! And I can prove it to all of you! Just look, look here — look at my evidence!", how much value do you feel such a post adds to the discussion? The vest is published in the media as "Stormzy's vest" and it once again shows that the whole narrative around Banksy is twisted. Also , you seem such a professional in calling out frauds with your long ass drivel, but you can't prove that the shredder girl was painted in 2006. I guess calling the backdated fraud out doesn't suit your own wallet. But ignoring it takes away any of your so called credibility. If you are referring to the Girl and Balloon canvas that was half‑shredded during the So theby's Lon don evening sale in 2018, of course it wasn't painted in 2006. Everything leading up to the execution of that prank, from the faux ornate frame to the consignor and original accompanying paperwork, was pure misdirection. And beautifully-executed misdirection, for that matter. Like a magician's sleight of hand. The fact you remain focused on the clearly‑false date of 2006 suggests you don't understand this was an art‑world lark. And you're confusing that with fraud. This in itself is regrettable, since everyone can benefit from having a bit of humour in their lives. But it is more difficult if they're unable to distinguish joking from seriousness. The So theby's sale was also a performance art and conceptual masterstroke — which led to the creation of an entirely new work during a live auction. Unprecedented. So if you cannot appreciate why the physical result, Love Is In The Bin (2018), is one of the 21st century's most important works of contemporary art, that is unfortunate for you. Thankfully, the winning bidder understood the joke, as well as the art‑historical significance of the piece she happily purchased (albeit before reselling it at So theby's in 2021 for a very tidy profit).
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met
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Banksy Show • Cut & Run • Glasgow , by met on Jun 21, 2023 20:13:35 GMT 1, The vest looks about as much like Stormzy's vest as the shredder girl looked like a 2006 😂 It's the prototype. He didn't like the blue as it seemed "too patriotic" - or something to that effect. Well then it's not Stormzy's vest, is it ?
If:
(a) your very starting point is a third party's initial misunderstanding about an artwork, because they hadn't yet read the accompanying label; and
(b) you then post as if to suggest, "The artist is lying to us! And I can prove it to all of you! Just look, look here — look at my evidence!",
how much value do you feel such a post adds to the discussion?
The vest looks about as much like Stormzy's vest as the shredder girl looked like a 2006 😂 It's the prototype. He didn't like the blue as it seemed "too patriotic" - or something to that effect. Well then it's not Stormzy's vest, is it ? If: (a) your very starting point is a third party's initial misunderstanding about an artwork, because they hadn't yet read the accompanying label; and (b) you then post as if to suggest, "The artist is lying to us! And I can prove it to all of you! Just look, look here — look at my evidence!", how much value do you feel such a post adds to the discussion?
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Banksy Show • Cut & Run • Glasgow , by met on Jun 21, 2023 15:17:38 GMT 1, He just sent this. Definitely legit.
Although I try to avoid categorical references like "definitely" or "100%", there is no reasonable doubt in my mind that this work is by Banksy.
In betting terms, I would be confident enough to bet £500 that it's authentic, and to offer 100 to 1 odds.
Leaving aside the concept and highly-charged political theme, one just has to look at the level of detail, the calibre of stencils used, and the general execution.
Among other things, consider also the handstyle of the text, shading, and use of multi-tone colouring for the rat — the latter being consistent with the artist's technically-more-advanced style of recent years.
He just sent this. Definitely legit.Although I try to avoid categorical references like "definitely" or "100%", there is no reasonable doubt in my mind that this work is by Ban ksy. In betting terms, I would be confident enough to bet £500 that it's authentic, and to offer 100 to 1 odds. Leaving aside the concept and highly-charged political theme, one just has to look at the level of detail, the calibre of stencils used, and the general execution. Among other things, consider also the handstyle of the text, shading, and use of multi-tone colouring for the rat — the latter being consistent with the artist's technically-more-advanced style of recent years.
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met
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June 2009
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"Ode to Banksy" limited edition sculpture, by met on Jun 16, 2023 19:12:26 GMT 1, I. Walen's "ODE TO BANKSY" Available today at 16:00 GMT / 08:00 PST on: www.orange-gallery.comUnique artist proofs in various colors and two limited editions. #beethoven #streetart #urbanart #popart #arttoy #arttoys #iskanderwalen #iwalen #designertoys #collectible #vinyltoys #stormzy #banksy #limitededition #glastonbury #stabvest #bulletproof #graffiti #graffitiart #stencilart
I'll preface this post by mentioning I watched your unpackaging video for the Invader 3D Little Big Space sculpture.
You came across to me as calm yet enthusiastic. As a thoroughly pleasant and engaging chap. Someone with whom I would willingly share a few drinks.
That said, I also wince whenever members here support an artist on the basis that they're "a great guy". Because it conflates two separate things.
The personality traits of an individual have nothing to do with the calibre of the artwork they produce.
__________
Regarding this series of sculptures, I myself am not a fan.
First, the name of the series just seems fawning, and not in an amusing way.
But for the most part, my dislike is down to the artistic idea. It feels weak and random.
There are insufficient ties of interest between:
(a) a particular 18th‑19th century German composer on the one hand; and
(b) Banksy, Stormzy, Glastonbury, body armour, John Bull Britishness, and/or the Union Jack on the other hand.
The connections you've made, relating to rebelliousness and music, aren't strong enough to offer real conceptual coherence.
__________
What I would also criticise with one of the sculptures, Ode to Banksy (Triple Vicious), is the historical revisionism:
Why change the t‑shirt worn by Sid Vicious, as originally photographed by Steve Emberton?
However misguided or cretinous it may have been, even at the time in 1978, the swastika was the very point of that t‑shirt.
The intention was to shock, provoke and offend.
Changing it today to a prohibition sign or 'No' symbol is like replacing the text of a Seditionaries DESTROY shirt to "Peace & Love".
__________
I hope the candour and substance of my feedback will be of some assistance.
The intention isn't to dispirit, but to encourage an upping of your game in future projects.
Every artist should in my book ensure their social network includes a handful of friendly adversaries and contrarians.
To surround oneself with sycophants and yes‑men is tantamount to intellectual/spiritual death.
Good luck going forward.
I. Walen's "ODE TO BANKSY" Available today at 16:00 GMT / 08:00 PST on: www.orange-gallery.comUnique artist proofs in various colors and two limited editions. #beethoven #streetart #urbanart #popart #arttoy #arttoys #iskanderwalen #iwalen #designertoys #collectible #vinyltoys #stormzy #banksy #limitededition #glastonbury #stabvest #bulletproof #graffiti #graffitiart #stencilart I'll preface this post by mentioning I watched your unpackaging video for the Inv ader 3D Little Big Space sculpture. You came across to me as calm yet enthusiastic. As a thoroughly pleasant and engaging chap. Someone with whom I would willingly share a few drinks. That said, I also wince whenever members here support an artist on the basis that they're "a great guy". Because it conflates two separate things. The personality traits of an individual have nothing to do with the calibre of the artwork they produce. __________ Regarding this series of sculptures, I myself am not a fan. First, the name of the series just seems fawning, and not in an amusing way. But for the most part, my dislike is down to the artistic idea. It feels weak and random. There are insufficient ties of interest between: (a) a particular 18th‑19th century German composer on the one hand; and (b) Ban ksy, Stormzy, Glast onbury, body armour, John Bull Britishness, and/or the Union Jack on the other hand. The connections you've made, relating to rebelliousness and music, aren't strong enough to offer real conceptual coherence. __________ What I would also criticise with one of the sculptures, Ode to Banksy (Triple Vicious), is the historical revisionism: Why change the t‑shirt worn by Sid Vicious, as originally photographed by Steve Emberton? However misguided or cretinous it may have been, even at the time in 1978, the swastika was the very point of that t‑shirt. The intention was to shock, provoke and offend. Changing it today to a prohibition sign or 'No' symbol is like replacing the text of a Seditionaries DESTROY shirt to "Peace & Love". __________ I hope the candour and substance of my feedback will be of some assistance. The intention isn't to dispirit, but to encourage an upping of your game in future projects. Every artist should in my book ensure their social network includes a handful of friendly adversaries and contrarians. To surround oneself with sycophants and yes‑men is tantamount to intellectual/spiritual death. Good luck going forward.
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Yuan Fang Canvas, by met on Jun 14, 2023 19:13:29 GMT 1, Met, you are right. I agree. That's sorta why i said i was being lame even responding. Thanks for pointing that out. As yourself, I have also been on here a long time. So I get it. However, I do take art serious and have been collecting and studying art for a very long time. So when people complain because they aren't able to window shop because I didn't put the exact dimensions, year, image, etc, its just annoying. Nonetheless you are 1000% right and I respect you calling me out for being childish. I understand nobokov was just making light of a sales thread that went awry. My apologies to anyone who got offended. and to take this back to the initial post: the work is still available. midsize means midsize, which to any art collector and anyone who knows this artists work means like 4x3ft range, not the large scale works she has been making. the work is from 2022. and when I said fair and realistic, I mean I am not trying to get the highest price based on one auction result or be a broker adding 20k extra when its not my work. again, my apologies and I have no problem buying everyone a pint. PS: i actually love a good ribbing and sarcasm. everyone have a nice day.
Many thanks for the pleasant follow-up, rizza79.
I appreciate your poised tone as well. It makes a welcome contrast to the drama‑queen hysterics we occasionally witness when a member with a chip on their shoulder feels (a) they have been slighted, or (b) that something/someone they have a vested interest in has been criticised or otherwise undermined.
The individuals who command respect are those who can engage in a good debate or argument — calmly, and without feeling any need to resort to ad hominems (use of the latter often being a default tactic for the impotent, the shrieking wounded, and those incapable of defending their positions rationally).
__________
Yuan Fang is actually an artist whose work I have recently been keeping a casual eye on.
In interviews, she has mentioned the past or current influences of Lee Krasner and Cecily Brown.
I do see connections with some pieces by those two — especially by the former, when I think of Krasner's organic, fleshy paintings from around the time of Pollock's death, like Birth (1956) and Embrace (1956).
But the clearer allusions picked up by my own eye are to Willem de Kooning.
And Francis Bacon even more so.
Just as I do with many other artists, I've sometimes tried to reverse‑engineer Fang's work in my head, in an effort to ascertain her techniques and process.
I have spent time also trying to identify exactly why and how her nonrepresentational paintings are often so reminiscent of the abstracted figuration of Bacon.
Along with Fang's choice of palette and composition, an obvious link to Bacon is the fluidity and movement of her curves and swirls. Likewise with the heavy outer linework of those features, along with the manner in which her colours are sometimes combined and merged.
While more tenuous, Fang's paintings can even remind me of Kenny Scharf, and illustrations by Gerald Scarfe from Pink Floyd – The Wall.
__________
In case they might be of interest to other forum members, below are three of Fang's larger‑scale and more Bacon‑esque works.
Marching 03 (2022), acrylic on canvas, 72 x 60 inches
Marching 01 (2022), acrylic on canvas, 72 x 60 inches
Bridging 03 (2022), acrylic on canvas, 78 x 95 inches
__________
All the best with your sale.
Met, you are right. I agree. That's sorta why i said i was being lame even responding. Thanks for pointing that out. As yourself, I have also been on here a long time. So I get it. However, I do take art serious and have been collecting and studying art for a very long time. So when people complain because they aren't able to window shop because I didn't put the exact dimensions, year, image, etc, its just annoying. Nonetheless you are 1000% right and I respect you calling me out for being childish. I understand nobokov was just making light of a sales thread that went awry. My apologies to anyone who got offended. and to take this back to the initial post: the work is still available. midsize means midsize, which to any art collector and anyone who knows this artists work means like 4x3ft range, not the large scale works she has been making. the work is from 2022. and when I said fair and realistic, I mean I am not trying to get the highest price based on one auction result or be a broker adding 20k extra when its not my work. again, my apologies and I have no problem buying everyone a pint. PS: i actually love a good ribbing and sarcasm. everyone have a nice day. Many thanks for the pleasant follow-up, rizza79. I appreciate your poised tone as well. It makes a welcome contrast to the drama‑queen hysterics we occasionally witness when a member with a chip on their shoulder feels (a) they have been slighted, or (b) that something/someone they have a vested interest in has been criticised or otherwise undermined. The individuals who command respect are those who can engage in a good debate or argument — calmly, and without feeling any need to resort to ad hominems (use of the latter often being a default tactic for the impotent, the shrieking wounded, and those incapable of defending their positions rationally). __________ Yuan Fang is actually an artist whose work I have recently been keeping a casual eye on. In interviews, she has mentioned the past or current influences of Lee Krasner and Cecily Brown. I do see connections with some pieces by those two — especially by the former, when I think of Krasner's organic, fleshy paintings from around the time of Pollock's death, like Birth (1956) and Embrace (1956). But the clearer allusions picked up by my own eye are to Willem de Kooning. And Francis Bacon even more so. Just as I do with many other artists, I've sometimes tried to reverse‑engineer Fang's work in my head, in an effort to ascertain her techniques and process. I have spent time also trying to identify exactly why and how her nonrepresentational paintings are often so reminiscent of the abstracted figuration of Bacon. Along with Fang's choice of palette and composition, an obvious link to Bacon is the fluidity and movement of her curves and swirls. Likewise with the heavy outer linework of those features, along with the manner in which her colours are sometimes combined and merged. While more tenuous, Fang's paintings can even remind me of Kenny Scharf, and illustrations by Gerald Scarfe from Pink Floyd – The Wall. __________ In case they might be of interest to other fo rum members, below are three of Fang's larger‑scale and more Bacon‑esque works. Marching 03 (2022), acrylic on canvas, 72 x 60 inchesMarching 01 (2022), acrylic on canvas, 72 x 60 inchesBridging 03 (2022), acrylic on canvas, 78 x 95 inches__________ All the best with your sale.
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Yuan Fang Canvas, by met on Jun 13, 2023 18:01:40 GMT 1, motivated to sell a midsize Yuan Fang canvas. Willing to be fair with pricing for painless quick deal. very realistic. dm for information.
Unmotivated buyer to buy canvas. Willing to gouge seller for painful transaction. so dreamy. don't want to dm for mo info.
you guys must all really be bored or really don't know much about anything outside this forum. thanks for the advice and kind words though. I mean 4,485 posts in 7 years pretty much sums your life up so the fact that I'm even engaging is lame, but this fo rum used to be cool and there were actually real collectors on here.
Come on now, rizza79.
Try stepping a few paces away, getting some emotional distance, and having another look.
At least from where I'm standing, nobokov's post is mildly amusing. And based on their previous form, no doubt it was intended to be.
Take it on the chin as good-natured ribbing. Just as I would if the two of us were sharing a pint together and you were mocking my new shoes. Or my taste in music. One simply rolls with the punches and laughs along.
Piss-taking is at the very heart of an art movement many of us here truly love. And when used among ourselves, it should therefore be embraced with warmth and humour, not reacted to with defensiveness.
In fact, we could probably use far more piss-takers and lampooners on this message board.
I would posit that the healthiest position to take — especially with online communications, where misunderstandings and unnecessary escalations so often occur — is to never assume malice or negative intent.
Let's be generous instead, by giving our interlocutors the benefit of the doubt.
It's much more fun and enjoyable that way. And less stressful.
Water off a duck's back.
motivated to sell a midsize Yuan Fang canvas. Willing to be fair with pricing for painless quick deal. very realistic. dm for information. Unmotivated buyer to buy canvas. Willing to gouge seller for painful transaction. so dreamy. don't want to dm for mo info. you guys must all really be bored or really don't know much about anything outside this forum. thanks for the advice and kind words though. I mean 4,485 posts in 7 years pretty much sums your life up so the fact that I'm even engaging is lame, but this fo rum used to be cool and there were actually real collectors on here. Come on now, rizza79. Try stepping a few paces away, getting some emotional distance, and having another look. At least from where I'm standing, nobokov's post is mildly amusing. And based on their previous form, no doubt it was intended to be. Take it on the chin as good-natured ribbing. Just as I would if the two of us were sharing a pint together and you were mocking my new shoes. Or my taste in music. One simply rolls with the punches and laughs along. Piss-taking is at the very heart of an art movement many of us here truly love. And when used among ourselves, it should therefore be embraced with warmth and humour, not reacted to with defensiveness. In fact, we could probably use far more piss-takers and lampooners on this message board. I would posit that the healthiest position to take — especially with online communications, where misunderstandings and unnecessary escalations so often occur — is to never assume malice or negative intent. Let's be generous instead, by giving our interlocutors the benefit of the doubt. It's much more fun and enjoyable that way. And less stressful. Water off a duck's back.
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Give a shit tshirt etc Banksy invader PINS Shrigley records, by met on Jun 11, 2023 23:25:53 GMT 1, Ok, so went off on the bike in the scorching heat and grabbed some pics for everyone. (wasnt that bad, its an ebike so i did sod all.) We have quite the list of pieces. As im selling for my mates wife again, i dont get final say on offers but can pass them on. Starting with the radar rats Orange on white, tiny corner dink bottom left. £1000 Red on white, mint £800 Red on brown, mint £1300 Pink on white, mint £2300 Red on grey, slight tear to bottom seam, can be seen in image. £500 Laugh now silver, tiny tiny dink to bottom right corner. £1400 Laugh now bronze, tiny dink to bottom right of reverse. £1700 Laugh now olive, tiny dink to bottom right corner of reverse. £1800 Rebtuz Presents Birthdays EP, Mint £250 Talib Kweli + Madlib Liberation still sealed. (not sure if its the repress the original or the white repress! but not much in it) £15 [...]
Are people really still paying thousands of pounds for fake Banksy items?!
Not too sure if they still are.
But even if not, it remains unfortunate that they ever were.
1. In large part, this will be down to market ignorance.
There are substantial numbers of clueless enthusiasts who believe the use of Banksy's artwork was authorised. In other words, that these records are genuine Banksy collectibles, and therefore worth the investment of tens, or hundreds, or even thousands of pounds.
In fact, the numbers of clueless enthusiasts, among both private collectors and art‑world professionals, are such that they long‑ago reached a critical mass — a critical mass of dupes and fools which allowed for a blind leading the blind scenario to continue to perpetuate itself.
Google searches will reveal the sheer scale of misattributions and other misinformation, including on auction house websites, about these items that feature stolen imagery.
2. An additional explanation would be market cynicism.
Here, we have a smaller proportion of individuals who actually are informed, as opposed to clueless. They are well aware that the Banksy imagery on these records was stolen. But they don't really care.
Presumably, this unscrupulous stance will in many cases be driven by self‑interest and greed.
Clearly, there are serious profits to be made in selling or reselling fakes — especially since they are frequently mistaken as authentic by the clueless enthusiasts referred to in point 1.
3. This specific part of the Banksy-ephemera market seems to me like a house of cards just waiting to collapse.
Frankly, a single high-profile article, or a one‑liner from the artist himself, could easily become the catalyst for such a collapse.
__________
A separate issue I've previously raised:
Is it appropriate to allow the sale of fakes on this forum?
My own position is straightforward. It is based on a simple premise:
Stealing from artists is wrong.
Now, the above viewpoint does not strike me as being especially contentious.
[Nor does it seem contentious when, for the very same reason, Andrew Gallagher / Full Colour Black / Brandalised are almost universally panned for their own thieving of Banksy images.]
And if this viewpoint is accepted by others here as a reasonable position of principle and integrity, what naturally follows is that the Urban Art Association should also cease allowing itself to be used as a platform for the sale of fakes, forgeries and counterfeits.
This, for at least a few reasons:
(i) the sale of fakes is not a great look for an art forum;
(ii) such sales cause potential confusion among less-knowledgeable members, which could lead to those members making expensive purchase mistakes based on false assumptions of authenticity; and
(iii) such sales serve to normalise and arguably legitimise thieving from artists.
I suspect the only ones who would take issue with this position are those who are conflicted, whose collections include fakes, and who therefore have a vested interest in an ongoing marketplace for fakes.
Ok, so went off on the bike in the scorching heat and grabbed some pics for everyone. (wasnt that bad, its an ebike so i did sod all.) We have quite the list of pieces. As im selling for my mates wife again, i dont get final say on offers but can pass them on. Starting with the radar rats Orange on white, tiny corner dink bottom left. £1000 Red on white, mint £800 Red on brown, mint £1300 Pink on white, mint £2300 Red on grey, slight tear to bottom seam, can be seen in image. £500 Laugh now silver, tiny tiny dink to bottom right corner. £1400 Laugh now bronze, tiny dink to bottom right of reverse. £1700 Laugh now olive, tiny dink to bottom right corner of reverse. £1800 Rebtuz Presents Birthdays EP, Mint £250 Talib Kweli + Madlib Liberation still sealed. (not sure if its the repress the original or the white repress! but not much in it) £15 [...] Are people really still paying thousands of pounds for fake Banksy items?! Not too sure if they still are. But even if not, it remains unfortunate that they ever were. 1. In large part, this will be down to market ignorance. There are substantial numbers of clueless enthusiasts who believe the use of Ban ksy's artwork was authorised. In other words, that these records are genuine Ban ksy collectibles, and therefore worth the investment of tens, or hundreds, or even thousands of pounds. In fact, the numbers of clueless enthusiasts, among both private collectors and art‑world professionals, are such that they long‑ago reached a critical mass — a critical mass of dupes and fools which allowed for a blind leading the blind scenario to continue to perpetuate itself. Google searches will reveal the sheer scale of misattributions and other misinformation, including on auction house websites, about these items that feature stolen imagery. 2. An additional explanation would be market cynicism. Here, we have a smaller proportion of individuals who actually are informed, as opposed to clueless. They are well aware that the Ban ksy imagery on these records was stolen. But they don't really care. Presumably, this unscrupulous stance will in many cases be driven by self‑interest and greed. Clearly, there are serious profits to be made in selling or reselling fakes — especially since they are frequently mistaken as authentic by the clueless enthusiasts referred to in point 1. 3. This specific part of the Ban ksy-ephemera market seems to me like a house of cards just waiting to collapse. Frankly, a single high-profile article, or a one‑liner from the artist himself, could easily become the catalyst for such a collapse. __________ A separate issue I've previously raised: Is it appropriate to allow the sale of fakes on this forum?My own position is straightforward. It is based on a simple premise: Stealing from artists is wrong.Now, the above viewpoint does not strike me as being especially contentious. [Nor does it seem contentious when, for the very same reason, Andrew Gallagher / Full Colour Black / Brandalised are almost universally panned for their own thieving of Banksy images.]And if this viewpoint is accepted by others here as a reasonable position of principle and integrity, what naturally follows is that the Ur ban Art Association should also cease allowing itself to be used as a platform for the sale of fakes, forgeries and counterfeits. This, for at least a few reasons: (i) the sale of fakes is not a great look for an art forum; (ii) such sales cause potential confusion among less-knowledgeable members, which could lead to those members making expensive purchase mistakes based on false assumptions of authenticity; and (iii) such sales serve to normalise and arguably legitimise thieving from artists. I suspect the only ones who would take issue with this position are those who are conflicted, whose collections include fakes, and who therefore have a vested interest in an ongoing marketplace for fakes.
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met
Junior Member
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June 2009
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david-shrigley-this-is-not-what-i-wanted-yoga-mat-2021, by met on Jun 11, 2023 21:59:19 GMT 1, I was tempted by one of these. While this is legitimate, valid, and in many ways, even allowed, I can't help but feel though that "art yoga mats" are a shonky first step towards enlightenment and oneness. I do like it though. And if I felt like sharing a community hall with people I dislike, all farting and sweating, I would probably do it on a Shrigley yoga mat.
After a hiatus of close to three years, it is good to see you back again, drip.
Your warmth, wit and whimsy were missed.
I was tempted by one of these. While this is legitimate, valid, and in many ways, even allowed, I can't help but feel though that "art yoga mats" are a shonky first step towards enlightenment and oneness. I do like it though. And if I felt like sharing a community hall with people I dislike, all farting and sweating, I would probably do it on a Shrigley yoga mat. After a hiatus of close to three years, it is good to see you back again, drip. Your warmth, wit and whimsy were missed.
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met
Junior Member
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June 2009
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Javier Calleja 🇪🇸 Málaga, Spain • Drawings • Sculture, by met on Jun 7, 2023 19:00:44 GMT 1, A lot of people seem to be into Javier Calleja's work. I have a bit of a hard time understanding, which probably means it's simply not my taste. Taste can be different and I think that's totally fine. I'm nevertheless curious: What attracts you to these? And where do you hang them?
Javier Calleja is an amazing artist who does characters with big heads and like big eyes👁️👁️ that are so cute😊. Javier Calleja is awesomely tallented and his characters are really cute😊 with big eyes👁️👁️ and stuff. Its adorable like big babies are👶🏻🍼🤡. Javier Calleja is amazingly popular because everybody love his cute😊 style.His art always sells for a lot of money. Javier Calleja will always be in demand and his prices will only go one way tot he moon!!! 🚀 🚀 🚀💦 🚑 Serious collectors know all this🍆😎. IYKYK. But I could care less about prices 💰irregardless because I'm never gonna sell.👊
When I show my Javier Calleja collection to friends 🐵🐷🦃🕷️🐬🐍🐀🐑🐑🐑🐡 they are stunned😮😮, like stunned into silence they are so amazed and stuff😲. I tell them to buy Javier Calleja art because his prices will only go one way adn tehy shouldn't miss the boat⛴️. Serious collectors know all this🍆😎. IYKYK. If you don't like it why even comment? Move on dude don't be jealous. Everybody ignore the haters because haters gonna hate.👉👌📿🙏🙏🙏
Here is my Javier Calleja sculptures they are awesomely cute😊 and limited edition museum quality.🔥🔥🔥 💉💪
Here is some rset of my awesome sculpture collection😍. Some even have moveable parts so there kinetic art. IYKYK.🔥🔥🔥😍😍😍💯
A lot of people seem to be into Javier Calleja's work. I have a bit of a hard time understanding, which probably means it's simply not my taste. Taste can be different and I think that's totally fine. I'm nevertheless curious: What attracts you to these? And where do you hang them? Javier Calleja is an amazing artist who does characters with big heads and like big eyes👁️👁️ that are so cute😊. Javier Calleja is awesomely tallented and his characters are really cute😊 with big eyes👁️👁️ and stuff. Its adorable like big babies are👶🏻🍼🤡. Javier Calleja is amazingly popular because everybody love his cute😊 style.His art always sells for a lot of money. Javier Calleja will always be in demand and his prices will only go one way tot he moon!!! 🚀 🚀 🚀💦 🚑 Serious collectors know all this🍆😎. IYKYK. But I could care less about prices 💰irregardless because I'm never gonna sell.👊 When I show my Javier Calleja collection to friends 🐵🐷🦃🕷️🐬🐍🐀🐑🐑🐑🐡 they are stunned😮😮, like stunned into silence they are so amazed and stuff😲. I tell them to buy Javier Calleja art because his prices will only go one way adn tehy shouldn't miss the boat⛴️. Serious collectors know all this🍆😎. IYKYK. If you don't like it why even comment? Move on dude don't be jealous. Everybody ignore the haters because haters gonna hate.👉👌📿🙏🙏🙏 Here is my Javier Call eja sculptures they are awesomely cute😊 and limited edition museum quality.🔥🔥🔥 💉💪 Here is some rset of my awesome sculpture collection😍. Some even have moveable parts so there kinetic art. IYKYK.🔥🔥🔥😍😍😍💯
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met
Junior Member
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June 2009
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Bast
May 30, 2023 16:51:22 GMT 1
Bast, by met on May 30, 2023 16:51:22 GMT 1, Some obvious BAST influences there (along with Matisse and other artists), to the point of arguably being derivative — but this work is by Joël Bigaignon. His recent show at All ouche Gallery was Slowlyness In Motion (15 December 2022–5 February 2023). Thanks, met! Did you see this episode too?
Not yet, but very much looking forward to it.
I was waiting for the final episode to be released, so I could then binge-watch the entire season.
Some obvious BAST influences there (along with Matisse and other artists), to the point of arguably being derivative — but this work is by Joël Bigaignon. His recent show at All ouche Gallery was Slowlyness In Motion (15 December 2022–5 February 2023). Thanks, met! Did you see this episode too? Not yet, but very much looking forward to it. I was waiting for the final episode to be released, so I could then binge-watch the entire season.
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met
Junior Member
Posts • 2,782
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June 2009
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Bast
May 30, 2023 16:46:17 GMT 1
Bast, by met on May 30, 2023 16:46:17 GMT 1, I watched the last episode of Succession last night and I noticed that there is a scene that takes place in Allouche Gallery in NYC. The artwork looks like Bäst, but maybe I am totally wrong. Can anyone confirm?
Some obvious BAST influences there (along with Matisse and other artists), to the point of arguably being derivative — but this work is by Joël Bigaignon.
His recent show at Allouche Gallery was Slowlyness In Motion (15 December 2022–5 February 2023).
I watched the last episode of Succession last night and I noticed that there is a scene that takes place in Allouche Gallery in NYC. The artwork looks like Bäst, but maybe I am totally wrong. Can anyone confirm? Some obvious BAST influences there (along with Matisse and other artists), to the point of arguably being derivative — but this work is by Joël Bigaignon. His recent show at All ouche Gallery was Slowlyness In Motion (15 December 2022–5 February 2023).
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met
Junior Member
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June 2009
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Ai Weiwei Avant Art Releases 2023, by met on May 19, 2023 23:40:38 GMT 1, This didn’t took very long … it’s a shame
There's a resale agreement on Human Flow isn't there? Yes. There is also the clause that these prints have to be offered to Avant Arte first before hitting secondary. Seems not everybody cares. As stated before in this thread, the question is if people will care but also if Avant Arte will take steps to ensure that these two clauses are kept. Personally I think Fair art should withdraw this from sale.
www.fairart.io/artworks/ai-weiwei/1358/human-flow/60877
It is a short‑termist approach by FairArt, perhaps suggesting inexperience by the owners or directors.
What this amounts to is the company knowingly facilitating a breach of contract between one of its consignors and Avant Arte.
Frankly, that isn't a great look.
__________
If I were heading a new platform for selling art, a primary concern would be public perception. I'd want the business viewed as being above‑board — one that operates with integrity.
What I would certainly wish to avoid encouraging (and worse, being seen to encourage) is unscrupulous behaviour by my own clients.
That would be shameful, both personally and professionally. But maybe also financially self-defeating in the long run.
It would prioritise immediate profit over market stature, which only makes commercial sense if running a fly‑by‑night enterprise or some other disreputable business.
__________
In case FairArt isn't too bothered about its reputation, the company and its shady consignor neverthless remain vulnerable to provisions of the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.
If it so wished, Avant Arte (or somebody acting on its behalf) could for example:
(i) purchase the Ai Weiwei print from FairArt;
(ii) match the edition number to the original buyer;
(iii) blacklist the original buyer (and perhaps "accidentally" disclose the identity of that buyer to other publishers or galleries); and
(iv) exercise their right to cancel their order up to 14 days after delivery of the print.
Now, what would be the likely outcome to this scenario?
ANSWER
(a) Original buyer: Screwed (arguably treated appropriately, with due contempt);
(b) FairArt: Reputation already tainted, but resources now also wasted (arguably treated appropriately);
(c) Avant Arte: Client list partly cleansed; and
(d) The art world generally: No significant change, although now less seedy to a miniscule degree.
__________
Hopefully, the policymakers at FairArt have already considered the above risk and fully thought it through.
But if not, then they possibly aren't the best candidates for their jobs.
This didn’t took very long … it’s a shame There's a resale agreement on Human Flow isn't there? Yes. There is also the clause that these prints have to be offered to Avant Arte first before hitting secondary. Seems not everybody cares. As stated before in this thread, the question is if people will care but also if Avant Arte will take steps to ensure that these two clauses are kept. Personally I think Fair art should withdraw this from sale. www.fairart.io/artworks/ai-weiwei/1358/human-flow/60877It is a short‑termist approach by FairArt, perhaps suggesting inexperience by the owners or directors. What this amounts to is the company knowingly facilitating a breach of contract between one of its consignors and Avant Arte. Frankly, that isn't a great look. __________ If I were heading a new platform for selling art, a primary concern would be public perception. I'd want the business viewed as being above‑board — one that operates with integrity. What I would certainly wish to avoid encouraging (and worse, being seen to encourage) is unscrupulous behaviour by my own clients. That would be shameful, both personally and professionally. But maybe also financially self-defeating in the long run. It would prioritise immediate profit over market stature, which only makes commercial sense if running a fly‑by‑night enterprise or some other disreputable business. __________ In case FairArt isn't too bothered about its reputation, the company and its shady consignor neverthless remain vulnerable to provisions of the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013. If it so wished, Avant Arte (or somebody acting on its behalf) could for example: (i) purchase the A i W eiw ei print from FairArt; (ii) match the edition number to the original buyer; (iii) blacklist the original buyer (and perhaps "accidentally" disclose the identity of that buyer to other publishers or galleries); and (iv) exercise their right to cancel their order up to 14 days after delivery of the print. Now, what would be the likely outcome to this scenario?ANSWER(a) Original buyer: Screwed (arguably treated appropriately, with due contempt); (b) FairArt: Reputation already tainted, but resources now also wasted (arguably treated appropriately); (c) Avant Arte: Client list partly cleansed; and (d) The art world generally: No significant change, although now less seedy to a miniscule degree. __________ Hopefully, the policymakers at FairArt have already considered the above risk and fully thought it through. But if not, then they possibly aren't the best candidates for their jobs.
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met
Junior Member
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June 2009
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FS: HF Unique Martin Whatson prints, by met on May 18, 2023 11:18:01 GMT 1, Hello, was recently laid-off from work and would sell the below unique Martin What son art prints. If interested please email me at tschotts@yahoo.com if interested and we can try to make a mutually beneficial sale. I thank you in advance for your interest. 1) The "Sailboat" was a hand done, #2/2, unique print made for a Goldmark Atelier gallery show. Comes with it's COA. Looking for around $7k. 2) The Martin What son "Toucan" is a beautiful, all hand tagged, unique print. Have the COA. Looking for around $4500.
I’m sorry (especially in your circumstances), but I feel it is in the best interest of the forum to share this communication from the Martin Whatson Facebook group issuing a warning about dealing with you. I don’t know the circumstances, but those in this group normally know what they are talking about.
Nicely done.
Leaving aside my dismissive views of the artist's work, and provided the Martin Whatson Facebook group warnings about "Todd" do relate to tschotts, then those warnings should certainly be borne in mind.
Regardless of the caveat emptor principle all buyers must heed, art sellers with integrity will be upfront about issues an average buyer wants to know about before proceeding with a purchase.
That will typically relate to matters including:
- provenance; - possible authenticity concerns; - condition (with the seller specifically pointing out areas of damage); and - any restoration work carried out (whether minor restoration such as the flattening of a print, or more serious repairs).
Silence from a seller, or any other failure to be forthcoming and candid in the full disclosure of such matters, must be a viewed as a red flag.
It is evidence — pointing to dishonest intent; of an aim to deceive; and of a disreputable character.
This in itself will also call into question the truthfulness of any information the seller actually has volunteered to potential buyers.
Hello, was recently laid-off from work and would sell the below unique Martin What son art prints. If interested please email me at tschotts@yahoo.com if interested and we can try to make a mutually beneficial sale. I thank you in advance for your interest. 1) The "Sailboat" was a hand done, #2/2, unique print made for a Goldmark Atelier gallery show. Comes with it's COA. Looking for around $7k. 2) The Martin What son "Toucan" is a beautiful, all hand tagged, unique print. Have the COA. Looking for around $4500. I’m sorry (especially in your circumstances), but I feel it is in the best interest of the forum to share this communication from the Martin Whatson Facebook group issuing a warning about dealing with you. I don’t know the circumstances, but those in this group normally know what they are talking about. Nicely done. Leaving aside my dismissive views of the artist's work, and provided the Martin What son Facebook group warnings about "Todd" do relate to tschotts, then those warnings should certainly be borne in mind. Regardless of the caveat emptor principle all buyers must heed, art sellers with integrity will be upfront about issues an average buyer wants to know about before proceeding with a purchase. That will typically relate to matters including: - provenance; - possible authenticity concerns; - condition (with the seller specifically pointing out areas of damage); and - any restoration work carried out (whether minor restoration such as the flattening of a print, or more serious repairs). Silence from a seller, or any other failure to be forthcoming and candid in the full disclosure of such matters, must be a viewed as a red flag. It is evidence — pointing to dishonest intent; of an aim to deceive; and of a disreputable character. This in itself will also call into question the truthfulness of any information the seller actually has volunteered to potential buyers.
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